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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#2461 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:55 AM

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Coburn may not be the same type of player as Edler - but a guy like him who skates well, has great size and moves the puck effectively would still make a good partner for Garrison, who has partnered with stay at home, and offensive puck rushing defensmen. Garrison's versatilitiy imo is a great asset.
Couturier could step onto the third line (and Hodgson would soon be long forgotten) - that line would become downright incredible. Couturier at 19 years old had only 40.3% offensive zone starts last year, scored a respectable 27 points, was also respectable in the face off circle, and had impressive corsi numbers considering the contexts in which he played. He just turned 20 last week. Forget Bjugstad as well - Couturier would be a better option imo.
Simmonds, well kind of goes without saying - 2nd line RW who could also be deadly switching off with Burrows to change things up...

I think Philly would have to think hard about this deal. Holmgren is not shy about pulling the trigger, and he has the quality and quantity up front to afford to make this kind of move when the end result is to make Philly that much stronger on the back end, where they were literally terrible at times last year, particularly in the playoffs.
If Holmgren were to hook up with Burke again and exchange Bryz for the Bozak, they wind up not much worse for the wear up the middle (actually Philly could really use a veteran center), and in the end exchanged Simmonds in order to land the significant upgrades Luo and Edler bring. Holmgren actually comes out ahead of what he managed to land in the Carter and Richards deals (Vorachek, 8th overall (Couturier), Columbus' 3rd rounder, Brayden Schenn, Wayne Simmonds and the Kings 2nd in 2012....


Now this is exactly what I meant by thinking of other options than Toronto and Florida, plain and simple. Luongo/ Edler for Simmonds/ Couturier/ Coburn is an excellent trade for both sides.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 14 December 2012 - 12:58 AM.

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#2462 King of the ES

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:21 AM

Thus, the greater importance of having as a good a goaltender as you can afford. There still will only be 30 buyers ES, as there still are only 30 teams, no matter how many scorers are for sale. You erred !


Then where are all the buyers for Luongo? "Only 30 teams" means a lack of available jobs. Not a lot of teams are looking for a goaltender. That's why it's more difficult to trade a guy like Luongo than it is to trade a guy like Richards or Carter.
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#2463 King of the ES

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:24 AM

:lol: Bryz's contract is not the worst contract in the league. Ever hear of Scott Gomez?


Gomez's contract expires in about 18 months. Bryz's expires in 2020.

I'll take Gomez, thanks.
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#2464 King of the ES

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:25 AM

I thought Lecavalier's contract was the worst contract in the league...


At least Lecavalier:
  • is still a productive player
  • is not a headcase (unlike Bryz)
Give me him over Bryzgalov, very easily.
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#2465 King of the ES

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:28 AM

I wonder this all the time as well. I actually still see Reimer as a legitimate option for Toronto. He could go and pull a Raycroft but I really like Reimer. Perhaps with a new tutor in TO coupled with a good chunk of time after his concussion he comes back to form. Given what he's had in front of him I think he's done reasonably well.

People may not be giving up on Reimer though as much as they are assuming Burke is going to. Seems counter intuitive to his days as Canucks GM where he couldn't be paid to give up on Cloutier but it just feels like it's a real possibility.


In 2011, he didn't do "reasonably well", he was spectacular and almost led them to the playoffs.

It is a possibility, though it would go against everything that Burke has claimed to stand for (as it relates to the lifetime contract).
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#2466 King of the ES

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:31 AM

Maybe the same bold GM who thought trading two first round draft picks and a 2nd round draft pick for Phil Kessel...talk about bold.


The logic of that deal was not that bad, from Toronto's perspective; it just didn't turn out good for them. Burke simply underestimated how bad the Leafs were. He took a gamble, and he lost.

Kessel is a very, very good player, so it's hard to really say that they "lost".
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#2467 King of the ES

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:36 AM

Now this is exactly what I meant by thinking of other options than Toronto and Florida, plain and simple. Luongo/ Edler for Simmonds/ Couturier/ Coburn is an excellent trade for both sides.


Can't see Philly ever doing that. Everybody knows what the situation is with Edler, lowering his value. And both Simmonds & Couturier fit in so well last year. Can't imagine them having interest in moving either.
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#2468 Riviera82

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:30 AM

I don't think that really matter.

Edler is faster & more mobile, makes better plays/more reliable, everything else is pretty even. And I agree Edler has consistency issue's from time to time but he is more consistent than Byfuglien IMO.


My point referring to Byfuglien was that his size and ability to play and be a general pain in the a$$ was a big factor in turning a player like Luongo into something of a basketcase in the playoffs.
If Byfuglien could do that to Luongo (who was brilliant in his 3 series before the encounters with Chicago), he could probably do that to another good goaltender, which of course doesn't show up on any stats sheet.
Edler has done nothing of the sort. Good player nonetheless.
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#2469 brokenlegs

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:11 AM

I had a vision of the future: Schneider gets injured - either in Switzerland or at the beginning of next season....but somehow it all works out in the end and we win the cup. You heard it here first.

- ps. 12/21/2012 isn't the end of the world - 08/11/2082 is.

Edited by brokenlegs, 14 December 2012 - 08:12 AM.

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#2470 Pears

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:18 AM

Gomez's contract expires in about 18 months. Bryz's expires in 2020.

I'll take Gomez, thanks.

So you'd rather pay a guy thats only scored 2 goals in 2 years $7.5 million a year, than pay a guy $5.6 million that can win you games when he's playing decent? Not sure if serious...
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

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#2471 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:32 AM

In 2011, he didn't do "reasonably well", he was spectacular and almost led them to the playoffs.

Yeah I thought that was implied with my analogy using Raycrofts career. Point of contention though...actually I'm just correcting you but the leafs did not almost make it to the playoffs which means he didn't almost lead them their. I mean they didn't finish dead last in their division but he played a great 37 games and the team finished 12 points out of the playoffs with 80 points. (Exact same scenario last season except he only played 34 games)

It is a possibility, though it would go against everything that Burke has claimed to stand for (as it relates to the lifetime contract).

Burke doesn't like "lifetime" contracts but push comes to shove he's generally showing he's more willing to move on things now then he was when say he was Canucks GM. Perhaps I'm wrong though and he just hasn't found his Cloutier yet but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a new goalie in TO next season (whenever the frack that's going to be) with a similar if not marginally improved position.
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#2472 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:34 AM

The logic of that deal was not that bad, from Toronto's perspective; it just didn't turn out good for them. Burke simply underestimated how bad the Leafs were. He took a gamble, and he lost.

Kessel is a very, very good player, so it's hard to really say that they "lost".

This is silly semantics.

End of the Kessel is a good player and that withstanding they lost the living hell out of that trade.
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#2473 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:35 AM

So you'd rather pay a guy thats only scored 2 goals in 2 years $7.5 million a year, than pay a guy $5.6 million that can win you games when he's playing decent? Not sure if serious...

Both situations you've got a problem. One it's short term and the other it's long term. I think a lot of GM's would take the short term problem and make the best of it.
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#2474 Pears

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:49 AM

Both situations you've got a problem. One it's short term and the other it's long term. I think a lot of GM's would take the short term problem and make the best of it.

I can see your's and King's points but I'd just rather have Bryzgalov.

Edited by Steven Stamkos' Mullet, 14 December 2012 - 08:49 AM.

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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#2475 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:00 AM

I can see your's and King's points but I'd just rather have Bryzgalov.

I'd rather have neither. ;)
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#2476 smurf47

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:25 AM

Then where are all the buyers for Luongo? "Only 30 teams" means a lack of available jobs. Not a lot of teams are looking for a goaltender. That's why it's more difficult to trade a guy like Luongo than it is to trade a guy like Richards or Carter.

No one, including you, know how many teams are in the running for Lou! The lack of a deal is due to uncertainty of the new cba and cap. MG is asking a high price, which may have excluded some teams. Richards and Carter only had 1/2 dozen suitors , again, due to cap space and dollars.
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#2477 smurf47

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:27 AM

In 2011, he didn't do "reasonably well", he was spectacular and almost led them to the playoffs.

It is a possibility, though it would go against everything that Burke has claimed to stand for (as it relates to the lifetime contract).

Its a great thing that Toronto dumped Francois Allaire because I believ he really messed up Reimer and the Monster. I believe Reimer has a big upside and just needs his game tweaked and a decent team in front of him. I really doubt Lou can shine in that environment !!
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#2478 King of the ES

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:32 AM

This is silly semantics.

End of the Kessel is a good player and that withstanding they lost the living hell out of that trade.


Says the guy who defends the Ballard trade to death. Rich.
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#2479 King of the ES

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:41 AM

So you'd rather pay a guy thats only scored 2 goals in 2 years $7.5 million a year, than pay a guy $5.6 million that can win you games when he's playing decent? Not sure if serious...


Not sure if you understand how contracts work, but Gomez's (as referenced before) expires in 2014, while Bryzgalov's expires in 2020. One is far, far more risky than the other.
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#2480 King of the ES

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:42 AM

My point referring to Byfuglien was that his size and ability to play and be a general pain in the a$$ was a big factor in turning a player like Luongo into something of a basketcase in the playoffs.
If Byfuglien could do that to Luongo (who was brilliant in his 3 series before the encounters with Chicago), he could probably do that to another good goaltender, which of course doesn't show up on any stats sheet.
Edler has done nothing of the sort. Good player nonetheless.


Totally agree. Edler's very good, but Byfuglien's just more rare and valuable. Don't forget that he can also either play forward or defence. Crazy versatility.
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#2481 WiDeN

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:43 AM

Says the guy who defends the Ballard trade to death. Rich.

At the time, that trade looked OK, until Ballard had a couple off years and Grabner scored 40 goals. F. We lost that one for sure, but I still think Ballard can be a lot better than we've seen. I hope he get more ice time, and maybe powerplay.
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#2482 WolfxHaley

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:21 AM

The logic of that deal was not that bad, from Toronto's perspective; it just didn't turn out good for them. Burke simply underestimated how bad the Leafs were. He took a gamble, and he lost.

Kessel is a very, very good player, so it's hard to really say that they "lost".

I am not taking anything away from Kessel, but when you look at it they traded Seguin, Hamilton and I believe Knight. No matter which way you look at it that was a bold move so I don't see why trading a 4th round pick ( as in the example ) is so much more a risk to them.
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#2483 oldnews

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:54 AM

At least Lecavalier:

  • is still a productive player
  • is not a headcase (unlike Bryz)
Give me him over Bryzgalov, very easily.



Ok, we'll give you your Lecavalier, Frolik, throw in that floater Kessel, and all the other ironically grossly overvalued players on other teams that you want, and the rest of us will watch your team rack up lottery picks... because it would SUCK!
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#2484 oldnews

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:03 PM

The logic of that deal was not that bad, from Toronto's perspective; it just didn't turn out good for them. Burke simply underestimated how bad the Leafs were. He took a gamble, and he lost.

Kessel is a very, very good player, so it's hard to really say that they "lost".


Underestimating how bad the Leafs are has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Kessel is a big part of how bad the Leafs are - I wouldn't expect someone who brouses scoring stats to see that, but he's not a guy I'd want as a "core" player, and he does not play hockey in his own end of the ice.

It is patently obvious to most of us what Burke's miscalculations were - overestimated how good Kessel is, and underestimated the value of those picks.
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#2485 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:27 PM

Can't see Philly ever doing that. Everybody knows what the situation is with Edler, lowering his value. And both Simmonds & Couturier fit in so well last year. Can't imagine them having interest in moving either.


Check out the trade deadline deals that involve soon to be UFAs. You'll see Edler's value then.
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#2486 Pears

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:34 PM

Check out the trade deadline deals that involve soon to be UFAs. You'll see Edler's value then.

If Edler still wants too much money at the trade deadline, say he wants between $6.5-$7 million ($6-$6.3 is the max I'd re-sign him at), I would put him on the block and see what teams that need D are willing to offer.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#2487 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:43 PM

Says the guy who defends the Ballard trade to death. Rich.

that's all you got?
I guess I must be right.
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#2488 King of the ES

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:38 PM

Underestimating how bad the Leafs are has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Kessel is a big part of how bad the Leafs are - I wouldn't expect someone who brouses scoring stats to see that, but he's not a guy I'd want as a "core" player, and he does not play hockey in his own end of the ice.

It is patently obvious to most of us what Burke's miscalculations were - overestimated how good Kessel is, and underestimated the value of those picks.


Yes, which directly contradicts your first sentence. Burke didn't expect the two picks offered to be top 5's. He made a gamble, and lost.

But to say what you have about Phil Kessel, come on. In 3 years with Toronto, he has 30, 32, and 37 goals. 55, 64, and 82 points. 25 years old. Not bad. To say that he's part of the problem is ridiculous. He has done his job. The team's had zero stability and there's nearly zero complementary offensive skill on that team.
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#2489 King of the ES

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:40 PM

that's all you got?
I guess I must be right.


What more needs to be said?

I guess, to you, "hindsight" is only a valid excuse when you're talking about the mistakes of the Canucks' GM.
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#2490 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:02 PM

Yes, which directly contradicts your first sentence. Burke didn't expect the two picks offered to be top 5's. He made a gamble, and lost.

But to say what you have about Phil Kessel, come on. In 3 years with Toronto, he has 30, 32, and 37 goals. 55, 64, and 82 points. 25 years old. Not bad. To say that he's part of the problem is ridiculous. He has done his job. The team's had zero stability and there's nearly zero complementary offensive skill on that team.


Yes.

TOR
Luongo
Edler
Ballard
Raymond
2X 1st

VAN
Phaneuf
Kessel
Rielly

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 14 December 2012 - 04:02 PM.

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