Guest Gumballthechewy Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 The lockout will soon solve the biggest problem in the NHL. "There is more money than the organization is competently able to manage" I don't really see the greed angle as it appears both sides are going to loose money at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I was saying to a friend a couple of days ago that if D Fehr does not negotiate from the latest NHL offer the owners would withdraw the offer on Friday evening. Then, early next week they should announce the league is starting the process to bring in replacement players. Looks like the NHL didn't even wait until Friday. Awesome. Time to get tough with this clown D Fehr. He almost ruined MLB, it took steroid infused HR races to bring the fans back. Next step, announce replacement players. The National Hockey League will withdraw its latest CBA proposal to the NHL Players' Association once Thursday's deadline to finalize a new deal passes. There were no talks held between both sides on Thursday and none have been held since last week's NHL proposal and counter-proposals from the NHLPA. "When we delivered the proposal last Tuesday, we told them it would be on the table through today," NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly told TSN Hockey Insider Pierre LeBrun on ESPN.com Thursday afternoon. "Having not reached agreement through today, I expect that we'll formally notify the union Friday that the proposal is no longer on the table. We're going to take it back internally and figure out where we go from here." Daly also emphasized that he was not threatening the players in any way, but underlying what the league had already told the the NHLPA last Tuesday when it delivered the proposal. "This proposal no longer works because it was a proposal to save 82 games," Daly said. "We have to re-think where we are, and what type of season we're looking at, and we have to formulate and construct a proposal that makes sense for the reality of where we are." NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr was not surprised by the league's statement on withdrawing the offer. "This is a standard approach, I think it was done in the NBA in the same way," Fehr told TSN Hockey Insider Pierre LeBrun on ESPN.com. "Review the history here: they make a proposal, it's essentially a take it or leave it, we respond on the core economics, they take 10 minutes and say no. They tell all the players if we're agreeable to everything except the Make Whole (provision) including all the stuff that's in there, I can give Gary a telephone call. And then we have made several efforts, including yesterday, to say we're prepared to sit down and negotiate with no pre-conditions. They essentially said No. It takes two to negotiate. They seem to be really good at imposing deadlines and issuing ultimatums and having lockouts. It seems to be something they're well-practised at." While Daly did not offer specifics, the NHL is expected to cancel games for the rest of November on Friday. The league cancelled regular season games from Oct. 25 throught Nov. 1 last week, wiping out 135 games in total. "Obviously those decisions are imminent and we're going to have to do what we have to do," he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckelhead70 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 To your last point, there would likely be at least 8-10 people (or groups of people) willing to step up and own teams in profitable markets if we didn't have the owners we do now. That would certainly mean less teams, so less players at the NHL level, but the others not good enough would take over jobs of lesser players playing in other leagues (AHL, KHL, SEL, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 The two sides are so hardened into their positions that the only resolution is going to be when one side's membership starts to fracture. I think the players have a lot of unused leverage so far to help them in this regard. Bettman keeps suggesting that the NHL=Hockey... the players need to separate the game of hockey from the NHL version, and set themselves up to look like they are the stewards of "the game". Players currently can't plan more than a couple of weeks ahead because they are obligated to honour their NHL contracts if a deal is struck (even if they are playing in Russia). This results in a lot of guys waiting and not making plans to play in alternate leagues as who wants to upset your family life for what could only be a few days. The NHLPA needs to have their own deadline where they say they are going to start playing hockey, with or without the NHL. It means that they will not negotiate to play in the NHL for the remainder of the season. This allows: - players to decide to play overseas and make commitments for the full season - players and the NHLPA to organize their own tournaments (eg. Bieksa's buddies) where they give the fans at least a game every couple of weeks in each of the main markets. Contributing half the proceeds to player charities is a way to make them REALLY sound like the good guys - TV networks can negotiate coverage of other leagues to give the stay at home fans some hockey. The are doing this right now on an adhoc basis by broadcasting single AHL games. I know I would happily watch Kassian/Tanev and our other prospects play a few games a month. The worst thing for the owners is if they see full stadiums of cheering fans watching hockey in other buildings other than their own. Add to that players getting paycheques from TV and gate revenue (even for less than their NHL salary) A lot of the owners I am confident are a lot less OK with losing a whole season than losing a month or two. With a hard, player imposed, deadline for the season there is a real impetus to make a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 [Edited for brevity.] I was saying to a friend a couple of days ago that if D Fehr does not negotiate from the latest NHL offer the owners would withdraw the offer on Friday evening. Then, early next week they should announce the league is starting the process to bring in replacement players. Looks like the NHL didn't even wait until Friday. Awesome. Time to get tough with this clown D Fehr. He almost ruined MLB, it took steroid infused HR races to bring the fans back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 As I keep saying.... there is a 3rd option here rather than take one position or the other. Both primary goals can be met for each side but someone needs to take the fall. How about: - A one time walk away from a single contract from each of the 30 teams. - This right can be traded to teams looking for more than one. - Immediate 50/50 split of HRR. - All contracts honoured at face value - 7 year contract lengths - 28/8 UFA - Fully pro-rated contracts If the average value of each contract is $3 mil x 30 teams (+ min. salary replacement) = approximately $75 million in immediate salary reduction this season. Although not ideal, at least 22 of 23 players on each squad will have their contracts honoured in full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeak Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 As I keep saying.... there is a 3rd option here rather than take one position or the other. Both primary goals can be met for each side but someone needs to take the fall. How about: - A one time walk away from a single contract from each of the 30 teams. - This right can be traded to teams looking for more than one. - Immediate 50/50 split of HRR. - All contracts honoured at face value - 7 year contract lengths - 28/8 UFA - Fully pro-rated contracts If the average value of each contract is $3 mil x 30 teams (+ min. salary replacement) = approximately $75 million in immediate salary reduction this season. Although not ideal, at least 22 of 23 players on each squad will have their contracts honoured in full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastal1 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Bettman doesn't care about the fans, it's pretty clear. He takes us for granted, especially the Canadian fans. The american fans will be fine as they would prefer to watch one of their other 3 pro franchises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeak Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 And is Bettman wrong about canadian fans? Of course not. The point is Bettman offered the deal everyone expected to solve this: 50/50. The players rejected it. So the owners will wait until the players change their mind. I think the players have no credibility left at all. Just plain greed from them. And it will bite them in the ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 [Edited for brevity.] - A one time walk away from a single contract from each of the 30 teams. - This right can be traded to teams looking for more than one. .... Although not ideal, at least 22 of 23 players on each squad will have their contracts honoured in full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 It is easy to find people that will buy teams in profitable markets that goes without saying, it's teams like PHX, Nashville, FLA, Dallas, NJ, Tampa, Colorado ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 And is Bettman wrong about canadian fans? Of course not. The point is Bettman offered the deal everyone expected to solve this: 50/50. The players rejected it. So the owners will wait until the players change their mind. I think the players have no credibility left at all. Just plain greed from them. And it will bite them in the ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 That's an interesting idea but one that I don't know would even be legal. I don't think one party of a contract can nullify it unless the other side agrees and given the kinds of contracts that would be targeted, it would be a tough sell to players all but guaranteed to get a much worse deal or none at all. Plus there's still the problem that current contracts won't fit under the new cap (especially with the NHL contracts in the minors being included) without failing to honor them or allowing owners to basically force players to give them an interest free loan by delaying payments until the cap could cover them (and denying players the right to make money off their own money while allowing owners to). Personally I think a staggered drop would be the best. Starting at I think 54% they could honor the spirit of all contracts now but with the 5% expected growth from the previous season and improved team revenue sharing almost all teams would be in the black in year 1. If revenue grows 5% or year 1, (as the NHL projects) drop to 50% the next season. Otherwise, drop to 52% in year 2 and then to 50% in year 3. That way players aren't being held accountable for owners' decisions and owners get immediate and long term benefits while still being held accountable for their contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 I like to figure myself as a very knowledage hockey fan. I look at that proposal - and it makes sense. But sadly the egos of Bettman and Fehr are now involved. Our love of the game and the ability to enjoy it, is being decided by two men who want to 'win' the lock-out. I *understand* why the NHL didn't want to operate temporarily under the old CBA, but it just doesn't make sense why they didn't make a stronger push to make a deal happen BEFORE Sept 15; rather than an artificial date in Nov, Dec or Jan. But as I said - it simply comes down to the fact, that Bettman and Fehr want to win the lock-out, and because of that, we miss out on the thing we love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballisticsports. Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 I see it as a lot worse,when it happens to people who live payday to payday,than to rich players In the real world How did it work out for the Nurses, after they had a signed contract and the Liberals took that away from them? They certainately dont make what NHL players do, and were mandated back to work Life isnt always fair But NHL players are still paid pretty fair coin The players have it good Forget about what the Owners want, Forget about what the Players want They keep talking how the other is lost wthout them. Without our passion and interest,they are both lost How about a contract for the fans ? I personally would like the League to say NO MORE 1 way contracts for ANYONE (like the old days) You have a NHL contract,that You earn if Your playing in it, and one if Your playing on the Farm Team No waiver wire for at least 3 call ups per year Some players need motivation, Seems like most games I have gone too, I feel cheated,because Our team or the other Team players didnt appear to be putting much effort in (then fans would see more passion, and teams wouldnt be saddled with a poor product - like Gomez etc) Greed? How is asking for money that you are LEGALLY entitled to being greedy? If anything, being greedy is, promising money to someone, and then asking for some of it back, just because you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Theminister, you may be right and it would be possible to get the players to go along with a plan like yours. Unfortunately, no one has ever gone broke selling to the worst of human nature. But that does not mean that we can't be better or expect better. There's a huge difference between the collective agreeing to collectively sacrifice and the collective agreeing to make a few individuals (none of whom may have agreed) make all of the sacrifices. And I can't imagine there wouldn't be legal issues surrounding that. The union is there to protect the collective good as well as the individual union member who pays dues. If a union scarified a few in the interest of the many, I can absolutely see them having a claim against their union for failing to live up to their mandate to protect those players' interests. And even if there aren't legal issues, there absolutely are moral issues. And for what? So the richest people in the world can indulge in buyers' remorse and get out of contracts they knowingly, willingly and legally signed? That seems preferable to you than telling owners that they should be held to the same standards in business as everyone else? That seems better than telling the NHL to actually negotiate in the best interest of their industry rather than simply trying to screw the players for their personal benefit regardless of the consequences to others (fans, arena workers, restaurant workers, etc.)? Do you honestly think telling owners that here's yet another easy out for their bad decisions, rather than any actual consequences, will fix the problem rather than exacerbate it? Chances are good neither the NHL nor players ever listen to anything fans have to say, but if they ever do, "Sacrifice a few so the many can get more than they need!" is not the message I want them to hear from me. Nor is, "Accountability is for poor people." I can only speak for myself, but if they ever hear anything I say let it be this: The money I gave them is not a license to behave dishonorably, to believe that they are above the law, nor proof that the same laws that apply to me no longer apply to them simply because they have more money than I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizmo2337 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Off topic a little, I do like the NHL's proposal to allow teams to trade a certain percentage of their cap to other teams. I think this is the one legitimately innovative thing the League has suggested. It allows teams to save on player costs and to build their equity/farm teams from the richer franchises. This is a potentially excellent way for smaller market teams to play 'moneyball.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 poetica....I wasn't suggesting my proposal was my preference or that it was a morally correct way to solve the dispute. In fact I agree with everything you wrote. I am trying to take a dispassioned view of the situation and come up with, what I thought at least, was an innovative way to bridge the gap between the two parties. In business I have learned that moral arguments usually don't get anyone too far. Alternatively, and I believe this is more correctly to your point, ethically the owners are in the wrong based solely on their 'negotiation' tactics. Edit: The ancillary workers are actually the people I have the most vested interest in. Regardless of how the larger pie is split, getting the games back on so as to mitigate their financial burden would be the primary goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanKeslord17 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 All games in November to be cancelled tomorrow. FRACKING FRUSTRATING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Theminister, you're right that moral answers are all too often not favored in business, but they should be, especially in an entertainment industry that needs our money to thrive. I absolutely believe fans need to demand they all behave like adults, consider their greater effect on the communities that give them so much, and give a little to get the deal done. I firmly believe that it's in our best interest as fans to not let the off the hook or give them any excuses for acting like they we don't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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