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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#2431 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:36 PM

If Burke doesn't want to ante-up for Luongo, he is free to go elsewhere and get what he pays for...
Not sure he could pass on Bryz if Philly snatched Luongo out from under him. There are a lot of Leafs fans sewing the L U O onto their jerseys... Bryz would be a necessary consolation veteran.

I think Philly would definitely consider a pair of deals that wind up being:

Luongo, Edler and Kadri/Bozak

for

Bryzgalov, Couturier, Simmonds, Coburn.

They upgrade in goal, they upgrade their blueline, they downgrade from Couturier to a Leaf, and they give up one of their many young forwards - a right wing who would make this deal very hard for Vancouver to pass up.


So Cobrun takes Edler's spot, Couturier takes the 3rd line spot, Simmonds plays on the 2nd line, I like it from out perspective too. Highly unlikely but it could work out for all teams.
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#2432 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:37 PM

See of course they would. Even you backed off your original statement a bit there.


Try reading what I said one more time. Slower.

Either way, Toronto has a ton of terrible contracts and a team that is going nowhere, worst case scenerio Bryz doesn't pan out and they are stuck the same way they are right now, best case scenerio, he plays like someone worthy of that contract.

And even Bryz as he was last year is better than Toronto's current goaltending.


Adding the league's worst contract to a team of already enough bad contracts will not make the situation better.

And I'm not sure why you're so quick to give up on Reimer.
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#2433 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:42 PM

And again your logic is reductive/undialectical - as there are less than 30 starting goaltenders, and a whole hell of a lot of "scoring forwards"...


Put it this way - guys like Richards & Carter could/would be sought-after by nearly every team in the league. There isn't a top-six in the league that either couldn't fit in to.

Luongo, though, is different. Pre-existing investments in other goaltenders severely limit the pool of qualified buyers.
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#2434 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:47 PM

Try reading what I said one more time. Slower.


Haha I see what you did, you edited your post after to change your words, clever.

I guess that's the end of that then.

Adding the league's worst contract to a team of already enough bad contracts will not make the situation better.

And I'm not sure why you're so quick to give up on Reimer.


I never really had faith Riemer would be as good as they thought.

And what do they lose if Bryz doesn't turn out is my point, nothing they will just have to have him until the teams gets better or else maybe they can buy him out, if he does get better, that's a huge win for them.
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#2435 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:49 PM

1. I wasn't comparing them based on Circumstances, I was saying valuewise, Schneider = Kane. which he does.


Doubt it, but OK.

3. Really you wouldn't do that? There D is probably there most significant need, to be able to add another top 4 able D-man like Ballard would be huge, Raymond is a 2nd/3rd liner right now that can replace Ladd, has the potential to be just as good, and two 1sts is a huge thing.


Here's where you lose me:
  • Ballard is not a top-four defenseman.
  • Raymond can not replace Ladd, and he does not have the potential to be just as good. Do you honestly think that Mason Raymond will one day be captaining an NHL team?

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#2436 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:50 PM

By the way - welcome back King - people here may complain about your tendency to devalue Canucks, but evidently this thread wasn't the same when you weren't around....


Agreed. Thanks to BureToMogilny, I came to the realization that King of the ES is really a kitten thinking himself a tiger.

Whereas BureToMogilny is more like a rabbid Tatoo; the midget on the show Fantasy Island.

Welcome back King.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 13 December 2012 - 06:55 PM.

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#2437 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:55 PM

Haha I see what you did, you edited your post after to change your words, clever.

I guess that's the end of that then.


I didn't edit my post. What I said was that it could work out for them, but it would be the gamble of all gambles that I doubt any GM would be "bold" enough to take.

Only way Philly gets rid of Bryz is by trading him to Columbus, and they'd probably have to take back Wisniewski in return and give Columbus a 1st round pick, as well. That could make them Philly buyers for Luongo.
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#2438 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:56 PM

Agreed. Thanks to BureToMogilny, I came to the realization that King of the ES is really a kitten thinking himself a tiger.

Whereas BureToMogilny is more like a rabbid Tatoo; the midget on the show Fantasy Island.

Welcome back King.


I never left, but thanks anyway to you both. Nothing wrong with differing opinions debated in reasonable fashion.
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#2439 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:01 PM

I didn't edit my post. What I said was that it could work out for them, but it would be the gamble of all gambles that I doubt any GM would be "bold" enough to take.

Only way Philly gets rid of Bryz is by trading him to Columbus, and they'd probably have to take back Wisniewski in return and give Columbus a 1st round pick, as well. That could make them Philly buyers for Luongo.


Read post #2409, clearly says it was edited.

And that Bryzgalov to Columbus deal makes 0 sense for Columbus, they have Mason and Bobrovsky and Wisniewski actually isn't bad, he is just overpaid. Bryz is bad and overpaid. A late 1st doesn't compensate for those reasons.
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#2440 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:04 PM

Doubt it, but OK.



Here's where you lose me:

  • Ballard is not a top-four defenseman.
  • Raymond can not replace Ladd, and he does not have the potential to be just as good. Do you honestly think that Mason Raymond will one day be captaining an NHL team?


1. I said top 4 able, on that team he is a top 4 D-man, we don't need to go down this road again, he has all the skills he just needs more opportunity, without having to worry about being benched if he has an off game.

2. My comment is taken out of context, when I say replace Ladd I was talking about his roster spot, not his intangables/leadership exc.
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#2441 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:05 PM

Agreed. Thanks to BureToMogilny, I came to the realization that King of the ES is really a kitten thinking himself a tiger.

Whereas BureToMogilny is more like a rabbid Tatoo; the midget on the show Fantasy Island.

Welcome back King.


:sadno: :shock: :rolleyes: :sadno: :picard:
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#2442 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:08 PM

Read post #2409, clearly says it was edited.

And that Bryzgalov to Columbus deal makes 0 sense for Columbus, they have Mason and Bobrovsky and Wisniewski actually isn't bad, he is just overpaid. Bryz is bad and overpaid. A late 1st doesn't compensate for those reasons.


#2421 was the one where I make the "gambling" comment, not #2409. #2421 was not edited.

If you want a scenario where Luongo ends up in Philadelphia, trading Bryz to CBJ would by far be the clear path to get it done. Mason's flopped since his rookie year, Bobrovsky is an unknown, both are RFA's to-be so not a lot of commitment on CBJ's part.

Bryz goes back to a market where nobody cares about hockey, in which he's excelled twice (Anaheim & Phoenix). The deal could be something like:

To COLUMBUS:
-Ilya Bryzgalov
-Matt Read
-2013 1st

To PHILADELPHIA:
-James Wisniewski

Then we could attempt to make some sort of deal with Philly for Lu, though I wouldn't even really know where to start. Maybe for Luke Schenn?

:bigblush:
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#2443 Riviera82

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:09 PM

1. I wasn't comparing them based on Circumstances, I was saying valuewise, Schneider = Kane. which he does.

2. I wouldn't Edler > Byfgulien, Byfuglien isn't a strong skater, is more inconsistent than Edler. I would accept that deal in a heartbeat and I'm sure WPG would too honestly. Byfuglien has a heavy shot, but is basicly Phaneuf 2.0 expect he is worse than Phaneuf IMO.

3. Really you wouldn't do that? There D is probably there most significant need, to be able to add another top 4 able D-man like Ballard would be huge, Raymond is a 2nd/3rd liner right now that can replace Ladd, has the potential to be just as good, and two 1sts is a huge thing.

Think about it this way when you are comparing what they bring on the ice, if you were offered that package for Burrows would you accept? I absoluetly love Burr but I sure would.

Ballard won't be a casualty of the lockout, he still has years remaining on a guaranteed contract, he will be on our team, and after that I would imagine ton's of team would be knocking on the door to get him at 2 Million or less. I would absolutely love to get this guy at anywhere from 1.5 - 2.5.


Byfuglien had a very big hand in ruining Luongo whereas Edler and Phaneuf have not ruined anybody.
Edler, in my opinion anyway, has also struggled with inconsistency at times.
I would say that if Byfuglien lost some of the weight he gained over the last few months, he would be of equal or maybe even greater value than Edler.
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#2444 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:20 PM

#2421 was the one where I make the "gambling" comment, not #2409. #2421 was not edited.

If you want a scenario where Luongo ends up in Philadelphia, trading Bryz to CBJ would by far be the clear path to get it done. Mason's flopped since his rookie year, Bobrovsky is an unknown, both are RFA's to-be so not a lot of commitment on CBJ's part.

Bryz goes back to a market where nobody cares about hockey, in which he's excelled twice (Anaheim & Phoenix). The deal could be something like:

To COLUMBUS:
-Ilya Bryzgalov
-Matt Read
-2013 1st

To PHILADELPHIA:
-James Wisniewski

Then we could attempt to make some sort of deal with Philly for Lu, though I wouldn't even really know where to start. Maybe for Luke Schenn?

:bigblush:


That wasn't the post I was talking about, I said your original statement, that was referring to #2409

No it wouldn't be, he would have to go to a team that needs goaltending, CBJ has 2 proven NHL calibre goaltenders. Bobrovsky played better than Bryz did at times last year and Mason had his moment's too, Bryz isn't a big upgrade on either if an upgrade at all, it's not worth trading one of your best d-men and burying a good goalie in the minors, leaving him unhappy in the process, to get him with that huge contract. And Philly wouldn't give up Read just to get rid of him.

Edit: and there would have to a deal for Lu pre-existing for them to trade Bryz anyways.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 13 December 2012 - 07:21 PM.

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#2445 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:23 PM

Byfuglien had a very big hand in ruining Luongo whereas Edler and Phaneuf have not ruined anybody.
Edler, in my opinion anyway, has also struggled with inconsistency at times.
I would say that if Byfuglien lost some of the weight he gained over the last few months, he would be of equal or maybe even greater value than Edler.


I don't think that really matter.

Edler is faster & more mobile, makes better plays/more reliable, everything else is pretty even. And I agree Edler has consistency issue's from time to time but he is more consistent than Byfuglien IMO.
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#2446 King of the ES

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:32 PM

No it wouldn't be, he would have to go to a team that needs goaltending, CBJ has 2 proven NHL calibre goaltenders. Bobrovsky played better than Bryz did at times last year and Mason had his moment's too, Bryz isn't a big upgrade on either if an upgrade at all, it's not worth trading one of your best d-men and burying a good goalie in the minors, leaving him unhappy in the process, to get him with that huge contract. And Philly wouldn't give up Read just to get rid of him.


So Columbus has "2 proven NHL calibre goaltenders", yet James Reimer is chopped liver? Explain that one.

You're only looking at Bryz's 2011-12 season, not every other year of his career, which have been good to very good. He'll probably be fine, but he's already done a lot of stupid things in Philly, which may have an effect on his long-term viability there.

Wisniewski is OK, not at all worth $5.5M, though. And Matt Read's a fine player, but is expendable to Philly if the payoff was getting rid of Bryz's deal and perhaps landing Luongo.
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#2447 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:48 PM

So Columbus has "2 proven NHL calibre goaltenders", yet James Reimer is chopped liver? Explain that one.

You're only looking at Bryz's 2011-12 season, not every other year of his career, which have been good to very good. He'll probably be fine, but he's already done a lot of stupid things in Philly, which may have an effect on his long-term viability there.

Wisniewski is OK, not at all worth $5.5M, though. And Matt Read's a fine player, but is expendable to Philly if the payoff was getting rid of Bryz's deal and perhaps landing Luongo.


There's a difference, Columbus has two, Leafs have one, if Columbus hadn't just made that trade for Bobrovsky then it would be a different story.

And as someone already edluded he wasn't exactly a star elsewhere, he had some good moments in Anaheim, then started off strong in Phoenix but wasn't what Philly thought he was, but due to there burning need they took the risk and so far it hasn't paid off.

Wisniewski is a solid top 5 D-man, his cap hit is high but the contract isn't nearly as bad as Bry's due to the contract, and like I said Wisniewski is still a good player who is overpaid, Bryz is a bad players who is overpaid, there is a difference, Wisniewski still brings what is expected Columbus just had to over pay to get him to sign with them, Bryz hasn't played like he can and is overpaid.

Now really think about it, if you were Holmgren would you pay extra to get rid of Bryz and add an over paid D-man then have to pay to replace him or would u give up Bryz for nothing, cut your loses and then pay to get that replacement, I would take the 2nd option.
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#2448 smurf47

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:56 PM

Carter & Richards were traded as 26 year-olds.

And again, there will simply always be more buyers for scoring forwards then there will be for star goaltenders, because there are only 30 starting goalie jobs in the league.

Thus, the greater importance of having as a good a goaltender as you can afford. There still will only be 30 buyers ES, as there still are only 30 teams, no matter how many scorers are for sale. You erred !
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#2449 WiDeN

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:20 PM

I see we're back to normality.


WPG
Schneider
Edler
Ballard
Raymond
2 X 1st

VAN
Byfuglien
Kane
Ladd

There is just no way that a trade of that magnitude is going to happen. I don't see it at all.

It would be the gamble of all gambles. Of course, it could work, but I just doubt very seriously that any GM would want to expose themselves to that degree of risk. A contract like that is a potential franchise killer.

I would like to mention that there is a good chance that we'll see some sort of amnesty buyout clause for contracts signed previous to the new CBA (crosses fingers). This could create a lot of crazy trade scenarios, because teams could take risks on players with large contracts. The new CBA (crosses more fingers) could really change the landscape in this.
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#2450 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:32 PM

So Cobrun takes Edler's spot, Couturier takes the 3rd line spot, Simmonds plays on the 2nd line, I like it from out perspective too. Highly unlikely but it could work out for all teams.


I think in oldnews' proposal, the returns are shared by Toronto and Vancouver...
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#2451 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:33 PM

Try reading what I said one more time. Slower.



Adding the league's worst contract to a team of already enough bad contracts will not make the situation better.

And I'm not sure why you're so quick to give up on Reimer.


I thought Lecavalier's contract was the worst contract in the league...
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#2452 Pears

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:41 PM

Try reading what I said one more time. Slower.



Adding the league's worst contract to a team of already enough bad contracts will not make the situation better.

And I'm not sure why you're so quick to give up on Reimer.

:lol: Bryz's contract is not the worst contract in the league. Ever hear of Scott Gomez?
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#2453 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:58 PM

There is just no way that a trade of that magnitude is going to happen. I don't see it at all.

I would like to mention that there is a good chance that we'll see some sort of amnesty buyout clause for contracts signed previous to the new CBA (crosses fingers). This could create a lot of crazy trade scenarios, because teams could take risks on players with large contracts. The new CBA (crosses more fingers) could really change the landscape in this.


In the event that an amnesty buyout clause is in fact in the new CBA, Should the Canucks practice their amnesty buyout clause on Luongo, I would tend think there would be a restriction that states said team cannot re-sign said player; kind of like offer sheets, and subsequent trade.

This could povide the Canucks with a $4,000,000 goaltender and $5,333,000 for other assets, perhaps another team's bought out asset.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 13 December 2012 - 10:22 PM.

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#2454 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:20 PM

:sadno: :shock: :rolleyes: :sadno: :picard:


LOOK YOU GUYS SAID HIS NAME THREE TIMES AND NOW HE'S HERE.

WAY TO GO.

King has strong opinions and while he doesn't always let rationality and reality get in the way of those opinions for the most part you can't argue that he's a good counterbalance for some of the folks who overvalue some of our players. Most of the time when he's not trying to "win" he brings up excellent talking points.

Sorry...seemed like this thread was turning into a thread about the people talking about Luongo.
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#2455 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:24 PM

Try reading what I said one more time. Slower.



Adding the league's worst contract to a team of already enough bad contracts will not make the situation better.

And I'm not sure why you're so quick to give up on Reimer.


I wonder this all the time as well. I actually still see Reimer as a legitimate option for Toronto. He could go and pull a Raycroft but I really like Reimer. Perhaps with a new tutor in TO coupled with a good chunk of time after his concussion he comes back to form. Given what he's had in front of him I think he's done reasonably well.

People may not be giving up on Reimer though as much as they are assuming Burke is going to. Seems counter intuitive to his days as Canucks GM where he couldn't be paid to give up on Cloutier but it just feels like it's a real possibility.
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#2456 WolfxHaley

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:35 PM

I didn't edit my post. What I said was that it could work out for them, but it would be the gamble of all gambles that I doubt any GM would be "bold" enough to take.

Only way Philly gets rid of Bryz is by trading him to Columbus, and they'd probably have to take back Wisniewski in return and give Columbus a 1st round pick, as well. That could make them Philly buyers for Luongo.

Maybe the same bold GM who thought trading two first round draft picks and a 2nd round draft pick for Phil Kessel...talk about bold.

Edited by SonGoku23, 13 December 2012 - 10:36 PM.

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#2457 oldnews

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:56 PM

So Cobrun takes Edler's spot, Couturier takes the 3rd line spot, Simmonds plays on the 2nd line, I like it from out perspective too. Highly unlikely but it could work out for all teams.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Coburn may not be the same type of player as Edler - but a guy like him who skates well, has great size and moves the puck effectively would still make a good partner for Garrison, who has partnered with stay at home, and offensive puck rushing defensmen. Garrison's versatilitiy imo is a great asset.
Couturier could step onto the third line (and Hodgson would soon be long forgotten) - that line would become downright incredible. Couturier at 19 years old had only 40.3% offensive zone starts last year, scored a respectable 27 points, was also respectable in the face off circle, and had impressive corsi numbers considering the contexts in which he played. He just turned 20 last week. Forget Bjugstad as well - Couturier would be a better option imo.
Simmonds, well kind of goes without saying - 2nd line RW who could also be deadly switching off with Burrows to change things up...

I think Philly would have to think hard about this deal. Holmgren is not shy about pulling the trigger, and he has the quality and quantity up front to afford to make this kind of move when the end result is to make Philly that much stronger on the back end, where they were literally terrible at times last year, particularly in the playoffs.
If Holmgren were to hook up with Burke again and exchange Bryz for the Bozak, they wind up not much worse for the wear up the middle (actually Philly could really use a veteran center), and in the end exchanged Simmonds in order to land the significant upgrades Luo and Edler bring. Holmgren actually comes out ahead of what he managed to land in the Carter and Richards deals (Vorachek, 8th overall (Couturier), Columbus' 3rd rounder, Brayden Schenn, Wayne Simmonds and the Kings 2nd in 2012....
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#2458 oldnews

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:58 PM

Then we could attempt to make some sort of deal with Philly for Lu, though I wouldn't even really know where to start. Maybe for Luke Schenn?

:bigblush:


:P :angry: :lol:
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#2459 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:10 PM

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Coburn may not be the same type of player as Edler - but a guy like him who skates well, has great size and moves the puck effectively would still make a good partner for Garrison, who has partnered with stay at home, and offensive puck rushing defensmen. Garrison's versatilitiy imo is a great asset.
Couturier could step onto the third line (and Hodgson would soon be long forgotten) - that line would become downright incredible. Couturier at 19 years old had only 40.3% offensive zone starts last year, scored a respectable 27 points, was also respectable in the face off circle, and had impressive corsi numbers considering the contexts in which he played. He just turned 20 last week. Forget Bjugstad as well - Couturier would be a better option imo.
Simmonds, well kind of goes without saying - 2nd line RW who could also be deadly switching off with Burrows to change things up...

I think Philly would have to think hard about this deal. Holmgren is not shy about pulling the trigger, and he has the quality and quantity up front to afford to make this kind of move when the end result is to make Philly that much stronger on the back end, where they were literally terrible at times last year, particularly in the playoffs.
If Holmgren were to hook up with Burke again and exchange Bryz for the Bozak, they wind up not much worse for the wear up the middle (actually Philly could really use a veteran center), and in the end exchanged Simmonds in order to land the significant upgrades Luo and Edler bring. Holmgren actually comes out ahead of what he managed to land in the Carter and Richards deals (Vorachek, 8th overall (Couturier), Columbus' 3rd rounder, Brayden Schenn, Wayne Simmonds and the Kings 2nd in 2012....


I personally don't think Holmgren would pull the trigger on that deal, but from our perspective it would be incredible.
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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:20 AM

I personally don't think Holmgren would pull the trigger on that deal, but from our perspective it would be incredible.


Regardless, whether he'd be able to complete a Bryzgalov move would certainly be prerequisite.
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