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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#2491 Gollumpus

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:53 PM

But to say what you have about Phil Kessel, come on. In 3 years with Toronto, he has 30, 32, and 37 goals. 55, 64, and 82 points. 25 years old. Not bad. To say that he's part of the problem is ridiculous. He has done his job. The team's had zero stability and there's nearly zero complementary offensive skill on that team.


In that time his +/- has been -8, -20 and -10.

regards,
G.
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#2492 Gollumpus

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:04 PM

Yes.

TOR
Luongo
Edler
Ballard
Raymond
2X 1st

VAN
Phaneuf
Kessel
Rielly
Kadri


Maybe if you took Raymond out of the deal... :P


I'm not sure Toronto would go for this trade.

They are already sorta' kinda' in a re-building phase and losing Rielly (and perhaps Kadri) would really set them back. Losing Phaneuf (love him or hate him) would also set the Leafs defense back a notch. Losing both Rielly and Phaneuf would be pretty devastating for them, Gardiner or no Gardiner.

Ballard is a good d-man and would help them some, and Edler would work only if he re-signed with the Leafs (and I'd bet there are pretty long odds of that happening).

And what are they going to do for top-6 scoring if Kessel leaves town? Raymond can fill in nicely as a top-9 forward, but the Leafs a goodly supply of those, no?

Even the two 1sts (which I'm not sure Gillis would give up) will do much to help the Leafs (assuming they are bottom-5 picks).


regards,
G.
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#2493 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:59 PM

My point referring to Byfuglien was that his size and ability to play and be a general pain in the a$$ was a big factor in turning a player like Luongo into something of a basketcase in the playoffs.
If Byfuglien could do that to Luongo (who was brilliant in his 3 series before the encounters with Chicago), he could probably do that to another good goaltender, which of course doesn't show up on any stats sheet.
Edler has done nothing of the sort. Good player nonetheless.


Byfuglien's versatility is something very interesting, that's true.

But for our team (Since this was about King saying he would trade they 1 for 1) Edler is the better fit, we need mobile defensemen, which Byfuglien isn't IMO, he can be a PWF or a good D-man with size and a good shot but we need mobility, hockey sense from the back end and an all round good game from our top defender, all thing I believe Edler has more so than Buff.

I have no hate for Big Buff anymore I actually like him, but for this team I would rather have Edler.

Not sure if you understand how contracts work, but Gomez's (as referenced before) expires in 2014, while Bryzgalov's expires in 2020. One is far, far more risky than the other.


Bryzgalov brings more to the team than Gomez is, if I had to take on of those two (Which I wouldn't want to) I would take Bryz easily, Gomez is a nightmare, even putting the dollars aside he brings nothing on the ice, he's small and brings no offense to compensate for it. Bryz can be a good goalie and he plays very well at times even last season his problem is that he is just extremely inconsistent.

At the time, that trade looked OK, until Ballard had a couple off years and Grabner scored 40 goals. F. We lost that one for sure, but I still think Ballard can be a lot better than we've seen. I hope he get more ice time, and maybe powerplay.


Grabs only scored 30 I'm pretty sure?
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#2494 oldnews

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:05 PM

Yes, which directly contradicts your first sentence. Burke didn't expect the two picks offered to be top 5's. He made a gamble, and lost.

But to say what you have about Phil Kessel, come on. In 3 years with Toronto, he has 30, 32, and 37 goals. 55, 64, and 82 points. 25 years old. Not bad. To say that he's part of the problem is ridiculous. He has done his job. The team's had zero stability and there's nearly zero complementary offensive skill on that team.


Which directly contradicts your point. Evidently Kessel did not make the Leafs any better - and therefore his impact was miscalclulated - to say what I have about Kessel is backed up by the fact the oppostion has scored 38 more goals than the Leafs when he is on the ice - actually, that's quite a lot.
Definitely part of the problem. No grit, frequent no-show, no defensive sense whatsoever (further taxing the Leafs blueline and young goaltenders) - in a nutshell, over-rated.
A bad fit for a team like Toronto that can't afford to subsidize all his downside. Kessel might make sense on a team with a stud blueline where his floating is safeguarded, effective two-way forwards, and could afford a one-trick wonder that they throw out situationally and on the power play. In Laffstown, another big part of the problem.

I'm seeing an evident trend though - King love for Kessel, Phaneuf, Gardiner, Reimer etc....
I think we may have a closet Leafs fan here.
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#2495 oldnews

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:12 PM

Yes.

TOR
Luongo
Edler
Ballard
Raymond
2X 1st

VAN
Phaneuf
Kessel
Rielly


No.
No.
How many ways can a person say no?
Just awful.
Massive overpayment.
My lord, who wants the Leafs core?
Just no.
Six pieces, including a top ten goaltender, all star defenseman (far better than Phaneuf btw), another top 6/4 blueliner, two first rounders... OMG NO!
A vacancy and a floater/cherry picker coming back this way.

That's a hell of a lot to give up to get Reilly.
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#2496 WolfxHaley

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:13 PM

Which directly contradicts your point. Evidently Kessel did not make the Leafs any better - and therefore his impact was miscalclulated - to say what I have about Kessel is backed up by the fact the oppostion has scored 38 more goals than the Leafs when he is on the ice - actually, that's quite a lot.
Definitely part of the problem. No grit, frequent no-show, no defensive sense whatsoever (further taxing the Leafs blueline and young goaltenders) - in a nutshell, over-rated.
A bad fit for a team like Toronto that can't afford to subsidize all his downside. Kessel might make sense on a team with a stud blueline where his floating is safeguarded, effective two-way forwards, and could afford a one-trick wonder that they throw out situationally and on the power play. In Laffstown, another big part of the problem.

I'm seeing an evident trend though - King love for Kessel, Phaneuf, Gardiner, Reimer etc....
I think we may have a closet Leafs fan here.

uh oh... What have I started haha, I should have known king would turn my original example into a kessel love fest. Anyway I completely agree with you here.
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#2497 WolfxHaley

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:16 PM

No.
No.
How many ways can a person say no?
Just awful.
Massive overpayment.
My lord, who wants the Leafs core?
Just no.
Six pieces, including a top ten goaltender, all star defenseman (far better than Phaneuf btw), another top 6/4 blueliner, two first rounders... OMG NO!
A vacancy and a floater/cherry picker coming back this way.

That's a hell of a lot to give up to get Reilly.

king is going to have some strong words for you haha.
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#2498 King of the ES

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:18 PM

In that time his +/- has been -8, -20 and -10.


Yeah, his team sucks. Zack Kassian's -2. OMG! Bust!
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#2499 King of the ES

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:23 PM

Which directly contradicts your point. Evidently Kessel did not make the Leafs any better - and therefore his impact was miscalclulated - to say what I have about Kessel is backed up by the fact the oppostion has scored 38 more goals than the Leafs when he is on the ice - actually, that's quite a lot.
Definitely part of the problem. No grit, frequent no-show, no defensive sense whatsoever (further taxing the Leafs blueline and young goaltenders) - in a nutshell, over-rated.
A bad fit for a team like Toronto that can't afford to subsidize all his downside. Kessel might make sense on a team with a stud blueline where his floating is safeguarded, effective two-way forwards, and could afford a one-trick wonder that they throw out situationally and on the power play. In Laffstown, another big part of the problem.


He arrived as a 22 year-old, he's now 25. What did you expect? Sidney Crosby he is not. And look at what the Leafs have surrounded him with. Imagine how much worse off they'd be without him!

And your "one-trick wonder" comment is rich. What exactly does Stamkos do, besides score goals? Has he made Tampa better? They didn't even make the playoffs last year! If a guy can score 30 annually, that's a pretty valuable "one-trick", is it not?
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#2500 Pears

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:26 PM

No.
No.
How many ways can a person say no?
Just awful.
Massive overpayment.
My lord, who wants the Leafs core?
Just no.
Six pieces, including a top ten goaltender, all star defenseman (far better than Phaneuf btw), another top 6/4 blueliner, two first rounders... OMG NO!
A vacancy and a floater/cherry picker coming back this way.

That's a hell of a lot to give up to get Reilly.

Dude. Put your hate for the Leafs aside for a minute and just imagine this atrocious proposal became true.

Kessel - 1st line sniper, capable of 35-50 goals (he would get 50 playing with the Sedins)
Phaneuf - One of the best hitters in this game and arguably a top ten D man
Kadri - Former top ten pick, still has potential
Rielly - Future top 2-4 offensive D man

We all know Burke isn't dumb enough to offer this package but MG would be an idiot to not accept this in less than a heartbeat.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

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#2501 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:40 PM

No.
No.
How many ways can a person say no?
Just awful.
Massive overpayment.
My lord, who wants the Leafs core?
Just no.
Six pieces, including a top ten goaltender, all star defenseman (far better than Phaneuf btw), another top 6/4 blueliner, two first rounders... OMG NO!
A vacancy and a floater/cherry picker coming back this way.

That's a hell of a lot to give up to get Reilly.


I disagree, the only thing that worries me is giving up Two first's, if it was 1 I would likely pull the trigger in a heartbeat.

Imagine Kessel in our top 6, Phaneuf isn't quite as good as Edler IMO but he is close and maybe on our team can regain his form from first few years in Calgary, and Rielly is Rielly.

We give up Lu would is expendable, I'm a big Ballard fan but this is a deal I would certaintly include him in, Raymond doesn't mean much in this deal other than to fill a top 9 forward spot since they lose Kessel, and of course as I said the two 1sts are a really scaring price, but it is something I would highly consider and probably do.

From Toronto's perspective, 0 chance they do it IMO, Burke still believe Phaneuf is the same Phaneuf he was in Calgary, he thinks Kessel the main piece to his team upfront, and he would have taken Rielly over Yakupov or anyone else in last years draft.

Very unrealistic and no chance it gets accepted.

And your "one-trick wonder" comment is rich. What exactly does Stamkos do, besides score goals? Has he made Tampa better? They didn't even make the playoffs last year! If a guy can score 30 annually, that's a pretty valuable "one-trick", is it not?


Stamkos back checks, is decent at faceoffs and actually has a much better defensive game than Kessel, plus the offense he supplies far superseeds and weakness he has (and there aren't any glaring one's) If Kessel could put up 60 Goals, I doubt anyone here would even mention his weakness's.
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#2502 WolfxHaley

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:42 PM

Dude. Put your hate for the Leafs aside for a minute and just imagine this atrocious proposal became true.

Kessel - 1st line sniper, capable of 35-50 goals (he would get 50 playing with the Sedins)
Phaneuf - One of the best hitters in this game and arguably a top ten D man
Kadri - Former top ten pick, still has potential
Rielly - Future top 2-4 offensive D man

We all know Burke isn't dumb enough to offer this package but MG would be an idiot to not accept this in less than a heartbeat.

The way I understand it is he's just poking King fueling the fire haha.
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#2503 Pears

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:51 PM

The way I understand it is he's just poking King fueling the fire haha.

That could be true haha.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

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#2504 WolfxHaley

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:20 PM

That could be true haha.

However, with the amount of ridiculousness in this thread you really never know.
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#2505 shazzam

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:32 PM

Kessel is a great scorer but he is as soft as they come.
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#2506 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:17 PM

What more needs to be said?

I guess, to you, "hindsight" is only a valid excuse when you're talking about the mistakes of the Canucks' GM.

No it's not actually. However I have also said the in hindsight the canucks lost the Ballard trade. You seem to have forgotten that. However if you're comparing the magnitude of those two trades as being similar you've lost your marbles. Unless you're just bringing that up for giggles which seems kind of pointless dontchathunk?

In any case...leafs lost that trade plain and simple. Arguing otherwise is stupid. That doesn't change the fact that Kessel is a good/great player.

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 14 December 2012 - 08:18 PM.

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#2507 Riviera82

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:31 PM

In that time his +/- has been -8, -20 and -10.

regards,
G.


Yes but haven't most or all of the Leafs been minus players in that time?
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#2508 Riviera82

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:36 PM

Byfuglien's versatility is something very interesting, that's true.

But for our team (Since this was about King saying he would trade they 1 for 1) Edler is the better fit, we need mobile defensemen, which Byfuglien isn't IMO, he can be a PWF or a good D-man with size and a good shot but we need mobility, hockey sense from the back end and an all round good game from our top defender, all thing I believe Edler has more so than Buff.

I have no hate for Big Buff anymore I actually like him, but for this team I would rather have Edler.




Bryzgalov brings more to the team than Gomez is, if I had to take on of those two (Which I wouldn't want to) I would take Bryz easily, Gomez is a nightmare, even putting the dollars aside he brings nothing on the ice, he's small and brings no offense to compensate for it. Bryz can be a good goalie and he plays very well at times even last season his problem is that he is just extremely inconsistent.



Grabs only scored 30 I'm pretty sure?


Good points. I'm still not entirely sure who I'd rather have, both of them on the team would be ideal.
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#2509 theminister

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

Floating this one....

Lou
Raymond

for

Neuvirth
Johansson
Ward
1st
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#2510 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

Good points. I'm still not entirely sure who I'd rather have, both of them on the team would be ideal.


Yeah imagine having both. What a sweet top 4 that would give us.
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#2511 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:45 PM

Floating this one....

Lou
Raymond

for

Neuvirth
Johansson
Ward
1st


WSH declines, they dont need a goalie and they probably dont wanna give up Johansson.
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#2512 theminister

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:00 PM

WSH declines, they dont need a goalie and they probably dont wanna give up Johansson.


They already have too many centres though in Ribiero, Backstrom, Laich, Beagle, Perreault and Hendricks.

I'm not sure they will want to go with Holtby straight off the top. Far too risky to waste the prime years of their franchise players. He's even less proven than Schneider.
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#2513 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:06 PM

They already have too many centres though in Ribiero, Backstrom, Laich, Beagle, Perreault and Hendricks.

I'm not sure they will want to go with Holtby straight off the top. Far too risky to waste the prime years of their franchise players. He's even less proven than Schneider.


Johansson and other can play wing, Center's are often the most versitile players, and Johansson is just one of those players that teams don't wanna trade unless there is an overpayment, a young player like that who has been a pleasent surprise is something I doubt anyteam would be willing to part with

As for the goaltending situation, your forgetting about Nuevirth, who was there starter prior to his injury, he is probably just as good if not better than Holtby, probably better and he also more proven.

Both goalies can handle the amount of games they will get in this tandem, they have other needs there assets could be better served towards.
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#2514 Pears

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:13 PM

Floating this one....

Lou
Raymond

for

Neuvirth
Johansson
Ward
1st

That's alright value-wise. Maybe we could swap Johansson for Brouwer and take out Ward?
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#2515 shazzam

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:31 PM

I don't see WSH being interested in Luongo. Especially at that price
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#2516 sampy

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:35 PM

Floating this one....

Lou
Raymond

for

Neuvirth
Johansson
Ward
1st


What about:

Lu, Ballard, Raymond, Sauve, Sweatt, 2nd

For

Green, Johansson, Neuvirth

With the emergence of Carlsson and Alzner and Green's injury problems, he may be attainable.
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#2517 elvis15

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:00 PM

Yes but haven't most or all of the Leafs been minus players in that time?

Last year they ranged from +3 to -19. Kessel, with -10, was 20th out of 27 skaters.

2010/2011 they ranged from +14 to -29. Kessel, with -20, was 29 out of 30 skaters (Bozak was -29!).

The year before that, +8 to -16. Kessel, with -8, was 20th out of 26 skaters.

Regardless of if the team's +/- is bad or good, Kessel's been well into the bottom half of all Leafs players. In each of those years, he was first in scoring on the team (82, 64, 55).
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#2518 Pears

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:03 PM

What about:

Lu, Ballard, Raymond, Sauve, Sweatt, 2nd

For

Green, Johansson, Neuvirth

With the emergence of Carlsson and Alzner and Green's injury problems, he may be attainable.

Edler and Green would be a sweet pair while we still have Edler. Not sure if Alzner and Carlson are ready for top pair minutes but I think they'll be fine

Alzner - Carlson
Ballard - Schultz
Orlov - Hamrlik

Not bad but not great either.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#2519 WiDeN

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:51 PM

Yes.

TOR
Luongo
Edler
Ballard
Raymond
2X 1st

VAN
Phaneuf
Kessel
Rielly

That is not the type of trade that will happen with Toronto. We are definitely not swapping that many core players.

Grabs only scored 30 I'm pretty sure?

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#2520 riffraff

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:52 PM

1. I wasn't comparing them based on Circumstances, I was saying valuewise, Schneider = Kane. which he does.

2. I wouldn't Edler > Byfgulien, Byfuglien isn't a strong skater, is more inconsistent than Edler. I would accept that deal in a heartbeat and I'm sure WPG would too honestly. Byfuglien has a heavy shot, but is basicly Phaneuf 2.0 expect he is worse than Phaneuf IMO.

3. Really you wouldn't do that? There D is probably there most significant need, to be able to add another top 4 able D-man like Ballard would be huge, Raymond is a 2nd/3rd liner right now that can replace Ladd, has the potential to be just as good, and two 1sts is a huge thing.

Think about it this way when you are comparing what they bring on the ice, if you were offered that package for Burrows would you accept? I absoluetly love Burr but I sure would.

Ballard won't be a casualty of the lockout, he still has years remaining on a guaranteed contract, he will be on our team, and after that I would imagine ton's of team would be knocking on the door to get him at 2 Million or less. I would absolutely love to get this guy at anywhere from 1.5 - 2.5.


In sorry but;

Ladd is a cup wearing captain who beat the daylights out of Kesler.

Mayson Raymond. Well, that's where it ends

Edited by riffraff, 14 December 2012 - 10:54 PM.

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CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.




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