DarthMelvin Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I feel the people who are supporting the players are blinded by a couple of things 1. Player fan'atics and/or..2. Billionaire envy or hate. This decertification will not pose any threat. As courts that have gone over this with other leagues know that once things are settled the NHLPA will only reunionize...and that it was only a tactic. The NHL is not phased by this rumour. You cannot slow the roll of Bettman haters because they are many. Many that are uninformed and uneducated. The players always speak of the fans, Zzz But the players can sure discount the fans for their criticism For instance...Booth he is a current Canuck....Lets look at his tweet from last years loss....:"so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat"...A jab us fans who critized the team for lack of performance (Me included) But if he would have copied the whole quote he would have included FAIL in there lol "at least he fails while daring greatly" The reason he left that part out because......it WASN'T GREAT lol Players don't care about you.....they get their money from the owners....the less they have to payout in HRR to a player the less the tics would be...the more games you can bring your sons to....The owners need you...they need to fill their arena's....if they have to dish out more to every NHL Player then they have to raise the prices in all aspects of the business. And if you cant understand this....then maybe you are a "Puck Benny" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bookie Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 ...still drooling..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdc Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Pdc, you made multiple excellent points, some of which I referenced earlier (lower players' salaries tanking, poor teams folding, etc.) Certainly, if decertification were carried through it would be a world of bad for both teams and players. Not withstanding my previous statement (the whole world of bad thing), I don't think the players would lose their lawsuits nor do I think the number playing in Europe would have any effect. The owners locked out the players despite year after year after year of record revenues under the system the owners themselves designed and the law very clearly puts the responsibility for ensuring profit on the owners, guaranteeing employees get paid regardless of the health of the company. The players offered to continue playing under the old CBA (which was profitable for many teams, certainly more than not playing) while negotiating on a new one, the owners refused without a single shred of evidence that the players didn't intend to do just that. Any speculation that they would have gone on strike or drug their feet in the negotiations is just that, speculation and can't be used against them. So, the owners locked out players who offered to play, denied them their right to work despite signed contracts due to their own business problems for SOME teams, and have not shown an eagerness to negotiate despite the union offering multiple concessions. I think everyone knows the NHL is playing hard ball, with almost all of their "concessions" simply being reducing their wish list of demands which they purposefully overinflated from their first offer just so they could appear to be "giving" something when in reality they are just demanding slightly fewer new concessions from players. As for players playing in other leagues, that's entirely within their right to do so as it is the owners preventing players from fulfilling their contracts. (Players playing in other leagues during a strike would be an entirely different matter.) Not only is it within their right to do so legally (it's called mitigating your damages), the NHL and KHL, for example, even have a signed agreement between them that deals with just such a situation (that limits locked out NHLers to I believe 65% of their NHL salary while playing in the KHL and I would assume requires they be released by the KHL once the NHL starts working again). Given those facts, I don't see how some of the players playing in other leagues could be used against them. Plus then there's also the fact that some of the multiple lawsuits wouldn't involve any players who did play abroad. Nope, I think you understand perfectly. Like I said, a world of bad for both sides and quite possibly far worse for fans as it would mean no NHL hockey for years, and that's assuming the league survived at all. The sad fact is, however, that at least moving in that direction may be the only power move the union has if the NHL can't show any flexibility or willingness to negotiate. They're already winning just with the lowered players' share and the union's offer to penalize teams signing new back diving contracts. Those are the meat and potatoes of a CBA. Everything else is just dessert, and I for one hope the owners' eyes aren't bigger than their stomachs. Or ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 It's still saddens me that people talk as if Bettman actually has any power at all. It's the owners that are telling him what to do and what they want. The owners run the league and with or without decertification it won't effect the owners as much as the players. The players need to start looking for themselves, and look at their losses and not look at the whole and realize they've already lost more money in these lockouts than they would have if they played. And to remind you. The Owners and Bettman wanted to negotiate all year. Fehr had to wait until the last minutes and this is what happens. You can't win a ego war if you are being stubborn. Players are stupid because there is a better deal for them right now, than "decertification" I'm not siding with anyone, but you'd have to be stupid to think the Owners are willing to change their stance. It will always be that way. If the Players and Union don't want to do anything, then fine. Lets have decertification. Lets see how you will like it, or any fan sees it. This isn't about who should win or who's ego is bigger. It's about the game of hockey itself. You can hate Bettman, Fehr, Both, it doesn't matter. The end result will be bad for hockey. You hate the NHL? You honestly mean that? Your telling me that you don't like hockey? or are you being naive because you want a specific "person"(s) to fail? Players are desperate and Fehr pulls this off, and you can say it with a smile that you support them? What a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizmo2337 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Lets all line up to curse at Bettman because he is in charge because that's the intellectual thing to do. Fehr's history can be ignored. Think of him as a Golden boy, clearly, despite him also creating lockout after lockout and causing chaos in every league he goes to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I rather focus on what has actually happened aside to what Fehrs or the Bettmans have said. People act if what they say actually matter. They can say anything to the media. So, tell me. What has actually happened? in terms of offers? proposals? The NHL has given up a lot more albeit obviously not enough but that's the reality.(We're talking about this lockout). Not the ones in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lui's Knob Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Any way to oust fehr and bring in paul Kelly again??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 The NHLPA numbers were so serious that they they couldn't even do the math in their proposals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauii Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I envy the MLB and their commissioner/system...one day I hope we can receive similar news/results for the NHL: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111122&content_id=26025274&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb There is no need to be greedy and a bully to be a successful organization. It seems with the MLB both parties have a genuine interest in getting the deal done and the show on the road. The negotiations are not hindered by political bs on part of the owners. Rey...try setting up a business and treat your employees like crap, downgrade your product, disregard your consumers, set up shop where there's no traffic or interest in your product and see how far your business will go...which is pretty much the NHL's business model. Does that sound like a smart business plan to you and a franchise you'd want to invest in? It looks like its set up for failure if you ask me or sheer arrogance or ignorance...cant tell but a sure way to destroy the one national sport Canada has loved for eons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6YPE Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 112 pages of supporters of their perspective sides pissing and moaning just like the NHL and the PA, no wonder nothing will ever get done, they arent any different than all of you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remy Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Last page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmployeeoftheMonth Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 112 pages of supporters of their perspective sides pissing and moaning just like the NHL and the PA, no wonder nothing will ever get done, they arent any different than all of you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodCanadianKideh Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 The league should be embarrassed for how it treats it's fans. Start showing AHL games on TV and the NHL can lock out for as long as they like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WiDeN Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Someone call the people that negotiated the cease fire in the Gaza strip. They should be able to get this done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-a-n-u-c-k-s Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I think fans take comfort in focussing on Bettman as the big problem. This lockout has always been about ownership objectives. These guys are all experienced businessmen and if anyone thinks that the Fehr brothers can intimidate them then we will see. Sadly this process could set the NHL back for years. I have said all along that the players approach should have been collegial rather than confrontational. That opportunity seems to be long gone. De-certification will escalate this dispute even further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Bettman becomes hockey’s worst enemy Let’s face the truth, folks: Gary Bettman has become hockey’s worst enemy. Bettman is now the author of three lockouts and the disastrous expansion into the Sun Belt, egomaniac, a man who would rather destroy the National Hockey League than form a workable partnership with the players. Under his watch, the NHL has already lost more games to labour disruptions than the three other major North American team sports combined — with no end in sight. This is why we are staring into the face of a winter without NHL hockey. Because Bettman, a pint-sized Grinch with a pea-sized heart, has no passion for the game. He does not like or respect the players, he has no use for the journalists who cover the game, he doesn’t care a fig for the thousands or tens of thousands of people who have lost their jobs or had their hours reduced because of the Bettman lockout. Above all, Gary Bettman has nothing but contempt for the millions of fans who provide the financial engine that drives the game. Bettman talks about “our wonderful fans” but what he means is “the suckers who keep buying tickets, no matter how badly they are treated.” If Bettman cared, we would not be enduring this completely unnecessary lockout. If he had the same passion for the game that is in the hearts of millions of Canadians, he would not have shut down the league in order to enrich a handful of owners. The last shred of hope we had that Bettman would begin to behave in a rational manner vanished last Wednesday, when the NHL had asked the NHLPA to set down its proposals in writing. Donald Fehr and his staff complied. Within less than an hour, it was clear that the request was nothing but a publicity stunt on Bettman’s part: the NHLPA proposal was shot down like all the rest, and the league faced its version of a nuclear winter. Those of you who think the players are equally to blame simply aren’t paying attention. From the beginning, the players have been giving and giving and giving again in relation to the last CBA while the NHL is “giving” only play money, in relation to the league’s initial offer — which was like something drawn up by a madman. (Yes, that madman.) On top of the huge financial giveback, the league is demanding that players surrender contracting rights it took six decades to win. Bettman likes to cultivate the image of a shrewd, hard-headed businessman, but in truth he’s a blundering fool who will squander tens of millions of dollars out of sheer stubbornness. (See the Phoenix Coyotes). There is no way he will ever get enough out of this lockout to justify the loss of even part of a season, not to mention alienating the broadcasters, sponsors, players, agents and fans. Almost from the beginning of his tenure, Bettman’s alleged goal was for a significant NHL presence on American network television. (That’s what was used to justify the idiotic, headlong expansion into the Sun Belt). So the league finally gets NBC, the Winter Classic and the priceless publicity of HBO’s 24/7 — and then Bettman kicks his broadcast “partners” in the teeth by cancelling all of the league’s most high-profile events except the playoffs, which may be next to go. Smart? Bettman is smart only when it comes to taking care of one Gary Bettman. This lockout is dragging on and on because you have a commissioner and a small clique of owners acting contrary to the interests of millions: of the workers who depend on jobs at the arena or in related industries, the players, the fans. All in the interests of Bettman himself and a handful of owners, like Murray Edwards, Craig Leipold, Ed Snider and Jeremy Jacobs. (Canadiens owner Geoff Molson is not at the table and in any case, if you read between the lines of Molson’s chat with Dave Stubbs, it was pretty clear that Molson is not down with this lockout. He wouldn’t be: he understands and loves the game on every level, as a player, a fan and a team executive. He also understands that the ownership of a team like the Canadiens carries with it a sacred trust.) Unfortunately, Molson is not the commissioner and there are not enough Geoff Molsons in the ownership ranks to fire this bum before he destroys what’s left of the game. Instead, Bettman appears ready to drive this bus off the nearest cliff — and the rest of us, those who really love the game of hockey, are doomed to go along for the ride. Lies, rumours &&&& vicious innuendo: When it comes to damaging a sport, Bettman doesn’t have many rivals. But Jeffrey Loria and David Samson are right up there with him — as their fire sale in Miami confirms. Con a town into building you a stadium, then sell off the team. Beautiful. Sadly, the Marlins sell-off isn’t going to help the Blue Jays, who will still finish well up the track in the American League East. … *Finally decided enough was enough and pulled the plug on TSN in my house. CFL season over, F1 over, and TSN is very short of product. Bob McKenzie is terrific, but between the Jay Onrait/Dan O’Toole gong show and Foghorn Dreghorn endlessly tooting his own horn — there are better ways to waste your day. … *After all he’s done for the Alouettes, Anthony Calvillo should be allowed to retire at a time and in a manner of his choosing. Here’s one simple task for those who are ripping Calvillo: show me the available quarterback who’s going to do a better job. … *On an entirely personal level, I’m hoping that Scott Flory also returns. Guys like Flory and Bryan Chiu made this job easier for everyone. I’m a little surprised that Flory might want another season of banging heads in the trenches — but if he does, more power to him. … *I think the guy is a terrific coach. I’ve never ripped him in print. But somehow, I can’t ask a question that Marc Trestman doesn’t take the wrong way. … *When is someone in New York going to figure out that 1) Rex Ryan can’t coach; 2) Mark Sanchez can’t play quarterback and 3) Tim Tebow was nothing but a cruel publicity stunt on the part of a train-wreck of an organization? … *That’s an interesting commercial LeBron James has, teaching American kids how NOT to speak English. … *I don’t care if he did play for Nebraska. Ndamukong Suh is a dirty player. Heroes: Lionel Messi, Mark Buehrle, Anthony Calvillo, Scott Flory, Brian Bratton, Shea Emry, Chip Cox, Kyries Hebert, Jack Taylor, Sebastian Vettel, Fernando Alonso, Robert Griffin III, Dan Ralph, Steve Milton, CFL reporter-of-the-year Zeke Herbowsky &&&& last but not least, Donald Fehr and the NHLPA. Zeros: Jeffrey Loria, David Samson, Lance Armstrong, LeBron James, Ndamukong Suh, Hope Solo, Jerramy Stevens, Nick Saban, Jim Tressel, Rex Ryan, Mark Sanchez, Jerry Jones, Roger Goodell, Daryl Katz, Murray Edwards, Craig Leipold, Ed Snider, Jeremy Jacobs, Bill Daly, Pierre Gauthier, replay review &&&& last but not least, the worst commissioner in sports, the Littlest Tyrant himself — Gary Bettman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bookie Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Alfredsson Trying to Understand Owners’ Strategy Daniel Alfredsson says he cannot understand what Commissioner Gary Bettman and the N.H.L. owners are trying to accomplish with their lockout. “Last time around we knew what the league wanted — they had to get a cap,” Alfredsson said Saturday night. “This time around I have a hard time seeing what their game plan is.” Alfredsson, speaking in the dressing room after Operation Hat Trick, a charity game in Atlantic City to benefit families affected by Hurricane Sandy, has not been alone in wondering why Bettman and the owners are risking their profitable business by remaining intransigent in negotiations despite the sides being so close on so many key issues. Alfredsson calls that “the frustrating part” of the lockout. He was on the players’ association negotiating committee during the 2004-5 lockout, which resulted in the cancellation of the entire season. But that lockout made sense in that the N.H.L. was losing money and the owners could financially afford to sacrifice a season in an effort to get the players to accept a salary cap. Now, however, the N.H.L. is a $3.3 billion business, and increasingly profitable. Bettman said last week that the lockout was costing the league $18 million to $20 million a day in lost revenue, roughly half of which would have gone to the owners. That comes to about $700 million the owners have lost so far. The lockout has also angered sponsors, with the head of Molson Coors saying the company will seek reimbursement from the N.H.L. Yet Bettman and the owners seem intent on continuing it, even though the two sides are close enough for a quick resolution. They have gotten the players to agree to a 50-50 revenue split, leaving one substantial difference on economics: the owners have offered $211 million in deferred pay to “make whole” existing contracts over five years, while the players have asked for $393 million. That $182 million gap works out to about $1.2 million per team, per year over the proposed five-year deal — or about the cost of a third-line forward. The sides are also split on contract rights, but even those differences seem relatively minor in comparison to what the owners risk by losing a whole season. The owners want to add a year to both the age and the length of service a player must achieve in order to qualify for free agency (28 instead of 27, and eight years’ experience instead of seven). The owners also want to limit contracts to five years, and the players seem willing to accept something closer to seven- or eight-year limit. Yet the owners have not budged on those issues since the initial proposal they made over the summer. “Player contracting rights are vital on the players’ side,” Donald Fehr, the executive director of the players’ association, said Saturday. “So far we don’t have a recognition of that.” Union officials have wondered whether Bettman and the owners have a date in mind at which they will rake in the concessions they have won, compromise on unresolved issues and move to a quick settlement. Perhaps answering Alfredsson’s question as to the owners’ strategy. If there is such a date, it could be Dec. 5, when the N.H.L. Board of Governors convenes in New York for its annual meeting. If the governors inform Bettman then that they want to settle, the season could start within a couple of weeks. Under those circumstances, the hundreds of millions of dollars the owners will have lost would simply be the cost of doing business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMelvin Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Ahhh Poetica...It would be like you to find a journalist that hates owners/ billionaires as you do Jack Todd likes to become the Little engine that could face up the Mighty rich...and use his journalistic talents or lack there of to misinform the public....It was like reading one of your posts. If it were actually bias maybe it would have been a good read... Hope the players CAVE soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bookie Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 The 'Just Go Away Gary' piece is still the #1 read story on Grantland, a website more known for football & basketball journalism than hockey. Not that hard to find anti-Bettman writing these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowest common denominator Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 If it's true that we are going to lose the season over $200mil spread out over 5 yrs, then that is indeed very sad. Players need to cave and work out some kind of strategy to recoup their losses. Would it be possible for them to withhold all non hockey related services? Ie: just play the game. No photo ops, no media interviews, just play the game. No winter classic, no all-star game. Could they not take control (as a group) of their own endorsement and sponsorship deals and earn revenue for themselves that way? Somebody explain to me why that is such a dumb idea, how it will not work and what a doofus I am for even suggesting it. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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