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Teen brothers charged for luring then murdering 12 year old girl


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#61 Jester@wraiths.ca

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 05:33 PM

Really? This generation? You do realize crime has been declining ever since the 80's right? This is including violent and non-violent crimes (by which non-violent have gone up slightly, but violent down ALOT) and you realize the amount of media coverage we have in todays society vs 30-50 years ago? Please.. the world isn't going to sh**.

And actually, to be truthful, its your generation that went to s***. Violent crime rates were highest in the 60's and 70's.


To really understand trends in violence in regards to age, you also have to look at the percentage of the population in the various age groups. The elderly will be in the minority for the violent attacks, and that matters to statistics - the percentage of population over 65 is vastly larger than it had been decades ago. In the UK for instance, the population of 65 and older is 80% more than it was 6 decades ago. Any reference to blanket population totals in relation to crimes per capita is looking at a flawed result.

Many violent crimes were reported at their peak in the 90's, when gangs were prominent and law enforcement wasn't as prepared for dealing with them as they are now.

#62 debluvscanucks

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 05:42 PM

Their Mother contacted authorities...that must have been a tough one for her.

It's a sad state we're in, when kids are strategically plotting murder. God, whatever happened to hanging out at the skate park?

And I agree that media/fantasy likely do factor in. Killing is seen as cool and people have multiple lives. Not saying it's the cause/root, but it's just part of the overall theme and some kids are totally desensitized.

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#63 Stefan

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 06:03 PM

Their Mother contacted authorities...that must have been a tough one for her.

It's a sad state we're in, when kids are strategically plotting murder. God, whatever happened to hanging out at the skate park?

And I agree that media/fantasy likely do factor in. Killing is seen as cool and people have multiple lives. Not saying it's the cause/root, but it's just part of the overall theme and some kids are totally desensitized.

As a kid who grew up watching pretty much whatever I wanted, and played violent video games, I've gotta disagree.
I never thought it was cool. I was just playing the game. It's not a movies fault that these kids are morons.

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Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.



 

#64 Down by the River

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 06:16 PM

As a kid who grew up watching pretty much whatever I wanted, and played violent video games, I've gotta disagree.
I never thought it was cool. I was just playing the game. It's not a movies fault that these kids are morons.


To be fair to Deb, she is not saying that violent video games are the cause or root of violence. However, for certain individuals who are already predisposed to being violent or who have violent fantasies, it may be that video games and violent movies help bring out these predispositions.

Keep in mind that the youth who murdered Laura Szendrei was an avid video game player and that the police were able to get him to confess by luring him in through a video game contest.


The young man who pleaded guilty to killing 15-year-old Laura Szendrei was arrested after a Mr. Big operation that drew him into a Call of Duty video game tournament.


http://www.theglobea...article4589387/

Video games are not being suggested to be a cause of violence, and this report is simply anecdotal, but perhaps there should be a bit of concern.

Edited by Down by the River, 24 October 2012 - 06:20 PM.

OMG we could've had McKeown!

I think Virtanen was a terrible pick given that he's out for 6 months which will hinder his development. You don't pick someone at #6 under that circumstance, along with the fact that he was given a 3/5 IQ (aka he's dumb). 

God dammit Benning. WHY VIRTANEN? Terrible move.

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#65 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 06:31 PM

Yeah... corporal punishment teaches kids to be violent...right...something that hasn't existed for what...40 years? is teaching these kids to be violent.

Brilliant...

As far as attacking - yes you did - if you simply said, well..the facts are that violent crime among kids is lower today then in 1966 and here's the source for that - then that would be non threatening/attacking.

Facepalming someone because of their "feeling" is illogical - maybe to make fun of them - then yes - but what's another word for making fun of someone?

If you're going to be all FACTS are FACTS kind of guy when replying to posts then you better back it up with more then a :picard:

I'm a behavior therapist with a Masters in Psychology and to answer your question yes absolutely corporal punishment breeds violence. One can make a case about spanking for sure but your comment was to bring out the strap. That will not change behavior and certainly will show that using a strap or beating the piss out of somebody is an ok thing to do.

If you think that corporal punishment is dead simply because it isn't in school...well Heretic I know you're smarter than that.

Also it isn't really dead in schools either. http://mhbenton.word...e-to-education/ If you believe corporal punishment has a positive effect on people I have to ask you to read through the article. It's mostly a really good read although I could have done without the "stereotypical response" section as I think it serves little purpose.

I hate to make the comparison but quite frankly it holds true. If you beat a dog every time it does something wrong what ends up happening to that dog? Does it cower in fear around you afraid of doing anything wrong? Probably? Chances are that dog doesn't do much wrong...around you. (hypothetically of course.) What are the chances that dog becomes violent if all you teach it is violence? What are the chances that dog lashes out at everything else or even eventually it's owner? It's not difficult to take something cute and cuddly and turn it into a jerk.
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#66 Stefan

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 06:32 PM

Sure. I've played soccer against kids who would want to hurt people. Maybe it's competitive nature, not violence.

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#67 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 06:40 PM

Sure. I've played soccer against kids who would want to hurt people. Maybe it's competitive nature, not violence.

People interpret and process things differently. When I was growing up I remember hearing about kids getting trapped in the sewers looking for the Ninja Turtles. I watched that show religiously and never would have thought in a million years these things were real.

The truth is there are so many "invisible" disabilities out there and many people/kids can squeeze through without getting any help. Getting an FASD or an ARSD diagnosis now is much easier than even 10 years ago. Somebody with delayed processing and cognitive skills even in the mildest sense can potentially take something drastically different than somebody who is considered neural typical.

The truth is there's so many things that could factor into things like this it's almost pointless to point at anything in particular.

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 24 October 2012 - 06:42 PM.

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#68 pimpcurtly

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 06:54 PM

Thanks EOTM...some good info there.
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#69 Tearloch7

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:17 PM

Excellent perspective, EOTM .. I was raised in a strict household, and subjected to corporal punishment in school and at home.. the only effect physical punishment had on us was to make us "heroes" .. standing up to the "man" .. it made many of us look for trouble as a means of gaining recognition .. and for some of us, it continued on into adulthood .. luckily, none of us had a "whacky gene" that led us to more psychotic behavior .. that I know of ..

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#70 Stefan

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:18 PM

People interpret and process things differently. When I was growing up I remember hearing about kids getting trapped in the sewers looking for the Ninja Turtles. I watched that show religiously and never would have thought in a million years these things were real.

The truth is there are so many "invisible" disabilities out there and many people/kids can squeeze through without getting any help. Getting an FASD or an ARSD diagnosis now is much easier than even 10 years ago. Somebody with delayed processing and cognitive skills even in the mildest sense can potentially take something drastically different than somebody who is considered neural typical.

The truth is there's so many things that could factor into things like this it's almost pointless to point at anything in particular.

Ok. So it's not video games or movies. It's likely upbringing.
My parents taught me not to be a moron, so I didn't exhibit behaviour from the entertainment industry.

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(1 Peter 2:18)

Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.



 

#71 Primus099

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:20 PM

Psychologically speaking, media/fantasy are likely to be a big part of it.

Combine that with a lack of judgement, and you have a recipe for disaster.


I played alot of video games when i was a kid, i even watched violent movies like terminator 2 and scarface when i was around 10 years old.

and this story makes me sick, I can't even wrap my head around what would make someone do this. If movies/video games are the reason for somebody doing this then they already had serious pre-existing mental problems

#72 Heretic

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:33 PM

I appreciate that you did do work to look up what relevant literature has said (I'm being sincere, no internet sarcasm). However, in virtually all of the following empirical articles and book chapters, abuse is identified as having a strong and positive relationship with future offending:

Cale, J. (2006). Criminology 313- Specific Types of Crime: Serious & Violent Youth. Custom Violence and serious theft: Development and prediction from childhood to adulthood[e2] (pp. 169-229). New York, NY: Routledge.

Howell, J.C., Krisberg, B., & Jones, M. (1995). Trends in juvenile crime and youth violence. In J.C. Howell, B. Krisberg, J.D. Hawkins, & J.J. Wilson (Eds.), A sourcebook: Serious, violent, & chronic juvenile offending (pp. 1-35). Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications, Inc.


Treatment of antisocial behavior in children: Current status and future directions. Kazdin, Alan E. Psychological Bulletin, Vol 102(2), Sep 1987, 187-203.


Loeber, R., & Farrington, D. P. (1998). Serious and violent juvenile offenders. In R. Loeber & D. P. Farrington (Eds.), Serious and violent juvenile offenders: Risk factors and successful interventions (pp. 13–29). Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications, [e3] .

Loeber, R., Farrington, D.P., Stouthamer-Loeber, M., Moffitt, T.E., & Caspi, A. (2001). The development of male offending: Key findings from the first decade of the Pittsburgh Youth Study. In R. Bull (Ed.), Children and the law: Essential readings in developmental psychology (pp. 336-380). Oxford, UK: Blackwell Publishers Ltd.

Loeber, R., & Hay, D.F. (1994). Developmental approaches to aggression and conduct problems. In M. Rutter & D.F. Hay (Eds.), Development through life: A handbook for clinicians (pp. 448-516). London, UK: Blackwell Scientific Publications.

Loeber, R., & Stouthamer-Loeber, M. (1996). The development of offending. Criminal Justice and Behavior 23(1), 12-24.

Loeber, R., & Stouthamer-Loeber, M. (1998). Development of juvenile aggression and violence: Some common misconceptions and controversies. American Psychologist 52(2), 242-259.

Moffitt, T.E. (1993). "Life-course-persistent" and "adolescent-limited" antisocial behavior: A developmental taxonomy. Psychological Review 100, 974-701.

Moffitt, T.E., Caspi, A., Harrington, H., & Milne, B.J. (2002). Males on the life-course-persistent and adolescence-limited antisocial pathways: Follow-up at age 26 years. Development and Psychopathology 14, 179-207.

Patterson, G.R., Forgatch, M.S., Yoerger, K.L., & Stoolmiller, M. (1998). Variables that initiate and maintain an early-onset trajectory of juvenile offending. Development and Psychopathology 10, 531-547.

Piquero, A.R., & Brezina, T. (2006). Testing Moffitt’s account of Adolescence-Limited delinquency. Criminology 39(2), 353-370.

Piquero, A.R., Farrington, D.P., & Blumstein, A. (2007). Key issues in criminal career research: New analyses of the Cambridge Study in delinquent development. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press.

Piquero, A.R., & Moffitt, T.E. (2008). Explaining the facts of crime: How the developmental taxonomy replies to Farrington’s invitation. In D.P. Farrington (Ed.), Integrated development & life-course theories of offending (Vol. 14, pp. 51-72). New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers.

Robins, L. (1966). Deviant children grown up: A sociological and psychiatric study of sociopathic personality. Baltimore, MD: Williams and Wilkins.

Sampson, R.J., & Laub, J.H. (1992). Crime and deviance in the life course. Annual Review of Sociology 18, 63-84.

Sampson, R.J., & Laub, J.H. (2003). Life-course desisters? Trajectories of crime among delinquent boys followed to age 70. Criminology 41, 555-592.

Savage, J. (2009). Understanding persistent offending: Linking developmental psychology with research on the criminal career. In J. Savage (Ed.), The development of persistent criminality (pp. 3-33). Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press.

Schubert, C.A., Mulvey, E.P., Loughran, T.A., & Losoya, S.H. (2012) Perceptions of institutional experience and community outcomes for serious adolescent offenders. Criminal Justice and Behavior 39(1), 71-93.

Thornberry, T.P., Huizinga, D., & Loeber, R. (1995). The prevention of serious delinquency and violence: Implications from the program of research on the causes and correlates of delinquency. In J.C. Howell, B. Krisberg, J.D. Hawkins, & J.J. Wilson (Eds.), A sourcebook: Serious, violent, & chronic juvenile offending (pp. 213-237). Thousand Oaks, CA: SAGE Publications, Inc.

Tracy, P.E., Wolfgang, M.E., Figlio, R.M. (1990). Delinquency careers in two birth cohorts. New York, NY: Plenum Press.
Tremblay, R.E., & Nagin, D.S. (2005). The developmental origins of physical aggression in humans. In R.E. Tremblay, W.W.

Hartup, & J. Archer (Eds.), Developmental origins of aggression (pp. 83-106). New York, NY: The Guilford Press.

White, H.R., Bates, M.E., & Buyske, S. (2001). Adolescence-limited versus persistent delinquency: Examining Moffitt’s hypothesis into adulthood. Journal of Abnormal Psychology 110(4), 600-609


While corporal punishment may have worked in some cases, in other cases it would have lead to direct aggravation of future risk for antisocial and/or criminal behaviour. There are methods other than corporal punishment that are equally (if not moreso effective) that do not carry the same risks that corporal punishment does.


EDIT:

In regard to the article that you listed, the type of corporal punishment that had positive outcomes involved two light slaps to the buttocks of children aged 2-6 which was followed by the parent(s) re-affirming their love for the child afterward.

So these findings (a) don't support the use of corporal punishment in schools, (b ) suggest that corporal punishment be very minimal (i.e. no use of the strap), and © suggest that children be handled tenderly following spanking.

So, corporal punishment will not be effective when used by teachers, when used excessively, when used with a degree of force, and when not followed with positive parenting.

I think this quote from the article you cited is most telling (found on the second page):



So, kids whose parents use a balance of love and limits, that includes backup spanking, were found to have better outcomes than overly permissive parents and parents who used punitive/authoritarian parenting styles. The key in this research is that authoritative (not authoritarian) parents who didn't spank children were included in the same group that used backup spanking. In this research, there was no way to tease apart the differences between authoritarian parents who didn't spank, and authoritarian parents who did spank. So, the research doesn't even suggest that light spanking as a backup plan works better when compared to authoritative parents who do not spank. It may still be that the differences between the balanced parenting group and the permissive and punitive parenting groups were due to the better outcomes of children who were parented using an authoritative style that did not include spanking.


I agree with everything you said - thanks.

Like you said - the same punishment doesn't work for everyone.

Myself - I got the strap a few times and the wooden spoon.
In school, when I was early elementary - no one dared to do something stupid - out of fear.

Even though it was gone after a couple of years of my schooling - what it did teach me was to be respectful of teachers - something that is severely lacking today (based on stories from my wife from some of the schools she taught at).

Point I'm trying to make is - I never purposely nor in some state of psychosis harm anyone in my life...that is I turned out okay...

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Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#73 Heretic

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:45 PM

I'm a behavior therapist with a Masters in Psychology and to answer your question yes absolutely corporal punishment breeds violence. One can make a case about spanking for sure but your comment was to bring out the strap. That will not change behavior and certainly will show that using a strap or beating the piss out of somebody is an ok thing to do.

If you think that corporal punishment is dead simply because it isn't in school...well Heretic I know you're smarter than that.

Also it isn't really dead in schools either. http://mhbenton.word...e-to-education/ If you believe corporal punishment has a positive effect on people I have to ask you to read through the article. It's mostly a really good read although I could have done without the "stereotypical response" section as I think it serves little purpose.

I hate to make the comparison but quite frankly it holds true. If you beat a dog every time it does something wrong what ends up happening to that dog? Does it cower in fear around you afraid of doing anything wrong? Probably? Chances are that dog doesn't do much wrong...around you. (hypothetically of course.) What are the chances that dog becomes violent if all you teach it is violence? What are the chances that dog lashes out at everything else or even eventually it's owner? It's not difficult to take something cute and cuddly and turn it into a jerk.


Well I read the article - and I agree - corporal punishment does not add value to education.

And yes, I did not think it was still used today in our culture in school...wow...I am a bit shocked...

No - beating the piss out of anybody is not okay - I didn't say to crucify them nor take a whip and lash them 39 times until they were bleeding to death...

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#74 flapjacks

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:56 PM

you're posting some very depressing news articles today my friend

#75 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:50 PM

Ok. So it's not video games or movies. It's likely upbringing.
My parents taught me not to be a moron, so I didn't exhibit behaviour from the entertainment industry.


I didn't say it wasn't video games or movies though. I said there are many reasons.

My point was that just because something effects you one way does not mean it effects each person that way, There are plenty of people out there who simply cannot make the distinction between reality and fantasy or at the least have a real hard time finding the line between the two.

Media plays a factor as does upbringing, and hundreds of other factors. Seeing violence is the same as being the victim of violence to some people. It has something to do with your parents raising you not to be a moron but I can also assume you're neural typical and have probably had very little harsh violence in your life.

It's just as silly to say this isn't the problem as it is to say this is the problem. The best answer really is that it isn't anything; it's likely many things.

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 24 October 2012 - 09:00 PM.

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#76 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:58 PM

Well I read the article - and I agree - corporal punishment does not add value to education.

And yes, I did not think it was still used today in our culture in school...wow...I am a bit shocked...

No - beating the piss out of anybody is not okay - I didn't say to crucify them nor take a whip and lash them 39 times until they were bleeding to death...


No you said bring out the strap. I'm sorry but if someone has to use any weapon of any kind they are in the wrong. If a person pulls a belt or a tent pole or anything other than their hand on a clothed arse they've gone to far. If someone is really looking for corrective behavior that's all that is necessary. If that person thinks that isn't enough then it's likely more to do with them than the child or the action.

I have spoken to several parents about this and in extreme cases I've asked them a question. I ask them that if I don't like what they are doing and I take my shoe off and slap it across their back would it make them stop. More often than not the answer is no I'd beat the hell out of you. That's the part where I look at them and way for them to catch my drift...so to speak.

I don't actually have a problem with spanking but there is a line and that line should be clear. You do not spank a child with anything but your hand and you do not spank a childs bare skin. Anything that leaves any sort of mark for more than a few moments and you've gone to far.

I'm getting off topic though.
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#77 VancouverCanucksRock

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:38 PM

HANG 'em both

Edited by VancouverCanucksRock, 24 October 2012 - 09:39 PM.

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#78 Heretic

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:49 PM

No you said bring out the strap. I'm sorry but if someone has to use any weapon of any kind they are in the wrong. If a person pulls a belt or a tent pole or anything other than their hand on a clothed arse they've gone to far. If someone is really looking for corrective behavior that's all that is necessary. If that person thinks that isn't enough then it's likely more to do with them than the child or the action.

I have spoken to several parents about this and in extreme cases I've asked them a question. I ask them that if I don't like what they are doing and I take my shoe off and slap it across their back would it make them stop. More often than not the answer is no I'd beat the hell out of you. That's the part where I look at them and way for them to catch my drift...so to speak.

I don't actually have a problem with spanking but there is a line and that line should be clear. You do not spank a child with anything but your hand and you do not spank a childs bare skin. Anything that leaves any sort of mark for more than a few moments and you've gone to far.

I'm getting off topic though.


Well...it's kind of on topic - like you just said " if someone has to use any weapon of any kind they are in the wrong".

So what do you do about these kids?

What if you caught them in the act - what do you do?
What if they were attacking your child? What do you do?
What if you're a police officer with a gun? Do you shoot someone who looks like they are about to kill someone?

What about these kids? Can they be rehabilitated? What if money is spent on that, they get out of jail, or juvy or what have you and then they repeat their violent behaviour?

In other words, what do you do to people who don't stop hurting other people?

Do you draw a line somewhere?

You said "if someone has to use any weapon of any kind they are in the wrong" - well your hand can be a weapon as well.

When do you, EOTM, draw the line?

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Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#79 Jester@wraiths.ca

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 10:13 PM

you're posting some very depressing news articles today my friend


I think people need to take a good look at how our society is functioning.

Too many heads in the sand.

Too many people thinking that horrible events are just jokes, as long as it didn't happen to them.

#80 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 10:13 PM

Well...it's kind of on topic - like you just said " if someone has to use any weapon of any kind they are in the wrong".

So what do you do about these kids?

What if you caught them in the act - what do you do?
What if they were attacking your child? What do you do?
What if you're a police officer with a gun? Do you shoot someone who looks like they are about to kill someone?

What about these kids? Can they be rehabilitated? What if money is spent on that, they get out of jail, or juvy or what have you and then they repeat their violent behaviour?

In other words, what do you do to people who don't stop hurting other people?

Do you draw a line somewhere?

You said "if someone has to use any weapon of any kind they are in the wrong" - well your hand can be a weapon as well.

When do you, EOTM, draw the line?

I've already stated where I draw the line in terms of your claim that belting them might fix the problem.

What do I do about these kids? Nothing...they aren't my responsibility but again I can say with a fair amount of certainty that if their parent brought out the belt it wouldn't have changed what happened.

What if I caught them in the act? Stop them and call the cops.

If I'm a cop do I shoot them? No that would be stupid unless of course it's saving a life.

If I see them hurting/killing my kid? I'd probably kill them if given the chance.

Can they be rehabilitated? Sure they could. Will they? How should I know; probably not though because the reality is that good rehabilitation costs money. What if they're put to death and they could have been rehabilitated? What if they are rehabilitated and find Jesus and never commit another crime serving the greater good as best as they can? Do you turn them away from your church?

I don't know what to do to stop people from hurting each other. I can tell you this though...your two initial suggestions don't really work. Lords prayer does nothing....might as well bring back the singing of Oh Canada every morning in school. Corporal punishment has a greater risk to do harm than benefit to do good. In fact the benefit is nearly non existent.

Your last line feels very PSA'ish. (In fact the mental image I got was David Schwimmer in a black turtle neck asking me with a very stern face) When do I draw the line? I don't beat my kid. I try to do more good than bad. I try to teach by showing rather than yelling and hitting. I use education rather than cliches to get my point across. I do the right thing as much as I possibly can so that I get the right results. So the answer to when is as often as I can. I'd love to say I don't get frustrated or angry but I can't say that. I can say that I don't lose my cool very often. I know what hitting teaches, I know what violence teaches and I refuse to teach that or endorse it.
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#81 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 10:14 PM

I think people need to take a good look at how our society is functioning.

Too many heads in the sand.

Too many people thinking that horrible events are just jokes, as long as it didn't happen to them.


While everything you're saying is true don't you think you're maybe being a little dramatic? Society dictates we should follow rules right? How many no trespassing signs have you disregarded? Tsk tsk kids today or just something you did because you wanted to?

These things have gone on for a long time. Longer than you or I have been on this earth. It's unfortunate but just because people aren't rallying to this crusade of yours does not mean every one else has their heads in the sand.

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 24 October 2012 - 10:20 PM.

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#82 Jester@wraiths.ca

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:50 AM

While everything you're saying is true don't you think you're maybe being a little dramatic? Society dictates we should follow rules right? How many no trespassing signs have you disregarded? Tsk tsk kids today or just something you did because you wanted to?

These things have gone on for a long time. Longer than you or I have been on this earth. It's unfortunate but just because people aren't rallying to this crusade of yours does not mean every one else has their heads in the sand.


Trespassing definitely equals killing people.

The truth is, the response is what I expect. The forums are filled with callousness and uncaring, and it doesn't matter what anyone says, that is apparently the acceptable response. Something horrible happens, it's the ultimate opening for jokes. Parasites sit and hope for the chance to mock someones death. Though I sincerely doubt anyone that makes those jokes would do so if it was their own friends or family that had suffered. I guess we've "evolved" to the point that we can't show any compassion whatsoever unless it directly effects us, otherwise it doesn't matter at all.

Edited by Jester@wraiths.ca, 25 October 2012 - 12:53 AM.


#83 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:26 AM

Trespassing definitely equals killing people.

The truth is, the response is what I expect. The forums are filled with callousness and uncaring, and it doesn't matter what anyone says, that is apparently the acceptable response. Something horrible happens, it's the ultimate opening for jokes. Parasites sit and hope for the chance to mock someones death. Though I sincerely doubt anyone that makes those jokes would do so if it was their own friends or family that had suffered. I guess we've "evolved" to the point that we can't show any compassion whatsoever unless it directly effects us, otherwise it doesn't matter at all.

I didn't say trespassing = killing people I simply asked why you do/did it so often when you knew it was against the law. You didn't answer you simply came out with the easiest cliched response you could.

I'm convinced you're one of the callous and uncaring people right now. This is clearly a personal crusade for you and has very little to do with any actual victims. They're just convenient for your soap box. The funny part about it is you're not totally wrong; but I stand by my previous statement.

Most of what you've said is overly dramatic soap opera garbage; but hey you keep on with it because now if you ever get off this soap box you're a hypocrite. Truth is that bad things happen and they happen all the time; no more or less than they always have in general. The other truth is that there are people who really are just awful people and there are people who are completely apathetic to the world around them. In my experience though they are the screaming minority.

Did something happen to you to spark all this?

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 25 October 2012 - 08:27 AM.

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#84 debluvscanucks

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:31 AM

Stefan: DBTR has summed it up quite nicely but I'll add that I did state "Not saying it's the cause/root, but it's just part...". It's likely something very deep rooted that has some decide to kill someone - especially in a pre-meditated attack. My suggestion was that the violent nature of video games, movies, new headlines mean that some are somewhat desensitized to violence and the shock value isn't there when you see/hear about it daily. Most kids have the roots in place to help not act on that but, for some, the foundation just isn't there. Whether it be medically related with an underlying condition or prompted by abuse/negligence, etc. Likely a combination of things that factor in when someone makes the decision to kill someone.

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#85 Down by the River

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:41 AM

Stefan: DBTR has summed it up quite nicely but I'll add that I did state "Not saying it's the cause/root, but it's just part...". It's likely something very deep rooted that has some decide to kill someone - especially in a pre-meditated attack. My suggestion was that the violent nature of video games, movies, new headlines mean that some are somewhat desensitized to violence and the shock value isn't there when you see/hear about it daily. Most kids have the roots in place to help not act on that but, for some, the foundation just isn't there. Whether it be medically related with an underlying condition or prompted by abuse/negligence, etc. Likely a combination of things that factor in when someone makes the decision to kill someone.


I think this is definitely true, to a certain extent at least. When the Luca Mangotta case emerged, a teacher in Canada (cannot remember where) showed the video to his class. This caused quite an uproar in the media and parents were obviously upset. However, when kids from the class were interviewed on TV, none of them indicated they felt any discomfort while watching the video. Maybe they were lying to sound 'cool' to their friends, but maybe it was because they have actually become desensitized to such violence.

OMG we could've had McKeown!

I think Virtanen was a terrible pick given that he's out for 6 months which will hinder his development. You don't pick someone at #6 under that circumstance, along with the fact that he was given a 3/5 IQ (aka he's dumb). 

God dammit Benning. WHY VIRTANEN? Terrible move.

Down by the River - Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young.


#86 unknown33429

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:47 AM

wow.... I wonder what mentality a 15 & 17 year old would have to do this sort of thing... inb4 movies/video games etc.


Nope, movies can desensitize people but can't make them into sociopaths.

I have no idea what causes this sort of thing to become okay to some people, but unfortunately, it's not the first time...

http://en.wikipedia....of_James_Bulger


It doesn't become okay; it's always considered okay by them. Most people like this are just born this way. They just see the world differently than normal people.

Are you CRAZY??? Trade Green for ONE first round pick?? He's restricted after this season.... He WILL get an offer sheet for 7-8 million from a number of teams regardless if he plays another minute for us or not. That offer sheet would be worth 4 first round draft choices.


Some fans overrate their players, and then there is this guy.

#87 D-Money

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:53 AM

I find the whole 'violence in media affecting youth' argument fascinating.

Advertisers spend billions on getting short snippets of messages to change our thinking and habits. They do it because it works. So to say that spending hours being lost in a story of bloodshed and violence, let alone being immersed as a character in a simulation of it, has no effect on our thinking and habits whatsoever seems ludicrous. But on the other hand, most people who watch/play violent media do not seem to lash out at all. So to what degree does it affect us?

Personally, I think violent movies/games has the potential to "plant seeds" in a person's mind. Most people have moral judgment, and need to meet society's expectations (out of personal responsibility, and/or fear of repurcussions). These act as barriers to prevent the "seeds" from taking root and causing the person to recreate versions of them in reality. However, if for some reason those barriers are broken down - because of mental disease, drugs, severe stress, societal collapse, etc...perhaps even a combination of these circumstances - these experiences may cause the person to lash out in strange, and truly horrible ways.

I remember a report of two young men (I believe 18 and 21) in Florida, who decapitated two young children (8 and 10) of the woman one of them was seeing with a kitchen knife. Drugs may have been involved, possibly stress and anger over a situation between the man and the mother, and violence against children is sadly nothing new. But Police in the area said they had never seen anything remotely like this. It was a whole new level of brutality even the most seasoned of them had never encountered. What caused these cretins to carry out such a sick and sadistic act? Only a month or so earlier, the video of the beheading of Daniel Pearl - also by knife - went viral on the internet.

Another more recent phenomenon is the "zombie attacks", which have been attributed to mind-altering drugs (usually bath salts). It seems that once the drug took over, the individuals carried out some strange fantasy buried in their mind. The most likely root of this idea (IMO) was some form of the legion of "flesh-eating zombie" movies/games that have been readily available for decades.

Edited by D-Money, 25 October 2012 - 11:56 AM.

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#88 Heretic

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:19 PM

I've already stated where I draw the line in terms of your claim that belting them might fix the problem.

What do I do about these kids? Nothing...they aren't my responsibility but again I can say with a fair amount of certainty that if their parent brought out the belt it wouldn't have changed what happened.

What if I caught them in the act? Stop them and call the cops.

If I'm a cop do I shoot them? No that would be stupid unless of course it's saving a life.

If I see them hurting/killing my kid? I'd probably kill them if given the chance.

Can they be rehabilitated? Sure they could. Will they? How should I know; probably not though because the reality is that good rehabilitation costs money. What if they're put to death and they could have been rehabilitated? What if they are rehabilitated and find Jesus and never commit another crime serving the greater good as best as they can? Do you turn them away from your church?

I don't know what to do to stop people from hurting each other. I can tell you this though...your two initial suggestions don't really work. Lords prayer does nothing....might as well bring back the singing of Oh Canada every morning in school. Corporal punishment has a greater risk to do harm than benefit to do good. In fact the benefit is nearly non existent.

Your last line feels very PSA'ish. (In fact the mental image I got was David Schwimmer in a black turtle neck asking me with a very stern face) When do I draw the line? I don't beat my kid. I try to do more good than bad. I try to teach by showing rather than yelling and hitting. I use education rather than cliches to get my point across. I do the right thing as much as I possibly can so that I get the right results. So the answer to when is as often as I can. I'd love to say I don't get frustrated or angry but I can't say that. I can say that I don't lose my cool very often. I know what hitting teaches, I know what violence teaches and I refuse to teach that or endorse it.


Thanks - that was very well said and one of the best answers I've seen in a long time.

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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