Jester@wraiths.ca Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 Really? This generation? You do realize crime has been declining ever since the 80's right? This is including violent and non-violent crimes (by which non-violent have gone up slightly, but violent down ALOT) and you realize the amount of media coverage we have in todays society vs 30-50 years ago? Please.. the world isn't going to sh**. And actually, to be truthful, its your generation that went to s***. Violent crime rates were highest in the 60's and 70's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Their Mother contacted authorities...that must have been a tough one for her. It's a sad state we're in, when kids are strategically plotting murder. God, whatever happened to hanging out at the skate park? And I agree that media/fantasy likely do factor in. Killing is seen as cool and people have multiple lives. Not saying it's the cause/root, but it's just part of the overall theme and some kids are totally desensitized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Their Mother contacted authorities...that must have been a tough one for her. It's a sad state we're in, when kids are strategically plotting murder. God, whatever happened to hanging out at the skate park? And I agree that media/fantasy likely do factor in. Killing is seen as cool and people have multiple lives. Not saying it's the cause/root, but it's just part of the overall theme and some kids are totally desensitized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down by the River Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 As a kid who grew up watching pretty much whatever I wanted, and played violent video games, I've gotta disagree. I never thought it was cool. I was just playing the game. It's not a movies fault that these kids are morons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmployeeoftheMonth Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Yeah... corporal punishment teaches kids to be violent...right...something that hasn't existed for what...40 years? is teaching these kids to be violent. Brilliant... As far as attacking - yes you did - if you simply said, well..the facts are that violent crime among kids is lower today then in 1966 and here's the source for that - then that would be non threatening/attacking. Facepalming someone because of their "feeling" is illogical - maybe to make fun of them - then yes - but what's another word for making fun of someone? If you're going to be all FACTS are FACTS kind of guy when replying to posts then you better back it up with more then a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Sure. I've played soccer against kids who would want to hurt people. Maybe it's competitive nature, not violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmployeeoftheMonth Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Sure. I've played soccer against kids who would want to hurt people. Maybe it's competitive nature, not violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpcurtly Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Thanks EOTM...some good info there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tearloch7 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Excellent perspective, EOTM .. I was raised in a strict household, and subjected to corporal punishment in school and at home.. the only effect physical punishment had on us was to make us "heroes" .. standing up to the "man" .. it made many of us look for trouble as a means of gaining recognition .. and for some of us, it continued on into adulthood .. luckily, none of us had a "whacky gene" that led us to more psychotic behavior .. that I know of .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 People interpret and process things differently. When I was growing up I remember hearing about kids getting trapped in the sewers looking for the Ninja Turtles. I watched that show religiously and never would have thought in a million years these things were real. The truth is there are so many "invisible" disabilities out there and many people/kids can squeeze through without getting any help. Getting an FASD or an ARSD diagnosis now is much easier than even 10 years ago. Somebody with delayed processing and cognitive skills even in the mildest sense can potentially take something drastically different than somebody who is considered neural typical. The truth is there's so many things that could factor into things like this it's almost pointless to point at anything in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus099 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Psychologically speaking, media/fantasy are likely to be a big part of it. Combine that with a lack of judgement, and you have a recipe for disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I appreciate that you did do work to look up what relevant literature has said (I'm being sincere, no internet sarcasm). However, in virtually all of the following empirical articles and book chapters, abuse is identified as having a strong and positive relationship with future offending: Cale, J. (2006). Criminology 313- Specific Types of Crime: Serious & Violent Youth. Custom Violence and serious theft: Development and prediction from childhood to adulthood[e2] (pp. 169-229). New York, NY: Routledge. Howell, J.C., Krisberg, B., & Jones, M. (1995). Trends in juvenile crime and youth violence. In J.C. Howell, B. Krisberg, J.D. Hawkins, & J.J. Wilson (Eds.), A sourcebook: Serious, violent, & chronic juvenile offending (pp. 1-35). Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications, Inc. Treatment of antisocial behavior in children: Current status and future directions. Kazdin, Alan E. Psychological Bulletin, Vol 102(2), Sep 1987, 187-203. Loeber, R., & Farrington, D. P. (1998). Serious and violent juvenile offenders. In R. Loeber & D. P. Farrington (Eds.), Serious and violent juvenile offenders: Risk factors and successful interventions (pp. 13–29). Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications, [e3] . Loeber, R., Farrington, D.P., Stouthamer-Loeber, M., Moffitt, T.E., & Caspi, A. (2001). The development of male offending: Key findings from the first decade of the Pittsburgh Youth Study. In R. Bull (Ed.), Children and the law: Essential readings in developmental psychology (pp. 336-380). Oxford, UK: Blackwell Publishers Ltd. Loeber, R., & Hay, D.F. (1994). Developmental approaches to aggression and conduct problems. In M. Rutter & D.F. Hay (Eds.), Development through life: A handbook for clinicians (pp. 448-516). London, UK: Blackwell Scientific Publications. Loeber, R., & Stouthamer-Loeber, M. (1996). The development of offending. Criminal Justice and Behavior 23(1), 12-24. Loeber, R., & Stouthamer-Loeber, M. (1998). Development of juvenile aggression and violence: Some common misconceptions and controversies. American Psychologist 52(2), 242-259. Moffitt, T.E. (1993). "Life-course-persistent" and "adolescent-limited" antisocial behavior: A developmental taxonomy. Psychological Review 100, 974-701. Moffitt, T.E., Caspi, A., Harrington, H., & Milne, B.J. (2002). Males on the life-course-persistent and adolescence-limited antisocial pathways: Follow-up at age 26 years. Development and Psychopathology 14, 179-207. Patterson, G.R., Forgatch, M.S., Yoerger, K.L., & Stoolmiller, M. (1998). Variables that initiate and maintain an early-onset trajectory of juvenile offending. Development and Psychopathology 10, 531-547. Piquero, A.R., & Brezina, T. (2006). Testing Moffitt’s account of Adolescence-Limited delinquency. Criminology 39(2), 353-370. Piquero, A.R., Farrington, D.P., & Blumstein, A. (2007). Key issues in criminal career research: New analyses of the Cambridge Study in delinquent development. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press. Piquero, A.R., & Moffitt, T.E. (2008). Explaining the facts of crime: How the developmental taxonomy replies to Farrington’s invitation. In D.P. Farrington (Ed.), Integrated development & life-course theories of offending (Vol. 14, pp. 51-72). New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers. Robins, L. (1966). Deviant children grown up: A sociological and psychiatric study of sociopathic personality. Baltimore, MD: Williams and Wilkins. Sampson, R.J., & Laub, J.H. (1992). Crime and deviance in the life course. Annual Review of Sociology 18, 63-84. Sampson, R.J., & Laub, J.H. (2003). Life-course desisters? Trajectories of crime among delinquent boys followed to age 70. Criminology 41, 555-592. Savage, J. (2009). Understanding persistent offending: Linking developmental psychology with research on the criminal career. In J. Savage (Ed.), The development of persistent criminality (pp. 3-33). Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press. Schubert, C.A., Mulvey, E.P., Loughran, T.A., & Losoya, S.H. (2012) Perceptions of institutional experience and community outcomes for serious adolescent offenders. Criminal Justice and Behavior 39(1), 71-93. Thornberry, T.P., Huizinga, D., & Loeber, R. (1995). The prevention of serious delinquency and violence: Implications from the program of research on the causes and correlates of delinquency. In J.C. Howell, B. Krisberg, J.D. Hawkins, & J.J. Wilson (Eds.), A sourcebook: Serious, violent, & chronic juvenile offending (pp. 213-237). Thousand Oaks, CA: SAGE Publications, Inc. Tracy, P.E., Wolfgang, M.E., Figlio, R.M. (1990). Delinquency careers in two birth cohorts. New York, NY: Plenum Press. Tremblay, R.E., & Nagin, D.S. (2005). The developmental origins of physical aggression in humans. In R.E. Tremblay, W.W. Hartup, & J. Archer (Eds.), Developmental origins of aggression (pp. 83-106). New York, NY: The Guilford Press. White, H.R., Bates, M.E., & Buyske, S. (2001). Adolescence-limited versus persistent delinquency: Examining Moffitt’s hypothesis into adulthood. Journal of Abnormal Psychology 110(4), 600-609 While corporal punishment may have worked in some cases, in other cases it would have lead to direct aggravation of future risk for antisocial and/or criminal behaviour. There are methods other than corporal punishment that are equally (if not moreso effective) that do not carry the same risks that corporal punishment does. EDIT: In regard to the article that you listed, the type of corporal punishment that had positive outcomes involved two light slaps to the buttocks of children aged 2-6 which was followed by the parent(s) re-affirming their love for the child afterward. So these findings (a) don't support the use of corporal punishment in schools, (b ) suggest that corporal punishment be very minimal (i.e. no use of the strap), and © suggest that children be handled tenderly following spanking. So, corporal punishment will not be effective when used by teachers, when used excessively, when used with a degree of force, and when not followed with positive parenting. I think this quote from the article you cited is most telling (found on the second page): So, kids whose parents use a balance of love and limits, that includes backup spanking, were found to have better outcomes than overly permissive parents and parents who used punitive/authoritarian parenting styles. The key in this research is that authoritative (not authoritarian) parents who didn't spank children were included in the same group that used backup spanking. In this research, there was no way to tease apart the differences between authoritarian parents who didn't spank, and authoritarian parents who did spank. So, the research doesn't even suggest that light spanking as a backup plan works better when compared to authoritative parents who do not spank. It may still be that the differences between the balanced parenting group and the permissive and punitive parenting groups were due to the better outcomes of children who were parented using an authoritative style that did not include spanking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I'm a behavior therapist with a Masters in Psychology and to answer your question yes absolutely corporal punishment breeds violence. One can make a case about spanking for sure but your comment was to bring out the strap. That will not change behavior and certainly will show that using a strap or beating the piss out of somebody is an ok thing to do. If you think that corporal punishment is dead simply because it isn't in school...well Heretic I know you're smarter than that. Also it isn't really dead in schools either. http://mhbenton.word...e-to-education/ If you believe corporal punishment has a positive effect on people I have to ask you to read through the article. It's mostly a really good read although I could have done without the "stereotypical response" section as I think it serves little purpose. I hate to make the comparison but quite frankly it holds true. If you beat a dog every time it does something wrong what ends up happening to that dog? Does it cower in fear around you afraid of doing anything wrong? Probably? Chances are that dog doesn't do much wrong...around you. (hypothetically of course.) What are the chances that dog becomes violent if all you teach it is violence? What are the chances that dog lashes out at everything else or even eventually it's owner? It's not difficult to take something cute and cuddly and turn it into a jerk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flapjacks Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 you're posting some very depressing news articles today my friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmployeeoftheMonth Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Ok. So it's not video games or movies. It's likely upbringing. My parents taught me not to be a moron, so I didn't exhibit behaviour from the entertainment industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmployeeoftheMonth Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Well I read the article - and I agree - corporal punishment does not add value to education. And yes, I did not think it was still used today in our culture in school...wow...I am a bit shocked... No - beating the piss out of anybody is not okay - I didn't say to crucify them nor take a whip and lash them 39 times until they were bleeding to death... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VancouverCanucksRock Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 HANG 'em both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 No you said bring out the strap. I'm sorry but if someone has to use any weapon of any kind they are in the wrong. If a person pulls a belt or a tent pole or anything other than their hand on a clothed arse they've gone to far. If someone is really looking for corrective behavior that's all that is necessary. If that person thinks that isn't enough then it's likely more to do with them than the child or the action. I have spoken to several parents about this and in extreme cases I've asked them a question. I ask them that if I don't like what they are doing and I take my shoe off and slap it across their back would it make them stop. More often than not the answer is no I'd beat the hell out of you. That's the part where I look at them and way for them to catch my drift...so to speak. I don't actually have a problem with spanking but there is a line and that line should be clear. You do not spank a child with anything but your hand and you do not spank a childs bare skin. Anything that leaves any sort of mark for more than a few moments and you've gone to far. I'm getting off topic though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester@wraiths.ca Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 you're posting some very depressing news articles today my friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmployeeoftheMonth Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Well...it's kind of on topic - like you just said " if someone has to use any weapon of any kind they are in the wrong". So what do you do about these kids? What if you caught them in the act - what do you do? What if they were attacking your child? What do you do? What if you're a police officer with a gun? Do you shoot someone who looks like they are about to kill someone? What about these kids? Can they be rehabilitated? What if money is spent on that, they get out of jail, or juvy or what have you and then they repeat their violent behaviour? In other words, what do you do to people who don't stop hurting other people? Do you draw a line somewhere? You said "if someone has to use any weapon of any kind they are in the wrong" - well your hand can be a weapon as well. When do you, EOTM, draw the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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