*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread

[-Vintage Canuck-]

According to Yahoo Sports' Harrison Mooney, a particularly small group of NHL fans chose to protest outside the league headquarters on Saturday:

Devils and Rangers fans working together? This is serious.

With no meetings scheduled mere hours from the deadline, the NHL work stoppage is all but a certainty at this point. But that didn't prevents the folks behind No Hockey Lockout from protesting outside the NHL store in New York on Saturday.

It wasn't much. Only about 20 hockey fans showed up, according to Helene Elliott, disappointing organizers hoping for a larger presence.

Even more disheartening, efforts to organize similar protests in Montreal, Boston, and Tampa Bay didn't appear to amount to anything. "Not a [expletive] soul in Montreal", tweeted transplanted 18-year-old Rangers' fan Oliver Quintal, who was aiming to lead the protest at the Bell Centre.

Most disheartening of all, everybody on the Avenue of the Americas knew full well that it would do nothing to prevent the inevitable. Even so, the small group made their voices heard from noon to 3pm, just as they had planned.

Sure, it didn't change much, but it was a yet another reminder that NHL fans care deeply and, unlike the owners and the players -- who haven't met since Wednesday -- they are unwilling to go quietly into the lockout.

Protests like these have caught plenty of flak for being ineffective, even from yours truly, but as Quintal told the New York Hockey Journal on Friday, this protest wasn't about solving everything. It was simply about being heard:

"I fully understand the cynicism of the public and journalists," Quintal said. "I know that the protest will not change the world, but I feel it's necessary for me to express my anger and my sadness when I see owners and players… keeping us from having a season of watching our national sport. I would not feel right to let this happen without knowing that I did my small part."

http://sports.yahoo....04883--nhl.html

[boxiebrown]

The power of Fehr. A few weeks ago BizNasty was on TSN radio or the fan and said a roll back would not effect him because he only makes $625 000, it's not that much of a difference, where the guys making 6M are going to feel it more.

So Paul, who has been actually signing your pay checks for the last few years? Not your NHLPA brothers!! Maybe if he understood that there are cities that have fans and support their hockey team. In these cities some of these fans have to spend a week or more salary to go and watch a game. Higher salaries mean higher ticket prices for fans, and fans Paul are people that sit in those empty set in your arena.

[boxiebrown]

Honestly I don't see how anyone can really support the players here.

They've got nothing but huge raises in the last 7 years. Contracts have only grown in value and that's NOT because of the owners, it's because of how market value has risen along with the cap to match revenue growth. The owners really have no choice but to pay that player's "market value" or risk losing him.

The present CBA is flawed in the sense that it doesn't really take into account the rising costs of operating a franchise or economic impact when calculating player salaries. The increase in NHL revenue helps owners with the rising operating costs but that only gets them to offset it, while the players simply gain higher salaries with no rising costs whatsoever. The players are getting free raises (in a fragile economy), while all the expenses are on the owners.

The NHL clearly lowballed with their 43% with the aim of reaching 50/50. The players flat-out refusing to take any kind of paycut and do a "gradual" equalization is ridiculous. They continue to fall-back to the argument of how NHL revenue has grown by more than 50%, so why do they have to make less, but completely ignore the fact that said revenue is going towards increased operating costs. Only the players are benefiting from the current revenue model. 50/50 is not at all unreasonable.

Think of it this way. The owners represent the people way more than the players do. Think of the THOUSANDS of average joe people working in the various hockey operation departments both at the NHL offices and the arenas; they have to get paid by the owner as well, and they aren't making millions like the greedy players. If the owners were to get a little bit more of a share, that money can get funneled down into the entire organization and maybe that "nobody" marketing assistant or IT tech or accountant can make a little better of a living.

[YaK]

Well... if we're headed for another lockout within a decade of the last one I hope to see more legal challenges for the cup.

Reading up on the history it is possible that Lord Stanley's original "gift" may not even be valid and that technically the cup is still owned either by his heirs or by the current Governor General. If the original donation is valid, then the Trustees may actually be bound by the agreement to award the cup year to year (i.e Lord Stanley never meant for them to have any say in the matter whether it was awarded, regardless of what leagues challenge for it). In any case it is certainly not owned by the NHL and any modern agreements (such as the 1947 agreement essentially giving the NHL power over the cup) are not likely valid.

This is a long, but interesting, opinion by a property law professor who clearly was interested in the case:

http://www.jeremydebeer.ca/images/Stanley%20Cup%20Case%20Study%20Scan.pdf

[Mauii]

That's not true. Ticket prices are driven by supply and demand. The reason that Canucks tickets are so expensive is because so many people want to buy them. There is literally zero relationship between salaries and ticket prices.

[Wetcoaster]

I seldom post here any longer due to the proliferation of prepubescent morons allowed to run wild but I was asked by email to provide a historical quote from Bettman I posted on another forum, made during the last lockout during an interview with Peter Mansbridge on the CBC Town Hall discussing the lockout.

How about a trip down CBA memory lane? Here is was Bettman (aka Mr. Fix-It) said during the last lockout:

"With the right economic system, we can have 30 healthy, competitive franchises all with affordable ticket prices, which frankly all of this is about the fans.

We will have 30 teams going forward, 30 healthy, competitive teams if we have the right economic system.

But the owners have the right and the owners, having written too many cheques, have reached the point where they said, "We're not prepared to live with the current system. We think the current system is fatally flawed. We want it fixed. We know what the problems are, and we know how to fix it, and the best..." listen. Nobody is more unhappy about the fact that we're not playing games than I am. I assure you of that. But the fact of the matter is if we don't fix the problems, we don't have a future. So it's not about the timing. It's not about how many games we miss in the short term. It's about making sure we make the right deal.

What I say to him (a young boy in Montreal) is, like him, I watch games every night. I look at nhl.com first thing in the morning. Nobody will miss this more than he and I will. I say we're sorry. We're sorry we have to go through this, but we can't continue the way we're going, and we promise, we promise that we're going to fix it."

So Mr. Fix-It - what went wrong? Perhaps you really do not have a clue what the problems are, and do not know how to fix it.

The NHLPA has given you solutions including roll backs and increased revenue sharing to help out lower revenue teams but you and the NHL owners act as if you have no fault in this and try to place the blame completely on the players.

You tried to make an idiot -proof system the last time and all that has shown as that the GMs and owners are bigger idiots than you thought.

But this is all about the fans, right Gary?

To quote that noted deep thinker and philosopher, former US President George W. Bush:

[WiDeN]

I seldom post here any longer due to the proliferation of prepubescent morons allowed to run wild but I was asked by email to provide a historical quote from Bettman I posted on another forum, made during the last lockout during an interview with Peter Mansbridge on the CBC Town Hall discussing the lockout.

How about a trip down CBA memory lane? Here is was Bettman (aka Mr. Fix-It) said during the last lockout:

"With the right economic system, we can have 30 healthy, competitive franchises all with affordable ticket prices, which frankly all of this is about the fans.

We will have 30 teams going forward, 30 healthy, competitive teams if we have the right economic system.

But the owners have the right and the owners, having written too many cheques, have reached the point where they said, "We're not prepared to live with the current system. We think the current system is fatally flawed. We want it fixed. We know what the problems are, and we know how to fix it, and the best..." listen. Nobody is more unhappy about the fact that we're not playing games than I am. I assure you of that. But the fact of the matter is if we don't fix the problems, we don't have a future. So it's not about the timing. It's not about how many games we miss in the short term. It's about making sure we make the right deal.

What I say to him (a young boy in Montreal) is, like him, I watch games every night. I look at nhl.com first thing in the morning. Nobody will miss this more than he and I will. I say we're sorry. We're sorry we have to go through this, but we can't continue the way we're going, and we promise, we promise that we're going to fix it."

So Mr. Fix-It - what went wrong? Perhaps you really do not have a clue what the problems are, and do not know how to fix it.

The NHLPA has given you solutions including roll backs and increased revenue sharing to help out lower revenue teams but you and the NHL owners act as if you have no fault in this and try to place the blame completely on the players.

You tried to make an idiot -proof system the last time and all that has shown as that the GMs and owners are bigger idiots than you thought.

But this is all about the fans, right Gary?

To quote that noted deep thinker and philosopher, former US President George W. Bush:

[Navyblue]

Ha, awesome dig Wetcoaster.

I miss reading your posts on here.

[TowelPower12]

looks like i'm going to watch alot more football this year, go frack yourselves nhl

[Wetcoaster]

The real issue is 50% of what.

As we learned during the last lockout, the NHL owners concealed a huge amount of hockey related revenue (HRR) when they cried poor - remember that fantastic work of fiction... the Leavitt Report that was never heard from again once the salary cap was achieved.

The owners want to totally re-define HRR and remove as much as they possibly can - so it is not just percentages.

And that is why you cannot compare the NFL or the NBA percentage splits as they have different definitions of the revenues that go in to be divided up between the players and owners.

[Boudrias]

I seldom post here any longer due to the proliferation of prepubescent morons allowed to run wild but I was asked by email to provide a historical quote from Bettman I posted on another forum, made during the last lockout during an interview with Peter Mansbridge on the CBC Town Hall discussing the lockout.

How about a trip down CBA memory lane? Here is was Bettman (aka Mr. Fix-It) said during the last lockout:

"With the right economic system, we can have 30 healthy, competitive franchises all with affordable ticket prices, which frankly all of this is about the fans.

We will have 30 teams going forward, 30 healthy, competitive teams if we have the right economic system.

But the owners have the right and the owners, having written too many cheques, have reached the point where they said, "We're not prepared to live with the current system. We think the current system is fatally flawed. We want it fixed. We know what the problems are, and we know how to fix it, and the best..." listen. Nobody is more unhappy about the fact that we're not playing games than I am. I assure you of that. But the fact of the matter is if we don't fix the problems, we don't have a future. So it's not about the timing. It's not about how many games we miss in the short term. It's about making sure we make the right deal.

What I say to him (a young boy in Montreal) is, like him, I watch games every night. I look at nhl.com first thing in the morning. Nobody will miss this more than he and I will. I say we're sorry. We're sorry we have to go through this, but we can't continue the way we're going, and we promise, we promise that we're going to fix it."

So Mr. Fix-It - what went wrong? Perhaps you really do not have a clue what the problems are, and do not know how to fix it.

The NHLPA has given you solutions including roll backs and increased revenue sharing to help out lower revenue teams but you and the NHL owners act as if you have no fault in this and try to place the blame completely on the players.

You tried to make an idiot -proof system the last time and all that has shown as that the GMs and owners are bigger idiots than you thought.

But this is all about the fans, right Gary?

To quote that noted deep thinker and philosopher, former US President George W. Bush:

[smurf47]

That's not true. Ticket prices are driven by supply and demand. The reason that Canucks tickets are so expensive is because so many people want to buy them. There is literally zero relationship between salaries and ticket prices.

[Mauii]

you know that how?

[canuckelhead70]

That's not true. Ticket prices are driven by supply and demand. The reason that Canucks tickets are so expensive is because so many people want to buy them. There is literally zero relationship between salaries and ticket prices.

[mbal23]

Last

[boxiebrown]

When the salary floor keeps growing every year (expense), if the owners don't get more people in the building (some can't because they are sold out) or raise ticket prices they will be losing money where the player still has his multi million dollar contract no matter how many people show up to the games.

Didn't some of these clowns file for UI during the last lock out as well?

[boxiebrown]

Hence, marginalizing alot of the teams...despite little revenue coming and low ticket prices, the player's high salaries still gets paid and will put alot of companies in the red. Until this gets under control and be more manageable, the team will continue to bleed money and if not go bankrupt. A company simply cannot stay in business under these conditions. That's why the NHLP proposal seems odd. NHL says we need to correct this now because of the financial problems of some teams, but the NHLP's proposal says nah...how about you wait it out a couple of years in a slow and gradual process based on projected revenue increase..which doesn't really help the current state of things...and even if those increases don't happen...too bad that's your problem?? Well, it will be yours too if you don't have a team to play for because they've gone bankrupt because they couldn't afford to pay you. Hardly a solution to the current situation. It almost seems to suggest I just want to be paid now regardless and not really be considerate of the overall situation or irrespective of the league's current situation. They should add a clause in the new CBA where agreements can't be reached the matter goes to arbitration to prevent any further lockout and loss wages/revenues, with the intent that at arbitration the issues will be addressed instead of having to take such dramatic losses by both parties. Then perhaps they'd be more willing to come to mutual agreements rather then having a 3rd party decide for them.

[Blackberries]

I seldom post here any longer due to the proliferation of prepubescent morons allowed to run wild but I was asked by email to provide a historical quote from Bettman I posted on another forum, made during the last lockout during an interview with Peter Mansbridge on the CBC Town Hall discussing the lockout.

How about a trip down CBA memory lane? Here is was Bettman (aka Mr. Fix-It) said during the last lockout:

"With the right economic system, we can have 30 healthy, competitive franchises all with affordable ticket prices, which frankly all of this is about the fans.

We will have 30 teams going forward, 30 healthy, competitive teams if we have the right economic system.

But the owners have the right and the owners, having written too many cheques, have reached the point where they said, "We're not prepared to live with the current system. We think the current system is fatally flawed. We want it fixed. We know what the problems are, and we know how to fix it, and the best..." listen. Nobody is more unhappy about the fact that we're not playing games than I am. I assure you of that. But the fact of the matter is if we don't fix the problems, we don't have a future. So it's not about the timing. It's not about how many games we miss in the short term. It's about making sure we make the right deal.

What I say to him (a young boy in Montreal) is, like him, I watch games every night. I look at nhl.com first thing in the morning. Nobody will miss this more than he and I will. I say we're sorry. We're sorry we have to go through this, but we can't continue the way we're going, and we promise, we promise that we're going to fix it."

So Mr. Fix-It - what went wrong? Perhaps you really do not have a clue what the problems are, and do not know how to fix it.

The NHLPA has given you solutions including roll backs and increased revenue sharing to help out lower revenue teams but you and the NHL owners act as if you have no fault in this and try to place the blame completely on the players.

You tried to make an idiot -proof system the last time and all that has shown as that the GMs and owners are bigger idiots than you thought.

But this is all about the fans, right Gary?

To quote that noted deep thinker and philosopher, former US President George W. Bush:

[Ghostsof1915]

Economics 101...it's called "supply and demand"...look it up

[Ossi Vaananen]

If they can figure this out in the next week (forever optimistic), then hopefully they will just cancel 2 preseason games and limit preseason rosters to 30 people.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to the rumoured Can-Rus series if lockout goes on.