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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#2011 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:07 PM

While Schneider was drafted lower than Rielly, he has proven himself at least a little at the NHL level so that helps his value. Perhaps you could argue it would be a deal that's reasonable on paper, but there's no way it's realistic for anyone other than a desperate team to give up that much for a goalie that has yet to be a starter over a significant stretch of games. The Leafs, and most other teams, would not go for that.

I've talked in the past about the potential with New Jersey for a Schneider deal, which has of course been mitigated by both Brodeur and Hedberg signing 2 year extensions. No one would have suggested Adam Larsson straight up for Schneider realistically, although we've seen Larsson's stock come down ever so slightly after being sat in New Jersey and a back injury and Schneider's stock rise a little with a couple of very good starts against LA in the playoffs. Would Toronto trade Rielly and Biggs to New Jersey for Larsson? Maybe, but would New Jersey trade Larsson to us for Schneider straight up? Not likely, even if Brodeur and Hedberg weren't re-signed.

That's not to say I don't agree Schneider would garner a greater return, but is the difference significant enough that it overcomes his potential value to us as our future starter and is the market of teams interested also significantly different enough that we'd be able to get an increased return back versus what we can do with Luongo. Interesting debate and a tough call.


I personally believe that the returns could be much greater for a Schneider trade than a Luongo trade due to the amount of teams that would be involved in negotiations. Schneider's contract is short, affordable and without any restrictions, thereby theoretically involving 29 of 30 teams, whereas Luogo's contract is heavy both in amount and in term, and has a no movement clause, as well as heavy restrictions as to when either party can ask for a waive of those clauses, thereby involving fewer than five teams.

These teams are rumored to be Florida, Toronto and Chicago so far and will not outbid each other with great value as Florida is a rebuilding team, Toronto is even less rich in talent and have bargained their futures for quick fixes, while Chicago would be reluctant to give such talents as Sharp or Kane. Bolland in a Vancouver Canucks is a near impossibility. If one thinks there is animosity between the team and Luongo, wait to see the animosity between the team and Bolland.

A Schneider trade opens numerous possibilities and at such junctures as the trade deadline, teams are known to outbid each other and pay a hefty price for wanted pieces, whereas I can hardly believe that there would be a bidding war for Luongo between Florida and Toronto. A trade between Chicago and Vancouver at the trade deadline would be considered close to treason from whoever loses the trade. Since the Bowman family is involved in Chicago, my guess is the Canucks would be on the losing end.

elvis15, I am glad we can have a rational discussion involving such matters. It is hard to find some objective counterpart to discuss with on this board. And I agree, it is a very tough call.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 04 December 2012 - 02:21 PM.

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#2012 Dogbyte

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:24 PM

What is it about Van fans who positively gush about To Laffer wannabees. Who's dispensing the Laffer koolaid?

For those debating Burrows role, please consult Stevie Y!


You mean the tournament that only had 10% of the players we wanted on it?
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#2013 Dogbyte

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:31 PM

I wouldn't, after watching a few Marlies games I can tell you that Colbourne looks like a confused bear. He doesn't use his size well, doesn't bring a ton of offense. To me he seems like he will become a big 3rd line center, basicly the next Brian Boyle.

I hope he has picked it up for his sake, but I would rather have Kadri.


And you think this is a bad thing?
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#2014 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:54 PM

I've said it before, Kadri and Bozak + pick would be a reasonable return for Luongo. I don't have Kadri in my theoretical Canucks lineup, because I know AV and I know Kadri isn't defensively responsible. Does that make him a complete bust? No, just means he has to spend another year developing in OUR system. I remember the growing pains with Wellwood, he had all kinds of Leaf bad habits including eating an excessive amount of cheeseburgers. Kadri is a top notch dynamic forward, a future top 6 player that is worth the gamble. I also like the optimism directed towards Schroeder, I've stuck with this kid all the way and it's good to see him get some recognition.

The best immediate return from the deal with Toronto would be Bozak. Yes, he would be our 3rd line centre but he would be a productive 3rd line centre, he would give us the ability to attack with 3 lines like when Hodgson was here. Bozak is also good in his own zone, and has seen his offensive numbers increase every year he's been in the league. His stock is climbing, a sound investment for a team this deep.
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#2015 smurf47

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:56 PM

I personally believe that the returns could be much greater for a Schneider trade than a Luongo trade due to the amount of teams that would be involved in negotiations. Schneider's contract is short, affordable and without any restrictions, thereby theoretically involving 29 of 30 teams, whereas Luogo's contract is heavy both in amount and in term, and has a no movement clause, as well as heavy restrictions as to when either party can ask for a waive of those clauses, thereby involving fewer than five teams.

These teams are rumored to be Florida, Toronto and Chicago so far and will not outbid each other with great value as Florida is a rebuilding team, Toronto is even less rich in talent and have bargained their futures for quick fixes, while Chicago would be reluctant to give such talents as Sharp or Kane. Bolland in a Vancouver Canucks is a near impossibility. If one thinks there is animosity between the team and Luongo, wait to see the animosity between the team and Bolland.

A Schneider trade opens numerous possibilities and at such junctures as the trade deadline, teams are known to outbid each other and pay a hefty price for wanted pieces, whereas I can hardly believe that there would be a bidding war for Luongo between Florida and Toronto. A trade between Chicago and Vancouver at the trade deadline would be considered close to treason from whoever loses the trade. Since the Bowman family is involved in Chicago, my guess is the Canucks would be on the losing end.

elvis15, I am glad we can have a rational discussion involving such matters. It is hard to find some objective counterpart to discuss with on this board. And I agree, it is a very tough call.

Of course Schneider would return more because he is better, younger and cheaper with shorter term contract. Management know Schneids is more valuable and still have decided to keep him over Lou. Lou got outplayed by both Thomas and Quick and Schneider came in and gave the team a chance to win. You win from the goalie out. Lou has got us into the playoffs, but his inconsistant play, and lack of poise cost us. No one player is more important that a great goaltender. Doesn't matter who we got for Schneids if Lou can;t do better in the playoffs.
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#2016 riffraff

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:57 PM

How? Kadri is a top 10 pick, Bozak is a very solid third line center, and the 2nd could be a high 2nd. A roster player, a top prospect, and a pick. All of which are what MG wants for Luongo.


........for the leafs.

Kardri doesn't make our team.

Bozak a third line centre.

Lu for peanuts......no thx.
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#2017 D-Money

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:57 PM

I have three words for those who seriously think the Canucks will trade Schneider and keep Luongo:

1) El

2) Oh

3) El
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#2018 smurf47

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:08 PM

The other buyers for Luongo are as busy as the buyers for Luongo; negotiating te next CBA.

That is, if there are buyers for Luongo.

So far, Florida is not a buyer, Toronto is not a buyer and Chicago isn't a buyer.

There are no buyers for Luongo, unless one takes a heavy hit in returns.

Schneider on the other hand, perhaps a package involving Schneider would have made Nash a Canucks. Perhaps.

...again...management thought keeping Schneider a more viable option...
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#2019 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:19 PM

...again...management thought keeping Schneider a more viable option...


Can you find me a direct quote from Gillis that states the decision is made? If you do find one, 2nd source; media (2nd source) quoting Gillis (1st source), I will abide and rest my case.

I don't want any "read between the lines" or "it just makes sense", and I certainly don't want to read such words as "Schneider is more technically sound than Luongo" or "I have forty years goaltending experience in goaltending, trust me"; these aren't facts proving Gillis has personally stated your claim. Do your objective research and present facts.

You're on smurf47.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 04 December 2012 - 03:30 PM.

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#2020 thad

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:42 PM

........for the leafs.

Kardri doesn't make our team.

Bozak a third line centre.

Lu for peanuts......no thx.


Lu for a kid thats got a great chance at being a future star?... id take that and run or maybe counter with something other than bozak. were not going to get the moon for him, if we can get a prospect with that much skill, go for it
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#2021 elvis15

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:57 PM

...
elvis15, I am glad we can have a rational discussion involving such matters. It is hard to find some objective counterpart to discuss with on this board. And I agree, it is a very tough call.

Agreed, especially since the last however many pages have mostly been either people replying to one person or that one person replying to all the others. I've skimmed most of those in that case and not even read them since even if there are good points it's probably an argument that's been made multiple times already.

If the decision to trade Schneider vs Luongo was based only on the merit of the return in the deal, a Schneider trade would be the obvious choice. Now , of course, it depends on what Luongo really does want and what we can get for him compared to the value we'd have by keeping Schneider. Tough call as we've both mentioned.
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#2022 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:04 PM

Agreed, especially since the last however many pages have mostly been either people replying to one person or that one person replying to all the others. I've skimmed most of those in that case and not even read them since even if there are good points it's probably an argument that's been made multiple times already.

If the decision to trade Schneider vs Luongo was based only on the merit of the return in the deal, a Schneider trade would be the obvious choice. Now , of course, it depends on what Luongo really does want and what we can get for him compared to the value we'd have by keeping Schneider. Tough call as we've both mentioned.


Agreed. This is really all I'm asking for; what separates individuals from the masses is the ability to view all sides as objectively as possible. Unfortunately, most posters are buying the popular opinion without further analysis.


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#2023 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:40 PM

And you think this is a bad thing?


No he is a useful bottom 6 player.

But we can get something better than that instead of Colbourne.
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#2024 Get real canuck fans

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:46 PM

Can you find me a direct quote from Gillis that states the decision is made? If you do find one, 2nd source; media (2nd source) quoting Gillis (1st source), I will abide and rest my case.

I don't want any "read between the lines" or "it just makes sense", and I certainly don't want to read such words as "Schneider is more technically sound than Luongo" or "I have forty years goaltending experience in goaltending, trust me"; these aren't facts proving Gillis has personally stated your claim. Do your objective research and present facts.

You're on smurf47.


For a guy who posted a bit earlier about not getting a fair return for Lu because of his NMC(which is wrong he does not have a NMC he has a NTC)when Lu has publicly stated it is time for himself to move on and will do what is best for the organization, if Lu is not a liar he will go wherever MGGM trades his hiny too.
You over and over say how much more we can get for Cory, which I also believe but have you ever heard MGGM say we can get the world for Cory and peanuts for Lu.
Join the real world and accept Lu does not want to be here because when he said "it is time to move on" it was either because he was outplayed for a season and they went with Cory when the teams season was on the line, and does not with to compete for the Number 1 spot(which I do not believe is the case), or because of his family sitution and kids soon(if not now) to be in school he wants to be closer to home, and if he is close to home playing on an eastern based team has much less travel.
Lu stated it is time to move on,,not 2nd or 3rd hand,,,maybe you should listen to what he said and come to grips with it.
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#2025 King of the ES

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:11 PM

elvis15, I am glad we can have a rational discussion involving such matters. It is hard to find some objective counterpart to discuss with on this board. And I agree, it is a very tough call.


That's because you're denying the reality which is that Roberto Luongo is on his way out, and Cory Schneider is not.

I don't think you'll find anybody on this board who will disagree with your claim that Schneider would bring back a higher return. He would. We all get that. But it ain't happening. So you need to wake up.
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#2026 King of the ES

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:13 PM

Lu for peanuts......no thx.


What's the alternative? Hold out for a superstar that will never be offered?

In what direction do you think Luongo's value would go as a trade piece if he's atrophying away on our bench?
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#2027 smurf47

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:36 PM

Agreed. This is really all I'm asking for; what separates individuals from the masses is the ability to view all sides as objectively as possible. Unfortunately, most posters are buying the popular opinion without further analysis.

Can you find me a direct quote from Gillis that states the decision is made? If you do find one, 2nd source; media (2nd source) quoting Gillis (1st source), I will abide and rest my case.

I don't want any "read between the lines" or "it just makes sense", and I certainly don't want to read such words as "Schneider is more technically sound than Luongo" or "I have forty years goaltending experience in goaltending, trust me"; these aren't facts proving Gillis has personally stated your claim. Do your objective research and present facts.

You're on smurf47.

look at all the posts since your challenge ! Krikey, even ES disagrees with you, and thats saying something. You are in total denial and lack objectivity. You are way too emotionally tied to Lou.
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#2028 WiDeN

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:35 PM

I'll offer a rebuttal to your post with the following, simple question, which always answers every last question to the market value of every last player:

WHERE ARE ALL OF THE OTHER BUYERS FOR LUONGO?














Answer: they don't exist.

You know more than anyone I guess. Obviously all the teams interested would have stated they were interested at this point. So, I guess you're right. It's a good thing the NHL adopted the full media disclosure of intent to acquire players.
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#2029 WiDeN

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:39 PM

I personally believe that the returns could be much greater for a Schneider trade than a Luongo trade due to the amount of teams that would be involved in negotiations. Schneider's contract is short, affordable and without any restrictions, thereby theoretically involving 29 of 30 teams, whereas Luogo's contract is heavy both in amount and in term, and has a no movement clause, as well as heavy restrictions as to when either party can ask for a waive of those clauses, thereby involving fewer than five teams.

These teams are rumored to be Florida, Toronto and Chicago so far and will not outbid each other with great value as Florida is a rebuilding team, Toronto is even less rich in talent and have bargained their futures for quick fixes, while Chicago would be reluctant to give such talents as Sharp or Kane. Bolland in a Vancouver Canucks is a near impossibility. If one thinks there is animosity between the team and Luongo, wait to see the animosity between the team and Bolland.

A Schneider trade opens numerous possibilities and at such junctures as the trade deadline, teams are known to outbid each other and pay a hefty price for wanted pieces, whereas I can hardly believe that there would be a bidding war for Luongo between Florida and Toronto. A trade between Chicago and Vancouver at the trade deadline would be considered close to treason from whoever loses the trade. Since the Bowman family is involved in Chicago, my guess is the Canucks would be on the losing end.

elvis15, I am glad we can have a rational discussion involving such matters. It is hard to find some objective counterpart to discuss with on this board. And I agree, it is a very tough call.

Phew... I am super glad we're not trying to trade for Cory Schneider. He would take a lot to get. It's a good thing we have him already.
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#2030 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:46 PM

I asked specifically to smurf47 to come up with evidence stating that Gillis has chosen to go with Schneider vs Luongo. It has nothing to so with what Luongo has said or anyone else for that matter. What I am asking for is factual evidence as a second source (media) quoting Gillis (1st source) on the matter.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 04 December 2012 - 07:06 PM.

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#2031 King of the ES

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:53 PM

I asked specifically to smurf47 to come up with evidence stating that Gillis has chosen ro go with Schneider vs Luongo. It has nothing to so with what Luongo has said or anyone else for that matter. I am asking for is factual evidence as a second source (media) quoting Gillis (1st source) on the matter.


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. MG has spoken freely on the Team1040 numerous times about Luongo and the looming reality of trading him. Working with Roberto to make sure he's in an appropriate situation, blah blah blah.
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#2032 WiDeN

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:59 PM

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. MG has spoken freely on the Team1040 numerous times about Luongo and the looming reality of trading him. Working with Roberto to make sure he's in an appropriate situation, blah blah blah.

Yep, unless Gillis does a complete 180, Luongo is on his way out sooner or later.
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#2033 King of the ES

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:02 PM

You know more than anyone I guess. Obviously all the teams interested would have stated they were interested at this point. So, I guess you're right. It's a good thing the NHL adopted the full media disclosure of intent to acquire players.


Lu went up for sale as soon as the Canucks were eliminated. If there was any strength in the offers, at all, the deal would be done by now. Just like a piece of real estate, the first week is so critical (look at how the Penguins handled Staal, for example).

Lu said himself that he didn't expect to be back in Vancouver in August. Gillis probably had also expected stronger offers, and now is left in the precarious position of holding onto a weakening asset and hoping for some sort of miraculous offer to come around (unlikely, IMO).
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#2034 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:04 PM

look at all the posts since your challenge ! Krikey, even ES disagrees with you, and thats saying something. You are in total denial and lack objectivity. You are way too emotionally tied to Lou.


As per university guidelines, as you very well know since you brought up the 101 class factor not long ago in this thread, to which I challenged you to find 1st and 2nd source regarding some matters, which you in turn, failed to deliver, forums, blogs and other sites such as twitter do not count as evidence.

What you engage in is propaganda, and subsequently selectively chose biased opinion regarding goaltending. It is yours and some others' opinion but it is not fact.

Find me a quote from Gillis (1st source), quoted by a media outlet (2nd source), that states Gillis has chosen Schneider over Luongo.

If you cannot come up with that, then you're kind of at a loss. Whether you buy popular opinion and run with it, or parade your grand experience around as a Godsend is of no matter when matters count.

Blow your own horn all you want, you're not going to convince me Luongo is out until I see a second source from you.

On another note, I would hardly think a decent man with forty years experience in goaltending would engage in name calling. It kind of gives you away as either young or dumb. Neither is my concern.

I want you to prove something for once on this board.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 04 December 2012 - 07:09 PM.

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#2035 Phil_314

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:14 PM

Uh, nice try though?

http://sports.yahoo....54644--nhl.html


EDIT: It'd help if you were aware of teams having more than one jersey, where in this case the owners of the shop customized a Leafs 3rd jersey with Luongo's name and the Van Riemsdyk jersey is one of the regular home jerseys.

Spoiler


LOL Pro Image owner (Luigi) 1:0 Toronto/ Vancouver (at least he got ME there, unless Daren Millard and Pierre McGuire are accurate in their report)
Really hope though that MG would hope his trading chips until when the season starts, that's when the marginal playoff teams may make their offers for Lu, though in the meantime both he and Cory should get roughly the same amount of starts (just like any good goalie controversy)
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#2036 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:18 PM

As per university guidelines, as you very well know since you brought up the 101 class factor not long ago in this thread, to which I challenged you to find 1st and 2nd source regarding some matters, which you in turn, failed to deliver, forums, blogs and other sites such as twitter do not count as evidence.

What you engage in is propaganda, and subsequently selectively chose biased opinion regarding goaltending. It is yours and some others' opinion but it is not fact.

Find me a quote from Gillis (1st source), quoted by a media outlet (2nd source), that states Gillis has chosen Schneider over Luongo.

If you cannot come up with that, then you're kind of at a loss. Whether you buy popular opinion and run with it, or parade your grand experience around as a Godsend is of no matter when matters count.

Blow your own horn all you want, you're not going to convince me Luongo is out until I see a second source from you.

On another note, I would hardly think a decent man with forty years experience in goaltending would engage in name calling. It kind of gives you away as either young or dumb. Neither is my concern.

I want you to prove something for once on this board.


Look dude, read between the lines.

It's as clear as day, Luongo is the one that is going, Cory is the one that staying. We will take our time to get the offer we like the best and i'm glad we are doing so.

But the writing is on the wall, Luongo will be moved eventually.
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#2037 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:33 PM

Look dude, read between the lines.

It's as clear as day, Luongo is the one that is going, Cory is the one that staying. We will take our time to get the offer we like the best and i'm glad we are doing so.

But the writing is on the wall, Luongo will be moved eventually.


Again. It is not my concern who gets traded. Whether it is Luongo or Schneider and yes, I do realize Luongo already has a foot out the door, I couldn't care less about the matter. What I am looking for as of now, is a quote from Gillis that states he chose to go with Schneider over Luongo. And I'm looking for it from smurf47 the great. No need to protect smurf47 from adversity. It is time he delivers on what he spreads; that Gillis chose to go with Schneider. Smurf47, it is your chance to legitimize yourself as a professional individual.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 04 December 2012 - 07:46 PM.

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#2038 TmanVan

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:35 PM

I personally believe that the returns could be much greater for a Schneider trade than a Luongo trade due to the amount of teams that would be involved in negotiations. Schneider's contract is short, affordable and without any restrictions, thereby theoretically involving 29 of 30 teams, whereas Luogo's contract is heavy both in amount and in term, and has a no movement clause, as well as heavy restrictions as to when either party can ask for a waive of those clauses, thereby involving fewer than five teams.



What you "personally believe" are simple facts that everyone else have known about since this whole debate started. That whole paragraph is completely redundant.

What you "personally can't get through your head" is that everything you pointed out about the pro's of Schneiders value and the cons of Luongos value are EXACTLY why we want to keep Schneider and trade Luongo, regardless of the return or who's interested.

We have a chance to rid ourselfs of Luongo's contract, get a decent return for him in a trade, and keep the goalie who is just entering his prime compared to the goalie who is just about to leave his. That is a win all around my friend, its happening....... try to accept it.
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#2039 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:51 PM

Again. It is not my concern who gets traded. Whether it is Luongo or Schneider and yes, I do realize Luongo already has a foot out the door, I couldn't care less about the matter. What I am looking for as of now, is a quote from Gillis that states he chose to go with Schneider over Luongo. And I'm looking for it from smurf47 the great. No need to protect smurf47 from adversity. It is time he delivers on what he spreads; that Gillis chose to go with Schneider. Smurf47, it is your chance to legitimize yourself as a professional individual.


Oh I see.

I think it will be a tandem again if they both are around whenever the season begins.
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#2040 smurf47

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:58 PM

As per university guidelines, as you very well know since you brought up the 101 class factor not long ago in this thread, to which I challenged you to find 1st and 2nd source regarding some matters, which you in turn, failed to deliver, forums, blogs and other sites such as twitter do not count as evidence.

What you engage in is propaganda, and subsequently selectively chose biased opinion regarding goaltending. It is yours and some others' opinion but it is not fact.

Find me a quote from Gillis (1st source), quoted by a media outlet (2nd source), that states Gillis has chosen Schneider over Luongo.

If you cannot come up with that, then you're kind of at a loss. Whether you buy popular opinion and run with it, or parade your grand experience around as a Godsend is of no matter when matters count.

Blow your own horn all you want, you're not going to convince me Luongo is out until I see a second source from you.

On another note, I would hardly think a decent man with forty years experience in goaltending would engage in name calling. It kind of gives you away as either young or dumb. Neither is my concern.

I want you to prove something for once on this board.

And for a guy that keeps spouting"university" You sure don;t seem very bright !!
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