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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#1981 thad

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:18 PM

How about

Luongo 1st

Kadri bozak 1st 3rd

Take our chances on getting the better pick. Should be no problem if the lockout doesn't hurt us too much

Edited by thad, 03 December 2012 - 05:30 PM.

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#1982 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:29 PM

To be frank, there's no better fit for Lu than the Vancouver Canucks. Next best fit would be the Chicago Blackhawks. Is Florida really a contender, if they were to get Luongo? Not in my opinion. Toronto? Probably not.

And OK, you think that the trade deadline is the magical time where someone will pay a pretty penny for Lu's services. That would have to be a first, as I don't recall many 10-year contracts being exchanged at that time.


I don't know, Toronto is a pretty good fit for Luongo aswell.

And trade wise far better than Chicago.
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#1983 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:04 PM

Here's some line up projections based on us getting Bozak/Kadri:


Sedin – Sedin – Burrows
Booth – Kesler – Hansen
Higgins – Bozak – Kassian
Malholtra – Lapierre –Weise
Schroeder

Hamhuis – Bieksa
Garrison – Edler
Ballard – Tanev
Alberts

Schneider
Lack

With Kesler out:

Sedin – Sedin – Burrows
Booth – Bozak – Hansen
Higgins – Kadri – Kassian
Malholtra – Lapierre – Weise
Schroeder

Hamhuis – Bieksa
Garrison – Edler
Ballard – Tanev
Alberts

Schneider
Lack

I have Schroeder as our 13th forward because he's honestly outplayed Ebbett in the minors. I'm not sure where Kesler is with his injury, I know it's more than just a shoulder thing now but a wrist issue as well. Regardless Bozak as a 3rd line centre would bolster our offensive depth. I can just imagine Higgins - Bozak - Kassian tearing apart 3rd pairing defensemen.
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#1984 niklas

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:23 PM

where is Kadri in your first lineup? AHL?
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#1985 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:28 PM

Here's mine:

Daniel - Henrik - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Kadri/Kassian
Higgins - Bozak - Hansen
Manny - Lappy - Weise

Hamhuis - Bieksa
Edler - Garrison
Ballard - Tanev


*Without Kes:

Booth - Kadri - Kassian
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#1986 WiDeN

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:52 PM

To be frank, there's no better fit for Lu than the Vancouver Canucks. Next best fit would be the Chicago Blackhawks. Is Florida really a contender, if they were to get Luongo? Not in my opinion. Toronto? Probably not.

And OK, you think that the trade deadline is the magical time where someone will pay a pretty penny for Lu's services. That would have to be a first, as I don't recall many 10-year contracts being exchanged at that time.

You are probably right, but the best fit for the Vancouver Canucks may not be Luongo, and they appear to think Schneider is the better option. I have never been much of a fan of Toronto as a trade partner, and I don't think it is the greatest place for him as a player at this stage in his career.

I don't specifically remember any super lengthy contracts being exchanged at the deadline, but if he is the best goalie available, then that would likely be one of the best times to pull the trigger. Gillis, no doubt, has offers on the table that he is holding out on, so if he has more than one team interested, then the trade deadline would be the easiest time to drive a price war. I have no clue when it will happen, but the trade deadline, and the draft are both pressure points in the year for teams.

Geez GHL you never will get it,lol
Florida is the best place for Lu by a country mile. Lu has a family and his children will be enterring the school system very soon, and being closer to home would be better.
The 2nd best place for Lu is Toronto because Lu is in fact a very good regular season goalie and would give the Leafs a shot at making the playoffs.
Vancouver is about as far from Florida as you can get and Lu has had way to many epic meltdowns for many fans and players to have faith in him.
Praying for his forgiveness and thinking he will up his game(PLAYOFFS) in his mid 30s is pure fantasy.

Florida may be the best place for Luongo as a person, but are they going to get him in to cup contention? I think Lu still has a chance at a cup, and I guarantee that he believes he does. So, if we are looking at a trade with a contending team, I doubt he says no regardless of where it is on a map. Besides, Luongo is not trading himself, and it is MG that will ask him to waive to whichever team we find to trade with.

The Luongo trade philosophy:

Random NHL team:
Luongo

VAN
A marginal player whose in and out of the lineup,
A rookie who will never make it,
A 1st round draft pick, hopefully from a bottom feeder.

If that's too much, then drop the first. The fans would rather see crap spare parts never make the team then having Luongo in net for one second more. In fact, he should never set foot in Vancouver again, even if he plays for another team.

Spare parts only please. I ask: is this a society of winners or a society of token beggars?

This is complete exaggeration.
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#1987 70seven

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:15 PM

Here's mine:

Daniel - Henrik - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Kadri/Kassian
Higgins - Bozak - Hansen
Manny - Lappy - Weise

Hamhuis - Bieksa
Edler - Garrison
Ballard - Tanev


*Without Kes:

Booth - Kadri - Kassian




haha... i like how everybody forgets Raymond... I dont think Kadri will crack either roster this season, unless he develops some sick chemistry on the 2nd line... but the kid is soley a top 6 forward, and the Canucks have enough bodies who can be trusted moreso with so little room for error in a shortened season.



When healthy:

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Raymond/Higgins
Raymond/Higgins - Bozak - Hansen
Lapierre - Malhotra - Kassian
Weise
Pinnizotto


But we all know how AV interchanges parts, and its a pretty versatile lineup... So the lineup is anyones guess.
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#1988 sampy

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:30 PM

haha... i like how everybody forgets Raymond... I dont think Kadri will crack either roster this season, unless he develops some sick chemistry on the 2nd line... but the kid is soley a top 6 forward, and the Canucks have enough bodies who can be trusted moreso with so little room for error in a shortened season.



When healthy:

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Raymond/Higgins
Raymond/Higgins - Bozak - Hansen
Lapierre - Malhotra - Kassian
Weise
Pinnizotto


But we all know how AV interchanges parts, and its a pretty versatile lineup... So the lineup is anyones guess.



Agreed. This is what the Canucks roster should look like. Good looking lineup if the rumour is true. Bozak is a local kid who is good defensively, has some offensive potential, and is young. A good centreman who can move up and down in the lineup.

I am still hoping Gillis is working some magic for a blue chip player/prospect in a bigger trade. The Canucks have a lot of good players but they need another all star.

Edited by sampy, 03 December 2012 - 09:32 PM.

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#1989 Trelane42

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:49 PM

Kessel signing and drafting record aside, Burkie does win most trades he makes.

Bozak (mediocre 3rd line 1/2 season rental) and Kadri (Schroeder equivalent, maybe better by a hair) would be a brutal trade for us. Buds get an all star goalie and we get... almost nothing, for I can't see either of these guys being a permanent fixture in any AV lineup when Kesler gets back.

This being a decent draft year with a lot of high end forwards, a 1st rounder coming our way as part of this or any Lou trade would be somewhat palatable.
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#1990 Pears

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:00 PM

Agreed. This is what the Canucks roster should look like. Good looking lineup if the rumour is true. Bozak is a local kid who is good defensively, has some offensive potential, and is young. A good centreman who can move up and down in the lineup.

I am still hoping Gillis is working some magic for a blue chip player/prospect in a bigger trade. The Canucks have a lot of good players but they need another all star.

Not sure where you're getting Bozak is a local boy from as he was born in Regina.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

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#1991 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:02 PM

My lineup prediction for a shortened season and beyond:

D. Sedin - H. Sedin - Burrows
Raymond - Kesler - Booth
Higgins - Lapierre - Hansen
Pinnizzotto - Malholtra - Kassian

Hamhuis - Bieksa
Edler - Garrison
Tanev - Ballard
Alberts

Luongo
schneider

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 03 December 2012 - 10:05 PM.

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#1992 sampy

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:10 PM



Kessel signing and drafting record aside, Burkie does win most trades he makes.

Bozak (mediocre 3rd line 1/2 season rental) and Kadri (Schroeder equivalent, maybe better by a hair) would be a brutal trade for us. Buds get an all star goalie and we get... almost nothing, for I can't see either of these guys being a permanent fixture in any AV lineup when Kesler gets back.

This being a decent draft year with a lot of high end forwards, a 1st rounder coming our way as part of this or any Lou trade would be somewhat palatable.


I agree but Lu's contract may not help his value. I hope you are right.


Not sure where you're getting Bozak is a local boy from as he was born in Regina.

Sorry, you're right. Played in Victoria.

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#1993 CookieCrumbs

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:04 AM

My lineup prediction for a shortened season and beyond:

D. Sedin - H. Sedin - Burrows
Raymond - Kesler - Booth
Higgins - Lapierre - Hansen
Pinnizzotto - Malholtra - Kassian

Hamhuis - Bieksa
Edler - Garrison
Tanev - Ballard
Alberts

Luongo
schneider


This is the line up I would like to see as well. If Luongo goes, then somebody to replace MayRay on that 2nd line would be nice.
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#1994 playboi19

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:22 AM

*
POPULAR

Plan:

-Trade Luongo to the leafs.
-Media over-hypes the crap out of the leafs(more than usual)
-Games start on Jan.1
-October Luongo shows up.
-Leafs miss playoffs.
-Burke Fired
-Gillis Laughs.
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#1995 WHL rocks

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:30 AM

LOL. ^^
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#1996 Rivera

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:24 AM

Plan:

-Trade Luongo to the leafs.
-Media over-hypes the crap out of the leafs(more than usual)
-Games start on Jan.1
-October Luongo shows up.
-Leafs miss playoffs.
-Burke Fired
-Gillis Laughs.


You forgot, Leaf's then get 1st overal pick which was traded to us in the Luongo deal. Hahahaha
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#1997 DeNiro

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:52 AM

If it was Bozak and Kadri involved in the deal, I would imagine Schroeder would be going the other way. We would have our 3rd line center and Kadri is better than Schroeder.

Luongo
Schroeder
Connauton

For

Bozak
Gardiner
Kadri

We get our third line center for this season, and future depth at center, as well as a depth defenceman.

The Leafs get their number 1 goalie, and a likely playoff birth. They also get a replacement for Kadri on their depth chart, and a solid defensive prospect to replace Gardiner.

Edited by DeNiro, 04 December 2012 - 02:53 AM.

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#1998 King of the ES

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:47 AM

Bozak (mediocre 3rd line 1/2 season rental) and Kadri (Schroeder equivalent, maybe better by a hair) would be a brutal trade for us. Buds get an all star goalie and we get... almost nothing, for I can't see either of these guys being a permanent fixture in any AV lineup when Kesler gets back.


Almost nothing? Bozak's a guy who would immediately help, and could potentially become a mainstay on the roster in the form of a 3rd line C. And I'm a pretty big Schroeder fan, but you've gotta think that Kadri has a fair bit more potential, based on both draft position and AHL production over 3 seasons.

You need to come to grips with the fact that we will not be getting a player that will immediately contribute to the level that Luongo has. We won't be getting back an "All-Star". In that sense, yes, we will be losing this trade. But if Gillis is able to get back these two guys, for a guy as risky as Luongo, two thumbs up from me.
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#1999 King of the ES

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:53 AM

If it was Bozak and Kadri involved in the deal, I would imagine Schroeder would be going the other way. We would have our 3rd line center and Kadri is better than Schroeder.

Luongo
Schroeder
Connauton

For

Bozak
Gardiner
Kadri


I agree with you about Schroeder - he should be going the other way if we're getting Kadri. But I don't think TML will be parting with Gardiner. Put Franson in there instead (if they still have control over him, which seems to be a bit confusing, at this point), and remove Connauton, and that's probably more likely.
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#2000 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:40 AM

If it was Bozak and Kadri involved in the deal, I would imagine Schroeder would be going the other way. We would have our 3rd line center and Kadri is better than Schroeder.

Luongo
Schroeder
Connauton

For

Bozak
Gardiner
Kadri

We get our third line center for this season, and future depth at center, as well as a depth defenceman.

The Leafs get their number 1 goalie, and a likely playoff birth. They also get a replacement for Kadri on their depth chart, and a solid defensive prospect to replace Gardiner.


Buddy,

I live in Toronto and we're getting scrubs if Kadri and Bozak are all we get, bc we won't get Gardiner.

Secondly, Kadri has put up better numbers in the AHL than Schroeder, but Schoeder is a MUCH better hockey player. Kadri is a tweener and a guy who will always put up numbers in the AHL but does nothing in the NHL. He is too small and not tough on his skates (think Petr Nedved rookie season and never gets stronger), has a terrible shot, decent passer, and has average speed.

Schroeder, while small, is pound for pound one of the strongest guys on the Wolves, has terrific speed, is showing he can play at both ends of the ice and has as good if not better offensive instincts/passing/ and a terrific shot. We are not sending him the other way. Moreover, Schroeder has intensity and drive. Kadri has been expected to make a crappy leafs team for 3 years, who are in need of an offensive center and can't crack that lineup???? Think about that for a second, an offensive top ten pick on a crap team in need of a center and he can't make it? He has no drive and will not last a second under AV. Schroeder has worked his tail off and improved every year...I'd not want to see him go because that would be like getting raped twice.

Bozak, is a 2nd line player on the leafs who'd be 3rd or 4th on us. He's decent but needs to get some more size and more consistent. Right coaching and players around him, could become a decent player but would be an avg 2nd liner and decent 3rd.

So unless we get Gardiner or their first, we're getting raped.

Edited by BuretoMogilny, 04 December 2012 - 10:43 AM.

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#2001 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:45 AM

If it was Bozak and Kadri involved in the deal, I would imagine Schroeder would be going the other way. We would have our 3rd line center and Kadri is better than Schroeder.

Luongo
Schroeder
Connauton

For

Bozak
Gardiner
Kadri

We get our third line center for this season, and future depth at center, as well as a depth defenceman.

The Leafs get their number 1 goalie, and a likely playoff birth. They also get a replacement for Kadri on their depth chart, and a solid defensive prospect to replace Gardiner.


You're either a leafs fan, stupid, or retarded.
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#2002 Mike Versace ESQ

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:50 AM

Plan:

-Trade Luongo to the leafs.
-Media over-hypes the crap out of the leafs(more than usual)
-Games start on Jan.1
-October Luongo shows up.
-Leafs miss playoffs.
-Burke Fired
-Gillis Laughs.


best xmas gift ever
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#2003 riffraff

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:51 AM

Gillis is dropping his pants if this is happening.
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#2004 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:56 AM

Buddy,

I live in Toronto and we're getting scrubs if Kadri and Bozak are all we get, bc we won't get Gardiner.

Secondly, Kadri has put up better numbers in the AHL than Schroeder, but Schoeder is a MUCH better hockey player. Kadri is a tweener and a guy who will always put up numbers in the AHL but does nothing in the NHL. He is too small and not tough on his skates (think Petr Nedved rookie season and never gets stronger), has a terrible shot, decent passer, and has average speed.

Schroeder, while small, is pound for pound one of the strongest guys on the Wolves, has terrific speed, is showing he can play at both ends of the ice and has as good if not better offensive instincts/passing/ and a terrific shot. We are not sending him the other way. Moreover, Schroeder has intensity and drive. Kadri has been expected to make a crappy leafs team for 3 years, who are in need of an offensive center and can't crack that lineup???? Think about that for a second, an offensive top ten pick on a crap team in need of a center and he can't make it? He has no drive and will not last a second under AV. Schroeder has worked his tail off and improved every year...I'd not want to see him go because that would be like getting raped twice.

Bozak, is a 2nd line player on the leafs who'd be 3rd or 4th on us. He's decent but needs to get some more size and more consistent. Right coaching and players around him, could become a decent player but would be an avg 2nd liner and decent 3rd.

So unless we get Gardiner or their first, we're getting raped.


Well... That ought to settle CDC affairs regarding any potential TOR/VAN trade. But it won't. You see, most will bypass your post of reason and will continue to drag Luongo in the dirt, hoping for scrap parts from a bottom feeder.
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#2005 Pears

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:58 AM

Gillis is dropping his pants if this is happening.

How? Kadri is a top 10 pick, Bozak is a very solid third line center, and the 2nd could be a high 2nd. A roster player, a top prospect, and a pick. All of which are what MG wants for Luongo.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#2006 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:48 PM

How? Kadri is a top 10 pick, Bozak is a very solid third line center, and the 2nd could be a high 2nd. A roster player, a top prospect, and a pick. All of which are what MG wants for Luongo.


Roster player doesn't mean it has to be a chump. He's right in saying that a 2C on a bottom feeder is a 3C/ 4C, and a kid who cannot crack a bottom feeder team is not even considered on the Canucks.

Careful what you wish for. I would rather aim for quality than quantity. If Luongo could be turned into a legitimate top 2LW/ 2RW, that alone would ease secondary scoring.

I still think a Schneider trade would garner better returns and further push this team toward the Holy Grail. Schneider and change to TOR could easily garner Rielly AND Biggs, but that would not be immediate help.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 04 December 2012 - 01:44 PM.

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#2007 Trelane42

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:14 PM

Buddy,

I live in Toronto and we're getting scrubs if Kadri and Bozak are all we get, bc we won't get Gardiner.

Secondly, Kadri has put up better numbers in the AHL than Schroeder, but Schoeder is a MUCH better hockey player. Kadri is a tweener and a guy who will always put up numbers in the AHL but does nothing in the NHL. He is too small and not tough on his skates (think Petr Nedved rookie season and never gets stronger), has a terrible shot, decent passer, and has average speed.

Schroeder, while small, is pound for pound one of the strongest guys on the Wolves, has terrific speed, is showing he can play at both ends of the ice and has as good if not better offensive instincts/passing/ and a terrific shot. We are not sending him the other way. Moreover, Schroeder has intensity and drive. Kadri has been expected to make a crappy leafs team for 3 years, who are in need of an offensive center and can't crack that lineup???? Think about that for a second, an offensive top ten pick on a crap team in need of a center and he can't make it? He has no drive and will not last a second under AV. Schroeder has worked his tail off and improved every year...I'd not want to see him go because that would be like getting raped twice.

Bozak, is a 2nd line player on the leafs who'd be 3rd or 4th on us. He's decent but needs to get some more size and more consistent. Right coaching and players around him, could become a decent player but would be an avg 2nd liner and decent 3rd.

So unless we get Gardiner or their first, we're getting raped.



Not an expert on Kadri and Schroeder by any means, but I did take in their respective teams’ games with the Heat, and the above is a fair assessment. Schroeder wins in the speed and (all-important) drive departments. Kadri has the edge in production but, alas, tends to be invisible for prolong stretches. The fact that he hasn’t been able to crack a dirt-poor centre Leafs’ position for over a year is the most damming part.

The odds of either having a decent NHL career, to say nothing of a permanent top 6 role, is very questionable at this point. Any move involving either player or a swap would at best be a lateral move and last I checked MG doesn’t do those.

But I think this Nuck fans fascination with Gardiner should really stop. I get that he’s young, cheap, and promising but the LD position is one where we are set, pershaps even more than we like to think if neither Edler or Garrison is able to make a RD transition. What’s the point unless they take back Ballard? I think Burkie would sooner give his right arm than trade him, seeing as he’s one of their very few rebuilding bright spots.

It will be much easier to get a 1st rounder out of them. Beyond that I’d look hard at guys like Kulemin, and maybe Ashton as a throw in. Not much, I know, but if we’re getting raped we may as well insist Burkie use a lubricant.

Edited by Trelane42, 04 December 2012 - 01:14 PM.

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#2008 King of the ES

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:15 PM

Buddy,

I live in Toronto and we're getting scrubs if Kadri and Bozak are all we get, bc we won't get Gardiner.

Secondly, Kadri has put up better numbers in the AHL than Schroeder, but Schoeder is a MUCH better hockey player. Kadri is a tweener and a guy who will always put up numbers in the AHL but does nothing in the NHL. He is too small and not tough on his skates (think Petr Nedved rookie season and never gets stronger), has a terrible shot, decent passer, and has average speed.

Schroeder, while small, is pound for pound one of the strongest guys on the Wolves, has terrific speed, is showing he can play at both ends of the ice and has as good if not better offensive instincts/passing/ and a terrific shot. We are not sending him the other way. Moreover, Schroeder has intensity and drive. Kadri has been expected to make a crappy leafs team for 3 years, who are in need of an offensive center and can't crack that lineup???? Think about that for a second, an offensive top ten pick on a crap team in need of a center and he can't make it? He has no drive and will not last a second under AV. Schroeder has worked his tail off and improved every year...I'd not want to see him go because that would be like getting raped twice.

Bozak, is a 2nd line player on the leafs who'd be 3rd or 4th on us. He's decent but needs to get some more size and more consistent. Right coaching and players around him, could become a decent player but would be an avg 2nd liner and decent 3rd.

So unless we get Gardiner or their first, we're getting raped.


I'll offer a rebuttal to your post with the following, simple question, which always answers every last question to the market value of every last player:

WHERE ARE ALL OF THE OTHER BUYERS FOR LUONGO?














Answer: they don't exist.
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#2009 elvis15

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:20 PM

...
I still think a Schneider trade would garner better returns and further push thins team toward the Holy Grail. Schneider and change to TOR could easily garner Rielly AND Biggs. Not Luongo.

While Schneider was drafted lower than Rielly, he has proven himself at least a little at the NHL level so that helps his value. Perhaps you could argue it would be a deal that's reasonable on paper, but there's no way it's realistic for anyone other than a desperate team to give up that much for a goalie that has yet to be a starter over a significant stretch of games. The Leafs, and most other teams, would not go for that.

I've talked in the past about the potential with New Jersey for a Schneider deal, which has of course been mitigated by both Brodeur and Hedberg signing 2 year extensions. No one would have suggested Adam Larsson straight up for Schneider realistically, although we've seen Larsson's stock come down ever so slightly after being sat in New Jersey and a back injury and Schneider's stock rise a little with a couple of very good starts against LA in the playoffs. Would Toronto trade Rielly and Biggs to New Jersey for Larsson? Maybe, but would New Jersey trade Larsson to us for Schneider straight up? Not likely, even if Brodeur and Hedberg weren't re-signed.

That's not to say I don't agree Schneider would garner a greater return, but is the difference significant enough that it overcomes his potential value to us as our future starter and is the market of teams interested also significantly different enough that we'd be able to get an increased return back versus what we can do with Luongo. Interesting debate and a tough call.

Edited by elvis15, 04 December 2012 - 01:26 PM.

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c3c9e9.pnganimalhousesig.jpg

Tanev is going to EDM. I can put my life savings down on it

 


#2010 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:48 PM

I'll offer a rebuttal to your post with the following, simple question, which always answers every last question to the market value of every last player:

WHERE ARE ALL OF THE OTHER BUYERS FOR LUONGO?














Answer: they don't exist.


The other buyers for Luongo are as busy as the buyers for Luongo; negotiating te next CBA.

That is, if there are buyers for Luongo.

So far, Florida is not a buyer, Toronto is not a buyer and Chicago isn't a buyer.

There are no buyers for Luongo, unless one takes a heavy hit in returns.

Schneider on the other hand, perhaps a package involving Schneider would have made Nash a Canucks. Perhaps.


Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 04 December 2012 - 02:10 PM.

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