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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#2401 oldnews

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:35 PM

I actually suggested something along those lines early on in the Luongo saga.

I think I was looking for both Schenns in return, but I was giving the Flyers a defenseman as well. It was kind of tongue in cheek, but I was suggesting the Flyers bury Breezy in the minors like the Rags did with Redden. Unfortunately, the new CBA will likely do away with that option.

Thinking outside the box a bit, I wonder what Homer would say to Luo and Edler for the Schenns? Don't get me wrong, I love Eddie, but as a pending UFA, I don't know if we can keep him...


Being a Homer, I don't like that deal. I wouldn't give Luongo one for one for Luke when he was in Toronto, so that aspect doesn't look any sweeter now, which is what would hang up that deal from my perspective. I'm sceptical about Schenn's mobility and awareness - yes, he is young, but those are two things that are difficult to simply develop. I'd consider the Brayden/Edler part of the deal, but I don't like the idea of moving a top 4 blueliner with definite top 2 potential for a young forward - simply harder to come by defensemen of that quality.
I would not be surprised at all, however, if Philly does whatever it takes to move Bryz.
I think a deal with Philly without a blueliner going their way would have to involve their wealth of young forwards. If Edler were going their way, I'd want something more along these lines in return:

Luongo, Edler

Couturier, Simmonds, Coburn

I almost forgot part 2:

Bryz to Toronto for Bozak if they don't like the Kadri deal :bigblush:

A problem for us here in the Luongo thread is that the complications of an extended lockout are making it difficult to come up with reasonably informed proposals. With the UFA status of Edler approaching, and the uncertainty of the future salary cap, it's difficult to know what the unknown possibilities/necessities will be. It could be that moving Luongo for prospects/picks alone will be very necessary to create cap space - it could be that looking for another top 4 will be necessary, if Edler is lost to UFA status, or that packaging Edler will be necessary if a lockout ends and he remains unsigned. The one positive thing that I'd be willing to bet is that Gillis is tracking strategic changes day by day however, and that when there is movement, the Canucks will be prepared out of the gate...

Edited by oldnews, 13 December 2012 - 01:18 PM.

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#2402 riffraff

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:54 PM

^
Best proposal IMO to date.
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#2403 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:48 PM

Being a Homer, I don't like that deal.  I wouldn't give Luongo one for one for Luke when he was in Toronto, so that aspect doesn't look any sweeter now, which is what would hang up that deal from my perspective.   I'm sceptical about Schenn's mobility and awareness - yes, he is young, but those are two things that are difficult to simply develop.   I'd consider the Brayden/Edler part of the deal, but I don't like the idea of moving a top 4 blueliner with definite top 2 potential for a young forward - simply harder to come by defensemen of that quality.
I would not be surprised at all, however, if Philly does whatever it takes to move Bryz.
I think a deal with Philly without a blueliner going their way would have to involve their wealth of young forwards.  If Edler were going their way, I'd want something more along these lines in return:

Luongo, Edler

Couturier, Simmonds, Coburn

I almost forgot part 2:

Bryz to Toronto for Bozak if they don't like the Kadri deal :bigblush:

A problem for us here in the Luongo thread is that the complications of an extended lockout are making it difficult to come up with reasonably informed proposals.  With the UFA status of Edler approaching, and the uncertainty of the future salary cap, it's difficult to know what the unknown possibilities/necessities will be.  It could be that moving Luongo for prospects/picks alone will be very necessary to create cap space - it could be that looking for another top 4 will be necessary, if Edler is lost to UFA status, or that packaging Edler will be necessary if a lockout ends and he remains unsigned.  The one positive thing that I'd be willing to bet is that Gillis is tracking strategic changes day by day however, and that when there is movement, the Canucks will be prepared out of the gate...



Normally, I'd agree regarding Eddie. However, the fact that he would be a UFA factors into my belief that we couldn't get as much for him.

I've seen estimates of 6 million plus for Edler on a new contract and I don't think that it's too far off the mark. The question is, can the Canucks afford him? Or is it better to trade him for a younger, cheaper player who while certainly a downgrade offensively, was top 5 in hits last season and might just blossom into the player he was expected to be coming out of junior, while playing in the Canucks' system?

Don't get me wrong. I love Eddie and would be loathe to trade him, but with the new CBA on then horizon, I'm not convinced that we will be able to re-sign him.
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#2404 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:04 PM

Philadelphia

4. Not decline, but incline...Young stud will not be denied his day, which is due.

Luongo and a 2nd for Couturier and Simmonds

Bryzgalov to Toronto for Kadri. ::D


This is a joke, right? Philly wouldn't give you one of those guys, let alone both.
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#2405 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:06 PM

^
Best proposal IMO to date.


Unfortunately, it requires Philadelphia to trade an untradeable contract.

If you think Toronto, or anyone else, would even take a whiff of Bryzgalov, you are dreaming.
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#2406 Pears

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:08 PM

This is a joke, right? Philly wouldn't give you one of those guys, let alone both.

Buddy, you changed it from Luongo and Edler for Couturier, Simmonds and Coburn to Luongo and a 2nd for Couturier and Simmonds. Pathetic
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#2407 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:11 PM

Unfortunately, it requires Philadelphia to trade an untradeable contract.

If you think Toronto, or anyone else, would even take a whiff of Bryzgalov, you are dreaming.


If you were Toronto and you were offered Bryz for very little would you not do it? I probably would to be honest.
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#2408 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:13 PM

Buddy, you changed it from Luongo and Edler for Couturier, Simmonds and Coburn to Luongo and a 2nd for Couturier and Simmonds. Pathetic


Buddy, I copied oldnews' post directly. He made another proposal which I also responded to.

Weak attempt on your part. Embarrassing.
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#2409 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:16 PM

If you were Toronto and you were offered Bryz for very little would you not do it? I probably would to be honest.


This just shows how uninformed you are on the importance of contracts, but it does explain some of your proposals.

I would be floored if the Flyers were ever actually able to unload him onto another team.

Edited by King of the ES, 13 December 2012 - 05:17 PM.

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#2410 Pears

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:30 PM

Buddy, I copied oldnews' post directly. He made another proposal which I also responded to.

Weak attempt on your part. Embarrassing.

Failed logic really. oldnews edited his post at 1:18pm today, and you replied just 25 minutes ago. So this right now has fingers pointing at you editing his post.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#2411 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:30 PM

I see we're back to normality.


WPG
Schneider
Edler
Ballard
Raymond
2 X 1st

VAN
Byfuglien
Kane
Ladd

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 13 December 2012 - 05:38 PM.

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#2412 smurf47

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:40 PM

This just shows how uninformed you are on the importance of contracts, but it does explain some of your proposals.

I would be floored if the Flyers were ever actually able to unload him onto another team.

When I watched Brez in Phoenix I saw chinks in his armour that were exploitable. I did not believe he was as good as people thought he was in Phoenix, but neither I did I think he was as bad as he played in Philly. Hes an NHL calibre goalie without doubt and I expect him to be better in the future....if there is a future. The big contract he received was not merited in IMO.
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#2413 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:41 PM

Failed logic really. oldnews edited his post at 1:18pm today, and you replied just 25 minutes ago. So this right now has fingers pointing at you editing his post.


"Failed logic" does not make sense. I'm pressing the "Quote" button when I'm replying. That's why they're quoted and you can see what I'm responding to.

This is really difficult for you, isn't it?
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#2414 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:42 PM

I see we're back to normality.


WPG
Schneider
Edler
Ballard
Raymond
2 X 1st

VAN
Byfuglien
Kane
Ladd


What is it with most Canuck fans having an inability to offer reasonable Canuck player valuations?

Winnipeg would laugh.

Edited by King of the ES, 13 December 2012 - 05:43 PM.

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#2415 Pears

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:44 PM

"Failed logic" does not make sense. I'm pressing the "Quote" button when I'm replying. That's why they're quoted and you can see what I'm responding to.

This is really difficult for you, isn't it?

It actually isn't difficult for me, it appears that is difficult for you to figure out that you edited his post and just simply refuse to say you did.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#2416 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:48 PM

It actually isn't difficult for me, it appears that is difficult for you to figure out that you edited his post and just simply refuse to say you did.


You really should seek professional help.

Go to post #2393. Tell me that it's different from what I've quoted in post #2404.
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#2417 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:50 PM

This just shows how uninformed you are on the importance of contracts, but it does explain some of your proposals.

I would be floored if the Flyers were ever actually able to unload him onto another team.


I understand the importance of Contracts completely, I have even stated that the how evaluating a players has changed from "What will he bring to the team" to "What is his contract like"

But lets say all they have to give up was a 4th round pick for Bryz. would you not do that? I would.
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#2418 oldnews

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:58 PM

Normally, I'd agree regarding Eddie. However, the fact that he would be a UFA factors into my belief that we couldn't get as much for him.

I've seen estimates of 6 million plus for Edler on a new contract and I don't think that it's too far off the mark. The question is, can the Canucks afford him? Or is it better to trade him for a younger, cheaper player who while certainly a downgrade offensively, was top 5 in hits last season and might just blossom into the player he was expected to be coming out of junior, while playing in the Canucks' system?

Don't get me wrong. I love Eddie and would be loathe to trade him, but with the new CBA on then horizon, I'm not convinced that we will be able to re-sign him.


Yeah, those are certainly good points - and it would certainly be hard to stomach if this lockout drags beyond UFA day and Eddie signs elsewhere... If the lockout ends and he is unwilling to re-sign I hope the Canucks can manage to get a good young blueliner out of a deal...

Edited by oldnews, 13 December 2012 - 05:58 PM.

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#2419 oldnews

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:02 PM

This is a joke, right? Philly wouldn't give you one of those guys, let alone both.


No not joKing, and not surprised that you object.
On the other hand, if Bryz were a Canuck and Luongo a Flyer, what would we have to give up to land Luongo?
Keep in mind the numerous deals that Holmgren cut recently sending guys with very similar contracts to Luongo, Carter and Richards, out of town in exchange for a stable load of quality young players...

Regarding the claims that you edited my proposal - not true - I made the proposal you quoted, and then another in conversation with RUPERTKBD who brings up some good points about Edler as well as the likelihood that Philly would love to acquire him.

Edited by oldnews, 13 December 2012 - 06:04 PM.

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#2420 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:05 PM

What is it with most Canuck fans having an inability to offer reasonable Canuck player valuations?

Winnipeg would laugh.


I agree they would decline, but I don't think they would laugh.

Schneider = Kane

Edler = to or > Byfuglien

Raymond + Ballard + 1st + 1st > Ladd


The issues they would have with the deal are:
- Edler is a pending UFA
- They don't need Schneids.

If they could trade Pavelec for something good and get Edler with a long term deal, they would surely accept.
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#2421 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:09 PM

But lets say all they have to give up was a 4th round pick for Bryz. would you not do that? I would.


It would be the gamble of all gambles. Of course, it could work, but I just doubt very seriously that any GM would want to expose themselves to that degree of risk. A contract like that is a potential franchise killer.
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#2422 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:11 PM

No not joKing, and not surprised that you object.
On the other hand, if Bryz were a Canuck and Luongo a Flyer, what would we have to give up to land Luongo?
Keep in mind the numerous deals that Holmgren cut recently sending guys with very similar contracts to Luongo, Carter and Richards, out of town in exchange for a stable load of quality young players...


Carter & Richards were traded as 26 year-olds.

And again, there will simply always be more buyers for scoring forwards then there will be for star goaltenders, because there are only 30 starting goalie jobs in the league.
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#2423 oldnews

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:11 PM

If you were Toronto and you were offered Bryz for very little would you not do it? I probably would to be honest.


The Losers can't be choosers...once Luongo is off the market to a better bidder, they'll have to take what they can get...hahaha

Edited by oldnews, 13 December 2012 - 06:15 PM.

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#2424 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:16 PM

I agree they would decline, but I don't think they would laugh.

Schneider = Kane

Edler = to or > Byfuglien

Raymond + Ballard + 1st + 1st > Ladd


Kane is more valuable than Schneider, because they already have Pavelec and because Kane is such a rare talent (also 5 years younger).

This will probably get me flamed, but I'd rather have Byfuglien than Edler. Again, it's the rarity of his skillset.

The last one is by far the biggest disparity. Andrew Ladd is far more valuable than that package. Ballard is not worth a thing, and will probably be a casualty of this lockout. Don't be surprised if he's played his last game as a Canuck. So it's basically Raymond & 2 (late) 1sts for their captain. Not likely.
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#2425 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:16 PM

It would be the gamble of all gambles. Of course, it could work, but I just doubt very seriously that any GM would want to expose themselves to that degree of risk. A contract like that is a potential franchise killer.


See of course they would. Even you backed off your original statement a bit there.

Either way, Toronto has a ton of terrible contracts and a team that is going nowhere, worst case scenerio Bryz doesn't pan out and they are stuck the same way they are right now, best case scenerio, he plays like someone worthy of that contract.

And even Bryz as he was last year is better than Toronto's current goaltending.
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#2426 oldnews

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:17 PM

Carter & Richards were traded as 26 year-olds.

And again, there will simply always be more buyers for scoring forwards then there will be for star goaltenders, because there are only 30 starting goalie jobs in the league.


And again your logic is reductive/undialectical - as there are less than 30 starting goaltenders, and a whole hell of a lot of "scoring forwards"...
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#2427 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:17 PM

The Losers can't be choosers...once Luongo is off the market to a better bidder, they'll have to take what they can get...hahaha


Haha perfect analogy of there situation lol
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#2428 oldnews

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:18 PM

By the way - welcome back King - people here may complain about your tendency to devalue Canucks, but evidently this thread wasn't the same when you weren't around....
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#2429 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:24 PM

Kane is more valuable than Schneider, because they already have Pavelec and because Kane is such a rare talent (also 5 years younger).

This will probably get me flamed, but I'd rather have Byfuglien than Edler. Again, it's the rarity of his skillset.

The last one is by far the biggest disparity. Andrew Ladd is far more valuable than that package. Ballard is not worth a thing, and will probably be a casualty of this lockout. Don't be surprised if he's played his last game as a Canuck. So it's basically Raymond & 2 (late) 1sts for their captain. Not likely.


1. I wasn't comparing them based on Circumstances, I was saying valuewise, Schneider = Kane. which he does.

2. I wouldn't Edler > Byfgulien, Byfuglien isn't a strong skater, is more inconsistent than Edler. I would accept that deal in a heartbeat and I'm sure WPG would too honestly. Byfuglien has a heavy shot, but is basicly Phaneuf 2.0 expect he is worse than Phaneuf IMO.

3. Really you wouldn't do that? There D is probably there most significant need, to be able to add another top 4 able D-man like Ballard would be huge, Raymond is a 2nd/3rd liner right now that can replace Ladd, has the potential to be just as good, and two 1sts is a huge thing.

Think about it this way when you are comparing what they bring on the ice, if you were offered that package for Burrows would you accept? I absoluetly love Burr but I sure would.

Ballard won't be a casualty of the lockout, he still has years remaining on a guaranteed contract, he will be on our team, and after that I would imagine ton's of team would be knocking on the door to get him at 2 Million or less. I would absolutely love to get this guy at anywhere from 1.5 - 2.5.
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#2430 oldnews

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:26 PM

See of course they would. Even you backed off your original statement a bit there.

Either way, Toronto has a ton of terrible contracts and a team that is going nowhere, worst case scenerio Bryz doesn't pan out and they are stuck the same way they are right now, best case scenerio, he plays like someone worthy of that contract.

And even Bryz as he was last year is better than Toronto's current goaltending.


If Burke doesn't want to ante-up for Luongo, he is free to go elsewhere and get what he pays for...
Not sure he could pass on Bryz if Philly snatched Luongo out from under him. There are a lot of Leafs fans sewing the L U O onto their jerseys... Bryz would be a necessary consolation veteran.

I think Philly would definitely consider a pair of deals that wind up being:

Luongo, Edler and Kadri/Bozak

for

Bryzgalov, Couturier, Simmonds, Coburn.

They upgrade in goal, they upgrade their blueline, they downgrade from Couturier to a Leaf, and they give up one of their many young forwards - a right wing who would make this deal very hard for Vancouver to pass up.

Edited by oldnews, 13 December 2012 - 06:28 PM.

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