*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread

[Raoul Duke]

Oh man, was so awesome today on the Lockout update, they showed Bettman coming up an escalator! Then I saw Doan and I think maybe Sid going through one of those fancy revolving doors at the hotel lobby!! Was CRAAAAZY!!!

[Edler's Mind Tricks]

At this pace, this thread will have more posts than the 'Count to 100,000' thread before this mess gets resolved.

[Boudrias]

^^ All of the theatrics going on right now is all for show. They have to keep the fans interested until they're ready to make a deal. Because there would be nothing worse than if people stopped talking about hockey.

So all this over the top dramatic outbursts and one liners are nothing more than a sell job by the NHL to try and stay in the media.

I've said from day 1 that this is a planned lockout. The NHL always planned on missing at least half a season, despite what they say. They had a game plan and a deal date in mind when they started out. That's why when they are ready to make a deal, I think it will come together very quickly, and just in time for when they wanna start, which is looking like January 1st.

[Boudrias]

It's nice to see the odd Republican speak out against 'Reaganomics' - or the art of transferring public money into private corporate hands.

I remember Burke lobbying for similar tax breaks in Canada (when he was the Canucks GM), feeling that the teams up here were at a financial competitive disadvantage.

I always find it particulary perplexing when conservative types ride these kinds of contradictions. Would have much preferred to hear him telling States to cut that out as opposed to hoping to see Canada parrot that. I see the "teams are losing money" claims in a similar light.

I've always liked a lot of things about Brian Burke, but that was disappointing and one of the few things he did while representing the Canucks that left a bad taste - considering all the ideology targetting people who are dependent upon 'government' handouts, you'd think it might be below the dignity of these proud billionaires to be commanding these subsidies.

And it's lways sad to let politics creep into sports. Hearing that the NHL hired a Republican PR firm also disappointing (which is not to say I'd prefer they went Democratic, but to say I'd prefer they simply spared us the spin). I come to sports hoping to find a context that is relativel politics-free, where the point of the abstractions are to create fairness, competition makes people better, and the playing field is as level as possible. These lockouts and public politicking just muddy things up for the game - just comes accross as pure fail - and such an odd set of contradictions...

Professional sports, in a capitalist economy, 'needing' 'welfare' to 'compete'...

And it's the spoiled players who are expecting too much?

[gizmo2337]

Agreed on the whole post and I liked the point about how many years cap hit is above or below salary in the actual contract. That was something I didn't really look at when I did my contract comparisons a few pages back using a 5% variance. You've summed up the points I might have made to gizmo's interesting post.

[Dogbyte]

So your rationale is that it was planned all along? In what sense? How about that the owner have a bottom line (right or wrong) and they are not prepared to move off it. Possibly planned in the sense that they knew a new PA head, Don Fehr, would try and craft a beneficial deal for the players.

Yesterday I suspect that Fehr floated a few ideas out to the mediators to see what the NHL would do. Bettman did not bite so Fehr has to reassess. IMO the PA has to move to the NHL's last proposal. The PA has succeeded in establishing the willingness to sit out and that probably helps them in the next CBA. I do not see a 'revelation' from the NHL which leds to a deal based on a concession from their established position. That position has been communicated by Bettman and Daley and again by a panel dominated by 'doves' from ownership.

The question is whether either side is prepared to write off the year. I suspect ownership is. I also think they will set a 'drop dead' date for the season before Christmas. As much as fans dwell on Don Fehr's creditentials (substantial) they should also look at the legal firm hired by the NHL. I find it bizarre that the focus of this dispute by many stays with Bettman and Fehr, especially Bettman. If the player/ownership meetings did not convince people that ownership had a clear bottom line then losing a season probably becomes a reality. If so what next? Going into next October do we take bets on whether a deal is signed by December 2013?

At what point does the money lost in this dispute become an 'investment' in whatever position is eventually agreed to? Players do not have the latititude that ownership has. I really question any player who says he is doing this for those that follow. When your career might only last 4 - 5 years that is pretty magnanimous. It speaks to the fundamental weakness of the PA's negociating power.

[ThaBestPlaceOnEarth]

So apparently I can't get back the money I put down on tickets, even though the games are officially cancelled now? Unless they cancel the entire season, or reach a deal and reschedule, they don't have to refund my money? I could sure use that money for Christmas-time, and I probably won't be able to go to any re-scheduled game anyways cause I specifically set those game-days aside ahead of time...NHL is screwing the fans once again. If you're not gonna play, at least give me back my money!

[Shift-4]

Oh man, was so awesome today on the Lockout update, they showed Bettman coming up an escalator!

[oldnews]

Your position seems somewhat amusing. The Americans just finished an election where the people chose a government that is spending beyond their ability to pay. They could tax ALL the profits of corporate America and still not pay for their debt. In Canada we have higher personal debt than the Americans do! Left or Right makes no difference people usually get governments they deserve. How many people actually realize that they pay for government deficit spending through taxes to pay the servicing of that debt and the on going devaluation of their savings?

I did not realize that only NHL owners were on welfare in this country. I guess they must have been educated in the same schools as everyone else in this country.

[theminister]

Your position seems somewhat amusing. The Americans just finished an election where the people chose a government that is spending beyond their ability to pay. They could tax ALL the profits of corporate America and still not pay for their debt. In Canada we have higher personal debt than the Americans do! Left or Right makes no difference people usually get governments they deserve. How many people actually realize that they pay for government deficit spending through taxes to pay the servicing of that debt and the on going devaluation of their savings?

I did not realize that only NHL owners were on welfare in this country. I guess they must have been educated in the same schools as everyone else in this country.

[Li'l Fra]

Oh, man. Just look at this thread.

Do we need our hockey back or what?

Great read, gentlemen.

[Drive-By Body Pierce]

Nick Kypreos @RealKyper 28m

Elliotte. On my way!! RT "@FriedgeHNIC: Hotel next to meetings site is setting up a vodka bar. Suddenly, I see a solution to the lockout."

[UFCanuck]

It's Alexander Mogilny day of the lockout.

[DeNiro]

So the mediators will determine today if the two sides are close enough to warrant another meeting this week.

I guess we'll find out if Fehr was accurate in saying that the two sides were close to a deal.

[Dogbyte]

It's Alexander Mogilny day of the lockout.

[The Bookie]

Compliance buyouts surface as key issue

On the surface, it looks like the most bizarre point of contention currently prolonging the NHL lockout: Players fighting to give owners the right to buy them out once a new collective bargaining agreement is signed.

However, there is good reason behind the fight.

In addition to the added flexibility the NHL Players’ Association feels compliance (or amnesty) buyouts will bring to the hard cap system — something the NHL is looking to tighten — is the fact that the only other time in league history they were offered buyouts, the players didn’t make out too badly.

Fourteen men had their contract terminated for two-thirds of its remaining value during the 10-day buyout window that opened after the last CBA was signed in July 2005. Of that group, only two saw their NHL career end immediately because of it.

The rest, including well-compensated Rangers centre Bobby Holik, found work elsewhere and didn’t end up taking much — or any — financial hit as a result.

“It kind of worked out,” Holik told The Canadian Press in September. “It was not a priority, but between the buyout and the [free-agent] contract from Atlanta it all worked out. The way my contract was structured, I don’t think I lost anything even because of the lockout.”

It’s interesting that the topic of one-time compliance buyouts only made its way into the current negotiations last week, when the NHL and NHLPA started getting closer to a deal. Ultimately, it may end up being the final significant hurdle to cross before a new CBA is signed.

Of the three remaining issues deputy commissioner Bill Daly recently identified, transition rules are the only one where the sides are diametrically opposed. The NHLPA has accepted term limits on contracts but hasn’t yet come as far as the NHL would like. Similarly, the sides remain separated by two years on the proposed length of the CBA.

As for transition, the NHL has offered one season with a salary cap of US$70.2 million before reverting to one based on a 50-50 split of revenues, which would likely see it drop by about US$10-million the following year.

If no special transition rules end up making their way into the new CBA, a number of teams would be forced to get creative with their rosters. For example, the Philadelphia Flyers already have US$57.4-million in cap space committed to 16 players for 2013-14, according to capgeek.com.

And they are far from alone.

Should they end up being allowed, the most likely candidates for compliance buyouts would be highly paid veterans like 35-year-old defenceman Wade Redden, who earned US$6.5-million last season while playing on the New York Rangers’ AHL team. Only two of the 14 players bought out in July 2005 were under the age of 30 and nine of them were scheduled to earn more than US$2.5-million.

The Detroit Red Wings used the amnesty to rid themselves of three players, the Columbus Blue Jackets and Dallas Stars each shed two players and the Philadelphia Flyers bid adieu to popular veterans John LeClair and Tony Amonte.

“It’s not based on their play, it’s based on the economics,” Ken Hitchcock, then the Flyers coach, said of the decision.

Even from an individual perspective, a buyout is not always a bad thing.

Ray Whitney was a 33-year-old set to earn US$2.66-million when the Red Wings cut him loose just days after the last lockout ended. Not only did he win a Stanley Cup in Carolina the following season, Whitney is still going strong at age 40 and signed a US$9-million, two-year contract with Dallas over the summer.

[John.Tallhouse]

JohnLuTSNMtl: #NHLPA 's Steve Fehr hasn't ruled out the possibility of talks Friday, but whether it will be by phone or face to face is undetermined.

[elvis15]

Yes, I agree on these points as well, and surely teams would just sign the same number over the course of contract in most cases (aka Iginla style). I wasn't meaning that I was supporting the idea of 5 year limit 5% variance and 5 UFA, just pondering how the sides could solve this.

If the owners aren't going to move on the 5 and 5, then would 5 year UFA be enough of a concession to get the players to buy in? As a fan, it could ruin the continuity of building a team. I was simply thinking from player perspective that lowering to 5 year UFA might be enough to swallow the other garbage.

[Stefan]

Lp

[poetica]

Results: NHL Lockout Survey

NHL fans are angry, have little hope there's going to be a season and believe both the players and owners are responsible for the ongoing impasse in negotiations.

Those were the prevailing sentiments in an online survey concerning the NHL lockout conducted by CBCSports.ca.

The 10-question survey was taken more than 7,000 times during the four days it was online starting last Friday. The responses reveal a lot of bitterness over the league's second work stoppage in the last eight years.

The first question of the survey was the one that's on every hockey fan's mind — whether there will actually be a season. A large number of participants didn't feel confident there's going to be any hockey this year.

The survey, published to the website just one day after discussions between NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr fell apart in dramatic fashion last week, revealed a big majority, 68 per cent, felt there wouldn't be a season, compared to just 11 per cent who thought NHL hockey would begin in the foreseeable future.

In contrast to the last NHL lockout in 2004-05, where public opinion mostly sided with the owners, blame is being equally spread in this work stoppage among hockey fans, according to the survey.

When asked which side they supported, 55 per cent responded, "Neither." The players were next with 26 per cent of votes, nine points better than the owners.

On Monday, the NHL announced it was cancelling all of its games until Dec. 31. Nearly 43 per cent of the season — 526 games in total — have now been lost to this latest work stoppage.

Fans are "angry" at the lack of progress on a deal. That's the emotion 54 per cent most identified with when asked to describe their feelings on the lockout.

Twenty-six per cent said they "don't care" followed by 18 per cent who were "sad" the lockout delayed hockey for at least three months.

If the league does resume this season, fans feel leaders from both sides should be held responsible.

Fifty-five per cent of respondents believe both Bettman and Fehr should step down. Twenty-four per cent said only Bettman should leave his post, followed by 13 per cent who think only Fehr deserves to be shown the door.

If the survey is any indication, teams might be playing in front of a lot of empty seats when they return. Of our respondents, 78 per cent said they would not buy a ticket to an NHL game if the lockout ends this season.

What's the one thing that might bring fans back? Fifty-eight per cent of participants said less expensive tickets are adequate compensation for making them endure a lockout for the second time in the last eight years. Twenty-seven per cent asked for a public apology.

If history is any indication, fans might see a temporary rollback of ticket prices when the lockout is over.

In an effort to entice fans back after the cancelled 2004-05 season, average ticket prices dropped by just over $2 a game. The average cost of a single ticket back in 2005-06 was $41.19. Last season, it was $57.10.

To see the full results of our survey, click here for the PDF file.