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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#2791 WiDeN

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:01 PM

Raymond and Ballard in that deal should get us something better than that.

I am not a huge fan of Toronto as a trading partner either, because I don't think we'll get a great return.
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#2792 VIC_CITY

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:47 PM

Seriously? Raymond and Ballard have negative value!! Especially Ballard.

The only reason MG re-signed Raymond was for depth/potential trade (fingers crossed).

The fact that people on CDC keep suggesting Raymond/Ballard trades is embarrassing....like there's 29 retarted GMs waiting to get fleeced.
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#2793 Pears

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:59 PM

Seriously? Raymond and Ballard have negative value!! Especially Ballard.

The only reason MG re-signed Raymond was for depth/potential trade (fingers crossed).

The fact that people on CDC keep suggesting Raymond/Ballard trades is embarrassing....like there's 29 retarted GMs waiting to get fleeced.

Actually Ballard could be useful to teams like Colorado, Minnesota, and Anaheim that need some depth on defense.

Edited by Steven Stamkos' Mullet, 27 December 2012 - 12:10 AM.

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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs


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#2794 WolfxHaley

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:03 AM

Actually Ballard could be useful to teams like Colorado, Minnesota, and Anaheim needing some depth on defense.

Yeah, just some people don't use logic when replying to posts.
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#2795 MC Fatigue

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:05 AM

Yeah, just some people don't use logic when replying to posts.

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Edited by MC Fatigue, 27 December 2012 - 02:25 AM.

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#2796 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:46 AM

Not to flog a dead horse here but I will

I went to the Marlies/Bulldogs game today and was keen to watch a number of players mentioned in our regular Lou to Toronto proposals. A number of observations.

1. Gardiner is hurt but he's a stud and I've seen enough of him at the NHL level to know (especially given the lack of other players in their system) that he MUST be part of any deal if we are not going to be ripped off.

2. Kadri - don't want to get into it again but I stand by earlier posts. I watched this kid hardly skate, looks disinterested, poor positioning defensively (often allowing the opposing center between him and the net), did end up getting two weak assists (1 was a second, the other off a draw - so he looks good on the score sheet) but really did nothing. He doesn't have NHL speed, and his play really looked weak. Got rocked by Stortini and may have a concussion and honestly it was from playing lacksidasical, not paying attention. This game really cemented my view that he is nothing better than an AHL all star for life - don't want him as part of this deal.

3. Carter Ashton - terrific size, nhl speed, strong on his skates and along the walls, passes well. Still needs to work on his hands but would be nice as part of a package - reminds me of a faster Booth. He will play in the NHL - perhaps as a 3rd liner or if he can develop his hands a 2nd liner - solid player.

4. Frattin - again not very noticable - not horrendous but nothing great

5. Scrivens - will play in the NHL and is ready. Steady, calm, at times looked bored as Hamilton didn't pressure him much, but moved well and made some strong saves at key moments. I think the leafs would want to ship us Reimer instead but as a kid to groom in the minors for another year would be worth taking back (although would create some issues with Lack).

All in all, as I expected, Leafs really lack any sort of talent in the minor league system that makes them attractive as a trading partner. At best I would want

Lou/Ray/Ballard

For

Scrivens/Gardiner/Bozak

But Leafs wont do that so

Gardiner / Bozak at a min


Gardiner is going nowhere, even if we add Ballard in Raymond which I wouldn't do anyways.

And Booth is faster than Ashton BTW (Just saying)

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 27 December 2012 - 02:57 AM.

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#2797 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:47 AM

Seriously? Raymond and Ballard have negative value!! Especially Ballard.

The only reason MG re-signed Raymond was for depth/potential trade (fingers crossed).

The fact that people on CDC keep suggesting Raymond/Ballard trades is embarrassing....like there's 29 retarted GMs waiting to get fleeced.


If Raymond had negative value why would we have qualified him? We could have let him go rather than have his "negative value" as a burden on our roster.

And as for Ballard, I guess you missed the playoffs last year, and most of last season in general.
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#2798 WolfxHaley

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:43 AM

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HAHA, yeah whatever. It's okay for me to do.
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#2799 King of the ES

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:10 AM

Actually Ballard could be useful to teams like Colorado, Minnesota, and Anaheim that need some depth on defense.


That "depth" is too expensive. "Depth" is a guy like Andrew Alberts, not a guy with a $4.25M contract.
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#2800 Pears

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:17 AM

That "depth" is too expensive. "Depth" is a guy like Andrew Alberts, not a guy with a $4.25M contract.

Ballard is actually called depth, while Alberts is called a plug.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs


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#2801 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:09 AM

Gardiner is going nowhere, even if we add Ballard in Raymond which I wouldn't do anyways.

And Booth is faster than Ashton BTW (Just saying)


And I guess you've timed them in a race.

I've seen both live have you?
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#2802 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:16 AM

And I guess you've timed them in a race.

I've seen both live have you?


Not Ashton but Booth.

It's not hard to tell by watching to games on TV either by the way, you can just see in the way they play, Booth puts on the jets and go's hard to the net, from what I saw of the game yesterday Ashton just takes it wide and tries to shoot or make a play.

They have some similarities but Ashton isn't quite as fast as Booth and doesn't take it to the net as much as Booth does.
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#2803 Gooseberries

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:22 AM

Gardiner is going nowhere, even if we add Ballard in Raymond which I wouldn't do anyways.

And Booth is faster than Ashton BTW (Just saying)

that and the fact that ashton has 10 points in 28 games this season. everyone gives kass a hard time and now were making proposals for a prospect that is struggling more???? makes sense
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#2804 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:27 AM

that and the fact that ashton has 10 points in 28 games this season. everyone gives kass a hard time and now were making proposals for a prospect that is struggling more???? makes sense


I know I would much rather have Kadri or Biggs or Finn rather than Ashton.

Kadri is a better player than Ashton right now and has higher upside, Finn and Biggs are a bit tougher to get a read on (Comparison wise) cause they aren't as far along.

As for people complaining about Kassian, I wouldn't up to much into it, alot of them don't watch the Wolves games. And Kassian is clearly better than Ashton.
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#2805 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:57 AM

Not Ashton but Booth.

It's not hard to tell by watching to games on TV either by the way, you can just see in the way they play, Booth puts on the jets and go's hard to the net, from what I saw of the game yesterday Ashton just takes it wide and tries to shoot or make a play.

They have some similarities but Ashton isn't quite as fast as Booth and doesn't take it to the net as much as Booth does.


Wouldn't disagree on taking it to the net, but he has better speed. Granted it was vs AHL'ers but I have seen him in a leafs game too. He has NHL speed and his first two strides are faster than Booth.

As I said, if he can develop his hands he could be a good addition to a trade. He does see the ice well and did make a number of smart / nice passes/ and takes good positions in front of the net on the pp.
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#2806 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:59 AM

I know I would much rather have Kadri or Biggs or Finn rather than Ashton.

Kadri is a better player than Ashton right now and has higher upside, Finn and Biggs are a bit tougher to get a read on (Comparison wise) cause they aren't as far along.

As for people complaining about Kassian, I wouldn't up to much into it, alot of them don't watch the Wolves games. And Kassian is clearly better than Ashton.


You guys dont want to accept what I said about Kadri, but he's going to disappoint you. Issues:

1. Skating - not NHL calibre
2. Size - doesn't protect himself or the puck well and is small
3. Stays to the outside - won't doesn't go to tough areas
4. Saw him constantly trying to make cross ice passes last night, in the NHL will get picked off constantly
5. Gets the best ice time and does pick up points but as I said yesterday, nothing where he is 'creating'.
6. Defensively, was horrible


No thanks
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#2807 MC Fatigue

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 01:17 PM

HAHA, yeah whatever. It's okay for me to do.

:emot-parrot:
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#2808 King of the ES

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 01:37 PM

You guys dont want to accept what I said about Kadri, but he's going to disappoint you. Issues:

1. Skating - not NHL calibre
2. Size - doesn't protect himself or the puck well and is small
3. Stays to the outside - won't doesn't go to tough areas
4. Saw him constantly trying to make cross ice passes last night, in the NHL will get picked off constantly
5. Gets the best ice time and does pick up points but as I said yesterday, nothing where he is 'creating'.
6. Defensively, was horrible


Kadri is there to generate offense. He's gotten 25 points in 25 games; he's doing his job. You're just looking for excuses as to why his offensive production should be discounted, not unlike what Mike Gillis said about "manipulating" Cody Hodgson's situational play (bollocks) and not unlike what so many of those in denial are saying about Justin Schultz, that his ridiculous numbers in the AHL thus far are solely attributable to the people that he's playing with (even though he leads them all).

If Kadri were not generating offense, I would also be concerned. Kinda like I am with Zack Kassian and Jordan Schroeder, two guys who are underperforming. In 30 AHL games last year, Kassian had 15 goals and 26 points; this season, 24 games in, he's gotten 6 goals and 14 points. He's also gotten 55 PIMs (roughly double what he had last year at this point), which suggests that he's either slow, lazy, or stupid. I really hope that we didn't trade Cody Hodgson for a 4th line "enforcer".

Are you concerned about either Kassian or Schroeder? Schroeder's even smaller than Kadri, as I assume you know. 15 points in 25 games.
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#2809 smurf47

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:04 PM

Kadri is there to generate offense. He's gotten 25 points in 25 games; he's doing his job. You're just looking for excuses as to why his offensive production should be discounted, not unlike what Mike Gillis said about "manipulating" Cody Hodgson's situational play (bollocks) and not unlike what so many of those in denial are saying about Justin Schultz, that his ridiculous numbers in the AHL thus far are solely attributable to the people that he's playing with (even though he leads them all).

If Kadri were not generating offense, I would also be concerned. Kinda like I am with Zack Kassian and Jordan Schroeder, two guys who are underperforming. In 30 AHL games last year, Kassian had 15 goals and 26 points; this season, 24 games in, he's gotten 6 goals and 14 points. He's also gotten 55 PIMs (roughly double what he had last year at this point), which suggests that he's either slow, lazy, or stupid. I really hope that we didn't trade Cody Hodgson for a 4th line "enforcer".

Are you concerned about either Kassian or Schroeder? Schroeder's even smaller than Kadri, as I assume you know. 15 points in 25 games.

slow. lazy or stupid is a bit harsh even for you ES, none of which computes to his production rate. Depends on amount of ice time or how the coach wants him to play. Neither of those two options are you privey too. If Kass can mirror those numbers in NHL, I believe coaches would be more than happy.Of course, only your opinion matters !!
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#2810 King of the ES

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:25 PM

slow. lazy or stupid is a bit harsh even for you ES, none of which computes to his production rate. Depends on amount of ice time or how the coach wants him to play. Neither of those two options are you privey too. If Kass can mirror those numbers in NHL, I believe coaches would be more than happy.Of course, only your opinion matters !!


You'll need to read slower next time, because I said that those were tied to his PIMs, not his "production rate".
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#2811 WolfxHaley

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:16 PM

:emot-parrot:

Well isn't that how CDC works? :P
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#2812 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:21 PM

Wouldn't disagree on taking it to the net, but he has better speed. Granted it was vs AHL'ers but I have seen him in a leafs game too. He has NHL speed and his first two strides are faster than Booth.

As I said, if he can develop his hands he could be a good addition to a trade. He does see the ice well and did make a number of smart / nice passes/ and takes good positions in front of the net on the pp.


Disagree completely Booth's overall speed and acceleration are better, he has that separating speed, one stride and he is gone, and the proof is right here:



notice how at 0:03 he is gliding then he takes off and he is gone. Not offense to Ashton but I don't think he has that yet. Or the hands/Puck control for that matter.
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#2813 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:44 PM

You guys dont want to accept what I said about Kadri, but he's going to disappoint you. Issues:

1. Skating - not NHL calibre
2. Size - doesn't protect himself or the puck well and is small
3. Stays to the outside - won't doesn't go to tough areas
4. Saw him constantly trying to make cross ice passes last night, in the NHL will get picked off constantly

5. Gets the best ice time and does pick up points but as I said yesterday, nothing where he is 'creating'.
6. Defensively, was horrible


No thanks


Kinda interesting how you say those 2 things, and they are kind of contradiciting.

Anyways I think you are off the mark on some of these, I can accept that people (and young players) have weakness's and things in there game that still need development but I think you are off the mark on alot of these things, I don't know if it is due to you not liking him (Like it seems) but if all of these things were the issue's you think they are he wouldn't be PPG in the A right now.

Anyways you say his skating isn't NHL calibre which I just don't see, his skating is fine. I have heard all the comments about skating before (being a former Coho defender) and I can tell you Kadri's is alot better than Cody's is/was at this point and aslong as he keeps working at it he will be fine.

Size, well after hearing all the knocks on Schroeder for his size I disagree that Kadri is small, he is 6'0 which is average, i'm not worried about the size, and he does protect himself fine, your just saying that because he got blindsided by Stortini. Which to me is just a blindside hit when the player is in a vulnerable position, not him simply not protecting himself.

"Stays to the outside" This is simply wrong, watch his highlights, he goes to the net, carries the puck into the slot. Whatever your worried about. Now he does play on the outside in controlled situations because he is a playmaker, like on the PP or in a controlled situation where they have the puck down low (That's not only him that does that btw all the good playmakers do), and obviously it works for him since he still puts up PPG.

You say he was bad defensively yet he was +1, yeah he doesn't block shots, isn't a defensive player but he isn't a liability either.


Now I want him because
- He has NHL level playmaking and talent
- He has a good wrist shot
- Our 2nd line needs a playmaker
- Our Prospect pool is weak
- He is an offensive dynamo that has all the tools to be a good offensive player
- He is still only 22, he's still a young player who has time to develop, we have time to be patient with him and let him come at it at his own pace.

Overall I don't see anyreason not to go for him, he is NHL ready and he so young he still is developing, then when you add that to the fact that we don't have much high talent in our prospect pool this would be a great addition to add talent to our future, which is one of our needs IMO.

And this is also why I would rather him over Ashton, his upside is higher, IMO Ashton will be a 3rd liner, maybe a 2nd/3rd tweener, someone like Higgins or Raymond, but we don't need someone like that, we have alot of prospects like that, I want a guy who has the potential to be a top offensive player.
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#2814 oldnews

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:55 PM

Kadri is there to generate offense. He's gotten 25 points in 25 games; he's doing his job. You're just looking for excuses as to why his offensive production should be discounted, not unlike what Mike Gillis said about "manipulating" Cody Hodgson's situational play (bollocks)


And apparently Buffalo was reverse-manipuilating Hodgson's stats to give the impression that he's not very good yet...
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#2815 King of the ES

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:24 PM

And apparently Buffalo was reverse-manipuilating Hodgson's stats to give the impression that he's not very good yet...


:bigblush:

Whatever. He had 51 shots in 20 games, which is impressive. Shows that he'll be a big part of that offense. 8 points in 20 games, not good, but there was enough evidence there over the course of the season that I'd venture a guess that Buffalo's not too concerned.

BTW - why does Kassian get a pass? You frequently bring up Cody's performance in Buffalo, how about Zack's in Vancouver? 3 points in 17 games? 18 SOG? What's up with that? Why does he get a pass? Cody's all of 11 months older than Zack Kassian and essentially missed the entire 2009-10 season. So all of this crap about Cody "being further along" is just not true. You can say that they're "different types of players", but is that just a kind way of saying that we traded Cody Hodgson for a bottom-six goon like Steve Bernier?
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#2816 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:33 PM

I dont, I don't think Schenn will ever be all that much more than he is, he will maybe develop consistentcy and become a reliable top 4 Dman but he doesn't have many dynamics to his game, I would rather have a Kadri+ some other young pieces.


Schenn is dim-witted and dim-witted equals Cup (see Lucic and... Hopefully Kassian)

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 27 December 2012 - 07:49 PM.

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#2817 smurf47

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:47 PM

You'll need to read slower next time, because I said that those were tied to his PIMs, not his "production rate".

and how do they tie in to penalty minutes? Means he;s playing tougher?
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#2818 King of the ES

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:50 PM

and how do they tie in to penalty minutes? Means he;s playing tougher?


Was Kassian acquired to be a goon? Is that what we traded Cody Hodgson for?
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#2819 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:54 PM

Was Kassian acquired to be a goon? Is that what we traded Cody Hodgson for?


If goon means Cup then goon it is. Only time will tell.
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#2820 oldnews

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:07 PM

:bigblush:

Whatever. He had 51 shots in 20 games, which is impressive. Shows that he'll be a big part of that offense. 8 points in 20 games, not good, but there was enough evidence there over the course of the season that I'd venture a guess that Buffalo's not too concerned.

BTW - why does Kassian get a pass? You frequently bring up Cody's performance in Buffalo, how about Zack's in Vancouver? 3 points in 17 games? 18 SOG? What's up with that? Why does he get a pass? Cody's all of 11 months older than Zack Kassian and essentially missed the entire 2009-10 season. So all of this crap about Cody "being further along" is just not true. You can say that they're "different types of players", but is that just a kind way of saying that we traded Cody Hodgson for a bottom-six goon like Steve Bernier?


Counterpoint: 3 goals with 51 shots is less than a 6% shooting percentage (for a guy with such a great shot).
First - I don't give Hodgson a "fail" - and I don't consider Hodgson's lack of production in Buffalo to be his biggest problem. I think it's unreasonable to expect a rookie to light it up consistently - his 8 points in 20 games is not really that much of a concern. What was evident was that he wasn't prepared to handle the defensive responsibility that comes with being a center who gets 20 minutes of ice-time. That is where his game needs a great deal of work - or the right linemates, who can effectively carry that part of the load for him. That's the part that was underestimated imo - how enabling it is to play with two-way gems like Hansen and Higgins. He was not a second line center in the NHL at that point of his career.
I give Kassian a pass because he was getting predominantly fourth line minutes (6 to 8 minutes a game) and as far as I'm concerned did lots of little things well in his roles - showed good hands and offensive sense, backchecked and played responsible hockey in his own end of the ice, hit and stayed disciplined, moved the puck intelligently (and was low risk) - I think he adapted well - I wasn't expecting him to put up 10 points playing with Malhotra, Weise, etc for 6 minutes a game... If you project his 3 points with 3 times as much ice time, he's in the same pace/60 minutes as Hodgson, while not playing a scoring role.
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