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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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Ahh good thing, we aren't that far apart.

Breaking off talks or not co-operating (atleast in meeting with the other side) at this point would only show that someone has a different agenda rather than getting the game on the ice.

This shouldn't take long at all, let's park our egos and battle axes at the door and go in and hammer this out.

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Best article I've read on the lockout so far, from Charles Pierce:

Go to the Mattresses

Don't blame the NHL lockout mess on Donald Fehr, who has always been a fighter

By Charles P. Pierce on December 11, 2012

It has not been a good couple of weeks for the exercise in performance art that is the National Hockey League lockout. Reality keeps wandering out onto the stage, kicking over the carefully arranged props and creating great disorder in the artfully arranged rationale for the whole burlesque. First, there came that noted socialist handbill,Forbes Magazine, which explained that the average franchise in this terribly distraught league is worth a mere $282 million, and that the Toronto Maple Leafs, who haven't won a Stanley Cup since Neil Young's dad was writing columns about them, are valued at a cool billion. The five least-valued franchises are still worth, on average, $145 million. (It can be argued, and Forbes does, that the worst day in NHL history was the day the league discovered the American South.) Then, in Detroit, the owner of the Red Wings, a pizza billionaire named Mike Ilitch, has decided to blackjack a new $650 million arena out of the city of Detroit for his $346 million hockey team. (In 1982, Ilitch paid $8 million for the team. This is an appreciation that one can, well, appreciate.) This naked swindle makes Ilitch a real sweetheart, seeing as how the financing for his new digs is going to come from tax dollars collected by Detroit's Downtown Development Authority, which, for more than 20 years, has been collecting money to pay down some general obligation bonds. Now that the bonds are paid off, the money was supposed to go to Detroit's decimated public-school system. Instead, it's going into Ilitch's arena.

Then, of course, there was the monumental fiasco last week, when it appeared that a deal to end the lockout was nigh, but then it wasn't, because the players had the audacity to come back with a counterproposal, severely wounding the fee-fees of Ilitch and his fellow owners, and especially those of season-killing commissioner Gary Bettman. This prompted the most hilarious piece of impromptu theater yet, when Bill Daly, the NHL's deputy commissioner in charge of coat-holding, declared that a five-year limit on contracts was "the hill we will die on."

Of course, Daly was hoping that people wouldn't notice that the NHL already has built a lovely Tudor-style manse on that hill, with an Olympic-size pool and a five-car garage. For example, the Minnesota Wild celebrated the Fourth of July last summer by signing Zach Parise to a 13-year deal. Suddenly, five years is Cemetery Ridge? The owners, who got practically everything they wanted the last time they blew off a season, once again are asking the players to bail them out because (a) they were stupid in the way they sited their franchises, and ( B) some of them were stupid enough to offer deals so long that the contracts will reach puberty before they expire. If part of the strategy was convincing the world that the NHL management's side was not made up entirely of greedy morons, this past fortnight has not been a ringing endorsement of that proposition.

But, luckily, there was a villain to be fashioned to satisfy all the groundlings in Boston, and New York, and Edmonton, and Montreal, and to keep the show going through the next few weeks. It's time, once again, to blame Donald Fehr for everything.

Fehr, the National Hockey League Players' Association executive director, has had a large neon bull's-eye painted on his back ever since he succeeded the legendary Marvin Miller as head of the Major League Baseball Players Association. Baseball's owners, who had spent 20 years getting outmaneuvered, out-lawyered, punked, and otherwise beaten like tin drums by Miller, decided to take it out on his successor. Moreover, Fehr never had Miller's gifts for spin and public relations, so, if you happened to be a grizzled old scribe yearning for the days of the reserve clause, Fehr was easy pickings; if you were a grizzled young scribe trolling for a lazy "both sides are at fault" column, Fehr was not as good as Miller was at defending himself.

Nonetheless, Fehr was very good at protecting the gains that the MLBPA had made against almost constant attempts to roll them back. At the same time, he found himself doing so in a general social and cultural context in which seeing a union behave like an actual union was supposed to behave struck everyone silly with shock and wonder. Hell, after a while, most of the people following sports hadn't even been around when unions actually held substantial political power. Most of the NHL owners had become rich in the modern plutocratic system. In that system, the power of unions had been broken. Consequently, they were neither prepared, nor predisposed, to reckon with actual unions that had actual power, such as the ones that were operating among the teams they'd bought with their fortunes. (Mike Ilitch got rich in an industry that isn't unionized at all.) And most of the people covering the events in question were people who'd seen their unions squeezed dry by the financial-services cowboys who increasingly controlled the American media. Small wonder, then, that, when Fehr resisted mandatory drug testing at the beginning of the current drug frenzy, people behaved as though he were lining up players to personally shoot HGH into their keisters.

Just to answer this criticism briefly, because it seems to come up every time Fehr's name gets mentioned these days (it even came up in some of Marvin Miller's obits last month):

The union was under no obligation to bargain away its membership's Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights to a management side that had not bargained in good faith on any issue going back to the collusion scam of the mid-1980s. (Remember that first round of steroid testing, in which the names were supposed to be forever secret? How'd that promise of anonymity work out?) And, before anyone mentions it, no, it doesn't matter how many players said they were willing to toss those rights overboard. You can't give my civil liberties away. Not without a fight, anyway, and a fight is all Fehr ever gave them.

So, when the NHL players turned to him, everyone on both sides knew they were hiring a wartime consigliere. The players came out of the last lockout with such impeccably clean clocks that it's a wonder they didn't hire someone with an RPG launcher this time around. Fehr's hiring should have come as a surprise to approximately nobody, since a lockout is always a deliberate tactic by management aimed at achieving a precise goal — in this case, clawing back what little was left after the last time Bettman fastened on this strategy. Nobody is ever forced into a lockout. Lockouts require planning in advance. A lockout is a strategy you choose. A lockout always has a specific purpose, which is what makes lockouts unlike strikes. There is no such thing as a "wildcat" lockout.

Fehr is someone who realizes this, and, from the start, it has been part of management's strategy to isolate Fehr from the people who hired him. This should have been easier than it has been, since the hockey culture has always been more insular than that of baseball. (In fact, the sorry history of labor-management relations in the NHL is marked most vividly by the involvement of Alan Eagleson, who was such a crook that the United States and Canada once appeared to be fighting over who got to incarcerate him first.) A tweet from Chris Johnston of the Canadian Press on Sunday stated flatly that the players have been told that Fehr's mere presence in the room is "potentially a deal-breaker." This is both extraordinarily arrogant and extraordinarily clumsy.

So far the strategy has failed, though there have been voices like Mark Recchi's, who advised the players to realize that the owners held the hammer and that surrender was the only option. Of course, there are no professional athletes who understand what a lockout really is better than NHL players do, since most of them now have lived through three of them.

Fehr is presently taking heat for having called a press conference the other day to announce that a deal was close, only to have it collapse around him when management walked away, mumbling about dying on hills and such. It is possible that Fehr was precipitous in his announcement, and that he carries some weight for the disappointment that hockey fans felt when everything fell through. But the facts seem to indicate that a deal was fairly close, certainly closer than it had been. However, merely presenting management with a perfectly banal counteroffer suddenly blew everything up, and Fehr was in public, looking as though his premature announcement somehow had bollixed everything up. I refuse to believe that this was any kind of accident.

(This is what the inexcusable Bettman said when all the dust had settled: "Spinning us all into an emotional frenzy over maybe we are close and we are going to play hockey tomorrow is terribly unfair to our fans, is unfair to this process." So says the man who so cares about "our fans" that he is willing to jettison a second full season in a decade just to pick off what meat is left on the carcass. This man must live in a house without mirrors.)

It always has seemed to me that, decades ago, Donald Fehr made his peace with being a lightning rod. He never was going to be larger than life, the way Miller was. He never was going to be able to create his own legend, either. For his entire career, he has been the caretaker of other people's victories, the guardian of other people's triumphs. For his entire career, he has been the repository of all the bitterness from all the people who lost in those same events. There is something to be said for all of that.

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The union has no CBA and therefore no power. The owners wont let them play without a CBA. They have had 2 years to negotiate a new CBA while playing under the old one. They did not get it done.

And in the end, the problem is that the players think they are entitled to the NHL and its profit . Without a CBA, they are entitled to NOTHING. In fact, they dont even work in the NHL anymore. Fehr is not a hockey guy. He has his own reputation to uphold so he is not going to sign a mediocre contract that they could have signed 2 years ago. He was brought in to intimidate the owners.

The owners would rather lose money than have an outsider tell them how to run their own business, and as a small business owner, I dont blame them.

You guys only see this thing through the prism of what you want to believe.

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Here is another really good article from Puck daddy.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--no-excuses--there-s-a-deal-to-be-done--and-it-s-time-for-nhl-and-nhlpa-to-do-it-221220355.html;_ylt=AkJbL76Vlp5iZzstNOZzRBd7vLYF;_ylu=X3oDMTRsNTgzdWs2BG1pdANMSVNUUyBNaXhlZCBMaXN0cyBOSEwgRXhwZXJ0cwRwa2cDN2NmYTI3YTQtMjRiZS0zMGU1LWFiNTctOWZkOGY0MjRjZTJmBHBvcwMxBHNlYwNNZWRpYUJMaXN0TWl4ZWRMUENBVGVtcAR2ZXIDZjA3MzAwMjItNDNlMC0xMWUyLTlhYzQtMTVmNjJmMWE2YThl;_ylg=X3oDMTFoYWo1YzR1BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANuaGwEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnM-;_ylv=3

Cover your ears, and open your eyes. Don't listen to the hope or the gloom or the he-said, she-said sniping. Look at what is on the table – or at least was on the table, before the NHL pulled its latest offer in a fit of anger and theater last week. Ignore the spin, and look at the facts.

f12d7a29669af922220f6a706700b536_original.jpgThe NHL needs to put its last CBA proposal back on the table. (AP)What do you see?

I see a deal, or at least a path to one. I see a negotiation that should be in its final stages when the NHL and the NHL Players' Association resume talks Wednesday, with federal mediators rejoining the process. I see no excuse – none, nada, zero, zilch – for the season to be canceled. I see no hills on which to die here, not anymore, only the point of diminishing returns.

Is there any battle left to be won that is worth the sacrifice of the season? Of course not.

Which is why some teams are quietly telling staffers to get ready. Which is why more players are popping up at practice rinks. They say it means nothing, and technically that's true: Only the tight inner circles on each side really know the next moves. No one wants to seem too eager and project weakness, either. But whether it's optimism or just-in-case preparation or educated guessing, this is not just wishful thinking. It better not be wishful thinking.

The sides aren't as close as NHLPA executive director Don Fehr made them seem last week. But they aren't as far apart as NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and deputy commissioner Bill Daly made them seem. At this point, if the deal doesn't get done, if the lockout doesn't end by mid-January at the latest, it won't be because of principles or economics. It will be because the leadership (bleeped) it up.

There has been too much time spent – no, time wasted – on the personalities and politics. You know what? Both sides shift their priorities. Both move their targets. Both pocket one thing and ask for more. Both try to discredit the other. Both use slick tricks. They just do it at different times, in different degrees, in different ways. This is bare-knuckles stuff with big-money stakes.

And yeah, that has led to a lot of disrespect and downright hatred, and that has had a tangible effect. It will continue to have a tangible effect if the NHL doesn't put its last offer back on the table – or if it puts only some of it back on the table, driving the sides farther apart.

But that's why it makes sense to bring back the mediators now. Even though mediation failed two weeks ago, even though everything blew up last week, the sides are closer now than they were before. They are close enough to finish this.

Maybe with the help of a third-party perspective, they can put pride aside, keep things quiet and focus on the issues themselves. Maybe with a smaller group, there will be less miscommunication. Maybe they can admit what should be obvious:

– They aren't as close as Fehr made them seem: Many owners think the players shouldn't receive 50 percent of hockey-related revenue, even though the players made 57 percent before. More owners think the players shouldn't receive 50 percent plus $300 million in "make-whole" or transition payments. Suggest adding additional money outside the system via compliance buyouts or a cap on escrow, and there is going to be pushback.

owners-players-meet-discuss-nhl-20121205-223616-912.jpgThe NHLPA can't risk pushing the league too far as the two sides close in on an agreement. (Getty)Bettman and Daly have bluffed before. They have made their best offers, only to make them better, multiple times. But at some point, they might not be bluffing anymore and their offers really might get worse. "Close" is subjective. "Close" takes two. If the owners pull back, then what?

There is also a ton of fine print to write. Just two examples: As far as the NHL knows, the NHLPA is still proposing a minimum salary cap of $67.25 million. The NHLPA is still proposing the cap and floor be plus and minus 20 percent of the midpoint, widening the salary range. The league wants the cap to be set at $60 million for two years, then to reflect what it feels is a true 50-50 split. It wants the cap and floor set at a smaller percentage of the midpoint, so the salary range stays tight – so the rich cannot outspend the poor too much while the poor don't have to keep up with the rich.

In short, there is still a lot of haggling to be done.

– They aren't as far apart as Bettman and Daly made them seem: The owners have already won the biggest prize. Not only have they gotten the players to stay within the salary-cap system, they have gotten them to drop their demand for guaranteed shares and accept 50 percent of HRR. They got them to agree to a make-whole/transition amount. So if the owners put that $300 million back on the table, the major money issue is solved.

Now we're down to how the money is allocated among the players. The dynamics are complicated, not simple, and no one can predict exactly how the system will work and evolve. But no matter what the GMs and agents do in the future, the owners are protected. They will never pay the players more than 50 percent of HRR after a transition period. And no matter how this negotiation ends up, the system will be more restrictive anyway.

The owners have gotten the players to accept maximum contract lengths and flatter structures, and there isn't much difference between proposals, especially relative to where they were before. The owners want contracts limited to five years but will go as long as seven for teams to re-sign their own players; the players are at eight years. The owners want salaries to vary by no more than five percent year to year; the players want the lowest year to be within 25 percent of the highest year.

If the point is to keep long-term liabilities off the books and stop back-diving, cap-circumventing contracts, mission accomplished, either way or anywhere in between. If the point is to stop giving too much to the wrong guys … well, that's mission impossible. There will be human error in any system. But at worst, mistakes will be able to haunt only so long. There won't be another Rick DiPietro deal.

As for the length of the CBA, the owners have gotten the players to go long. While the league proposed 10 years with an opt-out after eight last week, the players proposed eight years with an opt-out after six – when the league had been at six or seven years and the players five.

In short, what are they fighting about again?

– Enough is enough: Look at the big picture. Under the old collective bargaining agreement, there was financial imbalance – with the top teams thriving and others struggling – amid perhaps the best competitive balance in sports.

Now look at the situation. Under this CBA – no matter whose proposal you choose as is, if the NHL's last one is still valid – the owners and players will split HRR 50-50 after transition, as the owners targeted from the start, and the system will be more restrictive.

Shouldn't the league be healthy financially? Shouldn't the competitive balance be as good or better? Wasn't that the goal?

It's time to iron out the details and get it done. There is little left to gain for anyone but a lot left to lose for everyone. Close your ears, open your eyes and keep your eye on the ball – or the puck, if you can still find it.

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And last week the players asked that the mediators be brought back in so they could try to get a deal done. The owners refused.

BTW, I'm wondering when you're going to change your signature. That awesome pic of Kes doesn't seem to fit in with your philosophy. Maybe this one would be more to your liking:

jacobsthing.jpg

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They had mediators the week before and it went nowhere. You cannot understand both sides of the argument. You are completely stuck into the limited knowledge you have because of your limited life experiences.

Case in point of your childish photograph above. You actually put effort into finding this and putting it up. Loser.I am afraid of nothing. I dont need 15 cronies with their stupid internet IDs . I dont get bullied

You can do this all night if you want. I am going to move on to something thats actually important.

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I also agree. There is nothing more that I want then to both sides to sign a deal but its so difficult when you have been at war so long you dont know how to do anything else.

Its like a couple that has been fighting so long , it doesnt know when to end because its all it has left.

I hope they can come to an agreement. I like your optimism. I wish I was.

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You are 32 now. Thirty two. Perhaps its time to get off the computer and try to make a life for yourself outside here. This place was not designed for kids your age.

It was designed for teenagers who live with their parents, old folks who are retired, and guys like myself who are far away and is the only way to stay in contact with fellow canucks fans.

You should have been out for the last several years having fun with friends and building relationships instead of making internet friends on a hockey blog. i wish you would listen to me but you wont. And you will pay the price for it.

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Here is the article in its entirety from NHL.com

The National Hockey League and the National Hockey League Players' Association have agreed to get back to the bargaining table Wednesday and will be joined by federal mediators, according to NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly.

The meeting will be held at an undisclosed location.

Daly said that the session Wednesday will involve federal mediators and will not be held in New York City.

The NHL and NHLPA met with mediators from the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Services on Nov. 28 and 29, but those meetings broke off without any progress being made.

The NHL and NHLPA have been without a CBA since Sept. 16. Games have been cancelled through Dec. 30, along with the 2013 Bridgestone NHL Winter Classic and the 2013 NHL All-Star Game.

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They had mediators the week before and it went nowhere. You cannot understand both sides of the argument. You are completely stuck into the limited knowledge you have because of your limited life experiences.

Case in point of your childish photograph above. You actually put effort into finding this and putting it up. Loser.I am afraid of nothing. I dont need 15 cronies with their stupid internet IDs . I dont get bullied

You can do this all night if you want. I am going to move on to something thats actually important.

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