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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread

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ya,,ask Expos fans how well it worked for them.

Many think MLB has never recovered from strike of 1994

Who wants to be like baseball? Some teams with the 200 mill payrolls and some at 50.

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The Make Whole aspect of the CBA is a stumbling block to the process. Its a means to give, then take back and not in the players best interest.

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Hi guys, greetings from a wintry Scotland.

Each day I wake up, have breakfast, feed the dog and then open my laptop and log into this thread in the vain hope of good news.

Yesterday morning, or was it Wednesday (damn the time difference is awkward) I couldn't wait to log in after all the positive vibe from the previous day..........I should have known there was no good news as the Canucks front page was unchanged and I knew any "back to hockey" would have been plastered all over it.

At the time of writing this my soccer team is close to going out of business, players are not being paid, Directors are resigning and fans are taking up collections. Two groups of fans raised £4000 between them to help pay the Under 20 players last months salaries which amount to £10,500/month. The club still couldn't pay them.

There has been all manner of mis-administration at the Club over the past 10 years...........but at the end of the day it is the fans who suffer with the likely loss of their Club. These fans, coming up to Christmas are still digging into their pockets to try and save their football team (soccer) a team started in 1885, a team with a history of European success ............

The reasons for this in my view are the same as the reasons for the NHL lockout. The fans are not empowered and worse still are treated by those who run the game/their Club as cash cows who never learn and are so in love with their game/Club they will accept being treated like idiots and dip into their pockets to shell out no matter how they are treated.

I don't know enough about the ins and outs of the administration of the NHL and the players contracts to comment but one thing is certain there is a solution and there will be a settlement............so why is it taking so long? One reason is obvious. The fans have no say and no power to influence the outcome......OR DO THEY.

If I was a member of an NHL hockey club over there I would be trying to set up a fans committee, a Union if you like and then my first task would be an ultimatum to both sides.

SETTLE BY THE 14TH OR TAKE THE REST OF THE SEASON AND NEXT SEASON, because we wont be turning up, we wont be buying merchandise and we won't be buying cable or anything connected with the NHL.

Pickett the offices of the owners and the homes of the major players. I guarantee this dispute would end in a week.

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All players will lose a year of their contract if the season is cancelled.

The owners aren't going to let their contracts slide until next season.

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If max contract length and % variance is "the hill they will die on", then perhaps the players should give up on that one. Either that, or kick them in the nuts and decertify the union and let them die on that hill.

The players need something else in return, and it should be higher revenue sharing than already proposed. How about 30-40% instead of a meaningless fixed amount? If 90% of the teams are profitable in the next CBA, what more could the owners ask for next time around?

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Yes, but injuries, just like any other workplace, would fall under long term disability. You know, like 60% of your wage, not 100% like these players get with their "guaranteed" salaries...

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The  miserable financial state of the NHL is all on the owner's shoulders. It is they who have dug themselves the financial hole by agreeing and bidding against each other and signed stupid contracts with the players. Where is the logic or confidence for players to sign them when the owners want to claw back in next cba? Bettman, has had 3 stoppages during his tenure. How does that improve the leagues reputation or productivity. He has expanded into markets that cannot sustain a franchise and the increased revenues are pointless if the bottom line has not improved ! This in itelf has put the NHL in a precarious position. Small market teams are more at risk here, moreso than big market and profitable Canadian teams. Bettman has the little man syndrome and leads the NHL to instability and confusion. I hope the union holds firm, its the only way the NHL will look at iself and figure it out. The owners need some controls in place, like length of contracts etc because they are not smart enough to restrain themselves from  offering stupid contracts  without them. Junior hockey is getting my dime and the golf course. Sitting here fuming about the proceedings is not healthy, not going to change the outcome and a waste of energy.

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Yes, but injuries, just like any other workplace, would fall under long term disability. You know, like 60% of your wage, not 100% like these players get with their "guaranteed" salaries...

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It's hard to say from what's being reported versus the actual wordage said in the meetings as to what is going on and who's being unreasonable. I can see the same basic meaning being reported but easily having a different connotation for multiple reports (how was the extra $100M in make whole presented to the players, and what was the actual 'silence' for instance to mean from the player's side when they heard it).

I still feel like the players have been more reasonable for the most part, especially with the NHL pulling deals when they don't get a yes/no answer and the NHLPA wants to negotiate. More importantly, I do feel that if the majority of players wanted to settle, Fehr would present that to the owners. From the other side, I don't feel that if the majority of owners wanted to settle, Bettman would allow that until the major players agreed.

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From reading this thread it seems to me that Jah is one of the few posters who actually gets what's going on. Keep on posting so I have something worth reading Jah :P

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Yeah and the Players and their agents are all so innocent and have nothing to do with a market team trying to stay competative...maybe this is one of the reason for the lockout and why the players are neglecting to sign a CBA...lol educate yourself.

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From reading this thread it seems to me that Jah is one of the few posters who actually gets what's going on. Keep on posting so I have something worth reading Jah :P

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If the players weren't greedy, they would forget about the make whole aspect in order to get better contracting rights and maybe a shorter CBA.

At this rate they're going to lose at least one year of their contracts anyways. Why not just take a pay cut in order to get a better deal for the union. They're gonna lose that money anyways...

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PLAYERS SHOW FRUSTRATION WITH BREAKDOWN IN NHL LABOUR TALKS

A day after the National Hockey League broke off collective bargaining talks with the NHL Players' Association on Thursday night, locked out NHL players took to Twitter and other media sources to express their frustration.

"It really seems that since the start of the lockout and negotiation that the partnership we had talked about coming out of the last lockout has really been thrown aside," Montreal Canadiens forward Erik Cole told The Montreal Gazette. "We're here to grow the game of hockey and what they're doing with this lockout is doing anything but grow the game.

"If you want to know when this lockout will end, only (the owners) know."

Fellow Canadiens player Brandon Prust tweeted his reaction to the recent turn of events. "I'm done caring," he wrote. "We keep moving and giving...This 1 way street sucks."

Florida Panthers forward Scottie Upshall tweeted that the recent setback in negotiations has only solidified the players' resolve, saying, "Plain and simple these owners think they can break us apart. GOOD LUCK! We r stronger than we've ever been and r behind Fehr %100.

"There's no pressure yet on the owners to lose this year, that's why they still treat us like Cattle. They'll need a partner come January."

San Jose Sharks forward Logan Couture also voiced his support for union head Don Fehr.

"100 percent in agreement with our @nhlpa leader for all of (sic) you asking," he said.

Washington Capitals forward Jason Chimera is discouraged that talks broke down with a possible deal in the offing. "It's pretty disappointing for hockey in general," said Chimera. "To be that close and just stop talking is absurd."

The work stoppage, which began Sept. 16, has already forced the cancellation of regular season games through Dec. 14, as well as the Winter Classic and All-Star Weekend.

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I agree but they will argue injuries are why they want the guaranteed contract. Otherwise they will not put themselves in danger to make plays and the game would suffer.

It's a bunch of BS from guys who have never had to actually work a real job. Just like spoiled rich kids, they're everywhere.

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The irony in you telling someone else to educate themselves it that you yourself isnt educated. The NHL keeps wanting more and more and more. The players last time go tthe worst possible deal imaginable and were able to make more money because of 2 dumb mistakes by the NHL

1) The NHL set a soft cap where it would be tied directly to the amount of revenue made by the league

2) They did not account for backloaded deals

This is all on the NHL. They broke the union apart and got everything they wanted. The problem this time around is the NHLPA is saying screw you guys, we are not going to listen every demand of yours rather we are going to make sure we get a deal that makes sense for us and gives us as much advantage as we can possibly attain. Do you blame the PA for this mentality? As a fan it sucks buty objectively from a business perspective I really can not blame them.

They are doing what is in there best interest just as the owners do what is in there best interest.

As Paul Bisonnette said it best when the lockout originally started "it isnt about the fans".

The problem is too many fans are way to naive and immature to recognize the fact it isnt about them. This is a business deal involving  a business and the union that represents its employees. The employees are trying to take a stand and rightfully so considering all that happend last time

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And you missed the part where Bettman himself stated that he made a mistake...thus he is trying to fix it. Players love it but the owners want it changed...lol nice try though

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This is from a blogger on hockeybuzz(Paul McCann),,,may not like ek but it pretty much sums up how I feel,,,

"I have to admit. I bought into the optimism, I bought in to the momentum. Now I look at the wreckage from last night and wonder why. Especially when I start hearing how and why this whole thing blew apart.

Let me start by saying, I have tried my best to keep to the middle here. As someone that walks in the business world, I understand the owners side in this dispute… as someone that also walks in the entertainment world the players points in this make sense as well. What follows is not a rip on the players, I know that the players want what’s best for the game, the problem is, they are being led by a person that had to “learn the game” and while he may have learned it... he doesn't understand it. This mess… this I lay at the feet of one person.

Donald Fehr.

Donald Fehr ruined one sport that I used to be incredibly passionate about. He can claim the Marvin Miller mantel… but this man is no Martin Miller, never has been, never will be. When the MLBPA struck, causing the loss of the World Series in ’94, I was basically done as a baseball fan. It was the end of season strike trying to use the Series as a bargaining chip. That’s why it is incredibly disingenuous to lay the lockout off solely on the owners. History shows that, if the NHL started the season without a CBA, you could’ve counted on a strike in March to put the playoffs at risk. I know that as well as I know my own name.

What crystallized all of this in my mind was a tweet from respected hockey writer, Adrian Dater. Now, if you have been following Adrian on Twitter… he is absolutely not a shill for either side of this dispute. He has been critical of both sides and is a highly respected journalist. If anything, he has been more supportive of the players side.

His tweet from last night…

From deep inside players side: "We were ready to play again. But Don came in (Wed.) and told us we could get more and to hold out"

“We could get more and to hold out” Unbe-frickin’-lievable.

Dater’s take on this is that there is a split developing in the player's ranks, he characterized the player who made the comment he tweeted out last night as a “depth player.” The other key piece of the information Adrian sent out was that “top players still in Fehr camp.” This does make a little sense, considering that the PA is fighting hard for something that doesn’t happen very often… the beyond five year contract. Who gets those contracts? It certainly isn’t the “depth player.” Adrian wrote a great blog on this, here's the link.

The reality is this, Donald Fehr’s membership did an incredible job in doing his job, creating the bridge, opening the communication and moving the process along. Does anyone else find it interesting that as soon as Fehr came back into the room (upon his insistence)the process blew apart?

The attitude of “we could get more” is the biggest problem on both sides of this issue. The constantly shifting priorities (if true) put forth by the NHLPA is designed to drive frustration and is not bargaining in good faith. Did anyone else hear how important pensions were prior to Wednesday? Yeah, me neither. "We could get more" by losing more games and more time and more pay... flat out silly.

The “Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm” appearance in Donald Fehr’s first press conference last night was cold, calculated, manipulative and disgusting. It was also a stupid move on his part. Further proof in my mind that Donald Fehr doesn’t give a (expletive) about the game that we love. At least NHL commissioner Gary Bettman showed some emotion, some passion about our game in his press conference last night… and by the way, for those haters, Bettman understood that he needed to stay out of the room in order to get a deal, Fehr hasn’t learned that lesson yet.

The players want to play, that is undeniable. The owners want to get games on the ice that is also undeniable. The only one who doesn’t want a deal here seems to be Donald Fehr, and he continues to play upon the emotions of his charges. He plays the “owners don’t respect you” card with skill and relish. Fehr understands the mindset of the athlete and is now playing on it for all it is worth. I can imagine Fehr doing his best Reg Dunlap impersonation in a PA conference call… “those owners challenged the Cheifs… errrr… union!” The only problem with this strategy now is that it is exposed. Donald Fehr has now pissed off the moderate owners in this league. How does that help the players get more?

The endgame is now solidly underway. I know that... The shills are out in force on Twitter, blathering on depending on their agenda, casting blame depending on their bias but one thing is true. This is all part of the dirty little game being played out in front of TSN’s cameras, all part of the filthy underside of business negotiations. This process does undermine the fan’s belief and passion for the league, a necessary evil that should never have gotten to this point.

We like the sausage, we just don’t like seeing it made."

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Bettman said that in 04 as well about prior CBA negotiations. As Dan Russel said it best, at what point do we stop trusting Bettman? He consistently tells the players he needs this to fix the game and that to fix the game yet it never ends.

Your argument is so absurd it is unfathomable

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