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#151 Sharpshooter

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 01:43 PM

Yeah, I could've worded that a lot better. I'm not saying that I condone parents disciplining their kids in any way that they so choose. Excessive force isn't acceptable, but I don't believe the methods used on me were excessive or did me (or my siblings) any harm. That's not to say that I'll smack my own kids.

Thanks for the response. And I'm sorry to hear about your nephew.

I feel the exact same way. And yes, sorry to hear about your nephew, Sharp.


Thanks boys, but don't let that stop you from getting your licks in. You know it won't stop me. :P

This is a big issue, and I don't want my personal anecdote to sway you from arguing your point, which I vehemently disagree with.

So go on with yo bad selves. .....and I mean bad parenting selves. ::D
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#152 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 01:49 PM

I hope the bus driver doesn't lose his job but you're delusional if you think she's going to learn any "respect" from being assaulted. She's already appeared on several television outlets playing the victim card. Furthermore if you watch the video again after the uppercut occurs she says something along the lines of "My Ni**ger going to bash your brains out". I'm ashamed that she is even a member of the human species.


If that doesn't teach her to show a little respect next time, very few things will, if anything. It should work for most people however. Next time you go and blatantly disrespect someone, you're going to think how he or she is bigger than you, stronger than you and how you were clobbered last time you did such a thing. And maybe you will actually come to realize you were being a dick and do need to smarten up because you wouldn't want someone disrespecting you like how you did to the driver.

Edited by Tortorella's Rant, 13 October 2012 - 01:50 PM.

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#153 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 01:58 PM

Thanks boys, but don't let that stop you from getting your licks in. You know it won't stop me. :P

This is a big issue, and I don't want my personal anecdote to sway you from arguing your point, which I vehemently disagree with.

So go on with yo bad selves. .....and I mean bad parenting selves. ::D


Children Who Get Spanked Have Lower IQs


Jeanna Bryner
Date: 24 September 2009 Time: 05:13 PM ET


Spanking can get kids to behave in a hurry, but new research suggests it can do more harm than good to their noggins. The study, involving hundreds of U.S. children, showed the more a child was spanked the lower his or her IQ compared with others.
"All parents want smart children," said study researcher Murray Straus of the University of New Hampshire. "This research shows that avoiding spanking and correcting misbehavior in other ways can help that happen."

One might ask, however, whether children who are spanked tend to come from backgrounds in which education opportunities are less or inherited intelligence lower





Why you shouldn't spank your child

by Kristin Cantu on September 28, 2009

Posted ImageLast week, a Duke University study published in Child Development concluded that spanking has detrimental effects on the behavior and mental development of children. The researchers found that children who were spanked as 1-year-olds tended to behave more aggressively at age 2, and didn’t perform as well as other children on a test measuring thinking skills at age 3.
Here, Children’s Hospital Boston’s Jayne Singer, PhD, clinical director of the Child and Parent Programand a clinical psychologist for the Brazelton Touchpoints Center, weighs in on the spanking study and offers her professional views on the subject.
The results of the study make sense. Spanking a child does show the child that the parent is bigger and stronger and can take control of the child. But, it doesn’t show the child how to learn to develop control of themselves. Spanking may stop the child then and there, but there’s a cost emotionally and cognitively to a child, and over the long run, it doesn’t usually lead to the child learning not to repeat the behavior that resulted in the spanking in the first place. It can also lead to the child learning to behave because of fear, not because of respect.
I’d like to suggest that the real issue is how we think about discipline. If we move away from the idea of discipline as a punishment, we can think about discipline as teaching the child by using necessary limit setting as well as praising desired ways of being. Young children need to learn how to gain control of themselves and how to respect the limits of other people. Spanking may stop a behavior in the moment, but it isn’t how a child actually learns to control his or her own actions.
Infants and toddlers learn more from behavior that’s modeled for them than anything else. Spanking results in them being afraid—and that hitting is the way you handle conflict. It’s pretty scary for children to be spanked. Parents don’t need to use discipline as punishment. Instead, send a message to your child such as, “I love you and I can’t let you do that.” Even if this results in a time out and a tantrum, the child is learning more from the experience than if they are in physical pain or discomfort. Even the tantrum that results from being told, “no” is an opportunity for the child to learn how to get themselves back under control.
Children can learn best by mimicking their parents’ ability to control themselves, and parents can be models by using calm, firm and neutral discipline. To a child, spanking feels like the parents are out of control and the only reason for them to stop their behavior is that they might be harmed. This doesn’t help children think for themselves.
It’s difficult for young children to differentiate between an adult’s idea of what is right and what is wrong. Cognitively, toddlers don’t understand the difference. Young children also often learn about the world by testing the limits set upon them. This doesn’t mean that they are misbehaving even if they’ve been told many times before not to do something. It takes a long time for children to learn self-control, but it is one of our major goals for all children in early childhood. If given the chance to sit and think about their actions, they learn and become more socialized. Time outs should be used not as a punishment, but an opportunity to stop your child’s unwanted activity and to give them time to think.
Parents are under a lot of pressure from people around them to keep their child under control. I would love for whole communities to be supportive of parents so that parents don’t have to feel so judged for their child’s behavior that is often developmentally typical, and to join parents in the goal of wanting children to have good emotional experiences.
It takes a long time for a child to learn how to control themselves. We hope that by age 5 there is a greater ability to sense that people other than themselves have needs and that they can stop themselves from doing things that will hurt somebody, not because they are afraid that they will get hurt themselves if they do the “wrong thing”, but because they care about the well-being of other people. These are the foundations of self-esteem and empathy, which we all want children to develop. The skills we want them to have are what are modeled around them: We want them to have the ability to control themselves.
Much of my thinking has been influenced by working with T. Berry Brazelton, who wrote the book, Discipline the Brazelton Way. It’s based on the kinds of ideas such as thinking of discipline as teaching and not as punishment. This book brings home ideas that are kind toward both children and parents. In the end, we just want a child to be someone who is able to have healthy relationships, be in control and show empathy.

Really sorry to hear about your nephew mate .


Edited by The Ratiocinator, 13 October 2012 - 02:03 PM.

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#154 pimpcurtly

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 01:58 PM

Thanks boys, but don't let that stop you from getting your licks in. You know it won't stop me. :P

This is a big issue, and I don't want my personal anecdote to sway you from arguing your point, which I vehemently disagree with.

So go on with yo bad selves. .....and I mean bad parenting selves. ::D


I don't feel there is much point arguing with you. I really don't have any stats or numbers to back up my claim that kids are worse now. I can only go off what I see, and hearing what some of these 10 years old talk about this day and age, angers even a foul mouthed person such as myself. I had no idea what half the stuff they are talking about was when I was their age...let alone use such profanity carelessly in the presence of adults. And I certainly don't remember teenagers commiting suicide with such regularity the 15 years or so ago I was in high school. Doesn't mean it didn't happen though...I guess.
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#155 Sharpshooter

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 03:38 PM

I don't feel there is much point arguing with you. I really don't have any stats or numbers to back up my claim that kids are worse now. I can only go off what I see, and hearing what some of these 10 years old talk about this day and age, angers even a foul mouthed person such as myself. I had no idea what half the stuff they are talking about was when I was their age...let alone use such profanity carelessly in the presence of adults. And I certainly don't remember teenagers commiting suicide with such regularity the 15 years or so ago I was in high school. Doesn't mean it didn't happen though...I guess.


Here's some recent polling stats about how we as Canadians feel about spanking.


CBC Website Poll Spanking February 6-9 2012 with over 6,000 votes

Question Asked: Should spanking be allowed under Canadian Law?

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#156 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 04:32 PM

Coming from a household where I grew up with 2 younger brothers, I can tell you that in some cases that simply doesn't work. The kid just goes on to resent their parent even more if their privilege is taken away. You say "beaten into line" as if parents beat their kids to a pulp to get their message across. It should be rare, and a last resort if they won't listen to anything else. And there's a huge difference between a single slap to the bottom and physical abuse.

Then a different strategy should be used for children that doesn't work for. Any parent who has to resort to violence or the threat of violence to control their children has failed at raising them to tell right from wrong. It might temporarily deter bad behaviour, but it promotes violence and teaches the children to respond to fear instead of reasoning. I say "beaten into line" because it's apt to describe any degree of violence towards children, from a spank to something even more serious.

Edited by VICanucksfan5551, 13 October 2012 - 04:33 PM.

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#157 Captain Aerosex

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 05:52 PM

Spanking to me isn't hitting. You're acting like a little spank on the butt is going Pronger on a kid. I got spanked a few times, learned the consequences. I wasn't a tiny baby, I was a kid. I don't condone severe violence, but there's got to be a medium. Kids don't turn out right from being abused, that's for sure. But you look at kids now not being punished at all and the results aren't kosher.
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#158 DarthNinja

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 05:57 PM

Study: Young Children Who Are Spanked Are Happier and More Successful as Teenagers

By Thaddeus M. Baklinski

GRAND RAPIDS, Michigan, January 5, 2010 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A US-based study suggests that spanking isn't harmful for children and, in fact, states that children who had been physically disciplined when they were young, between the ages of 2 and 6, grew up to be happier and more successful, performed better at school as teenagers and were more likely to do volunteer work and to want to go to university, than those who had never been spanked.

The study, conducted under the auspices of the Portraits of American Life Study (PALS) {http://pals.nd.edu/} by Dr. Marjorie Gunnoe, professor of Psychology at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan, found there was a lack of evidence to prove that spanking harmed children, and that spanking used judiciously as the normal consequence for bad behavior is beneficial to children.

"The claims that are made for not spanking children fail to hold up. They are not consistent with the data," Gunnoe said.

"I think of spanking as a dangerous tool, but there are times when there is a job big enough for a dangerous tool - you just don't use it for all your jobs," she added.

Professor Gunnoe interviewed 2,600 teenagers about being spanked. She found that when participants' answers were compared with their behavior, such as academic success, optimism about the future, antisocial behavior, violence and bouts of depression, those who had been physically disciplined only between the ages of two and six performed best on all the positive measures.

Those who had been spanked between seven and eleven exhibited more negative behavior but were still more likely to be academically successful.

In cases where physical discipline continued beyond the age of 12, or in those who had never received corporal punishment, the children were found to perform more poorly in the indicators that were taken into consideration. Dr. Gunnoe found that almost a quarter of the teens in the study reported they were never spanked.

The American College of Pediatricians (ACP) states that disciplinary spanking by parents can be effective when properly used. "It is clear that parents should not solely rely upon disciplinary spanking to accomplish control of their child's behavior," says the organization's position statement. "Evidence suggests that it can be a useful and necessary part of a successful disciplinary plan."

According to the ACP, effective discipline has three key components: a loving, supportive relationship between parent and child; use of positive reinforcement when children behave well; and, use of punishment when children misbehave.

Many parents who are fearful of using spanking as punishment claim that spanking teaches physically aggressive behavior which the child will imitate.

Aric Sigman, a psychologist and author of "The Spoilt Generation: Why Restoring Authority will Make our Children and Society Happier," commented on the results of Professor Gunnoe's research.

"The idea that smacking and violence are on a continuum is a bizarre and fetishised view of what punishment is for most parents," he told the UK Daily Mail.

"If it's done judiciously by a parent who is normally affectionate and sensitive to their child, our society should not be up in arms about that. Parents should be taught to distinguish this from a punch in the face."

http://www.lifesiten...10/jan/10010507

American College of Pediatricians: “It’s Okay for Parents to Spank”; Suggests Guidelines

By John-Henry Westen

WASHINGTON, DC, December 3, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The American College of Pediatricians (ACP), a national medical association of licensed physicians and healthcare professionals who specialize in the care of infants, children, and adolescents, has issued a position statement on the use of spanking by parents, just as the Massachusetts legislature takes up a bill to ban that form of parental discipline.

Despite scientific evidence suggesting that reasonable corporal punishment by parents is beneficial to children, the United Nations has pushed nations to ban parents from using spanking as a form of discipline. That interference with parental rights is one of the issues that has caused much consternation over the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

ACP carefully reviewed the available research on corporal punishment and concludes, in its position statement on the subject, that disciplinary spanking by parents can be effective when properly used. "It is clear that parents should not solely rely upon disciplinary spanking to accomplish control of their child’s behavior," says the just-released position statement. "Evidence suggests that it can be a useful and necessary part of a successful disciplinary plan."

Den Trumbull, MD, FCP, principal author of the statement explained, "When a child defies a parent’s instruction, spanking is one of a few options parents can consider to correct the misbehavior." Trumbull added: "Spanking is most appropriate with children 2 to 6 years old, and when milder types of correction have failed."

ACP has created a one page handout for parents titled "Guidelines for Parental Use of Disciplinary Spanking". The guidelines advise that spanking "should be used only when the child receives at least as much encouragement and praise for good behavior as correction for problem behavior." It also says that "milder forms of discipline, such as verbal correction, extinction, logical and natural consequences, and time-out should be used initially, followed by spanking when noncompliance persists."

"Spanking should not be administered on impulse or when a parent is out of control," warns the document noting that "a spanking should always be motivated by love, for the purpose of teaching and correcting, and not for revenge or retaliation."

The guidelines also detail ages when spanking is appropriate. "Spanking is inappropriate before 15 months of age and is usually not necessary until after 18 months. It should be less necessary after 6 years and rarely, if ever, used after 10 years of age," it says. See the guidelines here: http://www.acpeds.or...r_Parental_U…

In addition to its policy statement, ACP has published an extensive review of the scientific literature on the subject of corporal punishment and its use in discipline which is available online here:
http://www.acpeds.or...l.pdf?id=90&...
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#159 Sharpshooter

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:47 PM

Study: Young Children Who Are Spanked Are Happier and More Successful as Teenagers

By Thaddeus M. Baklinski

GRAND RAPIDS, Michigan, January 5, 2010 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A US-based study suggests that spanking isn't harmful for children and, in fact, states that children who had been physically disciplined when they were young, between the ages of 2 and 6, grew up to be happier and more successful, performed better at school as teenagers and were more likely to do volunteer work and to want to go to university, than those who had never been spanked.

The study, conducted under the auspices of the Portraits of American Life Study (PALS) {http://pals.nd.edu/} by Dr. Marjorie Gunnoe, professor of Psychology at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan, found there was a lack of evidence to prove that spanking harmed children, and that spanking used judiciously as the normal consequence for bad behavior is beneficial to children.

"The claims that are made for not spanking children fail to hold up. They are not consistent with the data," Gunnoe said.

"I think of spanking as a dangerous tool, but there are times when there is a job big enough for a dangerous tool - you just don't use it for all your jobs," she added.

Professor Gunnoe interviewed 2,600 teenagers about being spanked. She found that when participants' answers were compared with their behavior, such as academic success, optimism about the future, antisocial behavior, violence and bouts of depression, those who had been physically disciplined only between the ages of two and six performed best on all the positive measures.

Those who had been spanked between seven and eleven exhibited more negative behavior but were still more likely to be academically successful.

In cases where physical discipline continued beyond the age of 12, or in those who had never received corporal punishment, the children were found to perform more poorly in the indicators that were taken into consideration. Dr. Gunnoe found that almost a quarter of the teens in the study reported they were never spanked.

The American College of Pediatricians (ACP) states that disciplinary spanking by parents can be effective when properly used. "It is clear that parents should not solely rely upon disciplinary spanking to accomplish control of their child's behavior," says the organization's position statement. "Evidence suggests that it can be a useful and necessary part of a successful disciplinary plan."

According to the ACP, effective discipline has three key components: a loving, supportive relationship between parent and child; use of positive reinforcement when children behave well; and, use of punishment when children misbehave.

Many parents who are fearful of using spanking as punishment claim that spanking teaches physically aggressive behavior which the child will imitate.

Aric Sigman, a psychologist and author of "The Spoilt Generation: Why Restoring Authority will Make our Children and Society Happier," commented on the results of Professor Gunnoe's research.

"The idea that smacking and violence are on a continuum is a bizarre and fetishised view of what punishment is for most parents," he told the UK Daily Mail.

"If it's done judiciously by a parent who is normally affectionate and sensitive to their child, our society should not be up in arms about that. Parents should be taught to distinguish this from a punch in the face."

http://www.lifesiten...10/jan/10010507

American College of Pediatricians: “It’s Okay for Parents to Spank”; Suggests Guidelines

By John-Henry Westen

WASHINGTON, DC, December 3, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The American College of Pediatricians (ACP), a national medical association of licensed physicians and healthcare professionals who specialize in the care of infants, children, and adolescents, has issued a position statement on the use of spanking by parents, just as the Massachusetts legislature takes up a bill to ban that form of parental discipline.

Despite scientific evidence suggesting that reasonable corporal punishment by parents is beneficial to children, the United Nations has pushed nations to ban parents from using spanking as a form of discipline. That interference with parental rights is one of the issues that has caused much consternation over the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

ACP carefully reviewed the available research on corporal punishment and concludes, in its position statement on the subject, that disciplinary spanking by parents can be effective when properly used. "It is clear that parents should not solely rely upon disciplinary spanking to accomplish control of their child’s behavior," says the just-released position statement. "Evidence suggests that it can be a useful and necessary part of a successful disciplinary plan."

Den Trumbull, MD, FCP, principal author of the statement explained, "When a child defies a parent’s instruction, spanking is one of a few options parents can consider to correct the misbehavior." Trumbull added: "Spanking is most appropriate with children 2 to 6 years old, and when milder types of correction have failed."

ACP has created a one page handout for parents titled "Guidelines for Parental Use of Disciplinary Spanking". The guidelines advise that spanking "should be used only when the child receives at least as much encouragement and praise for good behavior as correction for problem behavior." It also says that "milder forms of discipline, such as verbal correction, extinction, logical and natural consequences, and time-out should be used initially, followed by spanking when noncompliance persists."

"Spanking should not be administered on impulse or when a parent is out of control," warns the document noting that "a spanking should always be motivated by love, for the purpose of teaching and correcting, and not for revenge or retaliation."

The guidelines also detail ages when spanking is appropriate. "Spanking is inappropriate before 15 months of age and is usually not necessary until after 18 months. It should be less necessary after 6 years and rarely, if ever, used after 10 years of age," it says. See the guidelines here: http://www.acpeds.or...ental_U…

In addition to its policy statement, ACP has published an extensive review of the scientific literature on the subject of corporal punishment and its use in discipline which is available online here:
http://www.acpeds.or...l.pdf?id=90&...


Canadian Medical Association Journal


Positive parenting, not physical punishment
John Fletcher, MB BChir MPH, Editor-in-Chief


Is spanking wrong? Clearly, hitting anyone in anger or when losing an argument is bad behaviour. To do this to children sets a bad example and may only teach them that violence is a means to getting their own way. But what about a slap as the ultimate sanction and a means of enforcing boundaries and discipline? It’s an obvious question and one in which parents will be interested. Are those who use physical punishment bad parents?

If they are, then they are in the company of roughly 90% of my parents’ generation,1 including 70% of family doctors and 60% of pediatricians, who thought spanking acceptable in some circumstances.2 The proportion of parents who spank toddlers now is still high but closer to 50%.3 Many parents will say that a good smack taught them right and wrong and that there is a role for it in teaching good behaviour.

Opponents of physical punishment will call upon a child’s right to be protected from physical assault. Some argue that physical punishment is inescapably a form of violence, that spanking should be classified as a crime in itself and that parents should be prosecuted for punishing in this way.

So heated is this debate, and so long-running, that the question of whether spanking is morally “right or wrong” is probably intractable. A more promising line of enquiry, however, is whether the physical punishment of children is effective.

In a related article, Durrant and Ensom4 summarize research done over the last 20 years suggesting that the physical punishment of children is associated with increased levels of child aggression and is no better at eliciting compliance than other methods. Furthermore, physical punishment during childhood is associated with behavioural problems in adult life, including depression, unhappiness, anxiety, feelings of hopelessness, use of drugs and alcohol, and general psychological maladjustment. Their article may appear slanted toward a particular view, but that is likely because more evidence exists to support this view than to suggest that physical punishment is beneficial.

Supporters of spanking may argue that it is a question of degree and that spanking is beneficial unless practised to excess. This is possible, but it has always struck me that people using this line of reasoning in the face of clear evidence of harm are really trying to justify their actions, rather than face the possibility that they might be wrong.

As there is little evidence of effectiveness and growing evidence of harm, should spanking be criminalized and parents brought to the attention of the courts for using this form of discipline? There has already been a lively debate on this subject on our website in response to Durrant and Ensom’s article. But most parents, including those who spank, love their children and are trying to be good parents. If the aim is to improve parenting, then calling the police is the wrong approach.

Parents need to be re-educated as to how to discipline their children. Simply discouraging physical punishment is not enough. Without alternatives, parents brought up with spanking may simply substitute shouting or some other form of punishment. How do you teach a whole generation of parents better ways to discipline their children?

Parenting programs have been successful at teaching positive parenting techniques and improving behaviour of children.5 Given that a large proportion of the population needs to be taught, education will need to reach beyond just families with overt problems. These programs should be offered widely, perhaps at the same time as antenatal classes and at school entry, times when parents are experiencing change and are receptive to education.

It’s not just parents who need to change, though. The law needs to be changed too. Although it is not necessary to make spanking a crime to encourage alternative approaches to parenting, section 43 of the Criminal Code of Canada6 sends the wrong message, stating, “… a parent is justified in using force by way of correction … if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.” Law enforcement officers already have discretion to decide when assault is too trivial to merit the full force of the law, and this applies to children as well as adults. But surely any bias should be toward protecting children, who are the most vulnerable. To have a specific code excusing parents is to suggest that assault by a parent is a normal and accepted part of bringing up children. It is not. While section 43 stands, it is a constant excuse for parents to cling to an ineffective method of child discipline when better approaches are available. It is time for Canada to remove this anachronistic excuse for poor parenting from the statute book.
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#160 Canucksbiggestfan

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:53 PM

^ I don't care anymore. We are obviously not going to see eye to eye and none of us is going to change one another's mind.

So can we just drop this argument already?
No one is going to "win" in the end.
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#161 DarthNinja

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:55 PM

Canadian Medical Association Journal


Positive parenting, not physical punishment
John Fletcher, MB BChir MPH, Editor-in-Chief


Is spanking wrong? Clearly, hitting anyone in anger or when losing an argument is bad behaviour. To do this to children sets a bad example and may only teach them that violence is a means to getting their own way. But what about a slap as the ultimate sanction and a means of enforcing boundaries and discipline? It’s an obvious question and one in which parents will be interested. Are those who use physical punishment bad parents?

If they are, then they are in the company of roughly 90% of my parents’ generation,1 including 70% of family doctors and 60% of pediatricians, who thought spanking acceptable in some circumstances.2 The proportion of parents who spank toddlers now is still high but closer to 50%.3 Many parents will say that a good smack taught them right and wrong and that there is a role for it in teaching good behaviour.

Opponents of physical punishment will call upon a child’s right to be protected from physical assault. Some argue that physical punishment is inescapably a form of violence, that spanking should be classified as a crime in itself and that parents should be prosecuted for punishing in this way.

So heated is this debate, and so long-running, that the question of whether spanking is morally “right or wrong” is probably intractable. A more promising line of enquiry, however, is whether the physical punishment of children is effective.

In a related article, Durrant and Ensom4 summarize research done over the last 20 years suggesting that the physical punishment of children is associated with increased levels of child aggression and is no better at eliciting compliance than other methods. Furthermore, physical punishment during childhood is associated with behavioural problems in adult life, including depression, unhappiness, anxiety, feelings of hopelessness, use of drugs and alcohol, and general psychological maladjustment. Their article may appear slanted toward a particular view, but that is likely because more evidence exists to support this view than to suggest that physical punishment is beneficial.

Supporters of spanking may argue that it is a question of degree and that spanking is beneficial unless practised to excess. This is possible, but it has always struck me that people using this line of reasoning in the face of clear evidence of harm are really trying to justify their actions, rather than face the possibility that they might be wrong.

As there is little evidence of effectiveness and growing evidence of harm, should spanking be criminalized and parents brought to the attention of the courts for using this form of discipline? There has already been a lively debate on this subject on our website in response to Durrant and Ensom’s article. But most parents, including those who spank, love their children and are trying to be good parents. If the aim is to improve parenting, then calling the police is the wrong approach.

Parents need to be re-educated as to how to discipline their children. Simply discouraging physical punishment is not enough. Without alternatives, parents brought up with spanking may simply substitute shouting or some other form of punishment. How do you teach a whole generation of parents better ways to discipline their children?

Parenting programs have been successful at teaching positive parenting techniques and improving behaviour of children.5 Given that a large proportion of the population needs to be taught, education will need to reach beyond just families with overt problems. These programs should be offered widely, perhaps at the same time as antenatal classes and at school entry, times when parents are experiencing change and are receptive to education.

It’s not just parents who need to change, though. The law needs to be changed too. Although it is not necessary to make spanking a crime to encourage alternative approaches to parenting, section 43 of the Criminal Code of Canada6 sends the wrong message, stating, “… a parent is justified in using force by way of correction … if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.” Law enforcement officers already have discretion to decide when assault is too trivial to merit the full force of the law, and this applies to children as well as adults. But surely any bias should be toward protecting children, who are the most vulnerable. To have a specific code excusing parents is to suggest that assault by a parent is a normal and accepted part of bringing up children. It is not. While section 43 stands, it is a constant excuse for parents to cling to an ineffective method of child discipline when better approaches are available. It is time for Canada to remove this anachronistic excuse for poor parenting from the statute book.


The point precisely is that there is no scientific consensus on the issue.



There is No Sound Scientific Evidence to Support Anti-Spanking Bans
Robert E. Larzelere, Ph.D.
Dept. of Human Development and Family Science
233 HES Bldg.
Oklahoma State University
Stillwater, OK 74078 USA
Robert.Larzelere@okstate.edu
April 2007



This is the most current and up-to-date review of the scientific studies on child outcomes of corporal punishment. This is the only scientific review that

a. compares the child outcomes of corporal punishment vs. alternative disciplinary tactics that parents could use instead,

b. distinguishes among the outcomes of four types of corporal punishment (overly severe, predominant usage, customary spanking, and conditional spanking [which is optimal]),

or

c. corrects for pre-existing differences in outcomes, by comparing outcomes of corporal punishment with alternative disciplinary tactics.

The outcomes of corporal punishment compared unfavorably with alternatives only when used too severely or as the primary disciplinary method. The optimal usage, called conditional spanking, led to better child outcomes than 10 of 13 disciplinary tactics, generally with 2- to 6-year-old children. This shows that the optimal use of nonabusive spanking is to enforce milder disciplinary tactics when children are defiant.

Full paper here


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#162 Chip Kelly

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:05 PM

That was seriously ghetto. :lol:
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#163 DarthNinja

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:26 PM

Oh, I plan on doing a little more than 'chiming' my dear fellow.

It's not my personal belief that spanking a child is physical assault. Spanking a child where the child is humiliated or 'embarrassed' is illegal. Hitting a child out of frustration or anger is illegal. Spanking a child with a wooden spoon or a shoe, is illegal, and is an offence that should be reported, so that the parents can have a little corrective intervention of their own, because they're too stupid to understand that what they're in fact doing is abusing their children.

That's not just my opinion.

That's the law of the land. If you want to take your frustrations out on something physically, buy a punching bag, don't hit your kids, cause that's assault.

Numerous studies have shown that real physical, emotional and psychological harm is done to children who are physically struck by
their parent.

And the 'UN Committee on the Rights of a Child' issued this Comment:


The Committee’s General Comment on Corporal Punishment

At its 42nd session, held in Geneva from15 May to 2 June 2006, the Committee on the Rights of the Child adopted a new General Comment on the issue of corporal punishment. This is the first General Comment concerning the protection of children from all forms of violence which the Committee resolved to publish following its Days of General Discussion on violence against children in 2000 and 2001. It reflects the Committee’s commitment to address the problem of corporal punishment, which dates back to the early days of monitoring the implementation of the Convention on the Rights of the Child and which has consistently informed the Committee’s recommendations to States parties over the years.

General Comment No.8 (2006) on “The right to protection from corporal punishment and other cruel or degrading forms of punishment (arts. 19; 28, para. 2; and 37, inter alia)” aims “to highlight the obligation of all States parties to move quickly to prohibit and eliminate all corporal punishment and all other cruel or degrading forms of punishment of children and to outline the legislative and other awareness-raising and educational measures that States must take” (para 2). As well as being an obligation of States parties under the Convention on the Rights of the Child, addressing and eliminating corporal punishment of children is “a key strategy for reducing and preventing all forms of violence in societies” (para 3).

Definitions

The Committee defines corporal punishment in paragraph 11 of the General Comment:

“The Committee defines ‘corporal’ or ‘physical’ punishment as any punishment in which physical force is used and intended to cause some degree of pain or discomfort, however light. Most involves hitting (‘smacking’, ‘slapping’, ‘spanking’) children, with the hand or with an implement – whip, stick, belt, shoe, wooden spoon, etc. But it can also involve, for example, kicking, shaking or throwing children, scratching, pinching, burning, scalding or forced ingestion (for example, washing children’s mouths out with soap or forcing them to swallow hot spices). In the view of the Committee, corporal punishment is invariably degrading. In addition, there are other non-physical forms of punishment which are also cruel and degrading and thus incompatible with the Convention. These include, for example, punishment which belittles, humiliates, denigrates, scapegoats, threatens, scares or ridicules the child.”


Children are subjected to such punishment in all settings and must be addressed and eliminated in all settings, including within the home and family.

The Committee distinguishes between violence and humiliation as forms of punishment, which it rejects, and discipline of children in the form of “necessary guidance and direction”, which is essential for healthy growth of children. The Committee also differentiates between punitive physical actions against children and physical interventions aimed at protecting children from harm.

Human rights standards

The foundations of the human rights obligation to prohibit and eliminate all corporal punishment and all other degrading forms of punishment lie in the rights of every person to respect for his/her dignity and physical integrity and to equal protection under the law. The Committee traces this back to the original International Bill of Human Rights – “The dignity of each and every individual is the fundamental guiding principle of international human rights law” (para 16) – and shows how the Convention on the Rights of the Child builds on these principles. Quoting article 19 of the Convention, which requires States to protect children “from all forms of physical or mental violence”, the Committee states (para 18):

“... There is no ambiguity: ‘all forms of physical or mental violence’ does not leave room for any level of legalized violence against children. Corporal punishment and other cruel or degrading forms of punishment are forms of violence and the State must take all appropriate legislative, administrative, social and educational measures to eliminate them.”


The fact that article 19 and article 28 – on school discipline – do not specifically refer to corporal punishment does not in any way undermine the obligation to prohibit and eliminate it (paras 20, 21 and 22):

“... the Convention, like all human rights instruments, must be regarded as a living instrument, whose interpretation develops over time. In the 17 years since the Convention was adopted, the prevalence of corporal punishment of children in their homes, schools and other institutions has become more visible, through the reporting process under the Convention and through research and advocacy by, among others, national human rights institutions and non-governmental organizations (NGOs).


“Once visible, it is clear that the practice directly conflicts with the equal and inalienable rights of children to respect for their human dignity and physical integrity. The distinct nature of children, their initial dependent and developmental state, their unique human potential as well as their vulnerability, all demand the need for more, rather than less, legal and other protection from all forms of violence.


“The Committee emphasizes that eliminating violent and humiliating punishment of children, through law reform and other necessary measures, is n immediate and unqualified obligation of States parties....”


The Committee goes on to note that this approach is mirrored in the work of other international human rights treaty monitoring bodies and of regional human rights mechanisms, including the European Court of Human Rights, the Inter-American Court of Human Rights, and the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights.

Common arguments by governments against prohibition of all corporal punishment are also addressed by the Committee. For example, in response to the contention that a certain degree of “reasonable” or “moderate” corporal punishment is in the “best interests” of the child, the Committee states that “interpretation of a child’s best interests must be consistent with the whole Convention, including the obligation to protect children from all forms of violence and the requirement to give due weight to the child’s views; it cannot be used to justify practices, including corporal punishment and other forms of cruel or degrading punishment, which conflict with the child’s human dignity and right to physical integrity” (para 26). And there is no conflict between realising children’s rights and the importance of the family unit, which the Convention fully upholds.

The Committee recognises that some justify the use of corporal punishment through religious faith teachings and texts but again notes that “practice of a religion or belief must be consistent with respect for others’ human dignity and physical integrity” and that “[f]reedom to practice one’s religion or belief may be legitimately limited in order to protect the fundamental rights and freedoms of others” (para 29).

http://www.endcorpor...rc_session.html
http://www2.ohchr.or....C.GC.13_en.pdf



It's barbaric and absolutely uncivilized to hit your child, and cowardly to then use placeholder words like 'discipline' and 'spanking'. Call it what it is. It's hitting. And it's unwanted by the child, which makes it unwanted hitting, which in other words is physical assault. I don't know why you just don't call it what it is.

It's obvious parents are ill-equipped to be parents if hitting their children is what they resort to if they aren't able to correct unwanted behaviour by other means. Perhaps they need a little more education about parenting. And trust me, those who say "they're fine" and "turned out well" didn't, if they're also hitting their kids now too. It's called perpetuating a cycle of violence, and the same cycle is learned behaviour, for things like spousal abuse, or other abuse that kids learn from their parents actions. You really want to teach your kids that it's ok to correct children by hitting them? Get a clue along with some early childhood development education.


The problem with the UN is their blatant, psychotic hypocrisy where killing 500,000 or more Iraqi children through their own sanctions, which they claim was to 'punish' Saddam was 'worth the price' yet a parent spanking a child is 'abusive'. Not to mention the numerous scandals that UNICEF has been mired in, which usually tend to be swiftly covered-up or swept under the rug.

I don't believe the UN has children's or humanity's best interests in mind. The UN is there to serve the agenda of its elitist creators and controllers.
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#164 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:55 PM

I had to scroll up to make sure I was in the right thread.
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#165 gurn

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:41 PM

But it is still ok if an adult spanks an adult, right?
Just making sure.
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#166 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 12:33 AM

Study: Young Children Who Are Spanked Are Happier and More Successful as Teenagers

By Thaddeus M. Baklinski

GRAND RAPIDS, Michigan, January 5, 2010 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A US-based study suggests that spanking isn't harmful for children and, in fact, states that children who had been physically disciplined when they were young, between the ages of 2 and 6, grew up to be happier and more successful, performed better at school as teenagers and were more likely to do volunteer work and to want to go to university, than those who had never been spanked.

The study, conducted under the auspices of the Portraits of American Life Study (PALS) {http://pals.nd.edu/} by Dr. Marjorie Gunnoe, professor of Psychology at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan, found there was a lack of evidence to prove that spanking harmed children, and that spanking used judiciously as the normal consequence for bad behavior is beneficial to children.

"The claims that are made for not spanking children fail to hold up. They are not consistent with the data," Gunnoe said.

"I think of spanking as a dangerous tool, but there are times when there is a job big enough for a dangerous tool - you just don't use it for all your jobs," she added.

Professor Gunnoe interviewed 2,600 teenagers about being spanked. She found that when participants' answers were compared with their behavior, such as academic success, optimism about the future, antisocial behavior, violence and bouts of depression, those who had been physically disciplined only between the ages of two and six performed best on all the positive measures.

Those who had been spanked between seven and eleven exhibited more negative behavior but were still more likely to be academically successful.

In cases where physical discipline continued beyond the age of 12, or in those who had never received corporal punishment, the children were found to perform more poorly in the indicators that were taken into consideration. Dr. Gunnoe found that almost a quarter of the teens in the study reported they were never spanked.

The American College of Pediatricians (ACP) states that disciplinary spanking by parents can be effective when properly used. "It is clear that parents should not solely rely upon disciplinary spanking to accomplish control of their child's behavior," says the organization's position statement. "Evidence suggests that it can be a useful and necessary part of a successful disciplinary plan."

According to the ACP, effective discipline has three key components: a loving, supportive relationship between parent and child; use of positive reinforcement when children behave well; and, use of punishment when children misbehave.

Many parents who are fearful of using spanking as punishment claim that spanking teaches physically aggressive behavior which the child will imitate.

Aric Sigman, a psychologist and author of "The Spoilt Generation: Why Restoring Authority will Make our Children and Society Happier," commented on the results of Professor Gunnoe's research.

"The idea that smacking and violence are on a continuum is a bizarre and fetishised view of what punishment is for most parents," he told the UK Daily Mail.

"If it's done judiciously by a parent who is normally affectionate and sensitive to their child, our society should not be up in arms about that. Parents should be taught to distinguish this from a punch in the face."

http://www.lifesiten...10/jan/10010507

American College of Pediatricians: “It’s Okay for Parents to Spank”; Suggests Guidelines

By John-Henry Westen

WASHINGTON, DC, December 3, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The American College of Pediatricians (ACP), a national medical association of licensed physicians and healthcare professionals who specialize in the care of infants, children, and adolescents, has issued a position statement on the use of spanking by parents, just as the Massachusetts legislature takes up a bill to ban that form of parental discipline.

Despite scientific evidence suggesting that reasonable corporal punishment by parents is beneficial to children, the United Nations has pushed nations to ban parents from using spanking as a form of discipline. That interference with parental rights is one of the issues that has caused much consternation over the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

ACP carefully reviewed the available research on corporal punishment and concludes, in its position statement on the subject, that disciplinary spanking by parents can be effective when properly used. "It is clear that parents should not solely rely upon disciplinary spanking to accomplish control of their child’s behavior," says the just-released position statement. "Evidence suggests that it can be a useful and necessary part of a successful disciplinary plan."

Den Trumbull, MD, FCP, principal author of the statement explained, "When a child defies a parent’s instruction, spanking is one of a few options parents can consider to correct the misbehavior." Trumbull added: "Spanking is most appropriate with children 2 to 6 years old, and when milder types of correction have failed."

ACP has created a one page handout for parents titled "Guidelines for Parental Use of Disciplinary Spanking". The guidelines advise that spanking "should be used only when the child receives at least as much encouragement and praise for good behavior as correction for problem behavior." It also says that "milder forms of discipline, such as verbal correction, extinction, logical and natural consequences, and time-out should be used initially, followed by spanking when noncompliance persists."

"Spanking should not be administered on impulse or when a parent is out of control," warns the document noting that "a spanking should always be motivated by love, for the purpose of teaching and correcting, and not for revenge or retaliation."

The guidelines also detail ages when spanking is appropriate. "Spanking is inappropriate before 15 months of age and is usually not necessary until after 18 months. It should be less necessary after 6 years and rarely, if ever, used after 10 years of age," it says. See the guidelines here: http://www.acpeds.or...ental_U…

In addition to its policy statement, ACP has published an extensive review of the scientific literature on the subject of corporal punishment and its use in discipline which is available online here:
http://www.acpeds.or...l.pdf?id=90&...


So are you advocating that acts of violence towards your child are an acceptable form of behavioural conditioning ?

make no mistake , spanking a child is an act of violence , no matter how you dress it up .

and what does that act of violence teach that child ?

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 14 October 2012 - 12:35 AM.

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#167 G.K. Chesterton

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 12:44 AM

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#168 Pouria

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 12:48 AM

Children Who Get Spanked Have Lower IQs


Jeanna Bryner
Date: 24 September 2009 Time: 05:13 PM ET


Spanking can get kids to behave in a hurry, but new research suggests it can do more harm than good to their noggins. The study, involving hundreds of U.S. children, showed the more a child was spanked the lower his or her IQ compared with others.
"All parents want smart children," said study researcher Murray Straus of the University of New Hampshire. "This research shows that avoiding spanking and correcting misbehavior in other ways can help that happen."

One might ask, however, whether children who are spanked tend to come from backgrounds in which education opportunities are less or inherited intelligence lower





Why you shouldn't spank your child

by Kristin Cantu on September 28, 2009

Posted ImageLast week, a Duke University study published in Child Development concluded that spanking has detrimental effects on the behavior and mental development of children. The researchers found that children who were spanked as 1-year-olds tended to behave more aggressively at age 2, and didn’t perform as well as other children on a test measuring thinking skills at age 3.
Here, Children’s Hospital Boston’s Jayne Singer, PhD, clinical director of the Child and Parent Programand a clinical psychologist for the Brazelton Touchpoints Center, weighs in on the spanking study and offers her professional views on the subject.
The results of the study make sense. Spanking a child does show the child that the parent is bigger and stronger and can take control of the child. But, it doesn’t show the child how to learn to develop control of themselves. Spanking may stop the child then and there, but there’s a cost emotionally and cognitively to a child, and over the long run, it doesn’t usually lead to the child learning not to repeat the behavior that resulted in the spanking in the first place. It can also lead to the child learning to behave because of fear, not because of respect.
I’d like to suggest that the real issue is how we think about discipline. If we move away from the idea of discipline as a punishment, we can think about discipline as teaching the child by using necessary limit setting as well as praising desired ways of being. Young children need to learn how to gain control of themselves and how to respect the limits of other people. Spanking may stop a behavior in the moment, but it isn’t how a child actually learns to control his or her own actions.
Infants and toddlers learn more from behavior that’s modeled for them than anything else. Spanking results in them being afraid—and that hitting is the way you handle conflict. It’s pretty scary for children to be spanked. Parents don’t need to use discipline as punishment. Instead, send a message to your child such as, “I love you and I can’t let you do that.” Even if this results in a time out and a tantrum, the child is learning more from the experience than if they are in physical pain or discomfort. Even the tantrum that results from being told, “no” is an opportunity for the child to learn how to get themselves back under control.
Children can learn best by mimicking their parents’ ability to control themselves, and parents can be models by using calm, firm and neutral discipline. To a child, spanking feels like the parents are out of control and the only reason for them to stop their behavior is that they might be harmed. This doesn’t help children think for themselves.
It’s difficult for young children to differentiate between an adult’s idea of what is right and what is wrong. Cognitively, toddlers don’t understand the difference. Young children also often learn about the world by testing the limits set upon them. This doesn’t mean that they are misbehaving even if they’ve been told many times before not to do something. It takes a long time for children to learn self-control, but it is one of our major goals for all children in early childhood. If given the chance to sit and think about their actions, they learn and become more socialized. Time outs should be used not as a punishment, but an opportunity to stop your child’s unwanted activity and to give them time to think.
Parents are under a lot of pressure from people around them to keep their child under control. I would love for whole communities to be supportive of parents so that parents don’t have to feel so judged for their child’s behavior that is often developmentally typical, and to join parents in the goal of wanting children to have good emotional experiences.
It takes a long time for a child to learn how to control themselves. We hope that by age 5 there is a greater ability to sense that people other than themselves have needs and that they can stop themselves from doing things that will hurt somebody, not because they are afraid that they will get hurt themselves if they do the “wrong thing”, but because they care about the well-being of other people. These are the foundations of self-esteem and empathy, which we all want children to develop. The skills we want them to have are what are modeled around them: We want them to have the ability to control themselves.
Much of my thinking has been influenced by working with T. Berry Brazelton, who wrote the book, Discipline the Brazelton Way. It’s based on the kinds of ideas such as thinking of discipline as teaching and not as punishment. This book brings home ideas that are kind toward both children and parents. In the end, we just want a child to be someone who is able to have healthy relationships, be in control and show empathy.

Really sorry to hear about your nephew mate .



Don't a lot of Asian and Indian parents beat their children? Yet they produce some of the smartest kids in the world.
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#169 Pouria

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 12:57 AM

Then a different strategy should be used for children that doesn't work for. Any parent who has to resort to violence or the threat of violence to control their children has failed at raising them to tell right from wrong. It might temporarily deter bad behaviour, but it promotes violence and teaches the children to respond to fear instead of reasoning. I say "beaten into line" because it's apt to describe any degree of violence towards children, from a spank to something even more serious.


I don't know about that. I was spanked and so was many of my friends and they all turned into fine citizens of society. Yet I've seen little kids who were never punished or touched turn into brats and little punks that were spoiled. The results speak for themselves and if spanking is the only method to raise the child right, then so be it. I don't mean extreme violence on kids but a balanced reward and punishment system that guides them to what the wrong and right actions are. Kids today are so spoiled and lack manners and most of them probably never had a spanking in their life but I guess that is considered an example of good parenting nowadays.
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#170 DarthNinja

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:00 AM

So are you advocating that acts of violence towards your child are an acceptable form of behavioural conditioning ?

make no mistake , spanking a child is an act of violence , no matter how you dress it up .

and what does that act of violence teach that child ?


Oh please! :rolleyes:
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#171 Pouria

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:02 AM

So are you advocating that acts of violence towards your child are an acceptable form of behavioural conditioning ?

make no mistake , spanking a child is an act of violence , no matter how you dress it up .

and what does that act of violence teach that child ?


When that child is already exposed to an excessive dose of violent movies and games, the spanking and "act of violence" probably would not affect them that much.
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#172 DarthNinja

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:03 AM

I don't know about that. I was spanked and so was many of my friends and they all turned into fine citizens of society. Yet I've seen little kids who were never punished or touched turn into brats and little punks that were spoiled. The results speak for themselves and if spanking is the only method to raise the child right, then so be it. I don't mean extreme violence on kids but a balanced reward and punishment system that guides them to what the wrong and right actions are. Kids today are so spoiled and lack manners and most of them probably never had a spanking in their life but I guess that is considered an example of good parenting nowadays.


Just face it, man...we were all severely abused and tortured as children by our parents and that's why we beat and murder people by day and then come post here about how there's nothing wrong with spanking by night.
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#173 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:06 AM

Don't a lot of Asian and Indian parents beat their children? Yet they produce some of the smartest kids in the world.


maybe that because their society has the longest history of teaching their kids ,that education is the best way to escape poverty .
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#174 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:09 AM

Oh please! :rolleyes:


If you have to hit a fellow human being to get them to act in a certain way , what does that say about you ?
and what message are you sending that person ?
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#175 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:12 AM

When that child is already exposed to an excessive dose of violent movies and games, the spanking and "act of violence" probably would not affect them that much.


so you are reinforcing the message that it is okay to use acts of violence to get what you want .
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#176 Pouria

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:20 AM

so you are reinforcing the message that it is okay to use acts of violence to get what you want .


Today's kids that were exposed to "positive parenting" are sure turning into bright minds, what with all the cyber bullying and whatnot. Whats a punishment without fear? The fact that the kid could do anything he wants and not face any real consequences or fear any type of punishment. Fear is what guides the kids into making the right decisions instead of wrong ones just like those disturbing smoking commercials that show the real consequences of what smoking does to the body.
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#177 Pouria

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:27 AM

Please, stop with the act of violence non-sense. If they don't get a little exposure to that act of violence they will either turn up a spoiled brat with no fear of doing anything or a loud mouth jerk with a big ego or someone who ends up committing suicide because they just got exposed to real acts of violence and bullies. They will eventually become exposed to this "act of violence" once they enter elementary or high school. It is better to prepare them early in their childhood so they don't get a shock once they become a little older and suddenly get exposed to real life violence and a violent society.
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#178 Machine Gun Kelly

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:39 AM

Only in Cleveland
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#179 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:41 AM

Today's kids that were exposed to "positive parenting" are sure turning into bright minds, what with all the cyber bullying and whatnot. Whats a punishment without fear? The fact that the kid could do anything he wants and not face any real consequences or fear any type of punishment. Fear is what guides the kids into making the right decisions instead of wrong ones just like those disturbing smoking commercials that show the real consequences of what smoking does to the body.


when i was 5 years old my mother told me to do something , i calmly told her i could not do what she told me , because that would give her power over me .

then she reasoned with me and ASKED me , that was when i complied .

several years later , i was beaten by a nun , sister cyril , after this i made her life as hard as possible for the next 4 years , and the more she beat me , the more trouble i gave her .

controlling some one through fear is wrong , and will backfire on you one way or another
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Aldous Huxley.


#180 Machine Gun Kelly

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:46 AM

A child should NEVER have to fear being hit by their parent, doesn't matter if all it is, is a light smack. I've done my share of fracked up stuff, and let me tell you that being able to tell your parents things truthfully and knowing you won't be hurt will get you along way.
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