Jaimito Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 time to cut the deal. let's get the season started i like how it is still a full 82 gm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Nope, its not. You can counter; or u can tender a completely independent offer. Then the original is on the table till withdrawn. But people can talk as much as they want in the interim... No, it is. That's why this is an Offer, and not negotiations. They can sit down all day over coffee and donuts and talk about where they'd like to be and it isn't legally binding. This is a contract offer. The second the NHLPA asks for anything else, it's a counter-offer. This is also literally how all negotiations with all Unions work all the time everywhere. Negotiations to understand positions and where the other party is willing to go, and then an official offer. If the NHLPA says boo, the Owners go to the press. I'm not trying to talk down or be a douche, and I will hold off until this is confirmed, and come eat crow if I'm wrong, but there are only 2 conclusions here. The NHLPA unilaterally agrees to accept it. Or they reject the offer. There won't be words like 'sat down to negotiate' in the heading. The word they'll use is reject, and that offer will no longer be available, and in a few days the NHLPA will file a formal counter-proposal. There's not a new offer given every day during these things. There's a lot of talk, and then lawyers draft up these complicated 200 page proposals only once they understand what they can and can not get away with. It's either Accept or Reject, is all I'm saying. There won't be a situation where this is amended and signed within a few hours. It's completely impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Players won't accept this one for sure. But hopefully they only make some minor tweaks here and there and submit a reasonable counter offer. Let's get this deal done! 82 games would be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 NHL proposal not met with great enthusiasm: The first official NHLPA reaction to the NHL offer is in -- NHLPA executive director Don Fehr sent a letter to all players and agents last night -- and not unexpectedly the league's proposal wasn't met with great enthusiasm. In the letter, which breaks down a summary of the NHL offer, Fehr writes the following: - "Simply put, the owners' new proposal, while not quite as Draconian as their previous proposals, still represents enormous reductions in player salaries and individual contracting rights. As you will see, at the 5 per cent industry growth rate the owners predict, the salary reduction over six years exceeds $1.6 billion. What do the owners offer in return?" - "The proposal does represent movement from their last negotiating position, but still represents very large, immediate and continuing concessions by players to owners, in salary and benefits (the Players' Share) and in individual player contracting rules." On some of the specific aspects of the NHL proposal: - "They want to "clarify" HRR definition and rules. It is not immediately clear what this means, but so far all of their ideas in this regard have had the effect of reducing HRR, and thereby lowering salaries." - "The Players' Share is reduced to 50 per cent from 57 per cent immediately -- this season. This is a reduction in the share of 12.3 per cent. On last year's revenue numbers, this would mean that players' salaries would be cut by about $231 million." - "The proposal includes a "Make Whole" provision, to compensate players for the anticipated reduction in absolute dollars from last year (2011-12), to this year and next year. However, it would work like this. The Players Share in subsequent years would be reduced so that this "Make Whole" payment would be made. It is players paying players, not owners paying players. That is, players are "made whole" for reduced salaries in one year by reducing their salaries in later years." - "Finally, they also proposed that the players could appeal supplemental or commissioner discipline to a neutral arbitration, on a "clearly erroneous" standard, which, as a practical manner, makes it very unlikely that any decision would be overturned." The final two paragraphs of the letter sums up where Fehr believes the process is at and reinforces the players' position on all issues: - "We do not yet know whether this proposal is a serious attempt to negotiate an agreement, or just another step down the road. The next several days will be, in large part, an effort to discover the answer to that question." - "Bear in mind the approach that the Players have taken to these negotiations. It is: - Given the enormous concessions players made in the last round, plus 7 years of record revenue reaching $3.3 billion last season, there is no reason for a reduction in the amount the players receive. - Players are willing to take reduced share going forward so that the NHL can grow out of whatever problems some franchises face. - The player contracting rights secured in the last negotiations should be, at minimum, maintained. - Revenue sharing needs to be enhanced and structured so as to encourage revenue growth by the receiving teams. - The overall agreement has to be fair and equitable for both parties. Bargaining is both give and take." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucks_dynasty Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 The problem is that the Owners are coming to the Players with what the Players asked for. With minor changes. The Players making a counter of any kind makes them look greedy, because this is, by all rights and by every opinion expressed since the offer came out, an extremely reasonable offer. It's such a reasonable offer that there's not enough places you could argue that it would be worth fighting for. Which means that the Players would be rejecting an offer, knowing it can't get significantly better, and postponing the season further. To try and tweak an offer that very, very few fans or media writers seem to oppose. If there isn't NHL hockey on November 3rd, then the NHLPA has done something unreasonable and they should be vilified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Fehr doesn't seem like he's content to get a contract that the players can live with. He wants to win every little thing. If he is that stubborn he could cost everyone this season. Hope that's not the case but that's how he comes across to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTG Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I don't think I'm alone in saying that, if this goes bad, I'm pretty much ready to quit with the NHL. If this goes so bad that they ruin the chance of a season, I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodBadUgly Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 So if the NHLPA accepts the deal all of the players that went to Russia and Europe will come back to the NHL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucks_dynasty Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 So if the NHLPA accepts the deal all of the players that went to Russia and Europe will come back to the NHL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panelguy Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 The Bettman makes this sound like an owners concession. It's a huge players concession fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Fehr doesn't seem like he's content to get a contract that the players can live with. He wants to win every little thing. If he is that stubborn he could cost everyone this season. Hope that's not the case but that's how he comes across to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gady Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 The problem is that the Owners are coming to the Players with what the Players asked for. With minor changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NHLFan33 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Hey folks. It looks like there might be some traction in negotiations right now and perhaps more than ever, I think fans can make a difference. This dispute is basically about money, and one of the main facts that has allowed both the NHL and NHLPA to be so bold about fighting over a few % points of revenue is a lack of fear that losing games or the season will cost them any meaningful amount of fans or revenue when play resumes. I think both sides might take negotiatiosn a little more seriosuly if they start to have their doubts about whehter HRR will take a hit or not. And here's where I think fans can apply some pressure. There seem to be a variety of fan sites arisign online giving fans a voice. There's twitters like NHKLFanBoycott and NHLFanBoycott1 and NHLFA. There's facebook pages like NHL Fan Boycott and NHL Fan Lockout Pledge. There's websites like the Fan letter posted on this forum, NHLFanBoycott.com, and NHLFansArmy.com. I know its hard to get fans motivated and organized and the impact of any of these sites is a function of how many peopel get involved. But, as Gretzky said - 100% of the shots you dont take dont score, so I for one am all for trying at least. for every digruntled fan that takes the time to let the NHL/NHLPA know, they can probably bank on 50 pissed off fans that arent online saying something, so even a few 1000 fans shoudl be enough to get their attention. I guess my rant is just to say that in the next few days, if you want the Lockout to end, it migth be worth tryign to make your voice heard and the internet makes it easier than ever before. If there are other good online fan spots, it migth be helpful to post them in thsi thread too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobopan Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 If im a Canucks fan i don't want the players to sign this deal.. Say goodbye to Edler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbal23 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I don't think I'm alone in saying that, if this goes bad, I'm pretty much ready to quit with the NHL. If this goes so bad that they ruin the chance of a season, I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunCanuck Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 "100% of the shots you dont take dont score" -Wayne Gretzky Are you sure that's what he said? Doesn't sound familiar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirt Nasty Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 "100% of the shots you dont take dont score" -Wayne Gretzky Are you sure that's what he said? Doesn't sound familiar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc44 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Take it, you chump millionaires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Based on what? The NHL's previous offers not only slashed the players' share but also reduce what qualified for HRR to begin with, denied players arbitration, limited contract lengths but lengthening RFA service requirements and all while owners offered to give nothing. Even this latest offer requires players to give in every regard - reduced salaries, reduced cap limiting future pay increases, limited contract lengths and lengthened amount of service required to become UFAs. In fact, from what I can see, the owners have simply shorted their laundry list of demands, not given anything. The ONLY thing the players can even begin to call a "win" is the NHL's proposal including a commonsense expansion of league revenue sharing to help the poorer teams. Yep, that's what the players asked for that this offer gives them, and it actually helps the owners most of all. And then there's that murky matter of requiring minor league contracts to be counted against a team's cap. Sure, the NHL website says it shouldn't be counted against the players' share, but the players' share IS the cap. That's what determines the cap, that's what determines who's owed money from the portion of salaries held back in escrow each year. And that's what determines how much salary teams can offer players. How could that not limit the players' share? So, I don't understand your point that "Fehr wants to win every little thing." when the reality is they haven't won anything or gotten anything. It wasn't the players who gave a proposal with a ultimatum (remember the NHL's first proposal?) and the players have said all along they will take a lowered percentage, but that doesn't mean they should be required to give up everything else too while the owners yet again give nothing and just demand more and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 As I said..."based on how he comes across to me" when I listen to him talk or read his comments. No doubt the players are the ones who are going to have to give, since they had 57% of the HRR this past season. 50-50 is too much of a reduction for the first year no doubt but it's a huge step by the owners so hopefully the players would be willing to go around 52-48 or something for the first year. Both sides are going to have to make concessions to get a deal done. My point was that we shouldn't blame the whole lock out on Bettman...if the season is lost it will be both their faults. Fehr seems like he's happy to just sit back and watch the owners squirm as opposed to making an offer. Now that Bettman has made one hopefully real negotiations can take place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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