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#331 ManUtd

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:35 PM

And go back farther. Your chart is nice in that it doesn't demonstrate how much lower is was decades before that at the height of the tanned hides eras... nor does it show that in the last few years, suicides among teen girls in some countries had risen by 76%...

It's fine, you don't think consequences are beneficial, that's your right to think that. I think you couldn't be more wrong, and it's my right to think that. Maybe when someone close to you dies because of the actions of people who just never learned to care about anyone but themselves, or that tormenting others is wrong, you'll look at things differently.

If the busdriver had run someone over because of the chick hitting him, people would be saying "why didn't someone punch that bitch..."


Something like that really needs to be looked at in conjunction with attempt rate in order to really gain something meaningful. While men have a much higher suicide rate (I think it's something like 4x greater than women) women actually have a higher suicide attempt rate (3-4x greater than men). Without the corresponding attempt rate it's pretty well impossible to suss out what that increase is really reflecting. It could just as easily be that these girls are now using more lethal means as it is some broader problem driving them to suicide. It's concerning no matter what just in different ways.

Edited by ManUtd, 15 October 2012 - 06:36 PM.

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#332 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:05 PM

I'm on your side of the debate but to suggest that homicide peaked during the 70s because of corporal punishment is a bit of a reach. It's much more likely because of the baby boomers and the age prime cohort for homicide (young males) being at their largest proportion of the total population.


I wasn't suggesting that. And the person that plussed you seemingly didn't bother taking the time to comprehend my post. Just giving a shout out to them as well. One of my many satisfied customers, no doubt. ;)

I wasn't tying corporal punishment to homicide per se, but rather I was showing how the fallacy of how crime appearing to be worse today than it was in the 'good ol' days', is fallacious, as is suggesting that kids are more 'out of control today' or any of the other generalizations made comparatively to 'today' versus the age back in the day when 'tanning someone's hide' was 'good parenting'.
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#333 Jester@wraiths.ca

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:42 PM

In this you have a black and white view, as if there is no grey. Because I say a kid may learn from a slap on the ass that does no damage but makes them feel a consequence for their action, you make it sound like i advocate beating the tar out of them.

You say it's a fallacy that our society is producing a generation of uncaring individuals, but all we have to do is look around and you're bombarded by stories that illustrate it. The volume of people continuing to torment a dead girl online, tormenting her family and friends in the process paints a much different picture of society than you have. We have a riot in this town and it's the minority that showed any morals, and the rest beat them for it. Things aren't worse now? All through school, I never once heard of someone killing themselves in the schools I was in, now it's regular news. Getting in a fight meant you were in a fight with another person, now it means you're probably getting swarmed by a dozen guys. There actually was more respect for other people in the past, maybe you never saw it, who knows, but respecting another isn't the norm these days.

I am sick to F'ing death with the way society as a whole is. Disrespect of anyone that isn't you is the standard now. Who cares about anyone else, it's all about you and that's it. It's a sport to torment, belittle, and piss off people. Kids growing up with no consequences, which is only magnified by "online" lives where they're anonymous and can say and do anything they want (with no consequences) perpetuates the problem. A day ago 3 guys beat a security guard with pipes, in Poco for no reason at all, then just left him there. You're right, society is really getting better, you can just feel it.
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#334 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:29 PM

In this you have a black and white view, as if there is no grey. Because I say a kid may learn from a slap on the ass that does no damage but makes them feel a consequence for their action, you make it sound like i advocate beating the tar out of them.

You say it's a fallacy that our society is producing a generation of uncaring individuals, but all we have to do is look around and you're bombarded by stories that illustrate it. The volume of people continuing to torment a dead girl online, tormenting her family and friends in the process paints a much different picture of society than you have. We have a riot in this town and it's the minority that showed any morals, and the rest beat them for it. Things aren't worse now? All through school, I never once heard of someone killing themselves in the schools I was in, now it's regular news. Getting in a fight meant you were in a fight with another person, now it means you're probably getting swarmed by a dozen guys. There actually was more respect for other people in the past, maybe you never saw it, who knows, but respecting another isn't the norm these days.

I am sick to F'ing death with the way society as a whole is. Disrespect of anyone that isn't you is the standard now. Who cares about anyone else, it's all about you and that's it. It's a sport to torment, belittle, and piss off people. Kids growing up with no consequences, which is only magnified by "online" lives where they're anonymous and can say and do anything they want (with no consequences) perpetuates the problem. A day ago 3 guys beat a security guard with pipes, in Poco for no reason at all, then just left him there. You're right, society is really getting better, you can just feel it.


Well said.

Especially when it comes to bashing a dead girl. You have to be a real cowardly piece of trash to go about doing that.
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#335 pianoman13

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:38 AM

I don't know where ppl are getting their information, but it is legal for a parent to spank their child in Canada and all 50 states. Just google it, found tons of information.
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#336 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:19 AM

As the bus driver said, she wanted to be a man and physically confront the driver sitting in his seat where he's supposed to be.. she gets what's coming to her. Can't use the "but she's a wommmannnnnn!" excuse at that point.

Oops, sorry, I steered this discussion off-topic to the (adult) bus driver incident, resume on topic discussion of spanking children.

Edited by zaibatsu, 16 October 2012 - 09:23 AM.

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#337 J.R.

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:51 AM

Your side of the fence keeps saying other consequences... what is effective? We're in the era of a generation growing up with minimal physical consequence for their actions, and it's more like we're raising a society of completely uncaring psychopaths. Is no physical consequence working really well? really?

You've got timeouts, grounding, scolding, taking away privileged, and opposite, rewarding for good behavior etc. I don't see any of that as particularly effective. I got grounded as a kid, i got scolded. I had TV privileges taken away. But the one thing that made me far less likely to do something was thinking I might get spanked for it. And honestly I think I got spanked once ever, yet it made more of a difference than anything else...

But it's fine, I guess I just view our society different. It's all good. random attacks on people for fun are good. Tormenting people is A-OK. I wonder how the next generation that gets raised by these wonderful people will be?


And I'm telling you that your largely fallacious theory of "worsening society", based some some idiotic kids behaviour that is simply more widely reported on, is likely due to THOSE kids having no/little consequences AT ALL. It's not because they weren't physically punished, it's because they weren't parented at all or very little. In fact, though there's no way to find this out, I'd bet a lot of those little jerks WERE spanked as kids.

You show me a kid who lacks respect and misbehaves, I'll show you parents who are not involved and don't provide consequences and follow through on them. It has nothing, nada, zilch to do with whether they hit their kids and everything to do with an utter lack of parenting skills or use of them.

Edited by J.R., 16 October 2012 - 09:51 AM.

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#338 Sharpshooter

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:01 AM

As the bus driver said, she wanted to be a man and physically confront the driver sitting in his seat where he's supposed to be.. she gets what's coming to her. Can't use the "but she's a wommmannnnnn!" excuse at that point.

Oops, sorry, I steered this discussion off-topic to the (adult) bus driver incident, resume on topic discussion of spanking children.


You'd be better off talking about spanking, since you clearly can't comprehend that the onus was on the bus driver to handle the situation differently as a professional, and that striking her as he did was not giving her what she deserved. Might does not always make right in the civilized world the rest of us live in. You're as bad as some of the kids in this thread with that "she get's what's coming to her" garbage.
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#339 Sharpshooter

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:09 AM

In this you have a black and white view, as if there is no grey. Because I say a kid may learn from a slap on the ass that does no damage but makes them feel a consequence for their action, you make it sound like i advocate beating the tar out of them.

You say it's a fallacy that our society is producing a generation of uncaring individuals, but all we have to do is look around and you're bombarded by stories that illustrate it. The volume of people continuing to torment a dead girl online, tormenting her family and friends in the process paints a much different picture of society than you have. We have a riot in this town and it's the minority that showed any morals, and the rest beat them for it. Things aren't worse now? All through school, I never once heard of someone killing themselves in the schools I was in, now it's regular news. Getting in a fight meant you were in a fight with another person, now it means you're probably getting swarmed by a dozen guys. There actually was more respect for other people in the past, maybe you never saw it, who knows, but respecting another isn't the norm these days.

I am sick to F'ing death with the way society as a whole is. Disrespect of anyone that isn't you is the standard now. Who cares about anyone else, it's all about you and that's it. It's a sport to torment, belittle, and piss off people. Kids growing up with no consequences, which is only magnified by "online" lives where they're anonymous and can say and do anything they want (with no consequences) perpetuates the problem. A day ago 3 guys beat a security guard with pipes, in Poco for no reason at all, then just left him there. You're right, society is really getting better, you can just feel it.


You should look around and see all the good that the youth are doing around you as well before re-signing to this notion that this generation is one of uncaring individuals. I could litter this thread about articles where youth are doing something positive, but you seem to want to stubbornly cling to this conclusion you've made and which you don't want to step back from.

Your personal anecdotes don't mean much, because crap like that happened 50 years ago as well. Should we paint that entire generation with the same brush as well, since we're painting generations with wide swaths of judgement based on a narrow set of parameters?

You also still don't seem to be able to acknowledge that kids suffer psychological and emotional damage, even if they don't suffer physical damage from being hit, and sometimes that carries on with them for a longer period of time and shapes their behaviour moreso which can also have long term negative consequences.

Do you acknowledge that psychological and emotional trauma from being hit is real and can have a lasting? Just answer that.
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#340 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:18 AM

You'd be better off talking about spanking, since you clearly can't comprehend that the onus was on the bus driver to handle the situation differently as a professional, and that striking her as he did was not giving her what she deserved. Might does not always make right in the civilized world the rest of us live in. You're as bad as some of the kids in this thread with that "she get's what's coming to her" garbage.

Nah, I won't follow you in your off topic discussion of spanking, trollbait, but I will discuss the incident here.. I'd love to see you here as the bus driver. You'd what, sit there and cry as she hit you, grabbed your throat, and knocked your communication device out of your hand when trying to use it? You believe bus driver should be a violent and unruly lady's piñata? That sure would make for some entertainment. :lol:

In the real world, the bus driver is responsible for people on the bus, making sure they're safe, and making sure people pay the fare. If someone doesn't pay the fare, refuse to leave, and physically hits you, you call the authorities, and when they don't allow you to, you physically engage them. Bus driver was 100% right and should be reinstated with a promotion.

Edited by zaibatsu, 16 October 2012 - 10:20 AM.

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#341 Sharpshooter

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:24 AM

Nah, I won't follow you in your off topic discussion of spanking, trollbait, but I will discuss the incident here.. I'd love to see you here as the bus driver. You'd what, sit there and cry as she hit you, grabbed your throat, and knocked your communication device out of your hand when trying to use it? You believe bus driver should be a violent and unruly lady's piñata? That sure would make for some entertainment. :lol:


I've been in professional situations where I could have easily laid someone out on the floor, and didn't. I was trained not to, and I followed my training. In other instances, when there was a need for a physical escalation, I was obligated to use force, which I did. I didn't cry when I couldn't, I remained professional.....just as this bus driver should have. There were many 'outs' for him, and he didn't avail himself of any of them. Think more, laugh less.
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#342 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:53 AM

I've been in professional situations where I could have easily laid someone out on the floor, and didn't. I was trained not to, and I followed my training. In other instances, when there was a need for a physical escalation, I was obligated to use force, which I did. I didn't cry when I couldn't, I remained professional.....just as this bus driver should have. There were many 'outs' for him, and he didn't avail himself of any of them. Think more, laugh less.

Aside of leaving the bus, which he shouldn't do, and would have to go through the woman anyways, there were no further de-escalation (resolution was obviously out the window) tactics to use on someone who quickly moved to physical force, so physical force was entirely necessary. You may not have liked his insensitivity or what you call "professionalism" when he opened his mouth to her, but at that point it's irrelevant. She didn't pay the fare, she refused to remove herself from the bus, she physically hit the driver, denied him access to communication with supervisors/authorities, she (and it wouldn't matter if it was a she or he) had it coming, and I hope it hurt a lot.

Edited by zaibatsu, 16 October 2012 - 10:58 AM.

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#343 Sharpshooter

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:47 PM

Aside of leaving the bus, which he shouldn't do, and would have to go through the woman anyways, there were no further de-escalation (resolution was obviously out the window) tactics to use on someone who quickly moved to physical force, so physical force was entirely necessary. You may not have liked his insensitivity or what you call "professionalism" when he opened his mouth to her, but at that point it's irrelevant. She didn't pay the fare, she refused to remove herself from the bus, she physically hit the driver, denied him access to communication with supervisors/authorities, she (and it wouldn't matter if it was a she or he) had it coming, and I hope it hurt a lot.


I don't agree with your opinion assertion. He absolutely should have stopped the bus, instead of endangering the passengers while being distracted in a verbal engagement. He should of then radioed his dispatch and explain the situation, or left the bus to call in to his dispatch in order to let them know he was assaulted.

That would have been the professional way to handle and remedy this situation, without the escalation of violence.
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#344 Erik Karlsson

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:35 PM

I don't agree with your opinion assertion. He absolutely should have stopped the bus, instead of endangering the passengers while being distracted in a verbal engagement. He should of then radioed his dispatch and explain the situation, or left the bus to call in to his dispatch in order to let them know he was assaulted.

That would have been the professional way to handle and remedy this situation, without the escalation of violence.


I agree with this, but in some situations, (not this one) standing up for yourself is the only choice, or it could result in your death, especially in today's world.
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#345 Sharpshooter

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 02:06 PM

I agree with this, but in some situations, (not this one) standing up for yourself is the only choice, or it could result in your death, especially in today's world.


Well, then that would be a case where there were no 'outs'....which of course, wasn't the case for this driver.
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#346 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:55 PM

We need a rants section. An ungoverned place where we can get things off our chests without the risk of being banned. So many classic threads could be had...


Doesn't HF Boards have that?
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