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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#1351 King of the ES

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:06 PM

Now there's the issue - Kesler - the guy who scored 41 goals the year before, won the Selke.... the guy whose minutes, according to Gallagher and a whole gaggle of other halfwits, should have been given to the rookie?


Because Kesler was not performing to his 2010-11 level, and he has shown an inability to stay healthy (or at least refrain from telling everybody how hurt he is).

And it looks like it's time for another reminder that "the rookie" was 3rd in team goals, whilst centering the 3rd line and being given very few minutes.
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#1352 King of the ES

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:12 PM

And why all the bashing of Pahlsson? Why so much irrational, emotional, aggressiveness? Why so defensive when I suggest that Pahlsson was actually a better shutdown guy than people like you realized?


:lol:

Not irrational, not emotional, not aggressive. Just did not seem smart to me, at the time, to bring in a 35 year-old guy who was 3 years removed from an NHL playoff game and who was having an awful season.

I've got no issues with trading Hodgson at all. Trading him for Kassian was reasonable. 10 years later, my guess is that it'll be thought of as a loss, but I don't mind the gamble, given Kassian's potential payoff. I actually don't understand why more trades aren't made more frequently in the NHL - more hockey trades, not deadline salary dumps. It was a reasonable hockey trade to make. Jordan Schroeder is similar enough to Hodgson. Cody was certainly expendable - but at that time, it was not smart to move him and replace him with Pahlsson. Totally changed our team.
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#1353 sampy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:13 PM

Because Kesler was not performing to his 2010-11 level, and he has shown an inability to stay healthy (or at least refrain from telling everybody how hurt he is).

And it looks like it's time for another reminder that "the rookie" was 3rd in team goals, whilst centering the 3rd line and being given very few minutes.

Actually, Gillis said right after he traded Cody that his stats were inflated by the offensive situations he was put in to increase his trade value.
The trade would have been nice to do in summer as Cody may have helped more but there was a risk of the offer not being there

Edited by sampy, 20 November 2012 - 04:17 PM.

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#1354 Pears

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:21 PM

Because Kesler was not performing to his 2010-11 level, and he has shown an inability to stay healthy (or at least refrain from telling everybody how hurt he is).

So now you're saying Kesler was injured after saying he wasn't injured?
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1355 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:54 PM

Yes, that move was a clear fail.

Sami Pahlsson was an absolute disaster. "A legitimate shut down guy" - sure, if you're talking about the year 2007. He was not shutting anybody down on Columbus. He's a guy that had one foot into retirement since going to the BJs, and I would venture a guess that he wasn't too happy about being traded to the Canucks. He really added no value to our team, the 3rd line was no longer a scoring threat whatsoever, and opponents no longer had to concern themselves with 3 lines - just the top two.


Why wouldn't he be? even if he did have one foot into retirement/going to Europe, why wouldn't he want to have atleast one more legitimate shot at Lord Stanley while he is still here and able. He's still making the same money? It doesn't make sense.

Trading Hodgson for Kassian was a reasonable gamble to take, but the timing made no sense at all. Hodgson is clearly the better player today, and (IMO) likely will be over the course of their careers. For a Cup contending team, why on earth would you trade your 3rd leading goal scorer for a guy who's not even close to being at that stage of development, heading into the playoffs? If Kassian was available at the deadline, there's no reason to think that he also wouldn't be available at the draft, so, yes, this was a timing error on Mike Gillis' part.


Hodgson didn't want to be here, they had probably been trying to trade him sooner.

The Timing did make sense if you look at it like this:


They wanted to get a young player in return that was about at the same level as him, and as Gillis said, none that he would have traded Coho for were ever made avaliable, except Kassian, and how do you know he was avaliable right away. A prospect like that, I doubt he was made avaliable right there, Buffalo probably offered less, but at the end of the day they saw there major need for centermen, and stepped up and paid the price it would take in Kass. That would also explain why it took place later in the day. Then it also worked out timing wise that we were able to pick up another center, after all Gillis and the managment said they didn't feel our center ice position was strong enough coming into the day, so that is before they traded Coho.


Also Pahlsson did better than you give him credit for, he wasn't great in the playoffs but he was better than what Manny would have brought IMO and who wasn't bad in that series.
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#1356 King of the ES

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:21 PM

So now you're saying Kesler was injured after saying he wasn't injured?


Read the part in brackets.
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#1357 King of the ES

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:28 PM

Why wouldn't he be? even if he did have one foot into retirement/going to Europe, why wouldn't he want to have atleast one more legitimate shot at Lord Stanley while he is still here and able. He's still making the same money? It doesn't make sense.


Just speculation on my part, obviously, but he did win a Cup already in Anaheim.

The Timing did make sense if you look at it like this:

They wanted to get a young player in return that was about at the same level as him, and as Gillis said, none that he would have traded Coho for were ever made avaliable, except Kassian, and how do you know he was avaliable right away. A prospect like that, I doubt he was made avaliable right there, Buffalo probably offered less, but at the end of the day they saw there major need for centermen, and stepped up and paid the price it would take in Kass. That would also explain why it took place later in the day. Then it also worked out timing wise that we were able to pick up another center, after all Gillis and the managment said they didn't feel our center ice position was strong enough coming into the day, so that is before they traded Coho.


It's funny that you say "Cody wanted out", because that certainly wasn't what people were saying around here around the time that Gallagher suggested it. CDCers figured that was all hogwash, media fear-mongering, making a story out of nothing, etc.

Asd for your explanation above, that doesn't really reconcile to the rumblings at the time, which were that there were plenty of GMs around the NHL that had no idea that Hodgson was made available. Maybe Gillis could've gotten something better - something at least more immediate. You've gotta realize that we're a veteran team, in 1st place, coming off an SCF appearance, and maybe it's the last kick of the can. Now probably wouldn't be the time to roll the dice.
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#1358 surtur

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:55 PM

Just speculation on my part, obviously, but he did win a Cup already in Anaheim.



It's funny that you say "Cody wanted out", because that certainly wasn't what people were saying around here around the time that Gallagher suggested it. CDCers figured that was all hogwash, media fear-mongering, making a story out of nothing, etc.

Asd for your explanation above, that doesn't really reconcile to the rumblings at the time, which were that there were plenty of GMs around the NHL that had no idea that Hodgson was made available. Maybe Gillis could've gotten something better - something at least more immediate. You've gotta realize that we're a veteran team, in 1st place, coming off an SCF appearance, and maybe it's the last kick of the can. Now probably wouldn't be the time to roll the dice.

but there is absolutely no need to have every GM trying to offer you something you do not want . he had interest in several young players and those are who's GM's he would have talked to.
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#1359 Pears

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:00 PM

Read the part in brackets.

Then explain this that has been thrown at you many times, which you have dodged each time: If Kesler and the rest of the Canucks weren't injured as you say they were, explain all the rehab they had to go through.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1360 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:04 PM

It's funny that you say "Cody wanted out", because that certainly wasn't what people were saying around here around the time that Gallagher suggested it. CDCers figured that was all hogwash, media fear-mongering, making a story out of nothing, etc.

Asd for your explanation above, that doesn't really reconcile to the rumblings at the time, which were that there were plenty of GMs around the NHL that had no idea that Hodgson was made available. Maybe Gillis could've gotten something better - something at least more immediate. You've gotta realize that we're a veteran team, in 1st place, coming off an SCF appearance, and maybe it's the last kick of the can. Now probably wouldn't be the time to roll the dice.


Well he did want out. I actually didn't know Gallagher suggested it before. I hadn't really been coming on CDC all that often around that time.

If your a GM, when you are willing to move a player you call everyone, even in your own division, he most likely called all those other teams that had the players he wanted and none of them were willing to go for it.

But when you have someone your shopping you call everyone, that's the GM's job, to look at everything to try to make your team better.

So everyone knew that Coho was avaliable, Kassian was just the only offer that fit what we were looking for at the time.
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#1361 Gollumpus

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:06 PM

Then explain this that has been thrown at you many times, which you have dodged each time: If Kesler and the rest of the Canucks weren't injured as you say they were, explain all the rehab they had to go through.


Uhm, Steve? It's called "playing not at 100%". If you use the "I" word he won't understand what you're saying.

regards,
G.

Edited by Gollumpus, 20 November 2012 - 06:13 PM.

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#1362 Pears

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:27 PM

Uhm, Steve? It's called "playing not at 100%". If you use the "I" word he won't understand what you're saying.

regards,
G.

Good point. I'll remember that for next time ;)
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1363 Pineapples

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:59 PM

No sudden change. Credit where credit is due but many other posters take care of that well enough.
I never thought Luongo was a terrible goalie, it just seems to me like he has most of his worst games in the playoffs and that's not what I personally expect from a supposed elite goaltender.
Also Schneider has outshined him therefore I feel like he's expendable.


I guess I read your previous posts as if they were harsher than they were. My mistake.

As for the playoffs, we've only seen Cory play 2 full games, so I wouldn't say he out shined Lu just yet. Look at how good Lu was in his first playoff games.
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#1364 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:19 PM

Because Kesler was not performing to his 2010-11 level, and he has shown an inability to stay healthy (or at least refrain from telling everybody how hurt he is).

And it looks like it's time for another reminder that "the rookie" was 3rd in team goals, whilst centering the 3rd line and being given very few minutes.


FLA
Luongo
Kesler

VAN
Campbell
Bjudgstad

...I figure since Luongo is not as good as he once was... And Kesler is not as good as he once was... that... well... never mind.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 20 November 2012 - 10:28 PM.

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#1365 Pears

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:25 PM

FLA
Luongo
Kesler

VAN
Campbell
Bjudgstad

:picard:

Your proposals remind me very much of GHL's. Very one sided 95% of the time.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1366 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:30 PM

:picard:

Your proposals remind me very much of GHL's. Very one sided 95% of the time.


My friend, this is not a proposal. It is a response to the refered post, based on 3rd grade logic; a joke.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 20 November 2012 - 10:31 PM.

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#1367 WiDeN

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:32 PM

Again - don't let any facts cloud your prejudice.

I don't expect you to understand this King, but perhaps the most difficult job in the NHL is being a shutdown center on the worst clubs in hockey. Your claim that he wasn't shutting anyone down in Columbus merely reflects an opinion that you base on absolutely nothing - and to say he was a disaster in Vancouver is oblivious. The third line was far and away the best line for the Canucks in the time he was here. Pahlsson had comparable scoring stats to Hodgson: Pahlsson6 points in 19 games with 3rd line minutes - Hodgson 8 points in 20 playing big minutes - Pahlsson was a +4 while actually playing a shutdown role, Hodgson was -7 playing matchup minutes - which means Pahlsson's line outscored the best lines on opposition teams while Hodgson got schooled the minute he was no longer sheltered by Higgins and Hansen. What a disaster! Anyone who watched Canucks hockey could see his line dominating - they enjoyed an obvious territorial advantage - they were playing in a context where the top line was missing Daniel, the second line was hobbled, and a great deal of weight had fallen on the third line. They carried it and then some. The Canucks weren't going anywhere further with a liability centering their third line. Smart move - undermined only by injuries to Daniel and Kesler. Not going to beat L.A. when your third line is the only line that is healthy and playing well. Pahlsson 'only' had a goal in the playoffs and really, he should have been able to shut down Brown, Kopitar etc - what a letdown.
Pahlsson was a guy who had very low offensive zone starts - only 29.7% - delivered 46.6% offensive zone finishes - and his relative corsi in the ballpark of that rookie you lavish with undue praise. Where Pahlsson was -9.0, Canucks with a comparable role were -20.7 (Lapierre) and -32.6 (Malhotra) - and only a noob would complain about the defensive job that either of those guys did.
The only credible things you said were that Pahlsson was leaning towards home, and that Kassian was a reasonable gamble to take.

Bolded stuff is meaningless fake stats generated by distilling rainbows that flow from the rectums of giant unicorns kept at a top secret NHL military base somewhere in the arctic.

Because I disagree with a couple of the GMs moves (and only the timing of the Hodgson one), I'm "never satisfied with anything"? Typical Canuck homer answer. Any time a Canuck player, transaction, or draft pick is questioned, you're a troll, a hater, etc.

Stop playing the victim. There are lots of people with differing opinions on this site, but you take it to another level for some sort of satisfaction you don't seem to get in your regular life.

Nope, I just don't think Gillis (or any other NHL team, evidently) had much interest in signing him.

Bolded stuff is meaningless speculation generated by King's brainwaves that flow from the rectums of tiny unicorns kept at a not so secret ES argument base somewhere in the attic.
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#1368 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:36 PM

Listening invokes true enlightenment and therefore, greater assertiveness when speaking.
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#1369 oldnews

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:16 PM

Bolded stuff is meaningless fake stats generated by distilling rainbows that flow from the rectums of giant unicorns kept at a top secret NHL military base somewhere in the arctic.



Ok there Phiip Pullman

Stop playing the victim. There are lots of people with differing opinions on this site, but you take it to another level for some sort of satisfaction you don't seem to get in your regular life.


Ok there Dr Phil.

Bolded stuff is meaningless speculation generated by King's brainwaves that flow from the rectums of tiny unicorns kept at a not so secret ES argument base somewhere in the attic.


Ok there.
"We spend the first twelve months of our children's lives teaching them to walk and talk and the next twelve telling them to sit down and shut up." Phyllis Diller.

Edited by oldnews, 20 November 2012 - 11:35 PM.

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#1370 oldnews

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:21 PM

Listening invokes true enlightenment and therefore, greater assertiveness when speaking.


"You've got to find the serenity with inside the chaos. When you unfurl yourself for everyone to see, there is a dominant submission." - Lil C.
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#1371 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:28 PM

"You've got to find the serenity with inside the chaos. When you unfurl yourself for everyone to see, there is a dominant submission." - Lil C.


Very well placed. I might add that "If we were meant to talk more then we listen, we'd have two mouths and one ear" - Mark Twain

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 20 November 2012 - 11:59 PM.

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#1372 oldnews

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:05 AM

Very well placed. I might add that "If we were meant to talk more then we listen, we'd have two mouths and one ear" - Mark Twain


Jesus. Could you imagine the divorce rate?
Or how (even much more) frequently Luongo would be misquoted?

Edited by oldnews, 21 November 2012 - 12:50 AM.

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#1373 King of the ES

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:24 AM

My friend, this is not a proposal. It is a response to the refered post, based on 3rd grade logic; a joke.


"3rd grade logic"; actually, it's 3rd grade reading comprehension on your part. Did I say that Kesler "is not as good as he once was"? No, I said that he wasn't playing to his 2010-11 level. Big difference.

Do you disagree with that statement on Kesler?
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#1374 Pears

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:05 AM

"3rd grade logic"; actually, it's 3rd grade reading comprehension on your part. Did I say that Kesler "is not as good as he once was"? No, I said that he wasn't playing to his 2010-11 level. Big difference.

Do you disagree with that statement on Kesler?

He wasn't playing to his Selke winning form because for the 900th time he was playing injured! And AGAIN, you dodge my question about the rehab him and other players had to go through.

Too scared to know the truth King?
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1375 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:54 AM

He wasn't playing to his Selke winning form because for the 900th time he was playing injured! And AGAIN, you dodge my question about the rehab him and other players had to go through.

Too scared to know the truth King?


IIRC, Hodgson's beef against the organization is that he knew Kesler was injured and wanted the 2C position as he believed he'd be more effective then injured Kesler. Kesler and AV refused the proposal and a disgruntled Hodgson was promptly traded. Rehab for Kesler, Buffalo for Hodgson and the pressbox for Kassian who is currently carrying the great burden of being the next Bertuzzi.

And Luongo is the biggest mess? Sure...
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#1376 Dogbyte

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:53 AM

So now you're saying Kesler was injured after saying he wasn't injured?


This is undeniable.

Kesler is an idiot with a big head who wanted to score 41 goals again, and the coaching staff is even stupider for allowing him to play.

I clearly remember AV's comment, "I told Kelser he can play but I don't want to see him limping out there."

It was quite obvious he was injured all year.
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"What players need is the right kind of strength and power. That includes learning to understand that leverage and positioning can be just as important as raw strength when it comes to winning battles in the game. It's more about timing and athleticism --and avoiding injury--than it is about how much you can bench press. I don't know how many times I've seen a guy with the physique of a defensive end line up a guy half his size, only to bounce off when he connects. Sure, there is room in the game for big guys who can throw their weight around. But for the most part, players are smart enough to see them coming--and strong enough to protect the puck when they arrive. There are trainers out there who know how to devlop hockey-specific strength--though a trainer can help only if a player follows the program. All too often, I've seen players sign up with the best trainer, but not show up for their workouts and never to reap the benefits."

 

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#1377 Pears

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:56 AM

This is undeniable.

Kesler is an idiot with a big head who wanted to score 41 goals again, and the coaching staff is even stupider for allowing him to play.

I clearly remember AV's comment, "I told Kelser he can play but I don't want to see him limping out there."

It was quite obvious he was injured all year.

Yeah. What King was trying to say is that Kesler wasn't injured because of his logic: 'Kesler wasn't injured enough to be able to still play.'
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1378 Dogbyte

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:11 AM

Yeah. What King was trying to say is that Kesler wasn't injured because of his logic: 'Kesler wasn't injured enough to be able to still play.'


I kind of figured that out, seemed like you were arguing both sides there for a second. :)

Still made more sense than half of this thread.
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"What players need is the right kind of strength and power. That includes learning to understand that leverage and positioning can be just as important as raw strength when it comes to winning battles in the game. It's more about timing and athleticism --and avoiding injury--than it is about how much you can bench press. I don't know how many times I've seen a guy with the physique of a defensive end line up a guy half his size, only to bounce off when he connects. Sure, there is room in the game for big guys who can throw their weight around. But for the most part, players are smart enough to see them coming--and strong enough to protect the puck when they arrive. There are trainers out there who know how to devlop hockey-specific strength--though a trainer can help only if a player follows the program. All too often, I've seen players sign up with the best trainer, but not show up for their workouts and never to reap the benefits."

 

Bobby Orr - ORR MY STORY Viking 2013


#1379 King of the ES

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:47 AM

Yeah. What King was trying to say is that Kesler wasn't injured because of his logic: 'Kesler wasn't injured enough to be able to still play.'


And? What's wrong with that logic?

If somebody's playing in an NHL game, I'm going to assume that he has been signed off to play by the coaches, by the trainers, by the medical staff, etc. A guy like Kesler has been invested in very heavily and they're not going to allow him to play "because he wants to". Sorry, doesn't work that way. Medical personnel have reputations and professional licenses/designations at stake. If Kesler was too injured to play, he would not have been playing.

This is the same crap that everyone said about Cody when he was struggling in the AHL with the Moose. "Don't look at the numbers, he's hurt!"

And BTW - have any of you considered the possibility that Kesler's 41-goal season was an anomaly?
  • 2007-08: 21 goals
  • 2008-09: 26 goals
  • 2009-10: 25 goals
  • 2010-11: 41 goals
  • 2011-12: 22 goals
Which one of those is not like the other?
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#1380 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:57 AM

"3rd grade logic"; actually, it's 3rd grade reading comprehension on your part. Did I say that Kesler "is not as good as he once was"? No, I said that he wasn't playing to his 2010-11 level. Big difference.

Do you disagree with that statement on Kesler?


Semantics are fun
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