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#271 J.R.

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:40 AM

There are times when a child just will not respond to anything other than a good swat on the backside, my sister had the same opinion as your until she babysat my cousins kids, she changed her tune pretty quick after one night with those undisciplined little monsters. The kids should not live in terror of their parents, but they should learn that there are consequences to crossing certain lines.


Please note I said abuse. IMO, spanking (and I mean a light rap on the bottom, not bare arse repeated hard smacks) is not abuse... though as noted should be used as a last resort.

Hitting kids with spoons, shoes etc or escalated physical punishment beyond spanking is abuse. There's a clear difference.

Edited by J.R., 15 October 2012 - 10:19 AM.

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#272 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:31 AM

Please note I said abuse. IMO, spanking is not abuse... though as noted should be used as a last resort.

Hitting kids with spoons, shoes etc or escalated physical punishment beyond spanking is abuse. There's a clear difference.


Just some things to think about JR, for when those twins of yours arrive and you and the Mrs are considering how to discipline them as they grow up. May want to have a talk about it with her. Just some food for thought my friend.



10 Reasons Not to Hit Your Child

1. HITTING MODELS HITTING

There is a classic story about the mother who believed in spanking as a necessary part of discipline until one day she observed her three- year-old daughter hitting her one-year-old son. When confronted, her daughter said, "I'm just playing mommy." This mother never spanked another child.Children love to imitate, especially people whom they love and respect. They perceive that it's okay for them to do whatever you do. Parents, remember, you are bringing up someone else's mother or father, and wife or husband. The same discipline techniques you employ with your children are the ones they are most likely to carry on in their own parenting. The family is a training camp for teaching children how to handle conflicts. Studies show that children from spanking families are more likely to use aggression to handle conflicts when they become adults.

Spanking demonstrates that it's all right for people to hit people, and especially for big people to hit little people, and stronger people to hit weaker people. Children learn that when you have a problem you solve it with a good swat. A child whose behavior is controlled by spanking is likely to carry on this mode of interaction into other relationships with siblings and peers, and eventually a spouse and offspring.

But, you say, "I don't spank my child that often or that hard. Most of the time I show him lots of love and gentleness. An occasional swat on the bottom won't bother him." This rationalization holds true for some children, but other children remember spanking messages more than nurturing ones. You may have a hug-hit ratio of 100:1 in your home, but you run the risk of your child remembering and being influenced more by the one hit than the 100 hugs, especially if that hit was delivered in anger or unjustly, which happens all too often.

Physical punishment shows that it's all right to vent your anger or right a wrong by hitting other people. This is why the parent's attitude during the spanking leaves as great an impression as the swat itself. How to control one's angry impulses (swat control) is one of the things you are trying to teach your children. Spanking sabotages this teaching. Spanking guidelines usually give the warning to never spank in anger. If this guideline were to be faithfully observed 99 percent of spanking wouldn't occur, because once the parent has calmed down he or she can come up with a more appropriate method of correction.

VERBAL AND EMOTIONAL "HITTING"

Physical hitting is not the only way to cross the line into abuse. Everything we say about physical punishment pertains to emotional/verbal punishment as well. Tongue-lashing and name-calling tirades can actually harm a child more psychologically. Emotional abuse can be very subtle and even self-righteous. Threats to coerce a child to cooperate can touch on his worst fear—abandonment. ("I'm leaving if you don't behave.") Often threats of abandonment are implied giving the child the message that you can't stand being with her or a smack of emotional abandonment (by letting her know you are withdrawing your love, refusing to speak to her or saying you don't like her if she continues to displease you). Scars on the mind may last longer than scars on the body.

2. HITTING DEVALUES THE CHILD

The child's self-image begins with how he perceives that others – especially his parents – perceive him Even in the most loving homes, spanking gives a confusing message, especially to a child too young to understand the reason for the whack. Parents spend a lot of time building up their baby or child's sense of being valued, helping the child feel "good." Then the child breaks a glass, you spank, and he feels, "I must be bad."

Even a guilt-relieving hug from a parent after a spank doesn't remove the sting. The child is likely to feel the hit, inside and out, long after the hug. Most children put in this situation will hug to ask for mercy. "If I hug him, daddy will stop hitting me." When spanking is repeated over and over, one message is driven home to the child, "You are weak and defenseless."

Joan, a loving mother, sincerely believed that spanking was a parental right and obligation needed to turn out an obedient child. She felt spanking was "for the child's own good." After several months of spank-controlled discipline, her toddler became withdrawn. She would notice him playing alone in the corner, not interested in playmates, and avoiding eye contact with her. He had lost his previous sparkle. Outwardly he was a "good boy." Inwardly, Spencer thought he was a bad boy. He didn't feel right and he didn't act right. Spanking made him feel smaller and weaker, overpowered by people bigger than him.

SLAPPING HANDS

How tempting it is to slap those daring little hands! Many parents do it without thinking, but consider the consequences. Maria Montessori, one of the earliest opponents of slapping children's hands, believed that children's hands are tools for exploring, an extension of the child's natural curiosity. Slapping them sends a powerful negative message. Sensitive parents we have interviewed all agree that the hands should be off-limits for physical punishment. Research supports this idea. Psychologists studied a group of sixteen fourteen-month-olds playing with their mothers. When one group of toddlers tried to grab a forbidden object, they received a slap on the hand; the other group of toddlers did not receive physical punishment. In follow-up studies of these children seven months later, the punished babies were found to be less skilled at exploring their environment. Better to separate the child from the object or supervise his exploration and leave little hands unhurt.

3. HITTING DEVALUES THE PARENT

Parents who spank-control or otherwise abusively punish their children often feel devalued themselves because deep down they don't feel right about their way of discipline. Often they spank (or yell) in desperation because they don't know what else to do, but afterward feel more powerless when they find it doesn't work. As one mother who dropped spanking from her correction list put it, "I won the battle, but lost the war. My child now fears me, and I feel I've lost something precious."

Spanking also devalues the role of a parent. Being an authority figure means you are trusted and respected, but not feared. Lasting authority cannot be based on fear. Parents or other caregivers who repeatedly use spanking to control children enter into a lose-lose situation. Not only does the child lose respect for the parent, but the parents also lose out because they develop a spanking mindset and have fewer alternatives to spanking. The parent has fewer preplanned, experience-tested strategies to divert potential behavior, so the child misbehaves more, which calls for more spanking. This child is not being taught to develop inner control.

Hitting devalues the parent-child relationship. Corporal punishment puts a distance between the spanker and the spankee. This distance is especially troubling in home situations where the parent-child relationship may already be strained, such as single-parent homes or blended families. While some children are forgivingly resilient and bounce back without a negative impression on mind or body, for others it's hard to love the hand that hits them.

4. HITTING MAY LEAD TO ABUSE

Punishment escalates. Once you begin punishing a child "a little bit," where do you stop? A toddler reaches for a forbidden glass. You tap the hand as a reminder not to touch. He reaches again, you swat the hand. After withdrawing his hand briefly, he once again grabs grandmother's valuable vase. You hit the hand harder. You've begun a game no one can win. The issue then becomes who's stronger—your child's will or your hand—not the problem of touching the vase. What do you do now? Hit harder and harder until the child's hand is so sore he can't possibly continue to "disobey?" The danger of beginning corporal punishment in the first place is that you may feel you have to bring out bigger guns: your hand becomes a fist, the switch becomes a belt, the folded newspaper becomes a wooden spoon, and now what began as seemingly innocent escalates into child abuse. Punishment sets the stage for child abuse. Parents who are programmed to punish set themselves up for punishing harder, mainly because they have not learned alternatives and click immediately into the punishment mode when their child misbehaves.

5. HITTING DOES NOT IMPROVE BEHAVIOR

Many times we have heard parents say, "The more we spank the more he misbehaves." Spanking makes a child's behavior worse, not better. Here's why. Remember the basis for promoting desirable behavior: The child who feels right acts right. Spanking undermines this principle. A child who is hit feels wrong inside and this shows up in his behavior. The more he misbehaves, the more he gets spanked and the worse he feels. The cycle continues. We want the child to know that he did wrong, and to feel remorse, but to still believe that he is a person who has value.

The Cycle of Misbehavior

Misbehavior Worse behavior Spanking Decreased self-esteem, anger

One of the goals of disciplinary action is to stop the misbehavior immediately, and spanking may do that. It is more important to create the conviction within the child that he doesn't want to repeat the misbehavior (i.e, internal rather than external control). One of the reasons for the ineffectiveness of spanking in creating internal controls is that during and immediately after the spanking, the child is so preoccupied with the perceived injustice of the physical punishment (or maybe the degree of it he's getting) that he "forgets" the reason for which he was spanked. Sitting down with him and talking after the spanking to be sure he's aware of what he did can be done just as well (if not better) without the spanking part. Alternatives to spanking can be much more thought-and-conscience-provoking for a child, but they may take more time and energy from the parent. This brings up a main reason why some parents lean toward spanking—it's easier.

6. HITTING IS ACTUALLY NOT BIBLICAL (Not that this would matter to you ;) )

Don't use the Bible as an excuse to spank. There is confusion in the ranks of people of Judeo-Christian heritage who, seeking help from the Bible in their effort to raise godly children, believe that God commands them to spank. They take "spare the rod and spoil the child" seriously and fear that if they don't spank, they will commit the sin of losing control of their child. In our counseling experience, we find that these people are devoted parents who love God and love their children, but they misunderstand the concept of the rod.
Rod verses - what they really mean. The following are the biblical verseswhich have caused the greatest confusion:

"Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him." (Prov. 22:15)

"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." (Prov. 13:24)

"Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death." (Prov. 23:13-14)

"The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to itself disgraces his mother." (Prov. 29:15)

At first glance these verses may sound pro-spanking. But you might consider a different interpretation of these teachings. "Rod" (shebet) means different things in different parts of the Bible. The Hebrew dictionary gives this word various meanings: a stick (for punishment, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.). While the rod could be used for hitting, it was more frequently used for guiding wandering sheep. Shepherds didn't use the rod to beat their sheep - and children are certainly more valuable than sheep. As shepherd-author Philip Keller teaches so well in A Shepherd Looks At Psalm 23, the shepherd's rod was used to fight off prey and the staff was used to gently guide sheep along the right path. ("Your rod and your staff, they comfort me." – Psalm 23:4).

Jewish families we've interviewed, who carefully follow dietary and lifestyle guidelines in the Scripture, do not practice "rod correction" with their children because they do not follow that interpretation of the text.

The book of Proverbs is one of poetry. It is logical that the writer would have used a well-known tool to form an image of authority. We believe that this is the point that God makes about the rod in the Bible – parents take charge of your children. When you re-read the "rod verses," use the concept of parental authority when you come to the word "rod," ratherthan the concept of beating or spanking. It rings true in every instance.

While Christians and Jews believe that the Old Testament is the inspired word of God, it is also a historical text that has been interpreted in many ways over the centuries, sometimes incorrectly in order to support the beliefs of the times. These "rod" verses have been burdened with interpretations about corporal punishment that support human ideas. Other parts of the Bible, especially the New Testament, suggest that respect, authority, and tenderness should be the prevailing attitudes toward children among people of faith.

In the New Testament, Christ modified the traditional eye-for-an-eye system of justice with His turn-the-other-cheek approach. Christ preached gentleness, love, and understanding, and seemed against any harsh use of the rod, as stated by Paul in 1 Cor. 4:21: "Shall I come to you with the whip (rod), or in love and with a gentle spirit?" Paul went on to teach fathers about the importance of not provoking anger in their children (which is what spanking usually does): "Fathers, do not exasperate your children" (Eph. 6:4), and "Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will be discouraged" (Col. 3:21).

In our opinion, nowhere in the Bible does it say you must spank your child to be a godly parent.

SPARE THE ROD!

There are parents who should not spank and children who should not be spanked. Are there factors in your history, your temperament, or your relationship with your child that put you at risk for abusing your child? Are there characteristics in your child that make spanking unwise?

Were you abused as a child?
Do you lose control of yourself easily?
Are you spanking more, with fewer results?
Are you spanking harder?
Is spanking not working?
Do you have a high-need child? A strong-willed child?
Is your child ultrasensitive?
Is your relationship with your child already distant?
Are there present situations that are making you angry, such as financial or marital difficulties or a recent job loss? Are there factors that are lowering your own self-confidence?

If the answer to any of these queries is yes, you would be wise to develop a no-spanking mindset in your home and do your best to come up with non-corporal alternatives. If you find you are unable to do this on your own, talk with someone who can help you.

7. HITTING PROMOTES ANGER - IN CHILDREN AND IN PARENTS

Children often perceive punishment as unfair. They are more likely to rebel against corporal punishment than against other disciplinary techniques. Children do not think rationally like adults, but they do have an innate sense of fairness—though their standards are not the same as adults. This can prevent punishment from working as you hoped it would and can contribute to an angry child. Oftentimes, the sense of unfairness escalates to a feeling of humiliation. When punishment humiliates children they either rebel or withdraw. While spanking may appear to make the child afraid to repeat the misbehavior, it is more likely to make the child fear the spanker.

In our experience, and that of many who have thoroughly researched corporal punishment, children whose behaviors are spank-controlled throughout infancy and childhood may appear outwardly compliant, but inside they are seething with anger. They feel that their personhood has been violated, and they detach themselves from a world they perceive has been unfair to them. They find it difficult to trust, becoming insensitive to a world that has been insensitive to them.

Parents who examine their feelings after spanking often realize that all they have accomplished is to relieve themselves of anger. This impulsive release of anger often becomes addicting—perpetuating a cycle of ineffective discipline. We have found that the best way to prevent ourselves from acting on the impulse to spank is to instill in ourselves two convictions: 1. That we will not spank our children. 2. That we will discipline them. Since we have decided that spanking is not an option, we must seek out better alternatives.

8. HITTING BRINGS BACK BAD MEMORIES

A child's memories of being spanked can scar otherwise joyful scenes of growing up. People are more likely to recall traumatic events than pleasant ones. I grew up in a very nurturing home, but I was occasionally and "deservedly" spanked. I vividly remember the willow branch scenes. After my wrongdoing my grandfather would send me to my room and tell me I was going to receive a spanking. I remember looking out the window, seeing him walk across the lawn and take a willow branch from the tree and come back to my room and spank me across the back of my thighs with the branch. The willow branch seemed to be an effective spanking tool because it stung and made an impression upon me— physically and mentally. Although I remember growing up in a loving home, I don't remember specific happy scenes with nearly as much detail as I remember the spanking scenes. I have always thought that one of our goals as parents is to fill our children's memory bank with hundreds, perhaps thousands, of pleasant scenes. It's amazing how the unpleasant memories of spankings can block out those positive memories.

ABUSIVE HITTING HAS BAD LONG-TERM EFFECTS

Research has shown that spanking may leave scars deeper and more lasting than a fleeting redness of the bottom. Here is a summary of the research on the long-term effects of corporal punishment:

In a prospective study spanning nineteen years, researchers found that children who were raised in homes with a lot of corporal punishment, turned out to be more antisocial and egocentric, and that physical violence became the accepted norm for these children when they became teenagers and adults.

College students showed more psychological disturbances if they grew up in a home with less praise, more scolding, more corporal punishment, and more verbal abuse.

A survey of 679 college students showed that those who recall being spanked as children accepted spanking as a way of discipline and intended to spank their own children. Students who were not spanked as children were significantly less accepting of the practice than those who were spanked. The spanked students also reported remembering that their parents were angry during the spanking; they remembered both the spanking and the attitude with which it was administered.

Spanking seems to have the most negative long-term effects when it replaces positive communication with the child. Spanking had less damaging long-term effects if given in a loving home and nurturing environment.

A study of the effects of physical punishment on children's later aggressive behavior showed that the more frequently a child was given physical punishment, the more likely it was that he would behave aggressively toward other family members and peers. Spanking caused less aggression if it was done in an overall nurturing environment and the child was always given a rational explanation of why the spanking occurred.

A study to determine whether hand slapping had any long-term effects showed that toddlers who were punished with a light slap on the hand showed delayed exploratory development seven months later.

Adults who received a lot of physical punishment as teenagers had a rate of spouse-beating that was four times greater than those whose parents did not hit them.

Husbands who grew up in severely violent homes are six times more likely to beat their wives than men raised in non-violent homes.
More than 1 out of 4 parents who had grown up in a violent home were violent enough to risk seriously injuring their child.
Studies of prison populations show that most violent criminals grew up in a violent home environment.

The life history of notorious, violent criminals, murderers, muggers, rapists, etc., are likely to show a history of excessive physical discipline in childhood.
The evidence against spanking is overwhelming. Hundreds of studies all come to the same conclusions:

1. The more physical punishment a child receives, the more aggressive he or she will become.
2. The more children are spanked, the more likely they will be abusive toward their own children.
3. Spanking plants seeds for later violent behavior.4.Spanking doesn't work.

10. SPANKING DOESN'T WORK

Many studies show the futility of spanking as a disciplinary technique, but none show its usefulness. In the past thirty years in pediatric practice, we have observed thousands of families who have tried spanking and found it doesn't work. Our general impression is that parents spank less as their experience increases. Spanking doesn't work for the child, for the parents, or for society. Spanking does not promote good behavior, it creates a distance between parent and child, and it contributes to a violent society. Parents who rely on punishment as their primary mode of discipline don't grow in their knowledge of their child. It keeps them from creating better alternatives, which would help them to know their child and build a better relationship. In the process of raising our own eight children, we have also concluded that spanking doesn't work. We found ourselves spanking less and less as our experience and the number of children increased. In our home, we have programmed ourselves against spanking and are committed to creating an attitude within our children, and an atmosphere within our home, that renders spanking unnecessary. Since spanking is not an option, we have been forced to come up with better alternatives. This has not only made us better parents, but in the long run we believe it has created more sensitive and well-behaved children.
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#273 J.R.

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:38 AM

And for all the people complaining about "out of control" kids etc... even in your own examples you say things like "the mother just stands there and laughs". Well guess what, THAT is the problem, it's a lack of parenting and follow through, NOT a lack of abuse.

The child should have clear consequences for negative actions clear benefits to positive ones. This all requires time and actual effort from the parents.

A good example I heard from my wife was someone she knows has young boy who was displeased with his inexpensive hockey stick and wanted a near $200 composite one that his friends had. He asked for it but was told they couldn't afford it my his parents. He then decided that he would take his father's saw to his current stick so they'd HAVE to replace it. After initially being upset with him, one of the parents shortly caved and bought him the composite stick.

What's lacking here is not physical punishment for the child but some actual parenting. If they were doing it they could have even suggested him doing things like extra chores, cutting neighbours grass etc to earn extra money and offer to help pay for a more expensive stick BEFORE he took a saw to the existing one and needed punishing for bad behaviour.
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#274 J.R.

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:41 AM

Just some things to think about JR, for when those twins of yours arrive and you and the Mrs are considering how to discipline them as they grow up. May want to have a talk about it with her. Just some food for thought my friend.


Edited my original post before you got yours in Sharp. I'm against "traditional" spanking when I say spank I mean a light rap on the bottom, more as an attention getter when required rather than any punishment.
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#275 Raoul Duke

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:45 AM

"YOU GOIN TO JAIL......." BOOM! I've rewound that like eight times. So good!
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#276 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:47 AM

And for all the people complaining about "out of control" kids etc... even in your own examples you say things like "the mother just stands there and laughs". Well guess what, THAT is the problem, it's a lack of parenting and follow through, NOT a lack of abuse.

The child should have clear consequences for negative actions clear benefits to positive ones. This all requires time and actual effort from the parents.

A good example I heard from my wife was someone she knows has young boy who was displeased with his inexpensive hockey stick and wanted a near $200 composite one that his friends had. He asked for it but was told they couldn't afford it my his parents. He then decided that he would take his father's saw to his current stick so they'd HAVE to replace it. After initially being upset with him, one of the parents shortly caved and bought him the composite stick.

What's lacking here is not physical punishment for the child but some actual parenting. If they were doing it they could have even suggested him doing things like extra chores, cutting neighbours grass etc to earn extra money and offer to help pay for a more expensive stick BEFORE he took a saw to the existing one and needed punishing for bad behaviour.


Good point.

Another option would be to talk to the child about that $200 composite stick and agree to buy it for him, if he agrees that they'd have to cut back with other luxury purchases like video games, or junk food trips to McDonalds, or other things, so that he becomes involved with the purchasing/sacrificing process. It not only teaches him that in order to get what he wants, he'll have to make sacrifices(which is a good lesson to learn early imo) but that there's a value to money, and in learning about living within one's means.
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#277 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:50 AM

Edited my original post before you got yours in Sharp. I'm against "traditional" spanking when I say spank I mean a light rap on the bottom, more as an attention getter when required rather than any punishment.


I hear ya, and I wonder what the point, or the efficacy, of a light 'rap' is over a more non-physical alternative to behaviour modification or guidance?

Why not just leave the 'rap' out of one's child rearing repertoire altogether?
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#278 Markus Alexander Cody

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:52 AM

The video is down. :(



DAMN SON WHAT AN UPPERCUT

Edited by Markus Alexander Cody, 15 October 2012 - 11:05 AM.

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credit to allons-y

Certainly going to be our #1 defensemen. Give him a couple more years to improve his game and he'll be our new and improved version of Matthias Ohlund in no time

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#279 J.R.

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:58 AM

I hear ya, and I wonder what the point, or the efficacy, of a light 'rap' is over a more non-physical alternative to behaviour modification or guidance?

Why not just leave the 'rap' out of one's child rearing repertoire altogether?


As I said, it's a last resort. If a child is having a tantrum etc and is unreachable to communicate with in more standard means, a quick pat on the but can get their attention. Personally, I hope to never have to use it.
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#280 debluvscanucks

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:27 AM

I honestly can't believe anyone finds this "funny". It made me feel sick. The driver did nothing professional in diffusing the situation...he was helping to escalate it. Had he just ignored her, chances are it would have been a done deal.

Nope, can't support this one single bit. An act of violence is never the answer, even if in response to an act of violence. Honestly, toss her off the bus and close the door......would have been better than this.

I don't condone this idiot girl's actions but, when on the job, you take charge of the situation and this could have ended up a bloody free for all because he was fully engaged in the confrontational aspect of things. If nothing else, the safety of his other passengers was jeopardized by his actions...what if she pulled out a gun? I understand that this incites a positive reaction from viewers because he's seen as the underdog/victim and fights back. But I don't think it was appropriate at all - man, that was quite a blow.
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#281 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:34 AM

As I said, it's a last resort. If a child is having a tantrum etc and is unreachable to communicate with in more standard means, a quick pat on the but can get their attention. Personally, I hope to never have to use it.


You couldn't figure out an alternative way to 'get their attention'?

I still don't understand this 'last resort' mentality. Are you suggesting that you would try every method possible first and if they fail then you'd resort to 'lightly rapping' your child?

You really think that all the possible alternatives wouldn't be more effective than striking a child?

Also, consider that while you may intend your light, gentle 'love-tap' to be a corrective measure or an attention getter....that isn't necessarily going to be how it's interpreted by the child. Read that article I posted above again.

There's no harm in changing your opinion on this matter either. Sometimes we tend to get entrenched in our positions, even ones we're not overly attached to. Just throwing that out there bud. And if you're married to this child rearing technique, then that's alright by me too. I'm just trying to flesh out the discussion a bit, is all.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 15 October 2012 - 11:37 AM.

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#282 J.R.

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:44 AM

You couldn't figure out an alternative way to 'get their attention'?

I still don't understand this 'last resort' mentality. Are you suggesting that you would try every method possible first and if they fail then you'd resort to 'lightly rapping' your child?

You really think that all the possible alternatives wouldn't be more effective than striking a child?

Also, consider that while you may intend your light, gentle 'love-tap' to be a corrective measure or an attention getter....that isn't necessarily going to be how it's interpreted by the child. Read that article I posted above again.

There's no harm in changing your opinion on this matter either. Sometimes we tend to get entrenched in our positions, even ones we're not overly attached to. Just throwing that out there bud. And if you're married to this child rearing technique, then that's alright by me too. I'm just trying to flesh out the discussion a bit, is all.


As I said, I hope to be able to get their attention in other ways and never have to use it but if they're still not responsive I'm not opposed to a light pat on the bum to get their attention. I wouldn't consider a pat on the bum "abusive".

Heck I give my dog a pat on his bum when he's good :lol:
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#283 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:46 AM

I honestly can't believe anyone finds this "funny". It made me feel sick. The driver did nothing professional in diffusing the situation...he was helping to escalate it. Had he just ignored her, chances are it would have been a done deal.

Nope, can't support this one single bit. An act of violence is never the answer, even if in response to an act of violence. Honestly, toss her off the bus and close the door......would have been better than this.

I don't condone this idiot girl's actions but, when on the job, you take charge of the situation and this could have ended up a bloody free for all because he was fully engaged in the confrontational aspect of things. If nothing else, the safety of his other passengers was jeopardized by his actions...what if she pulled out a gun? I understand that this incites a positive reaction from viewers because he's seen as the underdog/victim and fights back. But I don't think it was appropriate at all - man, that was quite a blow.


You're right. He should have handled it better, and he had many opportunities to, like, when she first started chirping, or when she got up to confront him, or when she hit him. All those times, he could have radioed in to his dispatch to contact authorities about an unruly passenger who was endangering the other passengers by distracting him from operating the bus safely. He could have stopped the bus at any time and gotten off it himself, removing himself from the situation, until she got off the bus herself or authorities arrived. It seems the heat of the moment and perhaps the lack of training, or the reliance on his training got the better of him. The consequences are certainly borne out of his poor judgement as much as they are due to the girl's behaviour.
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#284 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:48 AM

As I said, I hope to be able to get their attention in other ways and never have to use it but if they're still not responsive I'm not opposed to a light pat on the bum to get their attention. I wouldn't consider a pat on the bum "abusive".

Heck I give my dog a pat on his bum when he's good :lol:


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#285 debluvscanucks

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:48 AM

As for spanking, my expert (ha) opinion is that it's usually more about the parents venting at that stage than it is anything constructive. I feel that kids tend to "listen/hear" much better if a parent looks them in the eye and can remain calm...spanking usually shows more of a loss of control and the kid can also lose focus at that point.

As a parent, I couldnt' bring myself to spanking my kids because, for me, it breached the trust of "I'll never hurt you". I wanted them always to know I wouldn't but people will argue that that's the problem - kids KNOW they won't be punished. That's not the case - forms of punishment that usually hit them the hardest are when you start stripping away their privileges...that hurts them in a way that doesn't have the potential to emotionally scar them.

It's not a right/wrong thing though - it's for each parent to determine themselves (provided it doesn't cross the line).
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#286 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:56 AM

As for spanking, my expert (ha) opinion is that it's usually more about the parents venting at that stage than it is anything constructive. I feel that kids tend to "listen/hear" much better if a parent looks them in the eye and can remain calm...spanking usually shows more of a loss of control and the kid can also lose focus at that point.

As a parent, I couldnt' bring myself to spanking my kids because, for me, it breached the trust of "I'll never hurt you". I wanted them always to know I wouldn't but people will argue that that's the problem - kids KNOW they won't be punished. That's not the case - forms of punishment that usually hit them the hardest are when you start stripping away their privileges...that hurts them in a way that doesn't have the potential to emotionally scar them.

It's not a right/wrong thing though - it's for each parent to determine themselves (provided it doesn't cross the line).


And that's sort of the point to the discussion we've been having, in that, corporal punishment to some, such as myself and it seems to you, is crossing 'the line'.

I also never really liked that 'let parents determine themselves' mantra. What's the difference between disciplining a child with force and disciplining a spouse or parent by force? Couldn't we, as a society, make the same argument, as we once did about letting spouses figure out things for themselves and not to interfere with their marriage? And i'm merely pointing out the similarity in logic behind both statements.
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#287 Jägermeister

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:35 PM

IMO, there is no wrong or right answer to spanking or other mild forms of physical punishment.
Some children will respond positively, and others will respond negatively.
At the same time, other forms of punishment (time-outs, sitting in a corner, lectures) will work on some children but not others.
Is it the best option? Probably not, especially if it were to be used as the primary form of punishment. But for some kids in some cases it could very well be the best option available.
Personally, I would prefer never having to spank my future kids.

Of course for the most part these "out of control" kids are to blame because of poor parenting.
I work as a lifeguard, and I have had to teach some children that 100% do not responding to any sort of punishment (making them sit at the edge of the pool, not letting them play games, etc) and are completely out of control. When you add in the fact I have 3-5 other kids I have to supervise at the same time, it is obviously a big problem if I have to give so much attention to just one.
So I go and talk to their parents and ask them if they have any tips that could help me get their kid under control, and it's amazing how often I get a nice little "yeah little so-and-so can be a handful sometimes!" or "they're just getting excited from swimming!", and get no other input.
Then they get mad at me when I fail their kid because they wouldn't listen and was busy goofing off all lesson.
My sister is also a lifeguard, and she actually had a mother try and file a complaint on her for sitting a kid (he was about 3 or 4) up on the side of the pool because he kept running away into the deep end.
It's always been a wonder to me that parents don't realize that if the treat their child like a spoiled brat, then they are probably going to become a spoiled brat.

Edited by Jagermeister, 15 October 2012 - 12:47 PM.

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#288 Jester@wraiths.ca

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:39 PM

I'm surprised that there are some really intelligent folks in this thread advocating for physically assaulting their children as a means for discipline. The obliviousness to perpetuating the notion that you should use physical violence to solve your problems, especially with young children is remarkable. Is it safe to assume you people hit your pets as well?


No matter how evolved we get, people do learn because of consequences. In today's "discipline" for children, what exactly are the consequences? I see far more poorly behaved kids than I ever remember seeing when I was young. When I see them all I can think is "wow, if I'd done that, my mom/dad would have spanked me". That possibility of spanking meant acting poorly had an actual consequence I wouldn't want to have happen. Now, I see kids running the show. What are you gonna do, "you're in time out"? Fine the kid can sit there in "time out" and scream his head off or just keep on doing what he was doing anyways. There is no deterrent, no consequence that teaches someone not to behave a certain way.

People can say that spanking a kid is beating and will make that person into someone that would beat others, but really doesn't it seem the opposite? Look at out current society, with no spankings, and the how bad bullying has gotten. People showing no concern at all for others, treating other people like they're worthless. This is the product of a generation growing up without consequences for their actions, without anything to deter their behavior.

When I was a little kid walking home from school one day, a way bigger kid that liked to bully smaller kids decided he wanted to beat on me. He was flinging me around and a car slammed on the brakes and a guy jumped out of the car and ran over, grabbed that older kid and threw him on the ground saying "How do you like being thrown around by someone bigger?!" The kid wasn't hurt, but ya know what, he never came near me again and nobody else I knew got bullied by the guy again either... He faced a consequence and didn't like it, he learned his actions had consequences. that just doesn't seem to happen these days.

That girl in the video, pushing/hitting the driver while he was driving could have caused an accident. Maybe he shouldn't have uppercut her, but I believe she needed to be deterred. Her interview after says now she would handle the situation differently, she would just get off the bus. Oh look, she suffered a consequence and now she has learned not to be an ignorant bitch.
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#289 MillerGenuineDraft

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:51 PM

I am ever so thankful I do not live in a place like this.

By "this" I mean a 14 year old girl screaming "nigga" every 5 seconds. Dear god.
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#290 Tearloch7

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:52 PM

As I said, I hope to be able to get their attention in other ways and never have to use it but if they're still not responsive I'm not opposed to a light pat on the bum to get their attention. I wouldn't consider a pat on the bum "abusive".

Heck I give my dog a pat on his bum when he's good :lol:


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#291 J.R.

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:03 PM

IMO, there is no wrong or right answer to spanking or other mild forms of physical punishment.
Some children will respond positively, and others will respond negatively.
At the same time, other forms of punishment (time-outs, sitting in a corner, lectures) will work on some children but not others.
Is it the best option? Probably not, especially if it were to be used as the primary form of punishment. But for some kids in some cases it could very well be the best option available.
Personally, I would prefer never having to spank my future kids.

Of course for the most part these "out of control" kids are to blame because of poor parenting.
I work as a lifeguard, and I have had to teach some children that 100% do not responding to any sort of punishment (making them sit at the edge of the pool, not letting them play games, etc) and are completely out of control. When you add in the fact I have 3-5 other kids I have to supervise at the same time, it is obviously a big problem if I have to give so much attention to just one.
So I go and talk to their parents and ask them if they have any tips that could help me get their kid under control, and it's amazing how often I get a nice little "yeah little so-and-so can be a handful sometimes!" or "they're just getting excited from swimming!", and get no other input.
Then they get mad at me when I fail their kid because they wouldn't listen and was busy goofing off all lesson.
My sister is also a lifeguard, and she actually had a mother try and file a complaint on her for sitting a kid (he was about 3 or 4) up on the side of the pool because he kept running away into the deep end.
It's always been a wonder to me that parents don't realize that if the treat their child like a spoiled brat, then they are probably going to become a spoiled brat.

No matter how evolved we get, people do learn because of consequences. In today's "discipline" for children, what exactly are the consequences? I see far more poorly behaved kids than I ever remember seeing when I was young. When I see them all I can think is "wow, if I'd done that, my mom/dad would have spanked me". That possibility of spanking meant acting poorly had an actual consequence I wouldn't want to have happen. Now, I see kids running the show. What are you gonna do, "you're in time out"? Fine the kid can sit there in "time out" and scream his head off or just keep on doing what he was doing anyways. There is no deterrent, no consequence that teaches someone not to behave a certain way.

People can say that spanking a kid is beating and will make that person into someone that would beat others, but really doesn't it seem the opposite? Look at out current society, with no spankings, and the how bad bullying has gotten. People showing no concern at all for others, treating other people like they're worthless. This is the product of a generation growing up without consequences for their actions, without anything to deter their behavior.

When I was a little kid walking home from school one day, a way bigger kid that liked to bully smaller kids decided he wanted to beat on me. He was flinging me around and a car slammed on the brakes and a guy jumped out of the car and ran over, grabbed that older kid and threw him on the ground saying "How do you like being thrown around by someone bigger?!" The kid wasn't hurt, but ya know what, he never came near me again and nobody else I knew got bullied by the guy again either... He faced a consequence and didn't like it, he learned his actions had consequences. that just doesn't seem to happen these days.

That girl in the video, pushing/hitting the driver while he was driving could have caused an accident. Maybe he shouldn't have uppercut her, but I believe she needed to be deterred. Her interview after says now she would handle the situation differently, she would just get off the bus. Oh look, she suffered a consequence and now she has learned not to be an ignorant bitch.


Both these posts seem to clearly indicate a need for BETTER PARENTING, not physical punishment.

Particularly your example Jester...where do you think that bully child learned his negative, physical behaviour from? I'm glad that the child stopped bullying other kids but would it not be better if he'd not learned to start doing it in the first place from his own parents?
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#292 Jägermeister

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:15 PM

Both these posts seem to clearly indicate a need for BETTER PARENTING, not physical punishment.


Yep.
The thing that bugs me most at work is parents trying to justify their childs actions when they were clearly misbehaving, and putting other kids at risk.
It happens far too often. I feel like those parents haven't even tried to control their child.

Edited by Jagermeister, 15 October 2012 - 01:18 PM.

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#293 J.R.

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:19 PM

Yep.
The thing that bugs me most at work is parents trying to justify their childs actions when they were clearly misbehaving, and putting other kids at risk.
It happens far too often. I feel like those parents haven't even tried to control their child.


Or like you said, when parents blame YOU rather than their own kid for the poor behaviour and/or performance. That one REALLY drives me nuts.
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#294 J.R.

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:20 PM

I just KNEW you were a perv .. ::D


True...but for so many reasons besides that :lol:
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#295 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:26 PM

No matter how evolved we get, people do learn because of consequences. In today's "discipline" for children, what exactly are the consequences? I see far more poorly behaved kids than I ever remember seeing when I was young. When I see them all I can think is "wow, if I'd done that, my mom/dad would have spanked me". That possibility of spanking meant acting poorly had an actual consequence I wouldn't want to have happen. Now, I see kids running the show. What are you gonna do, "you're in time out"? Fine the kid can sit there in "time out" and scream his head off or just keep on doing what he was doing anyways. There is no deterrent, no consequence that teaches someone not to behave a certain way.


'Timeouts' seem to be the go-to response for people who want to advocate spanking their children, it seems to me. That's certainly only one non-violent approach to a situation. You do know that there are plenty more right??

And while I appreciate that in your personal anecdote the violence you received stopped you from the unwanted behaviour, your personal anecdote and outcome isn't the case for many kids, who either act out in other ways after being spanked, or who suffer emotional or psychological harm, even if they don't suffer any lasting physical harm. Child psychological and emotional development are just as important as their physical development, wouldn't you agree? If we take care not to injure a child by hitting them, doesn't it strike you(excuse the pun) that it would be just as important not to risk emotionally or psychologically injuring/scaring the child as well as ensuring that we don't physically injure or scar them? Think about that for a minute. There's plenty of evidence and studies that show that there are real adverse consequences to being spanked as a child, even if there weren't for some. Do we as a society make laws and regulations only when everyone is potentially at risk for being adversely affected, or do we make laws for all of society even when there's a risk of harm to 'some'? I find it curious and bewildering why we don't equate and find the emotional and psychological harm to a child as equal to and despicable as we do physical harm and injury to a child....even one's own.

Also, spanking seems to be a quick fix, and things like time-outs and removal of privileges and other non-violent methods of child-rearing take time and patience to reach their desired effectiveness. When you see those 'out of control kids', i bet you want them to get a quick smack to stop them right away, cause that'll learn em right? Well, healthy learning is gradual. And it seems that this me-first attitude of quick results now, may be driving your need to see a child, whose acting out and being dealt with a 'time-out', to get what some would consider a last resort option as a means of first resort remedy. Does this seem civilized to you? Or something that one with hopefully superior critical thinking skill(though not all parents or adults seem to have this ability) would be able to work out, without resorting to violence? What does that teach the child then? Sure, it's good for you, because you don't have to see these kids 'act out', but aren't you sounding more like you care about what's best for you moreso than what's best for the child?

People can say that spanking a kid is beating and will make that person into someone that would beat others, but really doesn't it seem the opposite? Look at out current society, with no spankings, and the how bad bullying has gotten. People showing no concern at all for others, treating other people like they're worthless. This is the product of a generation growing up without consequences for their actions, without anything to deter their behavior.


Studies have shown that kids who are bullied are at higher risk to bully others or act out violently towards themselves as well. If you bully a bully, do you really think their bullying will stop?? So what is spanking, other than a form of a 'bigger kid' lashing out at a smaller one. It's ironic that parents who spank their children then go and hypocritically tell their kids to not hit people if you have a problem with them. Don't you see how a child can get terribly confused by that? Or why they may go with the approach do as mommy and daddy do? Violence does not deter violence....it begets it. That's not even a debate.

When I was a little kid walking home from school one day, a way bigger kid that liked to bully smaller kids decided he wanted to beat on me. He was flinging me around and a car slammed on the brakes and a guy jumped out of the car and ran over, grabbed that older kid and threw him on the ground saying "How do you like being thrown around by someone bigger?!" The kid wasn't hurt, but ya know what, he never came near me again and nobody else I knew got bullied by the guy again either... He faced a consequence and didn't like it, he learned his actions had consequences. that just doesn't seem to happen these days.


It doesn't happen nowadays, because it's called assault. Throwing a child to the ground as an adult is a criminal offence. I bet you had the adult faced the consequence of going to jail, losing his job, and losing his freedom, he'd never touch another child again. See? Violent behaviour also has its consequences. Just like in the case of the bus driver. If there are better ways to deal with a situation than violence between two adults, then doesn't logic tell you that there is also a better way to resolve something between a child and an adult?

That girl in the video, pushing/hitting the driver while he was driving could have caused an accident. Maybe he shouldn't have uppercut her, but I believe she needed to be deterred. Her interview after says now she would handle the situation differently, she would just get off the bus. Oh look, she suffered a consequence and now she has learned not to be an ignorant bitch.


Did the fact that she was hit by someone teach her a lesson, or did the fact that it went viral and the comments about her deserving what she got for being the aggressor of a physical confrontation, shame her into introspection about her own actions, while on national television? Do you think that her being caught on tape being arrested and not being hit would have also have taught her a lesson?

Ever consider because you were hit as a kid and bullied, it now, as an adult also seems to have found a way into your own perpetuation of violence as an answer for deterrence or discipline or a lesson that needs to be taught? Just saying.
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#296 GLASSJAW

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:28 PM

good grief
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#297 ronthecivil

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:29 PM

Good point.

Another option would be to talk to the child about that $200 composite stick and agree to buy it for him, if he agrees that they'd have to cut back with other luxury purchases like video games, or junk food trips to McDonalds, or other things, so that he becomes involved with the purchasing/sacrificing process. It not only teaches him that in order to get what he wants, he'll have to make sacrifices(which is a good lesson to learn early imo) but that there's a value to money, and in learning about living within one's means.


Or better yet remind the bastard that outside of clothing, food, shelter, and medical attention everything else is a privilege. In the meantime go out and find a five dollar stick as a replacement and institute a period of additional chores to pay for the 60 dollar stick in addition to a removal of thing like video games and junk food.

The sooner one knocks the sense of entitlement out of someone (many adults could use this) the better.
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#298 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:35 PM

Or better yet remind the bastard that outside of clothing, food, shelter, and medical attention everything else is a privilege. In the meantime go out and find a five dollar stick as a replacement and institute a period of additional chores to pay for the 60 dollar stick in addition to a removal of thing like video games and junk food.

The sooner one knocks the sense of entitlement out of someone (many adults could use this) the better.


I'm genuinely surprised you don't let the little bastards go out and forage for their own food, after all, you are giving them a place to sleep at the end of the night, and some hay in the corner to rest up in.
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#299 Dellins

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:38 PM

Yep.
The thing that bugs me most at work is parents trying to justify their childs actions when they were clearly misbehaving, and putting other kids at risk.
It happens far too often. I feel like those parents haven't even tried to control their child.


"Leave my kid alone, he's just expressing himself!"
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#300 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:44 PM

Good point.

Another option would be to talk to the child about that $200 composite stick and agree to buy it for him, if he agrees that they'd have to cut back with other luxury purchases like video games, or junk food trips to McDonalds, or other things, so that he becomes involved with the purchasing/sacrificing process. It not only teaches him that in order to get what he wants, he'll have to make sacrifices(which is a good lesson to learn early imo) but that there's a value to money, and in learning about living within one's means.


Right on brother .
The great thing about being a human , is our ability to reason .
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