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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#2731 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:26 PM

I actually appreciate King.

He keeps the thread exciting through this terrible time.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 18 December 2012 - 09:26 PM.

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#2732 smurf47

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:17 PM

I actually appreciate King.

He keeps the thread exciting through this terrible time.

I'd actually just like to hear him say hes wrong once in awhile or agree to something. He loves to stir the honey pot ! I wonder if hes ever played hockey !
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#2733 WiDeN

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:25 PM

I'd actually just like to hear him say hes wrong once in awhile or agree to something. He loves to stir the honey pot ! I wonder if hes ever played hockey !

When we were agreeing with King was when BureMogilny guy was here, and none of us want to revisit that.

Don't fix it if it aint broke.



Yeah King, I'm sorry if I ripped on you a couple times. You are the hamster in this thread's little hamster wheel.

I mean that in the nicest way possible.
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#2734 sampy

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:59 PM

Help me here ! If Phoenix gave up more shots on goal than just 2 NHL teams, which don;t include shots that miss the net...or blocked shots, how does that translate into a defensive system? Teams love that...lots of delected and tipped shots...lots of scoring chances! Does not compute to me sir.


The Coyotes allowed shots on goal are very close to most teams, only 0.1 behind Vancouver. Their system allows for lots of outside shots and low scoring opportunitues, collapsing on goal, and cutting out high scoring opportunities. The Coyotes give their opponents the shots from the outside and Smith's big positional goaltending excels under this system. I agree that Smith is a good goalie, best in the league at puck handling, but if he was on Philly he would'nt dominate like he does with Phoenix. And yes Smith is better than Bryz. IMO Bryz isn't very good compared to other teams starters.


Not exactly a fair way to evaluate. I would think most would agree that last years Canucks were not as good as the year before defensively , but using the Canucks backup Schneiders numbers were fair bit better last year, going from a 2.23 gaa and .929 sv % in 2010-11 to 1.96 and ,937 sv % in 2011-12.
In 2011-12 Smith was 2.21 GAA with a .930 sv percentage while in Bryz in 2010-11 was 2.48 and .921 sv percentage, Smith's stats are quite a bit better .


IMO Smith's team was better than Bryz's team and their stats are not that far apart.
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#2735 smurf47

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:09 PM

The Coyotes allowed shots on goal are very close to most teams, only 0.1 behind Vancouver. Their system allows for lots of outside shots and low scoring opportunitues, collapsing on goal, and cutting out high scoring opportunities. The Coyotes give their opponents the shots from the outside and Smith's big positional goaltending excels under this system. I agree that Smith is a good goalie, best in the league at puck handling, but if he was on Philly he would'nt dominate like he does with Phoenix. And yes Smith is better than Bryz. IMO Bryz isn't very good compared to other teams starters.




IMO Smith's team was better than Bryz's team and their stats are not that far apart.

If you look at team stats as posted by the NHL. Phoenix is 3rd last in NHL in shots allowed. I suggest u look them up on NHL site. We will have to agree to disagree but appreciate your views,
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#2736 sampy

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:42 PM

If you look at team stats as posted by the NHL. Phoenix is 3rd last in NHL in shots allowed. I suggest u look them up on NHL site. We will have to agree to disagree but appreciate your views,

No I agree with you. The Coyotes allowed 31.6 shots per game, though pretty well the entire league is within 3 or so shots allowed. But what I am saying is they are not high quality scoring chances. They allow a lot of perimeter shots, more than most teams. The collapsing on goal allows for lots of shots from the boards.
I think Smith is a good goalie, but he would be more exposed on high offense teams.

Edited by sampy, 18 December 2012 - 11:44 PM.

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#2737 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:42 PM

When we were agreeing with King was when BureMogilny guy was here, and none of us want to revisit that.

Don't fix it if it aint broke.



Yeah King, I'm sorry if I ripped on you a couple times. You are the hamster in this thread's little hamster wheel.

I mean that in the nicest way possible.


I agree with WiDeN
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#2738 elvis15

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:57 PM

Theres not much reason to believe that over the course of a season that the quality of shots would change from one goalie to the next. It will be interesting to see how Smith and Schneider play next season. The one thing that is certain and without arguement is that they both handle and redirect shots far better than Luongo,.Unless this your area of expertise, its purely speculation on your part. It takes being there and looking for these things that makes the difference. Smith is a better goalie than Bryz with fewer holes in his game and i still like Bryz. I'd say Bryz and Lou are different but comparable in ability.

I don't say it because I believe Bryz is better, but I do believe stats that are used incorrectly can prove anything you want. In this case, taking shots on net alone into account isn't a reliable indicator of who's better. I agree that visible evidence (watching them play with analysis in mind) is helpful, but a secondary stat like quality of shots or scoring chances is even better.

If you're watching Smith's actions (or reactions) but not considering the shot quality, then you can help prove Smith's ability but not the quality of Phoenix's defensive system by quoting shot totals. Call it a cautionary tale rather than trying to spark further debate.

Well mr informed,,,you the one who discussed about year after year, is career umbers not the totals of their year after year?
I was referring to a particular part of your argument when you made the following statement," Bryz's contract looks worse if he doesn't improve his play, where Luongo at least shows up in the regular season each year"
Is also good to know all anyone has to do is read cdc to know what the new CBA is going to have in it,,who knew,, the last CBA there was no such rule against being penalized for sending players to the minors, and when and if they sign a new CBA who knows if that is something that will bargained away or not, so please do not say it like you heard it on TSN and it is a fact.

Look at the statement you bolded again. The first part makes no qualification as to year over year as you claim, and the second only mentions Luongo's consistency in the regular season each year. To apply 'each year' to the first part doesn't make sense (his contract looks worse if he doesn't improve each year?). My other content is all about comparing Bryz playing well when with Phoenix versus Smith's play last year, so that should be a clue that I didn't think he was playing bad prior to last year anyway.

As far as what's in the CBA or not, even if you weren't aware of the cap penalties for large contracts in the AHL the point about the waivers still stands. There's no way he would clear and losing him for nothing would be an incredibly stupid move.

Yeah I see, the 37 SA average doesn't mean much then but his stats are alot better than Bryz's.

You say they beat in Chicago in 6 with 5 overtimes, but Smith is the reason that:

A) There were that many overtime games

B) they beat Chicago.

I don't know if he will be able to continue it, (Honestly that isn't really what the initial discussion was about.) But I'm pretty much like you. I don't believe either is solid elite status but last season Smith was the biggest reason they were that good, and I don't think is a stretch at all to say he carried the team, atleast more than the team carried him.

Anyways lets move on to back to Roberto like you said.

This is a point I am trying to get across whenever King or someone else bring up Lu's contract then compares it to someone like Bryz or Lecavalier, the difference is Roberto actually earns the money he gets paid. The only issue with his contract is the length which I don't think is quite the issue other do other than it being a bargaining chip in trade negotiations.

I guess we did get off track comparing goalies when the initial question was if Smith benefits from Phoenix's defensive system - or if they even have a good defensive system. I think they do, and Smith does benefit, and he'll only be proven a top goalie if he can sustain a high level of play. An elite goalie would succeed regardless of the team they were on, and Smith doesn't have the sample size yet to call him a top or an elite goalie, although I do think he is a good one.

Absolutely Luongo is better value for his contract than Lecavalier, and if Bryz doesn't step it up, then better value than Bryz too. Even with the trouble Luongo has had (however it's defined depending on who's asking) he's the better player if you factor in his cap hit is lower than both players and his stats are better than Bryz's last season. Sure his contract length is two years past either of the other players, and he's a year older than both, but without evidence to suggest the other two will play better, Luongo is better value as you said.

One way to compare teams is to look at Labarbera's stats. On Bryz's 2011 team he had a 3.26 GAA and .909 SP. in 2012 he had a 2.56 and .911. Just a point.
IMO the 2012 Coyotes were a far better team. Smith is a good goalie on an average team. Under the Coyotes system, he is an All Star. Bryz looked a lot better under Tippett, not Philly's high offense.

It's not proof in and of itself that the same goalie improved his stats from one year to the next, but it could suggest the team played better and would affect Smith's stats to some degree. The point that Schneider's stats line improved while Luongo's went down is a counter-point, but again that could be explained away or supported by other stats. Interesting point though.
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#2739 elvis15

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:14 AM

If you look at team stats as posted by the NHL. Phoenix is 3rd last in NHL in shots allowed. I suggest u look them up on NHL site. We will have to agree to disagree but appreciate your views,

No I agree with you. The Coyotes allowed 31.6 shots per game, though pretty well the entire league is within 3 or so shots allowed. But what I am saying is they are not high quality scoring chances. They allow a lot of perimeter shots, more than most teams. The collapsing on goal allows for lots of shots from the boards.
I think Smith is a good goalie, but he would be more exposed on high offense teams.

Yup, as I mentioned earlier Boston had very similar shots against the year they won the cup. Their system was the same where they forced shots to the outside and collapsed on rebounds and scoring chances in close. The shots against didn't increase in the playoffs like they did for Phoenix last year, but the point still stands.
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#2740 smurf47

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:24 AM

Yup, as I mentioned earlier Boston had very similar shots against the year they won the cup. Their system was the same where they forced shots to the outside and collapsed on rebounds and scoring chances in close. The shots against didn't increase in the playoffs like they did for Phoenix last year, but the point still stands.

Both you and Sampy talk about the Phoenix system. Are either of you residents of Arizona and or watch them from the stands? I've been coaching and evaluating goalies for a very long time, so, please give me a little credit when I make statements because I know what I see and factor in many things. Pretty much all teams want shots from perimeters, clog the front of the net and minimize chances. All i'm disagreeing on here is the"system" or effectivness of it because stats and visual observation contradict your opinion of Phoenix defense.
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#2741 smurf47

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:19 AM

I agree with King, Smith is a product of a good Phoenix system. Their system eliminates high scoring chances and all secondary opportunities. They allow a lot of shot from outside areas on purpose and then collapse on the net. The year before Phoenix he cleared waivers with TB, not one team wanted him. I am not saying Smith is a bad goalie as goalie coach Sean Burke has helped him out tremendously but he is a product of a well coached Phoenix team, just like Bryz was. Labarbera had a 2.54 GAA and .911 SP last year! Smith wouldn't be half as good on TB or Edm.

Labarbera benefited last year by playing weaker teams...a big reason why his stats were better ! I also agree with you that Burke is a huge benefit in Phoenix for both goalies, much more so than there supposed shut down defense . Its the same as Lou in 2010-11 with Melanson working with Lou. Unfortunately , last season, lou deviated from the plan and his effectiveness and stats both suffered.
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#2742 King of the ES

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:32 AM

Oh, so you know that there aren't multiple teams driving up Luongo's price, do you?

We do know that there has been interest in Luongo from more than one team (yes, I used the past tense). Whether or not those teams are still actively talking trade, have lost interest, or playing the waiting game, remains to be seen. However, we do know that there has been interest by more than one team. We have no reason to assume that every team (other than perhaps Toronto) has lost interest in Luongo, even if we do not hear daily reports/rumours regarding offers which have been put forward..

So, to strengthen your side of this discussion, and to show that what you are saying isn't merely assumption being passed off as fact, could you do the following:

1.) Please supply us with signed affidavits from all 29 of the other GM's in the NHL, in which they state that they are not interested in acquiring Roberto Luongo (if you want, we can assume Burke's in, so make it 28).

2.) Further, could you also get them to submit sworn statements that, once the new CBA is signed, they do not intend to make any effort to acquire Luongo for their respective teams.

Thanking you in advance.

regards,
G.


Utterly pointless post, as I had agreed with the guy's response that I don't know that there aren't teams driving up his price. My point was that if his take was that I don't know that there aren't multiple teams bidding up the price, the flipside is that he also doesn't know that there are multiple buyers doing this.

So, nice try, but you were a little late.
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#2743 King of the ES

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:38 AM

King, I know you're a busy guy, but you've gotta find time for ALL your fans, including me.


Roster changes were not very material, as you said yourself. Ed Jovanovski...Vernon Fiddler...come on.

So your argument is that Mike Smith just morphed into Patrick Roy, after a very disappointing 4-year stint in Tampa? Nothing to do with Dave Tippett's system?
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#2744 King of the ES

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:41 AM

Help me here ! If Phoenix gave up more shots on goal than just 2 NHL teams, which don;t include shots that miss the net...or blocked shots, how does that translate into a defensive system? Teams love that...lots of delected and tipped shots...lots of scoring chances! Does not compute to me sir.


Shot total doesn't give an indication of shot quality. Mason Raymond flicking a wrist shot from the blue line with no traffic probably ain't going in.
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#2745 King of the ES

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:43 AM

I'd actually just like to hear him say hes wrong once in awhile or agree to something. He loves to stir the honey pot ! I wonder if hes ever played hockey !


Nobody is ever right or wrong. This is a forum where people post opinions, which are never right or wrong.
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#2746 eretz canucks

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:16 AM

Floating this one....

Lou
Raymond

for

Neuvirth
Johansson
Ward
1st

I would do this in a heart beat, WSH says no though


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#2747 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:35 AM

Both you and Sampy talk about the Phoenix system. Are either of you residents of Arizona and or watch them from the stands? I've been coaching and evaluating goalies for a very long time, so, please give me a little credit when I make statements because I know what I see and factor in many things. Pretty much all teams want shots from perimeters, clog the front of the net and minimize chances. All i'm disagreeing on here is the"system" or effectivness of it because stats and visual observation contradict your opinion of Phoenix defense.


Now you're begging for recognition?
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#2748 smurf47

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:54 AM

Shot total doesn't give an indication of shot quality. Mason Raymond flicking a wrist shot from the blue line with no traffic probably ain't going in.

But I'm there watching ES...so... I get a pretty good idea of shot quality..its always been a factor in goalie game evaluations. Mike Smith makes a lot of highlight saves, including the odd Raymondesque flip shot. I would expect much the same quality of shots throughout the league, which just solidifies Mike Smith;s success last season, as it can be said that most goalies face the same level of quality shots. Mike Smith faced, on average, the 3rd most shots on goal, of any type.
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#2749 smurf47

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:56 AM

Roster changes were not very material, as you said yourself. Ed Jovanovski...Vernon Fiddler...come on.

So your argument is that Mike Smith just morphed into Patrick Roy, after a very disappointing 4-year stint in Tampa? Nothing to do with Dave Tippett's system?

Probably a lot less to do with Tippett and a lot more to do with Sean Burke !
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#2750 smurf47

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:58 AM

Nobody is ever right or wrong. This is a forum where people post opinions, which are never right or wrong.

But you sure do try hard to hammer them home mr negative.
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#2751 WiDeN

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:04 AM

Was Elliot buoyed by a defensive system, or was he just that good?

I lean the other way on this one. I think St. Lu played a purely defensive system that helped Elliot have inflated stated.

What's the comparison between the 2 goalies?
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#2752 smurf47

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:20 AM

Was Elliot buoyed by a defensive system, or was he just that good?

I lean the other way on this one. I think St. Lu played a purely defensive system that helped Elliot have inflated stated.

What's the comparison between the 2 goalies?

St Louis is a much more defensive team than Phoenix. They gave up, 5 shots per game less than the 31.6 shots given up by Phoenix. Thats 410 shots over 82 games. If a goalie stops 90%(just an easy number to work with) thats 41 goals per season or .5 goals a game Had to help Elliot !!
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#2753 D-Money

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:49 AM

You guys have to stop trying to evaluate a defensive system by how many shots it gives up. The type of shots allowed is far more indicative. (Although, stats to back it up are harder to find and are far more abstract.)

When a defensive team is playing the passing lanes extremely effectively, quite often all the offensive team can do is throw a low-percentage shot from the outside. So they get shots - perhaps more than if they were making multiple-pass plays - but not many of significance.

Edited by D-Money, 19 December 2012 - 11:51 AM.

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#2754 Millerdraft

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:01 PM

Defense Independent Goalie Rating:

http://www.sloanspor...ence.com/?p=648

All shots are not created equal.
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#2755 elvis15

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:22 PM

Both you and Sampy talk about the Phoenix system. Are either of you residents of Arizona and or watch them from the stands? I've been coaching and evaluating goalies for a very long time, so, please give me a little credit when I make statements because I know what I see and factor in many things. Pretty much all teams want shots from perimeters, clog the front of the net and minimize chances. All i'm disagreeing on here is the"system" or effectivness of it because stats and visual observation contradict your opinion of Phoenix defense.

I certainly didn't watch a ton of Phoenix's games, but from what I did see supported by the announcers and analysts covering them recognizing the same thing about a strong defensive system, it's my opinion that's the case. Some teams are better than others at playing that type of system regardless of how many want to do so and teams with similar shots against are not guaranteed to be on par.

What I hadn't heard from you to this point was you seeing a similarly increased amount of scoring chances or quality of shots in the times you've been watching them. What you have been saying is you've watched a lot of Mike Smith so you know of his quality and that the shots against were high. Again, quality of shots/scoring chances ranked against the rest of the league would put that to rest even without shots against totals. Shots alone don't specifically support that assertion.

You did mention in a later post you'd expect much the same quality of shots throughout the league, but that's just not the case as each team has their differences and some are more successful, either due to personnel or system used or both.

I did a little research to try and get some visible proof to support this (we're off topic already, whaddya do?) and found a couple of interesting links. One was a description of scoring chances when compared to Fenwick (shots attempted for/against excluding blocked shots, similar to Corsi) . It's not quite the same as shots against but a good description of how that can be affected. The other two were links to the Kings and the Devils scoring chances in the SCF last season.

I put the SCF scoring chance data up against the shot totals for those games and came back with this: LA had only a 14% advantage in the shot totals but then had a 43% advantage in contributions to scoring chances over NJ.

Now that's only a sample of 6 games and it's considering contributions to scoring chances rather than something more definitive, but it's a good example of how NJ wasn't that far behind on the amount of shots they took but they weren't generating chances at nearly the same rate as the Kings. That's not looking at goals for/against, just scoring chances, and that can be a significant point when considering how effective a team is defensively. The Kings did a good job defensively as a team ass much as Quick did a good job stopping the puck on the shots he did see.

I found an image generated from chance and shot data that correlated shooting percentage with distance the shot was taken from the. Looking at that alone, it indicates if a team is facing more shots from the outside (like we're suggesting with Phoenix) then the opposing team's shooting percentage will be lower.
Posted Image

I also found a Fenwick report for last season and Fenwick Close (a specific part of the Fenwick metric when the score is close) for Phoenix was actually 19th lowest in the league while their shots against per 60 was 2nd highest. Their Fenwick results puts them closer to the middle of the league (they aren't generating enough chances themselves but also not allowing among the most chances against in the NHL) while their shots against tells us they are giving up among the most, well, shots against. The suggests they have a lower percentage of scoring chances against when compared to shots against that at least some other teams in the league.

You mentioned St Louis. They had the highest Fenwick Close in the league last season, and the 2nd lowest shots against per 60. The stopped shots and generated more chances for themselves than they allowed from the opposition which is in part why they were contending for the President's Trophy.

The Canucks by comparison (just to try and loop this back to Lu and Schnieds) had the 8th highest Fenwick, and the 7th highest shots against. It was a little more back and forth than we would have liked in chances as a result. Luongo did ok despite that and Schneider did quite well in some tougher starts.
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#2756 smurf47

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:23 PM

You guys have to stop trying to evaluate a defensive system by how many shots it gives up. The type of shots allowed is far more indicative. (Although, stats to back it up are harder to find and are far more abstract.)

When a defensive team is playing the passing lanes extremely effectively, quite often all the offensive team can do is throw a low-percentage shot from the outside. So they get shots - perhaps more than if they were making multiple-pass plays - but not many of significance.

In todays NHL its a lot about dump and chase. Shots generated from passes from deep in the offensive zone are usually bang bang and of higher quality. There are so many variables involved, thats why we use charts to evaluate as much criteria as possible. All things being equal, the cream usually rises to the top..ie Mike Smith , Schneider, Quick, Rinne etc
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#2757 smurf47

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:29 PM

I certainly didn't watch a ton of Phoenix's games, but from what I did see supported by the announcers and analysts covering them recognizing the same thing about a strong defensive system, it's my opinion that's the case. Some teams are better than others at playing that type of system regardless of how many want to do so and teams with similar shots against are not guaranteed to be on par.

What I hadn't heard from you to this point was you seeing a similarly increased amount of scoring chances or quality of shots in the times you've been watching them. What you have been saying is you've watched a lot of Mike Smith so you know of his quality and that the shots against were high. Again, quality of shots/scoring chances ranked against the rest of the league would put that to rest even without shots against totals. Shots alone don't specifically support that assertion.

You did mention in a later post you'd expect much the same quality of shots throughout the league, but that's just not the case as each team has their differences and some are more successful, either due to personnel or system used or both.

I did a little research to try and get some visible proof to support this (we're off topic already, whaddya do?) and found a couple of interesting links. One was a description of scoring chances when compared to Fenwick (shots attempted for/against excluding blocked shots, similar to Corsi) . It's not quite the same as shots against but a good description of how that can be affected. The other two were links to the Kings and the Devils scoring chances in the SCF last season.

I put the SCF scoring chance data up against the shot totals for those games and came back with this: LA had only a 14% advantage in the shot totals but then had a 43% advantage in contributions to scoring chances over NJ.

Now that's only a sample of 6 games and it's considering contributions to scoring chances rather than something more definitive, but it's a good example of how NJ wasn't that far behind on the amount of shots they took but they weren't generating chances at nearly the same rate as the Kings. That's not looking at goals for/against, just scoring chances, and that can be a significant point when considering how effective a team is defensively. The Kings did a good job defensively as a team ass much as Quick did a good job stopping the puck on the shots he did see.

I found an image generated from chance and shot data that correlated shooting percentage with distance the shot was taken from the. Looking at that alone, it indicates if a team is facing more shots from the outside (like we're suggesting with Phoenix) then the opposing team's shooting percentage will be lower.
Posted Image

I also found a Fenwick report for last season and Fenwick Close (a specific part of the Fenwick metric when the score is close) for Phoenix was actually 19th lowest in the league while their shots against per 60 was 2nd highest. Their Fenwick results puts them closer to the middle of the league (they aren't generating enough chances themselves but also not allowing among the most chances against in the NHL) while their shots against tells us they are giving up among the most, well, shots against. The suggests they have a lower percentage of scoring chances against when compared to shots against that at least some other teams in the league.

You mentioned St Louis. They had the highest Fenwick Close in the league last season, and the 2nd lowest shots against per 60. The stopped shots and generated more chances for themselves than they allowed from the opposition which is in part why they were contending for the President's Trophy.

The Canucks by comparison (just to try and loop this back to Lu and Schnieds) had the 8th highest Fenwick, and the 7th highest shots against. It was a little more back and forth than we would have liked in chances as a result. Luongo did ok despite that and Schneider did quite well in some tougher starts.

Good work !!
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#2758 elvis15

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:07 PM

Good work !!

In the end, I could have just said wait and see what happens to the goalies next year. If he can repeat his performance, he'll have convinced a lot more people. But what can I say, I like stats, and I think he was helped by the team in front of him and may not be as capable in another system. He's still one of if not the top handling goalie in the league, and had shown good promise in Dallas, but such a large regression two years ago in Tampa was definitely concerning.

As you said, the cream rises to the top, and should regardless of the situation rather than falling if they are that good.
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Tanev is going to EDM. I can put my life savings down on it

 


#2759 smurf47

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:27 PM

In the end, I could have just said wait and see what happens to the goalies next year. If he can repeat his performance, he'll have convinced a lot more people. But what can I say, I like stats, and I think he was helped by the team in front of him and may not be as capable in another system. He's still one of if not the top handling goalie in the league, and had shown good promise in Dallas, but such a large regression two years ago in Tampa was definitely concerning.

As you said, the cream rises to the top, and should regardless of the situation rather than falling if they are that good.

Its Like Luongo in 2010-11...had a great season, adjusted his play with Melanson;s help and I was very impressed with his play. Unfortuately, whether is was the pressure of the playoffs or something else, he reverted to his old style which no longer is effective for him. Probably because he was an easy read and too predictable. Last year he continued with his old style, and only he knows why. Whatever reason, he faltered last year, reflected in his stats and compared to Schneider's. Unless Lou tweaks his game to 2011 levels, I don;t see him being able to improve or find his previous form or great level of success. I don;t see Lou(cream) rising to the top !
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#2760 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:08 PM

Nobody is ever right or wrong. This is a forum where people post opinions, which are never right or wrong.


Care to admit you're wrong on that one?
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