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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#1921 King of the ES

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:42 PM

Compare apples with apples then...
Florida got an All Star power forward, a blue chip dman prospect and a starting goalie for Lu. But now you are saying after six years the Canucks shouldn't get anything. ???


I'm sorry, but in 2006, Todd Bertuzzi was not an "All-Star power forward", Bryan Allen was not even close to being a "blue chip dman prospect" (was 26 years old at the time of the trade and had provided ample evidence that it was an error for Vancouver to draft him 4th overall), and calling Alex Auld a "starting goalie" is/was also a stretch. He was a band-aid in Vancouver for an injured Dan Cloutier.

All that aside, you are talking about almost an entire other generation ago, back in 2006. I will again use Vinny Lecavalier as an example. In '06, he had 52 goals and 108 points. He also had a Stanley Cup to his name. One of the absolute most untouchable players, at the time. Fast forward to 2012, and what do you think the price would be paid to acquire him now, given his contract and decline in play?

Lu, Sauve, 3rd
For
Rielly or JVR

Dreaming...


You're dreaming with Rielly, with JVR I'd say that it'd be possible except that Toronto had just acquired him.
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#1922 King of the ES

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:49 PM

They would all disagree with your evaluation of Luongo.


Do you even know what my evaluation of Luongo is? I wanted to keep him, and trade the other guy. I think he's still very good, and he'll absolutely help whatever team he ends up on.

The issue is the external factors tied to this deal: his age, contract, NMC, and the fact that most teams are already heavily invested in goaltenders. Add that to the fact that Luongo's asked out, and other GMs see the position that Gillis is in, and none will want to overpay. This is not an ideal environment to be selling an asset like Luongo.

He gave you three first round picks, so what's your issue. They MUST all be as good as any other first round picks.


Very weak response on your part, as the guys that you had mentioned were mostly taken many years ago, and have offered ample evidence which confirms that they're not NHL-caliber players, unlike any of the TOR/VAN prospects discussed.
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#1923 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:22 PM

Your going to have to explain Corsi to me before you use it in an argument against me haha. :P

I just look at the way I see Raymond play, he has speed that helps but other than that he makes ton's of mistakes, doesn't block shots, isn't physical, loses battles, to me he is just lucky he gets unlimited chances to play with such good players, that's the only thing keeping him in the + category IMO.

One of the common CDC misconceptions.

You admit that you don't understand how Corsi works, but base youre opinion on "what you see". A lot of casual fans see things the same as you, but don't really understand what they're looking at.

Do you really believe that the Canucks would re-sign Raymond (even with a paycut) if they believed as you and the rest of these casual fans do?

Raymond gets a bad rap on CDC, because most people don't understand much about hockey past offensive stats. He more valuable than most people think.

Gollumpus suggested it, Steven Stamkos' Mullet agreed that it was fair. From the Proposals and Armchair GMing board, thread titled "FLA-VAN".

These are the same two guys that have also suggested Teddy Purcell, Keith Aulie, + a 1st for Luongo.

I doubt that oldnews was referring to random CDC posters when he said "hockey minds"....
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#1924 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:31 PM

Compare apples with apples then...
Florida got an All Star power forward, a blue chip dman prospect and a starting goalie for Lu. But now you are saying after six years the Canucks shouldn't get anything. ???
Posters are suggesting secondary pieces, not even close to what the Canucks gave up.

Lu, Sauve, 3rd
For
Rielly or JVR

Dreaming...


Wait... Wait..... Waaiiiit.... Leafs fans freak out halfway into the season, Burke's head is being considered for the chopping block...

Lou, Sauvé, 3rd
For
Rielly, Biggs AND JVR.
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#1925 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:51 PM

You're aware that you're basing your opinion on a sample size that's roughly 20% of a single AHL season, right?

Colborne had 39 points in 65 games in the AHL last year, as well, while Kassian had 26 in 30. Would he have been able to keep up the pace? Maybe. But let's not also forget that Colborne had 5 points in 10 NHL games last year, too, while Kassian had only 3 in 17.



In 2011-12, Ashton had 35 points in 56 games (0.63 PPG) in the AHL, whereas Schroeder had 44 in 76 (0.58 PPG). So I guess Carter Ashton was the better player last year, than, while Jordan Schroeder is currently the better player, as of about 20% of the AHL's season?

Anyway, my point is based on the fact that at this point, all of these guys are of comparable value: 1st round picks that haven't done anything in the NHL.


There all developing players.

Kassian has been better at the AHL Level than Colbourne, and you bring up that NHL fact, but the thing is Kassian did that on the 4th line. whereas Colbourne played top 9 minutes the entire time.

As for Schroeder he has been improve at an amazing rate, last year he struggled at the beginning (for a longer period of time) then as the year progressed came much better and this year we can already see the improvement, with Ashton he seems to be struggling, not just with stats but watching him play he doesn't generate much, doesn't do alot defensively, whereas Schroeder always looks dangerous and is a solid two-way player.
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#1926 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:00 PM

One of the common CDC misconceptions.

You admit that you don't understand how Corsi works, but base youre opinion on "what you see". A lot of casual fans see things the same as you, but don't really understand what they're looking at.

Do you really believe that the Canucks would re-sign Raymond (even with a paycut) if they believed as you and the rest of these casual fans do?

Raymond gets a bad rap on CDC, because most people don't understand much about hockey past offensive stats. He more valuable than most people think.


Yeah because he came off an injury, and before that he was actually a good player. So there is a reason there and something to aim for.

Plus he is an RFA, why would you give that asset away for nothing. If he has another terrible season I doubt he will remain with the club.


I don't believe Corsi is the be all end all, but it is a useful stat. My point is that he doesn't block shots, he loses battles, gives the puck away, isn't physical, these aren't really things that can be proven or disproven because he has gotten unless chances to play in the top 6, which boost his corsi even if he plays well, and either way.

how can corsi prove if he wins battles, gives the puck away, or blocks shots?

The only good about his defensive play is that he can play his position and that he has speed, that's pretty much it IMO.
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#1927 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:21 PM

Yeah because he came off an injury, and before that he was actually a good player. So there is a reason there and something to aim for.

Plus he is an RFA, why would you give that asset away for nothing. If he has another terrible season I doubt he will remain with the club.


I don't believe Corsi is the be all end all, but it is a useful stat. My point is that he doesn't block shots, he loses battles, gives the puck away, isn't physical, these aren't really things that can be proven or disproven because he has gotten unless chances to play in the top 6, which boost his corsi even if he plays well, and either way.

how can corsi prove if he wins battles, gives the puck away, or blocks shots?

The only good about his defensive play is that he can play his position and that he has speed, that's pretty much it IMO.

As King is fond of saying, I think you need to look at it from the point of view of the other side.

How many offensively challenged teams out there would be interested in a former 25 goal scorer with speed to burn, especially considering that his decline can be attributed to a couple of serious injuries? Here we have people talking in positive terms about Nazem Kadri, as similar player, but without the 25 goal campaign behind him.

If Gillis didn't value Raymond, I doubt that he'd have had much trouble getting a decent prospect or pick for him.
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#1928 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:29 PM

As King is fond of saying, I think you need to look at it from the point of view of the other side.

How many offensively challenged teams out there would be interested in a former 25 goal scorer with speed to burn, especially considering that his decline can be attributed to a couple of serious injuries? Here we have people talking in positive terms about Nazem Kadri, as similar player, but without the 25 goal campaign behind him.

If Gillis didn't value Raymond, I doubt that he'd have had much trouble getting a decent prospect or pick for him.


He would probably get the same thing Florida got from us for Higgins.

The reason I talk about Kadri like that is because unlike Raymond he hasn't gotten endless opportunites in the top 6 (let alone even on the team).

Gillis still believes in him, he has to cause his play can be faulted by the injury, there is hope he can regain form, but if he doesn't I doubt he will be back, and MG and Raymond both know he is on his last straw.
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#1929 Everybody Hates Raymond

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:31 PM

Posted Image

So this is a thing now :lol:
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#1930 Pears

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:33 PM

Gollumpus suggested it, Steven Stamkos' Mullet agreed that it was fair. From the Proposals and Armchair GMing board, thread titled "FLA-VAN".

Now you're morphing my words to support your argument. I never said Luongo for Huberdeau, Petrovic, Clemmensen and a 1st was fair. I said Purcell, Aulie and a 2014 1st was more than fair.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1931 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:34 PM

He would probably get the same thing Florida got from us for Higgins.

The reason I talk about Kadri like that is because unlike Raymond he hasn't gotten endless opportunites in the top 6 (let alone even on the team).

Gillis still believes in him, he has to cause his play can be faulted by the injury, there is hope he can regain form, but if he doesn't I doubt he will be back, and MG and Raymond both know he is on his last straw.

I think ideally, that he's suited more to the third line, but when there are injuries to the top six, he's the logical player to move up.
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#1932 Pears

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:36 PM

Wait... Wait..... Waaiiiit.... Leafs fans freak out halfway into the season, Burke's head is being considered for the chopping block...

Lou, Sauvé, 3rd
For
Rielly, Biggs AND JVR.

That trade WILL put Burke's head on the chopping block.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1933 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:38 PM

I think ideally, that he's suited more to the third line, but when there are injuries to the top six, he's the logical player to move up.


I don't know, at this point I would give Higgins, Hansen or even Kassian a shot ahead of him.
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#1934 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:45 PM

I don't know, at this point I would give Higgins, Hansen or even Kassian a shot ahead of him.

Kassian, eventually. I don't think he's quite there yet.

Hansen and Higgins would be the my other two ideal third liners, but if you move one them up, I think it weakens the third a bit too much. I think the overall balance is better maintained by moving Raymond around, rather than either Higgins or Hansen.

Just my opinion...
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#1935 niklas

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 04:11 PM

Posted Image

So this is a thing now :lol:

Is that for real?
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#1936 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

That trade WILL put Burke's head on the chopping block.


Then we agree that:

VAN
JVR
Rielly
Biggs

TOR
Luongo
Ballard
Raymond
Tanev

Is indeed a fair deal both for Toronto and for Vancouver?
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#1937 Pears

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:34 PM

Then we agree that:

VAN
JVR
Rielly
Biggs

TOR
Luongo
Ballard
Raymond
Tanev

Is indeed a fair deal both for Toronto and for Vancouver?

No GHL. That too, will put Burke's head on the chopping block.

Edited by Steven Stamkos' Mullet, 02 December 2012 - 06:09 PM.

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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1938 Joel Heyman

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:54 PM

Darren Millard think Bozak and Kadri for Lu..

Take it for what it is.

Edited by Hansen 36, 02 December 2012 - 06:55 PM.

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#1939 Everybody Hates Raymond

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:04 PM

Is that for real?


Yep
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#1940 Gollumpus

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:35 PM

Posted Image

So this is a thing now :lol:


Maybe it's a trick of the light, but those don't look like they are made from the same material and the color is a bit off.. And maybe it's just how the jersey is hanging, but where are the Leaf shoulder patches on the Luongo jersey?

regards,
G.
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#1941 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:39 PM

Maybe it's a trick of the light, but those don't look like they are made from the same material and the color is a bit off.. And maybe it's just how the jersey is hanging, but where are the Leaf shoulder patches on the Luongo jersey?

regards,
G.


The Luongo jersey is the Leafs third jersey.
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#1942 Mack Attack

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:45 PM

Darren Millard think Bozak and Kadri for Lu..

Take it for what it is.


Yes please for Kadri. Hell no for Bozak. Love the cap space. All we need is an amnesty buyout to get rid of Ballard and we have loads of room.

Still think it'd be a good idea to get Dman back though. Cody Franson would be a good fit and doesn't seem to have much of a spot in Toronto.
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#1943 WHL rocks

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:06 PM

Just saw this on twitter.


Samir Javer@samjam99
According to @darenmillard as well as Pierre McGuire on TEAM 1040, it will be Kadri and Bozak for Luongo…



Daren Millard@darenmillard
@SmithSports_AAH I have heard bozak and kadri and I think luongo is a leaf post lockout

Like Mack Attack said above, add Franson to the deal and I think its a very good return. But Franson is signed to a full year in Europe. He was RFA so he won't be coming back if the lockout ends and we have a shortened season.
If his Swedish team Brynas allows him to come back early then he could though. Perhaps there is some sort of verbal agreement that they'll let him return if he agrees to an NHL contract once lockout ends.

Edited by WHL rocks, 02 December 2012 - 08:12 PM.

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#1944 Gollumpus

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:07 PM

Care to show us a quote? What are you talking about?


I believe what King is talking about was a post I made over a week ago. I was harping on the general subject put forward by many posters that any GM (in this case Tallon, but it could apply to Burke) has a list of untouchable assets which will not be traded, and therefore Gillis would be stuck picking up the equivalent of a bucket of used pucks for Luongo.

My position is based on Gillis' plan to pick up an impact roster player, a top prospect and a 1st. I believe that if the other GM doesn't want to give up one of these assets, then he will have to give something of value to Gillis to make up for this.

Normally, when people are discussing Florida, Bjugstad's name comes up as the top prospect. This is, more often than not, met with derision, so I changed things up and suggested Huberdeau to help make the point that there are assets which are untouchable and assets which would merely be nice to keep.

Was it a proposal for serious consideration? No, but it sells newspapers in Kingland.

regards,
G.

Edited by Gollumpus, 02 December 2012 - 11:47 PM.

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#1945 Gollumpus

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:09 PM

The Luongo jersey is the Leafs third jersey.


Ah, thanks for the clarification. :)

regards,
G.
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#1946 WHL rocks

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:20 PM

Need to see Luongo wearing a Leafs jersey for it to mean something.

My 2 year old son had a Canucks jersey with his last name on the back.
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#1947 TmanVan

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:20 PM

Can anyone else confirm Pierre saying that on the team 1040? I believe it if its both Mcquire and Millard....... althought I would believe it more if it were Bobby Mac and Pierre Lebrun.
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#1948 Mighty Walrus

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:25 PM

.

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#1949 Mack Attack

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:28 PM

Can anyone else confirm Pierre saying that on the team 1040? I believe it if its both Mcquire and Millard....... althought I would believe it more if it were Bobby Mac and Pierre Lebrun.


I think it's more likely that Kadri and Bozak have both been mentioned in discussions frequently. Don't think there's a done deal or anything yet though.
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#1950 Gollumpus

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:34 PM

Just saw this on twitter.


Samir Javer@samjam99
According to @darenmillard as well as Pierre McGuire on TEAM 1040, it will be Kadri and Bozak for Luongo…



Daren Millard@darenmillard
@SmithSports_AAH I have heard bozak and kadri and I think luongo is a leaf post lockout

Like Mack Attack said above, add Franson to the deal and I think its a very good return. But Franson is signed to a full year in Europe. He was RFA so he won't be coming back if the lockout ends and we have a shortened season.


The trade looks a bit light for my tastes, even if it were drafted prior to the lockout. Assuming there is a season this season, getting Bozak for now only a few months (and then he could walk as a UFA) doesn't make for a great return.

Kadri has started to look pretty good with the Marlies, and considering the Leafs lack of quality centers, it suggests to me that Burke would want to keep him.

Kadri and whatever Gillis can get for Luongo isn't much of a return.

Franson would improve the deal somewhat, but even he might not want to stay around as a bottom-6 d-man.

regards,
G.

Edited by Gollumpus, 04 December 2012 - 09:29 PM.

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