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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#2851 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:16 PM

Actually he isn't a perimeter player, he goes to the net and the dirty areas.
His size isn't an issue and I think he is fine on his skates.

I'm not going to go through the entire list I think you are off in your anaylsis simply because you don't like him, because if he wasn't good in all these areas there is no way he would be doing this well in the AHL.

Plus he is still 22, he is still developing and has time to continue to get better and learn, your probably expecting to much.


Lol

1. You clearly haven't watched him vs even AHL players because his speed was at best average and he coasts alot. You rarely seem him go hard for a puck at all and seldom if ever go into a corner.

I am not sure what you are watching other than your midnight dreams and that's fine.

2. I don't 'dislike' him, I don't know him. I am objectively judging his talent and ability to jump to the next level and don't beleive he will or can successfully without significant changes to his attitude, effort and desire - those intangibles are developed over one's life not in a few weeks and therefore I don;t believe he is good enough.

3. My talent analysis is off? he wouldn't do so well in the AHL if he wasn't capable? Again, I refer you to hundreds of players who have been in the top ten in AHL scoring over the AHL history who have not made the jump. A canuck example hows Josh Holden, 12th overall, more points in junior, slightly bigger, a better skater, a few callups but never stuck and pt per game in the AHL...where's he? In Europe. I can give you hundreds more.

He's not worth any part of the deal unless a throw in and Burke will pawn him as a top line center . Again, if a team is in need of a talented top line center (1 or 2nd line) why would they deal their 'star in the making' as you suggest.

Ever think about that? lol

Ya give away the biggest hole you have on your team and therefore by implication your most valuable young asset for a goalie who is terrific but there is no market for.

Wouldn't you trade a dman since they seem to have a surplus of young d?

Im sure you're rationalize that away some how.

Kadri = Leaf junk

Edited by BuretoMogilny, 28 December 2012 - 08:17 PM.

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#2852 smurf47

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:56 PM

Have you ordered your Ryan Johansen Canuck jersey yet, smurf?

you got it wrong...was noy my post !!...PS I don;t wear team jerseys..not my style !
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#2853 smurf47

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:58 PM

Indeed. Most of the 29 other teams in the league will come knocking for Luongo's services.

Truly, I would continue to increase Schneider's value by playing half the games and keep Lu and try to land a young top D.

CBJ
Schneider
Ballard
Raymond
2nd

VAN
R. Murray
Umberger

are your arms getting sore beating that same drum??
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#2854 playboi19

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:34 PM

Luongo is going to instantly make the team he goes to a playoff team.
Gillis is going to hit a grand slam with this deal.
No doubts.
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#2855 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:05 PM

are your arms getting sore beating that same drum??


I see you got hurt by my comment in the other thread. You are being fooled. That's all.
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#2856 smurf47

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:56 PM

I see you got hurt by my comment in the other thread. You are being fooled. That's all.

I have no idea what you are talking about...which is actually usual from you.
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#2857 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:09 AM

I have no idea what you are talking about...which is actually usual from you.


He who plays most innocent, is the least innocent of all.
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#2858 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:36 AM

Lol

1. You clearly haven't watched him vs even AHL players because his speed was at best average and he coasts alot. You rarely seem him go hard for a puck at all and seldom if ever go into a corner.

I am not sure what you are watching other than your midnight dreams and that's fine.

2. I don't 'dislike' him, I don't know him. I am objectively judging his talent and ability to jump to the next level and don't beleive he will or can successfully without significant changes to his attitude, effort and desire - those intangibles are developed over one's life not in a few weeks and therefore I don;t believe he is good enough.

3. My talent analysis is off? he wouldn't do so well in the AHL if he wasn't capable? Again, I refer you to hundreds of players who have been in the top ten in AHL scoring over the AHL history who have not made the jump. A canuck example hows Josh Holden, 12th overall, more points in junior, slightly bigger, a better skater, a few callups but never stuck and pt per game in the AHL...where's he? In Europe. I can give you hundreds more.

He's not worth any part of the deal unless a throw in and Burke will pawn him as a top line center . Again, if a team is in need of a talented top line center (1 or 2nd line) why would they deal their 'star in the making' as you suggest.

Ever think about that? lol

Ya give away the biggest hole you have on your team and therefore by implication your most valuable young asset for a goalie who is terrific but there is no market for.

Wouldn't you trade a dman since they seem to have a surplus of young d?

Im sure you're rationalize that away some how.

Kadri = Leaf junk


So Kadri is the leafs top center? Lol he isn't a 1st line center right now. I'm not sure how trading him takes anything away from there team trading him in a deal for Luongo would only fill an even bigger hole.

Now, you say he is an average skater, that's fine. I think he is a bit above average, but either way he doesn't have top notch speed, and that's fine, Skating isn't an issue which is my point, his speed and skating ability is perfectly fine. Not a weakness. And your right he does coast, but that doesn't mean he isn't a good skater, and him coasting isn't a problem, the only players who should have there feet moving the entire time (or most of it) is the defense. All forwards are going to coast from time to time it's the way the position works.

Give me Hundreds more, Josh Holden didn't put up the AHL points Kadri did right away and didn't even manage the NHL production Kadri has which isn't even outstanding in the first place.

He doesn't go into the corners? Where is the proof? From everything I have seen, everything I have read, all the games I have watched I have noticed he has no issue going into the corners, his size which is average not small, isn't an issue, it doesn't take away from his game.

Also you say he doesn't have desire, work ethic and he has a bad attitude. If these things were true then why hasn't he requested a trade? Why hasn't he given up yet? And if your going to come back with the out of shape argument again, tell me how many pounds he was overweight (Which probably isn't much) and also consider the fact that he is a picky eater and it is something he is working on, it's not that he doesn't care it is that he can't eat certain things, I know myself from experiance there are just some things my system just resists.


And if you weren't biased, you would look at all the great things he does well.

Okay so either way lets look at the big picture as to why I think we should be interested in him. He is 22 years old, young and developing, he is already NHL ready, and still has alot of development and learning to do, our prospect pool is weak in top talent, and adding him would be a huge addition, we need future talent. He would come here, we would be patient with him, give him chances, give him alot of opportuinty, there would be no pressure, and he could help us out in the future.

And also since you are so interested in pointing out what you think he isn't good at, let's look at the other half of the glass and look at what he does bring:
- Great shot
- Has great vision, and see's the ice very well
- great passer, has great hands and great puck control
- is great at finding holes, and jumping into them
- He isn't afraid to go where it takes to get the puck and create offense
- He throws his weight around, he's not a complete softy, he does like to hit and isn't all that bad about it
- He has game breaking offensive ability
- His overall offensive skill is already NHL calibre and a bit above average IMO, Better than some guys on our team (Raymond, Higgins, Hansen)
- He skates well

People think he is not good defensively, and he isn't a defensive specialist and doesn't have to be, that's not the kind of player he is, ever time I see him he isn't a liability defensively and he isn't a liability defensively, so I don't see an issue there, not every player has to provide supreme defensive play, and also in his 1st NHL camp he led the team in +/- (Was +6) last year in the NHL he was a + player and in the AHL he is a career + player, so he also has the stats to back that up.

And above all else, he is 22!!! He is still developing, he still is getting better, he is still working at it, bring him here and let him continue working at it without the pressure, give him some chances, and let him show his offensive ability & upside.

You should be less biased when you watch him play, and fairly assess what he does well aswell rather than just trying to identify as many weaknesses as you can like you try to.
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#2859 King of the ES

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 04:51 AM

Hank and Kesler. It's as simple as that.
Wellwood on the third line was exactly where he belonged.
The whole misused by AV line is that is spouted everywhere is as dumb here as anywhere.


Wellwood is fine on the wing. He played lots of wing on the Jets last year. He was also predominantly a winger on Toronto when he had 87 points in 129 games as a 22/23 year-old in the most scrutinized market there is.

Great hockey player, but only 5'10", not a fitness model, and looks like he's 16 years old. Better bench him!
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#2860 sampy

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:50 AM

Wellwood is fine on the wing. He played lots of wing on the Jets last year. He was also predominantly a winger on Toronto when he had 87 points in 129 games as a 22/23 year-old in the most scrutinized market there is.

Great hockey player, but only 5'10", not a fitness model, and looks like he's 16 years old. Better bench him!


I am not sure why MG never resigned Wellwood, but either did SJ, so there may be something there. It would be intriguing to see him play with Booth and Kesler as he does have very good hands and creates plays. At that time it didn't work because Kesler was always playing with Raymond and having two soft/perimeter players would not have worked.

Torres and Mitchell MG should have figure out as well. Two very good role players that could move up and down in the lineup.

Back to Lu. IMO the Canucks need to trade him for a young offensive dman that can carry the puck up. There is none in the system. The Canucks do have prospects at the centre, wing and goaltending position and some good 2-way dmen. Toronto has a couple of them.
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#2861 King of the ES

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:09 AM

I am not sure why MG never resigned Wellwood, but either did SJ, so there may be something there. It would be intriguing to see him play with Booth and Kesler as he does have very good hands and creates plays. At that time it didn't work because Kesler was always playing with Raymond and having two soft/perimeter players would not have worked.


He's small, pudgy, soft, etc. That's solely why nobody signs him - he doesn't look like a hockey player. But the guy is unbelievably talented. I just hope he continues his ascent in Winnipeg. No reason that he can't annually get 50+ points, IMO.
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#2862 sampy

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:36 AM

He's small, pudgy, soft, etc. That's solely why nobody signs him - he doesn't look like a hockey player. But the guy is unbelievably talented. I just hope he continues his ascent in Winnipeg. No reason that he can't annually get 50+ points, IMO.


Yeah I agree with you. Probably not the best work ethic, especially when compared to the Sedins and Lu. He's decent in the playoffs too. With Kesler and Booth driving the net, Wellwood could have been a nice fit.
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#2863 oldnews

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:18 PM

Wellwood is fine on the wing. He played lots of wing on the Jets last year. He was also predominantly a winger on Toronto when he had 87 points in 129 games as a 22/23 year-old in the most scrutinized market there is.

Great hockey player, but only 5'10", not a fitness model, and looks like he's 16 years old. Better bench him!


Spare me. He played 74 and 75 games in two seasons in Vancouver. 48 and 59 the two previous years on the pathetic Leafs, and 35 the year after he left for San Jose (a half season before anyone other than the KHL showed interest).
The third line in Vancouver is not exactly the bench. It's a GD good gig.
Poor little Wellie didn't get enough opportunity in Vancouver. Give me a break. AV revived his career.
He should have been thankful. Instead he put more than cheeseburgers in his mouth - he added his foot.
The whole "the Canucks are afraid to lose comment" - that really played out well when Vancouver steamrolled him and his perenial playoff failures the Sharks.
You have to ask yourself why he could only manage contracts worth 650 and 700k after making 2.2 million in two years in Vancouver. He's a wee guy by third line center standards who is a skill first player - yeah, he's a good little player, but has never broken the 50 point plateau in the NHL. In other words he hasn't exactly forced his way onto anyone's top six - and as much skill as he has, even the Laffs took a whiff on him.
He's a tweener. Not surprising you're here going on about how he was misused in Vancouver. Derp.
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#2864 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:15 PM

MG never signed him because he was a 185 lb fat slow guy who was an easy target for opposing coaches setting up match up's to exploit.

If you watched us play San Jose with Wellwood, we also did exactly that as well; probably why SJ did not re-sign him. Who cares how talented he is?

I am not sure why MG never resigned Wellwood, but either did SJ, so there may be something there. It would be intriguing to see him play with Booth and Kesler as he does have very good hands and creates plays. At that time it didn't work because Kesler was always playing with Raymond and having two soft/perimeter players would not have worked.

Torres and Mitchell MG should have figure out as well. Two very good role players that could move up and down in the lineup.

Back to Lu. IMO the Canucks need to trade him for a young offensive dman that can carry the puck up. There is none in the system. The Canucks do have prospects at the centre, wing and goaltending position and some good 2-way dmen. Toronto has a couple of them.


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 29 December 2012 - 01:17 PM.

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#2865 elvis15

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:17 PM

I am not sure why MG never resigned Wellwood, but either did SJ, so there may be something there. It would be intriguing to see him play with Booth and Kesler as he does have very good hands and creates plays. At that time it didn't work because Kesler was always playing with Raymond and having two soft/perimeter players would not have worked.

Torres and Mitchell MG should have figure out as well. Two very good role players that could move up and down in the lineup.

Back to Lu. IMO the Canucks need to trade him for a young offensive dman that can carry the puck up. There is none in the system. The Canucks do have prospects at the centre, wing and goaltending position and some good 2-way dmen. Toronto has a couple of them.

More than one team passing on him isn't coincidence or just a 'team fit' issue.

Claimed off waivers from the Leafs by us, then went to the KHL as he wasn't picked up in free agency. Signed as a UFA by St Louis part way through the season, but then claimed from them off waivers by San Jose a day later. UFA again until he got signed by Winnipeg in September, so he's hardly been a sought after player.

Torres and Mitchell were their own issue and have been discussed a lot here. Torres could be effective, or detrimental. In between he wasn't always noticeable. Mitchell's health and ability was an unknown after an extended time off for his concussion and left for a payday. We didn't have the luxury of committing to either long term or for more money only to find they didn't work out, and we gave them an option to prove themselves that they turned down.

As far as puck moving D-men, McNally and Price are our two best options in the system for that. I don't see either making a significant impact in the top 4 though, at least not in the next few years if at all, so we are left with Edler and Ballard as our two best skaters on the back end otherwise. It wouldn't hurt to improve there, but people aren't handing those kinds of players out like candy.

Yeah I agree with you. Probably not the best work ethic, especially when compared to the Sedins and Lu. He's decent in the playoffs too. With Kesler and Booth driving the net, Wellwood could have been a nice fit.

Daigle was talented too, I don't think anyone questions that about either player. Still, you have to do more than just be talented to stick in the NHL.

Wellwood is a decent possession player and skilled to boot, he also tries to be responsible defensively. My opinion is he needs better players around him to reach the next level of success (i.e. when he played with Sundin in Toronto) and he isn't capable of raising others' games to the point where he's a valued commodity in that regard.
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#2866 King of the ES

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:52 PM

Spare me. He played 74 and 75 games in two seasons in Vancouver. 48 and 59 the two previous years on the pathetic Leafs, and 35 the year after he left for San Jose (a half season before anyone other than the KHL showed interest).
The third line in Vancouver is not exactly the bench. It's a GD good gig.
Poor little Wellie didn't get enough opportunity in Vancouver. Give me a break. AV revived his career.


Please. The 3rd line in Vancouver in 2008-09 was Wellwood, Bernier, and Raymond. That wasn't a President's Trophy year, BTW. I remember when they waived Wellwood in camp, then tried to undo it - whoops - and bring him back up. Believe he went on to get 2 goals and an assist in his first game against Columbus.

Most people thought that he'd be reunited with Sundin. That did happen, for Mats' first game with us, when he looked like Chewbacca on skates. Did not happen again. Wellwood was put in a bottom-six role while clearly being more gifted offensively than practically anyone on the team.

He should have been thankful. Instead he put more than cheeseburgers in his mouth - he added his foot.
The whole "the Canucks are afraid to lose comment" - that really played out well when Vancouver steamrolled him and his perenial playoff failures the Sharks.


He was thankful, sure. He was a good teammate. And his comment was not really inaccurate, was it? This is a Canuck team that was 1 goal away from completing the biggest tank-job in sports history, versus the Blackhawks in round 1. They then went on to totally embarrass themselves 3 times in Boston in the SCF, which adds credibility to Kyle's quote.

You have to ask yourself why he could only manage contracts worth 650 and 700k after making 2.2 million in two years in Vancouver. He's a wee guy by third line center standards who is a skill first player - yeah, he's a good little player, but has never broken the 50 point plateau in the NHL. In other words he hasn't exactly forced his way onto anyone's top six - and as much skill as he has, even the Laffs took a whiff on him.
He's a tweener. Not surprising you're here going on about how he was misused in Vancouver. Derp.


I've already explained why he's managed "only" those contracts. It's because he's small, weak, and soft. And GMs have an irrational bias towards size - see the Hodgson/Kassian trade for proof.

As for your "points" argument - nice attempt at dancing around the facts. He has never broken the 50-point plateau, that is true, but let's also not ignore the fact that he had 42 points in 48 games as a 23 year-old playing in Toronto. I guess "projections" can only be used when analyzing guys that you'd like to add - like Scottie Upshall and his 2 goals from last year, right? Something tells me that Welly would've had no issues getting > 50 points in that season, had he not have gotten a sports hernia.
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#2867 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:44 PM

He's small, pudgy, soft, etc. That's solely why nobody signs him - he doesn't look like a hockey player. But the guy is unbelievably talented. I just hope he continues his ascent in Winnipeg. No reason that he can't annually get 50+ points, IMO.


He is talented but not that talent.

He has great hands and great vision/playmaking/passing, but he doesn't have that great of a shot. Hands/playmaking wise he is unbelievable but he doesn't have the unbelievable shot to complete the entire skillset.
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#2868 WiDeN

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:48 PM

He is talented but not that talent.

He has great hands and great vision/playmaking/passing, but he doesn't have that great of a shot. Hands/playmaking wise he is unbelievable but he doesn't have the unbelievable shot to complete the entire skillset.

He can hit the roof of the net from 3 feet out though.
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#2869 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:28 PM

He can hit the roof of the net from 3 feet out though.


From my experience playing hockey I think that can be more attributed to hands.
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#2870 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:55 PM

Are we actually talking about Wellwood? What are the Canucks; a bottom feeder?

Get what you can for Luongo,
Get Kadri at all cost,
Shouldn't have let Wellwood go,

Insanity or ignorance; pick one, because that's what I'm reading.

Luongo is our best chance to a Cup,
Kadri will have an excellent AHL career,
Wellwood is a thing of the past and thank God for that.

This team does not need to trade it's top 5 goaltender, it does not need to chaperone a Leafs' failure, nor does it need to get softer.

This team needs a 1D, some heavy toughness and some scoring; it relies too much on the Sedins to carry the load. Kesler needs to pass if he's going to center the second line and if not, this team needs a 2C to pass to Kesler and Booth.

Schneider needs to be traded at some point in order to bring in some much needed help as either a 1D, a 2C or a T6F.

Packaging Edler and Schneider together for a 1D is what I'm looking for.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 29 December 2012 - 03:58 PM.

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#2871 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:56 PM

Double post

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 29 December 2012 - 03:57 PM.

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#2872 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

Are we actually talking about Wellwood? What are the Canucks; a bottom feeder?

Get what you can for Luongo,
Get Kadri at all cost,
Shouldn't have let Wellwood go,

Insanity or ignorance; pick one, because that's what I'm reading.

Luongo is our best chance to a Cup,
Kadri will have an excellent AHL career,
Wellwood is a thing of the past and thank God for that.

This team does not need to trade it's top 5 goaltender, it does not need to chaperone a Leafs' failure, nor does it need to get softer.

This team needs a 1D, some heavy toughness and some scoring; it relies too much on the Sedins to carry the load. Kesler needs to pass if he's going to center the second line and if not, this team needs a 2C to pass to Kesler and Booth.

Schneider needs to be traded at some point in order to bring in some much needed help as either a 1D, a 2C or a T6F.

Packaging Edler and Schneider together for a 1D is what I'm looking for.


Lol another guy who brushes Kadri aside as a prospect cause he plays for the Leafs.

Luongo isn't top 5 anymore, I'ma big fan but sorry he just isnt.

And we were just talking about Wellwood, I don't want him here.


Trading Edler and Schneider would be bad for us, cause who are we going to get that he that big of an upgrade on Edler? Keep Schneider, Trade Luongo for Future assets (Mostly)

Then go from there.
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#2873 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 04:32 PM

Lol another guy who brushes Kadri aside as a prospect cause he plays for the Leafs.

Luongo isn't top 5 anymore, I'ma big fan but sorry he just isnt.

And we were just talking about Wellwood, I don't want him here.


Trading Edler and Schneider would be bad for us, cause who are we going to get that he that big of an upgrade on Edler? Keep Schneider, Trade Luongo for Future assets (Mostly)

Then go from there.


I'm not brushing of Kadri because he's a Leafs, I'm brushing off Kadri because he's Kadri.


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#2874 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 04:52 PM

I'm not brushing of Kadri because he's a Leafs, I'm brushing off Kadri because he's Kadri.


What's so bad about him? He's better and has higher upside than most (and possibly all) of our prospects/young players.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 29 December 2012 - 04:52 PM.

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#2875 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:14 PM

What's so bad about him? He's better and has higher upside than most (and possibly all) of our prospects/young players.


If he can't stick with a bottom feeder, how would he stick with an elite team? The only place Kadri could in theory, slot in is at 2C and Kesler might have the same story to tell as he did with Hodgson.
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#2876 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:51 PM

If he can't stick with a bottom feeder, how would he stick with an elite team? The only place Kadri could in theory, slot in is at 2C and Kesler might have the same story to tell as he did with Hodgson.


He has been treated poorly, and our team generally (And Hodgson is proof of this) want to give top prospects as many chances as possible.

And Kadri can also play Wing, so he could slot in on the 2nd even after Kes returns, or else he could play on the 3rd and get the same treatment Cody got.

And he is also still only 22, so it isn't like he has to crack the line-up right away (even though it is best for him) as long as he shows he can play at this level which I think he already has.
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#2877 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:29 PM

He has been treated poorly, and our team generally (And Hodgson is proof of this) want to give top prospects as many chances as possible.

And Kadri can also play Wing, so he could slot in on the 2nd even after Kes returns, or else he could play on the 3rd and get the same treatment Cody got.

And he is also still only 22, so it isn't like he has to crack the line-up right away (even though it is best for him) as long as he shows he can play at this level which I think he already has.


Forget Kadri.
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#2878 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:36 PM

Forget Kadri.


nice response, I'd gladly take him over Ashton or any other of there AHL prospects anyday.
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#2879 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:33 PM

nice response, I'd gladly take him over Ashton or any other of there AHL prospects anyday.


BOS
Schneider
Ballard
1st

VAN
Lucic


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#2880 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:44 PM

BOS
Schneider
Ballard
1st

VAN
Lucic


:lol:

Boston does this because?
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