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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#1471 oldnews

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:07 AM

Sorry; a clarification. I did not call your perspective propaganda; I called the whole presentation of the Hodgson affair by Gillis this.

I did think you expand on this viewpoint that he was pitching a tad too aggressively from time to time. Comments like "for you Hodgson lovers give it up"... If Gillis was completely right, Kassian would have been a monster for us in the play off's. I would have preferred him saying right when the trade was made that, perhaps they made some mistakes, but Hodgson wanted more than we can offer him at the moment. So we're offering him a chance and also offering Kassian the chance to the big dominating winger we also need.

Meh; back to new business.


I don't have a problem for the most part with how Gillis handled the situation - as I already said, the only thing disagreed with was the notion that there was a pump and dump strategy - I think it's management and the coaching staff's job to pump up their players regardless - and the Canucks did a good job of playing Hodgson to his strengths in situations and to an extent that he could handle and excel in. People got extremely carried away thinking that translated into a player who was already prepared to take veteran's minutes, carry the team and reserve himself the next captaincy. The Province's hype campaign grossly over did it, to say the least - partly because they lack actual hockey perspective, and evidently they bought some of Winters' sales kick touting his rookie in a class with Stamkos. The whole thing spun into a circus of over-reaction - equal and opposite to the initial nonsense.
I think you are ignoring the role that Hodgson's agent played in the whole affair - complaining through, complaining about and manipulating media. Gallagher, for example, was an easy and eager messenger boy, while PITB Daniel Wagner a scapegoat. Read Winters' article if you haven't already.
Kassian wasn't acquired to be a "monster" in last year's playoffs. Gillis very clearly and unambiguously described him as a player who needed development - anyone who expected that wasn't looking realistically at the context, and anyone who expected Hodgson to be were also expecting too much, and not realizing how challenging his matchups would have been - and even moreso given the hobbled top two lines. The half-empty crowd loves to make the red herrring claim that Kassian was benched or press boxed - in reality, he suffered a shoulder injury against Anaheim with two games remaining in the season, missed the last two games, returned to play injured in the playoffs, playing only 4 minutes a game as a result, and couldn't really play the physical game needed. Bottom line - no rookie was going to subsidize a Cup run without the top two lines being effective.

How about this?

Luongo and Hodgson to Toronto :bigblush:
Myers and Frattin to Vancouver

Grabovski, Gardiner, and Connauton to Buffalo

Edited by oldnews, 23 November 2012 - 11:45 AM.

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#1472 Gollumpus

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:24 PM

How about this?

Luongo and Hodgson to Toronto :bigblush:
Myers and Frattin to Vancouver

Grabovski, Gardiner, and Connauton to Buffalo


I'd prefer:

Hodgson to Toronto

Myers and Frattin to Vancouver

Grabovski and Gardiner to Buffalo.

regards,
G.
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#1473 King of the ES

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:51 PM

I'd prefer:

Hodgson to Toronto

Myers and Frattin to Vancouver

Grabovski and Gardiner to Buffalo.


Right, so you think Luongo + Connauton will get us Myers and Frattin? :lol:

oldnews' proposal isn't bad, I just can't imagine a scenario where Buffalo trades Tyler Myers. 6'8" defenceman who are mean and can score are just way, way too rare. They'd be crazy to move him.

Besides, why would they need Gardiner if they already have Ehrhoff? :bigblush:
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#1474 oldnews

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:01 PM

I'd prefer:

Hodgson to Toronto

Myers and Frattin to Vancouver

Grabovski and Gardiner to Buffalo.

regards,
G.


!!!
That may be my favorite proposal, ever.
You thought this out in more depth than I did.
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#1475 Gollumpus

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:05 PM

Right, so you think Luongo + Connauton will get us Myers and Frattin? :lol:

oldnews' proposal isn't bad, I just can't imagine a scenario where Buffalo trades Tyler Myers. 6'8" defenceman who are mean and can score are just way, way too rare. They'd be crazy to move him.

Besides, why would they need Gardiner if they already have Ehrhoff? :bigblush:


Where are Luongo + Connauton mentioned in my proposal?

regards,
G.
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#1476 oldnews

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:08 PM

Right, so you think Luongo + Connauton will get us Myers and Frattin? :lol:

oldnews' proposal isn't bad, I just can't imagine a scenario where Buffalo trades Tyler Myers. 6'8" defenceman who are mean and can score are just way, way too rare. They'd be crazy to move him.

Besides, why would they need Gardiner if they already have Ehrhoff? :bigblush:


I think you quoted the wrong post King.
Anyway - no I don't think Buffalo'd be looking to move Myers - but - they owe us soooo much! :bigblush: - and the point of a Luongo deal is to improve the Canucks!

I was enjoying the idea, in my mind's eye, of Myers in a Canucks jersey - and Gollumpus managed to improve upon the fantasy (shafting Toronto even more!) - that is, until you ruined it with your critical thinking.

Edited by oldnews, 23 November 2012 - 01:14 PM.

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#1477 WiDeN

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:25 PM

Rome + AV for Myers.

Ballard + Raymond for Chara

Luongo for Justin Bieber
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#1478 oldnews

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:40 PM

Rome + AV for Myers.

Ballard + Raymond for Chara

Luongo for Justin Bieber


Luongo might be willing to waive his ntc for that deal - he'd still rock the top 10 at island def jam!
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#1479 Gollumpus

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:46 PM

Luongo for Justin Bieber


Make it Selena Gomez in place of Bieber and you got a deal.

regards,
G.
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#1480 WiDeN

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:12 PM

Make it Selena Gomez in place of Bieber and you got a deal.

regards,
G.

Isn't she still a prospect?
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#1481 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:05 PM

I don't have a problem for the most part with how Gillis handled the situation - as I already said, the only thing disagreed with was the notion that there was a pump and dump strategy - I think it's management and the coaching staff's job to pump up their players regardless - and the Canucks did a good job of playing Hodgson to his strengths in situations and to an extent that he could handle and excel in. People got extremely carried away thinking that translated into a player who was already prepared to take veteran's minutes, carry the team and reserve himself the next captaincy. The Province's hype campaign grossly over did it, to say the least - partly because they lack actual hockey perspective, and evidently they bought some of Winters' sales kick touting his rookie in a class with Stamkos. The whole thing spun into a circus of over-reaction - equal and opposite to the initial nonsense.
I think you are ignoring the role that Hodgson's agent played in the whole affair - complaining through, complaining about and manipulating media. Gallagher, for example, was an easy and eager messenger boy, while PITB Daniel Wagner a scapegoat. Read Winters' article if you haven't already.
Kassian wasn't acquired to be a "monster" in last year's playoffs. Gillis very clearly and unambiguously described him as a player who needed development - anyone who expected that wasn't looking realistically at the context, and anyone who expected Hodgson to be were also expecting too much, and not realizing how challenging his matchups would have been - and even moreso given the hobbled top two lines. The half-empty crowd loves to make the red herrring claim that Kassian was benched or press boxed - in reality, he suffered a shoulder injury against Anaheim with two games remaining in the season, missed the last two games, returned to play injured in the playoffs, playing only 4 minutes a game as a result, and couldn't really play the physical game needed. Bottom line - no rookie was going to subsidize a Cup run without the top two lines being effective.

How about this?

Luongo and Hodgson to Toronto :bigblush:
Myers and Frattin to Vancouver

Grabovski, Gardiner, and Connauton to Buffalo


LOL Toronto fans would love that; until it panned out. Guys like Hodgson, are only good with a lot of hard nut or glue guys also in the mix; because as talented as he is he wins NO physical battles. Guys like him will ultimately score game winners and control the puck; but the competitiveness comes elsewhere. Toronto cannot give up Grabovski and replace him with CoHo for that reason, he is a competitive player. They would need to retain Grabo to make that work. Really trading is dangerous for Toronto; they actually have very little I reckon they can afford to give up; the real reason Burkie has not pulled the trigger on Lou.

Hey Gollumpus; did Vancouver actually give up a player in that deal, or are you backdating and wanting more from the Hodgson trade???

:rolleyes:

But old subject; my memory was that Gillis commented about Kassian really being about futures well after the trade itself? On the day, and I am out of town so (?), all I recall was it was about putting some "balance" in the line up. My take was that if it was Steve Ott I would have been happy.

But Kassian will be a Steve Ott type guy...

I'd prefer:

Hodgson to Toronto

Myers and Frattin to Vancouver

Grabovski and Gardiner to Buffalo.

regards,
G.


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#1482 Pears

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:10 PM

Isn't she still a prospect?

We could use an injection of youth so I'm sure this deal would still go down.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1483 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:27 PM

I guess everyone vs King on the injured thing is over, I find it funny how he never replied to anything that proved he was completley wrong, oh well.

My Proposal:

Luongo for Bozak + Biggs + 2nd
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#1484 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:45 PM

I live in metro Australia, not Vancouver or Toronto. How good a prospect is Biggs?

Seems light on value as Bozak is a rental unless Biggs is spectacular. Has the right profile; pretty big right wing which (even with Kass) remains perhaps our biggest need...

I guess everyone vs King on the injured thing is over, I find it funny how he never replied to anything that proved he was completley wrong, oh well.

My Proposal:

Luongo for Bozak + Biggs + 2nd


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#1485 oldnews

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:40 PM

LOL Toronto fans would love that; until it panned out. Guys like Hodgson, are only good with a lot of hard nut or glue guys also in the mix; because as talented as he is he wins NO physical battles. Guys like him will ultimately score game winners and control the puck; but the competitiveness comes elsewhere. Toronto cannot give up Grabovski and replace him with CoHo for that reason, he is a competitive player. They would need to retain Grabo to make that work. Really trading is dangerous for Toronto; they actually have very little I reckon they can afford to give up; the real reason Burkie has not pulled the trigger on Lou.

Hey Gollumpus; did Vancouver actually give up a player in that deal, or are you backdating and wanting more from the Hodgson trade???

:rolleyes:

But old subject; my memory was that Gillis commented about Kassian really being about futures well after the trade itself? On the day, and I am out of town so (?), all I recall was it was about putting some "balance" in the line up. My take was that if it was Steve Ott I would have been happy.

But Kassian will be a Steve Ott type guy...


I think you are dead on regarding Toronto, Grabovski and Hodgson. Of course as a Canucks fan I don't care how the trade works out for them haha.

On the day of the trade deadline, Gilis' exact words regarding Kassian were:
"He still has a ways to go to develop his potential."

I think his comments regarding "balance" were regarding position and type of player - in addition to Hodgson, the Canucks already had Henrik, Kesler, Lapierre, Malhotra, Reinprecht and Schroeder at center. In terms of power forwards - only Booth in the system (I don't consider Jensen a prototype of a power forward) and in terms of natural RWs on the roster, only Hansen and depth RW.

I think they had a fairly good idea that Kassian is a prospect - on the verge of being an NHL regular, who could hold his own at the NHL level, but is not a minute-rice top 6 forward. I liked what I saw in a lot of ways - he made good decisions with the puck, he worked hard in his own end, he didn't run around getting out of position trying to throw big hits to impress people, he showed discipline, he adapted to different roles and appeared to have good hockey sense - and he showed a good attitude. Handled the trade and pressure pretty well for a young player. I thought the criticisms of him for the most part were from people with an axe to grind, and/or expecting an immediate Hodgson type replacement.

I was one of the people who was very happy that the Ott speculation did not materialize.
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#1486 Gollumpus

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:05 PM

Hey Gollumpus; did Vancouver actually give up a player in that deal, or are you backdating and wanting more from the Hodgson trade???


Nope, didn't give up a one. The Canucks get a couple of decent players for free. That's why I prefer the deal that way. :)

regards,
G.
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#1487 Gollumpus

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:24 PM

Isn't she still a prospect?


It's been two years since her draft.

regards,
G.
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#1488 King of the ES

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:45 PM

LOL Toronto fans would love that; until it panned out. Guys like Hodgson, are only good with a lot of hard nut or glue guys also in the mix; because as talented as he is he wins NO physical battles. Guys like him will ultimately score game winners and control the puck; but the competitiveness comes elsewhere. Toronto cannot give up Grabovski and replace him with CoHo for that reason, he is a competitive player. They would need to retain Grabo to make that work. Really trading is dangerous for Toronto; they actually have very little I reckon they can afford to give up; the real reason Burkie has not pulled the trigger on Lou.


It surprises me that Canuck fans - of all fans - bring up the fact that Hodgson's not going to be winning a lot of physical battles. How do the Sedin's do in physical battles? And what exactly is a "hard nut" glue guy?

And saying that Cody is "not a competitive player" is total BS. Not being overly emotional on the ice does not mean that you're not competitive. You don't win the CHL Player of the Year award if you have motivation issues. You don't train with G. Roberts, and adhere to his very strict diet year-round, if you have motivation issues. Heck, you don't complain about your ice time if you have motivation issues!

I actually think that this is the most highly motivated kid that's come around for some time, certainly to this organization, anyway.
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#1489 riffraff

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 08:02 PM

It surprises me that Canuck fans - of all fans - bring up the fact that Hodgson's not going to be winning a lot of physical battles. How do the Sedin's do in physical battles? And what exactly is a "hard nut" glue guy?

And saying that Cody is "not a competitive player" is total BS. Not being overly emotional on the ice does not mean that you're not competitive. You don't win the CHL Player of the Year award if you have motivation issues. You don't train with G. Roberts, and adhere to his very strict diet year-round, if you have motivation issues. Heck, you don't complain about your ice time if you have motivation issues!

I actually think that this is the most highly motivated kid that's come around for some time, certainly to this organization, anyway.


Nearly every goal burrows scores is a result of Sedins winning puck battles along the boards/behind the net.....usually against top d pairings.....not bashing coho....just sayin'.
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CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#1490 Gollumpus

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 08:25 PM

Heck, you don't complain about your ice time if you have motivation issues!


Yeah, and you don't complain about your back being less than 100%, either.

regards,
G.
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#1491 oldnews

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:57 PM

It surprises me that Canuck fans - of all fans - bring up the fact that Hodgson's not going to be winning a lot of physical battles. How do the Sedin's do in physical battles? And what exactly is a "hard nut" glue guy?


Hardy har har....King. Really? If the Sedins aren't among the best in the world at cycling the puck, who is? Simply because they don't drop the gloves or throw a lot of body checks does not mean they don't win physical battles. It surprises me that a Canucks fan of all fans would be oblivious to this. They are deceivingly strong, they are extremely fit, and they are very difficult to move off the puck. They win physical battles - the majority of them - or they simply wouldn't be such outstanding players on the boards - which is where cycling takes place KIng.

I'm not going to speak for Canuck Surfer, but imo a "hard nut" guy would be someone like Hansen - who, when playing 5 on 5 with Hodgson, made him a hell of a lot better player than he was without him. Higgins - also a solid, aggressive, excellent two way player - the kind of player Hodgson needs to complement him, at least at this point in his development, particularly since he is a center and otherwise would be the guy on his forward line who is supposed to be most responsible defensively. I suppose these guys don't have the kind of pedigree to impress...? How did Hodgson fare without them? Minus, minus, minus - which is not to say he sucks, but that he is not yet a player who will be successful in simply any situation. Canuck Surfer didn't say anything about "motivational" issues (you morphed things, as you tend to) - he was simply stating that Hodgson is not the kind of player who wins a great deal of physical battles - and was right.

Edited by oldnews, 23 November 2012 - 10:02 PM.

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#1492 playboi19

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:07 PM

I'd prefer:

Hodgson to Toronto

Myers and Frattin to Vancouver

Grabovski and Gardiner to Buffalo.

regards,
G.

Yikes! Buffalo gets absolutely raped.
They lose a legit, calder winning beast defenseman.
They lose Cody Hodgson a.k.a their best prospect.

They get a soft, overpaid center.
They get a defenseman who has nothing on Tyler Myers.

Edited by playboi19, 23 November 2012 - 10:09 PM.

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#1493 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:11 PM

It surprises me that Canuck fans - of all fans - bring up the fact that Hodgson's not going to be winning a lot of physical battles. How do the Sedin's do in physical battles? And what exactly is a "hard nut" glue guy?


Great. They win them, that's how they are so good at cycling in deep and retriving the puck after dumps in and so-on.
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#1494 oldnews

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:14 PM

Yikes! Buffalo gets absolutely raped.
They lose a legit, calder winning beast defenseman.
They lose Cody Hodgson a.k.a their best prospect.

They get a soft, overpaid center.
They get a defenseman who has nothing on Tyler Myers.


::D
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#1495 WiDeN

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:03 AM

We could use an injection of youth so I'm sure this deal would still go down.

It's been two years since her draft.

regards,
G.

She's pretty talented. She's got a great set of stats.

Great. They win them, that's how they are so good at cycling in deep and retriving the puck after dumps in and so-on.

Yeah, I don't get why the Sedins get such a soft reputation. They engage in all sorts of physical battles for the puck, but they won't mix it up after the whistle. The number of 1 on 1 battles they win by gaining body position and protecting the puck is astonishing. Guys know the only way to get the puck from a Sedin is to paste them, so they are targeted pretty hard, and still manage to produce a ton of points. There are A LOT more top players that are softer then the Sedins.

Edited by WiDeN, 24 November 2012 - 12:08 AM.

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#1496 Gollumpus

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:24 AM

Yikes! Buffalo gets absolutely raped.
They lose a legit, calder winning beast defenseman.
They lose Cody Hodgson a.k.a their best prospect.

They get a soft, overpaid center.
They get a defenseman who has nothing on Tyler Myers.


True, but the Canucks get a great return for what they put into the trade....

regards,
G.

Edited by Gollumpus, 24 November 2012 - 12:25 AM.

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#1497 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:53 AM

She's pretty talented. She's got a great set of stats.

Yeah, I don't get why the Sedins get such a soft reputation. They engage in all sorts of physical battles for the puck, but they won't mix it up after the whistle. The number of 1 on 1 battles they win by gaining body position and protecting the puck is astonishing. Guys know the only way to get the puck from a Sedin is to paste them, so they are targeted pretty hard, and still manage to produce a ton of points. There are A LOT more top players that are softer then the Sedins.


Still, they should be killing penalties too, like most of the greats.
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#1498 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:36 AM

I live in metro Australia, not Vancouver or Toronto. How good a prospect is Biggs?

Seems light on value as Bozak is a rental unless Biggs is spectacular. Has the right profile; pretty big right wing which (even with Kass) remains perhaps our biggest need...


Here's a report pre-draft from the HockeyWriters.


Scout’s Honor:

“Biggs is terrifying to match up against as he is a big, strong kid who knows how to use his biggest assets to his advantage. His intimidating and crushing physical forechecks open the door for a lot of offensive pressure and he has proven that he can take advantage of that around the net. He has a great shot with a good quick release but does most of his offensive damange directly in front of the net.”

ETA = 2-3 yr

Risk-Reward Analysis:

Risk = 2.5/5 Reward = 4/5

NHL Potential:

2nd line power forward upside, with 3rd line disrupting power forward downside

Strengths:

  • Size
  • Strength
  • Leadership
  • Compete level
  • “Nastiness”; plays with an edge
  • Battle level along the boards
  • Solid skating
  • Coachability and willingness to work on complete game
Flaws/Aspects He Needs To Work On:
  • Improve burst, acceleration.
  • Continue to develop his neutral and defensive zone acumen.
  • Develop consistent scoring touch.
Fantasy Hockey Potential: Offensive = 7/10 Defensive = 8/10

NHL Player(s) Comparison:
- Milan Lucic, Dustin Brown



He is a bit different than Kassian in my opinion, he is more comparable to Brown in my mind as aposed to Kassian who has a more comparable style to Bertuzzi/Lucic IMO. He seems to have a strong two way game and high compete level & good offensive ability, with maybe a little bit less pure nastyness than Kass, even though he is still a nasty player.

And he currently has 12 goals, 25 Points in 26 Games for Oshawa. So his offensive ability isn't quite the concern they expressed in that article IMO.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 24 November 2012 - 01:38 AM.

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#1499 Pears

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:39 AM

Here's a report pre-draft from the HockeyWriters.





He is a bit different than Kassian in my opinion, he is more comparable to Brown in my mind as aposed to Kassian who has a more comparable style to Bertuzzi/Lucic IMO. He seems to have a strong two way game, with maybe a little bit less pure nastyness than Kass, even though he is still a nasty player.

And he currently has 12 goals, 25 Points in 26 Games for Oshawa. So his offensive ability isn't quite the concern they expressed in that article IMO.

Man. I'd actually be down to get Biggs now. The kid sounds very promising and we would more than likely develop him better than Toronto would. Just imagine having a Lucic and Brown v2.0 in 4-5 years??
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1500 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:49 AM

Man. I'd actually be down to get Biggs now. The kid sounds very promising and we would more than likely develop him better than Toronto would. Just imagine having a Lucic and Brown v2.0 in 4-5 years??


just draft Carrier with our first this year:

Jensen - Gaunce - Biggs
Carrier - Schroeder - Kassian

This future top 6 has a good balance of alot of size, skill, work ethic, 2 way play, & some good Leadership too.
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