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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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#3181 poetica

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:27 PM

I think you better check again.
From Oct 06 - March 07 the CDN$ never got to 0.96
It's low point was less than 0.85 at the beginning of Jan and it's highest point was just under 0.90 on Oct 2.
I don't see how that averages 0.96 :)


Right you are. I obviously made a typo transcribing my info to my message. It should be 0.86 season average, not 0.96. Thank you for letting me know!

Doubling checking my numbers...

Edited by poetica, 22 November 2012 - 03:29 PM.

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#3182 Shift-4

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:28 PM

Right you are. I obviously made a mistake transcribing my info to my message. Thank you for letting me know.

Doubling checking my numbers...


Curious as to why you didn't start with Oct 2005 since that is when the last CBA started?
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#3183 D-Money

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:29 PM

:huh:
Not too long ago?   For the past quarter century I would say NFL ratings / viewership has always been higher. At least as a teenager I remember seeing stats that key regular season NFL games got more viewers than World Series games (which at the time I was surprised to see).


I guess "not too long ago" is relative too. How about "there was a time..." ...that work better?
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#3184 Shift-4

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:31 PM

I guess "not too long ago" is relative too. How about "there was a time..." ...that work better?


:lol: sure

And I don't dispute there was a time because my understanding is there was a time in which CFLers made more than NFLers.
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#3185 poetica

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:31 PM

Curious as to why you didn't start with Oct 2005 since that is when the last CBA started?


Because there was no comparable revenue growth for that year as it was the start of a new CBA with a new economic system. Comparing that season's revenue growth to the previous without a cap season would not have been a fair comparison.

Edited by poetica, 22 November 2012 - 03:34 PM.

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#3186 Drive-By Body Pierce

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:34 PM

This is pathetic. Anyone who says this doesn't know jack. This is exactly what you want to get rid of hockey. The only reason you say this is because he isn't North American. If he was Canadian and followed the same exact same career path as Hamrlik, we'd have a different situation. People are just throwing guys like him into the stereotypes.

Erik Cole saying that Hamrlik might as well stay in Czeck. Hey kid, talk about having some respect. Hamrlik has played a hell lot more in the NHL than Cole has.

But as i said a week ago, every day we'll hear from a new player. Perhaps a different perspective and this is good. I hope some players, unlike Cole, decide to speak out and not "say nothing" out of "respect", aka "not know anything" but unite just because you feel like you have to.


Anyone who makes this kind of response doesn't know anything. <- See I can make completely unsubstantiated claims as insults, and pass them off as an argument too.

My statement, which I noted was my opinion, had nothing to do with Hamrlik's origin. It had to do with his involvement in internal conflict in Montreal and his subsequent uninspired play on the ice. Not to mention his salary demands, which sure, every player has the right to go for as much cash as possible...or wait the owners have all the power right?

Again, in my opinion, he wasn't a team player, was seemingly out for his own benefit, and contributed to the team not being as competitive as it could've and should've been.

Its pretty clear you spin events, for example a player speaking out, to try and say it supports your opinion, just like Drybone :o. If they say something that supports your opinion it was good they spoke out. If their comments don't support your opinion then it was bad. Makes sense...when you don't have a valid argument.

At least I can admit that what I'm saying is an opinion.


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#3187 Shift-4

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:35 PM

Just didn't. But if it's important to you I can add them. :)


Not really to me.

I just need to run the numbers in my head and I can recognize that the change in the CDN $ has had a noticeable impact on the increase in revenues over the years but clearly it isn't the only thing driving the increase.
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#3188 WHL rocks

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:37 PM

OK guys lets relax with this MLB and NFL comparison to NHL.

My high school in the US was completely sports oriented. If you were good in sports you were someone. A complete lunch including milk and fruit was $1.25 and if your family is poor then it was free. Going from a Canadian school to an American school it felt like I went from grade 9 to college. The kids were huge and the whole school was all about sports.

We had a football team, baseball team, basketball team, soccer team, volleyball team, golf team etc etc etc. Seemed like we had a team for every sport ever played. The whole town would come watch base ball and foot ball games. Soccer was more popular with the Hispanic community and the games would be packed with Mexican Americans.

Obviously we did NOT have a hockey team. But here's the kicker.

During Gym class in grade 10 our teacher introduced the class to hockey. As a Canadian kid who had recently moved to US I could not believe that none of the kids in my gym class had ever held a hockey stick before. I'm serious when I say none of the kids had ever held a hockey stick. I couldn't believe it.

Being a Canadian and having had played hockey all my life it seemed like I was playing with a bunch of Kindergarten kids. The whole school talked about how I was an awesome hockey player, the football coach even asked me to join the team. Which regrettably I didn't.

I can say one thing from my experience. To compare NHL to other major sports in the US is ludicrous.

The Yankees charge $2500 per seat for the best seats. That's the price of a season ticket for the NYR.
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#3189 poetica

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:40 PM

Not really to me.

I just need to run the numbers in my head and I can recognize that the change in the CDN $ has had a noticeable impact on the increase in revenues over the years but clearly it isn't the only thing driving the increase.


Actually, when I went to look at why I didn't include that year I remembered why. I edited my previous message but I guess you started replying before then. Anyway, the reason I didn't include the first year is that there's no revenue increase % to use for that year as it was the first year of the new CBA and cap system.

But if you come up with numerical proof that fluctuations in the Canadian dollar are having a demonstrated effect on the NHL's revenues I'd love to see it, especially if you can account for the comparable years of currency rates with vastly different growth rates.
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#3190 SamJamIam

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:43 PM

No I don't see how it doesn't make sense. When the league had 6 Canadian teams, Canadian teams made up for over 1/3 of the revenue. If/When the CAD comes down NHL revenue will take a hit. Simple as that.

1/5 of the league accounts for 1/3 or revenue.

$3 billion/ 3 = $1 billion. Reduce that $1 billion by 25% leaves you $2.75 billion. See how easy that is?

It would be stupid of any one to think so black and white. Of course the NHL has grown. The NBC deal is proof of that. But the value of CAD is a huge reason for increased revenues. Bettman and Fehr both know that and they both know CAD will come down once US economy recovers. That's why guarantee players seek is such a contentious issue in these negotiation.


Elvis15 only made a logical deduction in reply to YOUR assertion that the rising CAD was the driving force of NHL revenue. Then you got all pissy and said he's wrong. He has nothing to be wrong about. His logic is obviously fine. I think you're just so lost in this debate that you don't realize that the subject matter you disagreed with wasn't his to begin with, it was yours. You're arguing with yourself.

Rethink your post and come again.

Attendance PHX 12000 per game, MTL 21000+ per game.


I think you need to rethink your attitude. Elvis15 said 21 NHL teams have average attendance above 16,304 (KHL's new record). If PHX is averaging 12K (and is indeed far worse off than other clubs which is why it still doesn't have an owner), it would stand to reason that Elvis15 was correct that ~2/3 of the league has attendance higher than the KHL's record. Moreover, it can be read right here: http://espn.go.com/n...nce/_/year/2012

Your dismissiveness is unfounded and, combined with an inability to draw insight from the numbers, highlights that you're failing to keep up in this discussion. If you can't be polite and can't work with the facts presented, stop wasting people's time with petty insults. They distract no one from the fact that accounting is not your strong suit.

Edited by nateb123, 22 November 2012 - 03:52 PM.

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#3191 WHL rocks

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:00 PM

Elvis15 only made a logical deduction in reply to YOUR assertion that the rising CAD was the driving force of NHL revenue. Then you got all pissy and said he's wrong. He has nothing to be wrong about. His logic is obviously fine. I think you're just so lost in this debate that you don't realize that the subject matter you disagreed with wasn't his to begin with, it was yours. You're arguing with yourself.



I think you need to rethink your attitude. Elvis15 said 21 NHL teams have average attendance above 16,304 (KHL's new record). If PHX is averaging 12K (and is indeed far worse off than other clubs which is why it still doesn't have an owner), it would stand to reason that Elvis15 was correct that ~2/3 of the league has attendance higher than the KHL's record. Moreover, it can be read right here: http://espn.go.com/n...nce/_/year/2012

Your dismissiveness is unfounded and, combined with an inability to draw insight from the numbers, highlights that you're failing to keep up in this discussion. If you can't be polite and can't work with the facts presented, stop wasting people's time with petty insults.


Didn't realize Elvis had a fan base.

Actually Elvis was arguing that the NHL teams draw more fans vs the KHLbecause the players are better in NHL. I gave example of PHX drawing 12000 per game and MTL drawing 21000 per game to show that talent alone is not the only reason ppl go watch hockey games.

Clearly PHX had better talent level than MTL last year, so why did MTL draw more fans? Never mind. I have no futher interest in this subject.

If a person can't comprehend why certain Texas towns fill 20000 seats to watch a high school football game while CFL teams don't draw the same amount I don't have interest in arguing with them. Waste of my time.
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#3192 Rey

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:05 PM

My statement, which I noted was my opinion, had nothing to do with Hamrlik's origin. It had to do with his involvement in internal conflict in Montreal and his subsequent uninspired play on the ice. Not to mention his salary demands, which sure, every player has the right to go for as much cash as possible...or wait the owners have all the power right?


http://hfboards.hock...ad.php?t=766218

your opinion is flawed. Character issues, "internal conflicts", "uninspired play" "not a team player". Lets just throw these at em for no reason. Okay. Say that he's a Selfish Russian while your at it.

There's nothing wrong with Hamrlik, the player. He was good when he needed to be, but he's a 38 year old that is slow. Throughout the thread, though many questions about his game. There is no indication of what you "claim" to be truth. Might as well stamp the "European" stereotype cause that's all you've done.

He's not a team player. I wonder why his teammate Neuvirth comes out and says he supports Hamrlik 100%.

Edited by Rey, 22 November 2012 - 04:21 PM.

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#3193 playboi19

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:09 PM

Good job by Hamrlik today.

He's right about Cole, who has his signing bonus in the pocket already. He doesn't need to play this season since he's gotten $5m in signing bonuses the last two seasons.
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#3194 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:22 PM

I can't believe so many of you are supporting Hamrlik defecting from the union. You realize he's negating the efforts of 600+ other players. Hamrlik is 38, he doesn't care about anyone else, he just wants another year.
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#3195 WHL rocks

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:26 PM

C'mon Poetica. The CAD has gained approx 25% vs the USD since the last lockout. All revenues are calculated in USD. Common sense dictates if 33% of league revenue is collected in a currency that appreciated by 25%, the revenue is affected.

Obviously the league has grown apart form the rise in CAD. NHL has more lucrative TV deals and people had more disposable income to spend on NHL games and merchandise. The business has been growing since the 1940's. There are a number of reasons for revenue to increase but the recent rise of CAD in a huge factor.
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#3196 Shift-4

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:27 PM

I can't believe so many of you are supporting Hamrlik defecting from the union. You realize he's negating the efforts of 600+ other players. Hamrlik is 38, he doesn't care about anyone else, he just wants another year.


I don't think that is a defection. He is just speaking his mind.

Most would like GB's gag order lifted for the owners. No difference.
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#3197 Shift-4

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:28 PM

C'mon Poetica. The CAD has gained approx 25% vs the USD since the last lockout. All revenues are calculated in USD. Common sense dictates if 33% of league revenue is collected in a currency that appreciated by 25%, the revenue is affected.


Closer to 18% actually.



Edit: 18% is from the start of the 05/06 season. If you go back to the start of the last lockout (OCT04) then yes it did increase by 25% but there was no revenue then to calculate any increases against.

Edited by Shift-4, 22 November 2012 - 04:43 PM.

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#3198 Provost

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:34 PM

I would sympathize with the players if they were asked to make less IF they were making $70k a year. The fact of the matter is, they are playing a sport and being compensated handsomly for it. Not only that, but being compensated playing a sport that virtually nobody in the states cares about.


Well considering even the worst player in the NHL is amongst the best at their profession on the planet... and the average NHL career is 3-4 years, most of them aren't making out like bandits. That is a $2-4 million dollars for their entire career, minus things like agent fees, etc. What they do to become NHL calibre players is not the same as you going to your local rink and playing pickup before a few beers... it is an actual job that requires a lot of work and years of dedication to the exclusion of lots of other things.

I don't begrudge them a cent.

Edited by Provost, 22 November 2012 - 04:38 PM.

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#3199 Boudrias

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:35 PM

Since that rule only goes into effect in the 2nd year of the new CBA, the share requirement will be based on lockout damaged revenue. The effects from the lockout will almost certainly be upfront and then diminish with time. There's no reason I can think of that revenue would return to normal and then drop out of spite in 2 years. There certainly could be years where growth isn't as high as projected, but under the PA proposal players aren't guaranteed any increase from year to year, only that their share will not drop from year to year. As far as I know, NHL revenues have never gone backwards, even during some of the worst economic conditions in decades. Even after the last lockout, profits increased year to year.

Also, I believe the PA used the exact year-to-year projections the NHL made in there "see how far apart we are" charts for their last proposal (which is 2.5% growth of last year's revenue for the 2013/14 and then 5% growth for every year after that).

If it means nothing and NHL revenues have never gone down then why does the NHLPA want it in the contract? If I was either group I would be very concerned that revenues might go down. This dispute won't help the game and neither will the overall economy which I suspect will tank in 2013 and 2014. If this is a 50/50 partnership then both parties should share that risk.
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#3200 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:40 PM

Now you got a long time NHL pro who has been through every lockout speaking his mind. He is sick of Fehr and his crap.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410028


At this point the union has a choice. Same as I have stated all along.

They either try to defend Fehr''s EGO as a negotiator and make a whole pile of guys waste an entire year of their already short careers...........

Or they fire Fehr or have him step down and get a hockey guy to step up to the plate with Bettman to hammer a fair deal out.

There is no other choice. Nobody in their right mind honestly thinks hiring Fehr was worth it anymore. The most the union can hope for is to try to salvage some credibility for the next CBA down the road.

Cut your losses now and live to fight another day.



Can you please explain how Fehr has done a bad job rather than just basing him without stating your reasoning? I've been waiting to hear your theories on how bad of a job he is apparently doing.
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#3201 elvis15

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:41 PM

OK guys lets relax with this MLB and NFL comparison to NHL.

My high school in the US was completely sports oriented. If you were good in sports you were someone. A complete lunch including milk and fruit was $1.25 and if your family is poor then it was free. Going from a Canadian school to an American school it felt like I went from grade 9 to college. The kids were huge and the whole school was all about sports.

We had a football team, baseball team, basketball team, soccer team, volleyball team, golf team etc etc etc. Seemed like we had a team for every sport ever played. The whole town would come watch base ball and foot ball games. Soccer was more popular with the Hispanic community and the games would be packed with Mexican Americans.

Obviously we did NOT have a hockey team. But here's the kicker.

During Gym class in grade 10 our teacher introduced the class to hockey. As a Canadian kid who had recently moved to US I could not believe that none of the kids in my gym class had ever held a hockey stick before. I'm serious when I say none of the kids had ever held a hockey stick. I couldn't believe it.

Being a Canadian and having had played hockey all my life it seemed like I was playing with a bunch of Kindergarten kids. The whole school talked about how I was an awesome hockey player, the football coach even asked me to join the team. Which regrettably I didn't.

I can say one thing from my experience. To compare NHL to other major sports in the US is ludicrous.

The Yankees charge $2500 per seat for the best seats. That's the price of a season ticket for the NYR.

I hate to quote a whole post for the space it takes up when people will likely have read it and I'm responding to the sentiment in the first sentence, but we've also seen you take offence at that recently so here goes:

The NHL wants to use the CBAs from other sports as comparisons (to why we should have 50/50 revenue and 5 year contract limits for instance) so why can't we discuss them? So long as we realize there are differences between them all there's no reason to ignore them as a possible source of information and ideas.

-----------------------------------

I understand your point from the post previous to the one I'm making now (where you responded to nateb123), but when using specific comparisons like how a KHL game has record attendance when NHL players are involved and that is still only so far ahead of the worst average attendance in the NHL, it does have some value to the discussion.

How about this, Phoenix did have woeful attendance for much of the year, but yet still managed to outdo the KHL record attendance 5 times in the regular season last season (they had 17K+ in attendance for all playoff games last season). KHL teams without NHL stars would love to have that kind of attendance since the most recent source I've found puts the top KHL team at under 10K fans average for the 2010/2011 season and the average attendance for the league at just over 6K. Granted they have smaller arenas too, but if they had the revenue from attendance they could expand arena size.

You've mentioned you don't want to talk about it, but others are arguing that the NHL holds all the power and it's because of the fans being loyal to teams (and teams alone) that the NHL could use replacement players and still be just as successful.

My argument is the opposite, in that if there isn't the same level of quality in the on ice product the fans won't be willing to spend as much to see games nor will they spend as much on merchandise and in other revenue streams. I'm happy to discuss that if you are.

Edited by elvis15, 22 November 2012 - 04:49 PM.

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#3202 Boudrias

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:49 PM

Well considering even the worst player in the NHL is amongst the best at their profession on the planet... and the average NHL career is 4 years, most of them aren't making out like bandits. That is a $2-4 million dollars for their entire career, minus things like agent fees, etc. What they do to become NHL calibre players is not the same as you going to your local rink and playing pickup before a few beers... it is an actual job that requires a lot of work and years of dedication to the exclusion of lots of other things.

I don't begrudge them a cent.

I don't begrudge whatever $ they can get. That is why IMO that current contracts have to be honoured in full and failing that I would support a PA strike. A deal is a deal.

Do I think NHL players are special athletes, no. Most professional athletes have to train at the same level, some make more and some less than NHL players. It is the price they pay to play the game in the NHL. I also think that NHL players have an inflated idea of their worth to the NHL business. That is a fundamental weakness in their negociating position. While it would set the NHL back to replace them it still could be done. I think that situation would not occur until next fall if it comes to that. Why wouldn't current owners want to do that? NHL clubs have hugh amounts of money invested in their players. Some of those clubs have development timelines that have them CUP competitive now. Burning the NHLPA hurts the game and hurts some clubs more than others. That doesn't change the reality that the decision would come down to dollars and cents.
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#3203 Provost

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:52 PM

If it means nothing and NHL revenues have never gone down then why does the NHLPA want it in the contract? If I was either group I would be very concerned that revenues might go down. This dispute won't help the game and neither will the overall economy which I suspect will tank in 2013 and 2014. If this is a 50/50 partnership then both parties should share that risk.


There is definitely a sense in all the NHLPA proposals that puts the onus on the owners to actually grow the game... Fehr even said outright "we don't decide where to put franchises, that is not our job". I agree that there is no reason for the players to have to subsidize the league making poor business decisions.

If the league moved the bottom couple of franchises to higher revenue places (Quebec, Southern Ontario, Seattle, Vegas, Kansas City, etc) then there is a bigger pie for everyone to share. I don't buy the "U.S. national TV audience" argument because it doesn't explain why you need two team in Florida, three teams in the New York area, 3 teams in California, but have none in many other regions.
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#3204 Heretic

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:54 PM

I can't believe so many of you are supporting Hamrlik defecting from the union. You realize he's negating the efforts of 600+ other players. Hamrlik is 38, he doesn't care about anyone else, he just wants another year.


Maybe if you watched hockey half as long as I have you would understand.

Let me get this straight, you think because Hamrlik wants to play one more year, he's negating the efforts of 600+ players?
Really? What efforts?

Why won't Fehr let them vote? Probably because more then half would accept an offer as it means getting paid and playing.

There are no winners in this at all - everyone loses.
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#3205 poetica

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:54 PM

C'mon Poetica. The CAD has gained approx 25% vs the USD since the last lockout. All revenues are calculated in USD. Common sense dictates if 33% of league revenue is collected in a currency that appreciated by 25%, the revenue is affected.


Wow! I spent hours looking at actual facts and numbers and wrote a whole long message detailing said facts and numbers and apparently all I needed was "approx" guesses and claims of "common sense" to support any opinion I have. Geez, I wish you'd told me before I wasted time actually fact checking your "common sense."

At any rate, I never said the revenue, especially specifically for Canadian teams, wasn't influenced at all. Rather, I said fluctuation in the Canadian dollar was not a major determining factor in the NHL's bottom line. If you have proof to backup your assertions, please share it. I'd love to see it.

Canadian teams have to pay NHL fees, players' salaries, and US based travel fees in US dollars, but the teams still exist in Canada. That means their other costs are in Canadian dollars and would not be influenced by changes to the loonie. It costs the same to power an arena from one day to the next, regardless of changes in currency. So, with regard to local costs changes in the Canadian dollar would not matter.

Furthermore, as I mentioned in my previous message, dealing with both currencies is not new for the Canadian teams. I'm sure they utilize multiple banking techniques to minimize their loses and maximize their gains resulting from currency fluctuations. Dealing with large funds, they probably get a great exchange rate and I'm sure they buy US currency to have on hand to avoid needing to buy it when the loonie drops. They most likely take advantage of currency fluctuations to profit, selling one currency when it's high and buying the other when it's low.

Also, some of the money the Canadian teams receive would likely be in US funds already (such as from video games, merchandising agreements through the NHL which use US funds, or NHL.com purchases for example), and therefore have none lost to exchange.

Edited by poetica, 22 November 2012 - 05:09 PM.

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#3206 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:55 PM

The NHLPA can go @#$# themselves. Thats the answer from the NHL .The current stars can go play in the KHL. The other 90% have no reason in the slightest to continue to sit out. Their contracts do not change nor would they change if they left the NHLPA and formed a new union.


If that happened it would destroy the NHL, what's grows the game? The Stars do. If they left the NHL would lose a ton of revenue, and with the cost's it takes to run a franchise, I don't know how long the NHL would last.

I know you are frustrated. But your childish insults are irrelevant and are not helpful. You cannot see beyond a very limited viewpoint.


It's kind of hypocritical of you to say, since you seem to be the one making the most childish insults in the thread.

And Hamrlik's comments were just as "Ridiculous" as Cole's.


Next time you engage me In conversation please quote my entire post.



UFA's like Hudler getting @4 mill and Wideman @5.25 mill over multi year deals are the type of examples you listed. My point stands.

Any knowledgeable hockey fan knows big name UFA NHL players rarely come to Canada to play. Canucks have had some success lately because they are a top tier team. Hamhuis and Garrison signed here.

Do you really think there was a chance of Suter and/or Parise signing in Winnipeg


Do you think there is any chance of them coming here either? A better chance than in WPG but still very Doubtful.

And like he said it depends how you classify high ticket UFA, You said we got some in Hamhuis and Garrison, which I agree with, but if you classify them as high end than Wideman should be too, and he went to Calgary, Ottawa got Sergei Gonchar, he is pretty high end.

I see your point but I do think they are still able of getting the same tier of players as we are, maybe not as often due to the fact that we have more success than them, but if they were successful then they would probably do just aswell as us.
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#3207 D-Money

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:56 PM

I can't believe so many of you are supporting Hamrlik defecting from the union. You realize he's negating the efforts of 600+ other players. Hamrlik is 38, he doesn't care about anyone else, he just wants another year.


I agree. At his age Washington overpaid him at 3.5 per. He has one year left on that contract, after which he'd be lucky to be making 2, let alone being signed at all (should he decline further).

It's purely selfish. Roman just wants his money before he leaves the league. "Who cares what is happening in a year or two? I'll be long gone." This is depite him making over 25 million in just the last 5 years (for fairly average play).

I don't blame Cole - who has many years left in this league - for wanting to tell Hamrlik off.
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#3208 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:58 PM

Rethink your post and come again.

Attendance PHX 12000 per game, MTL 21000+ per game.


Did you just say PHX averaged 12000 per game????? :shock:
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#3209 Boudrias

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:00 PM

I hate to quote a whole post for the space it takes up when people will likely have read it and I'm responding to the sentiment in the first sentence, but we've also seen you take offence at that recently so here goes:

The NHL wants to use the CBAs from other sports as comparisons (to why we should have 50/50 revenue and 5 year contract limits for instance) so why can't we discuss them? So long as we realize there are differences between them all there's no reason to ignore them as a possible source of information and ideas.

-----------------------------------

I understand your point from the post previous to the one I'm making now (where you responded to nateb123), but when using specific comparisons like how a KHL game has record attendance when NHL players are involved and that is still only so far ahead of the worst average attendance in the NHL, it does have some value to the discussion.

How about this, Phoenix did have woeful attendance for much of the year, but yet still managed to outdo the KHL record attendance 5 times in the regular season last season (they had 17K+ in attendance for all playoff games last season). KHL teams without NHL stars would love to have that kind of attendance since the most recent source I've found puts the top KHL team at under 10K fans average for the 2010/2011 season and the average attendance for the league at just over 6K. Granted they have smaller arenas too, but if they had the revenue from attendance they could expand arena size.

You've mentioned you don't want to talk about it, but others are arguing that the NHL holds all the power and it's because of the fans being loyal to teams (and teams alone) that the NHL could use replacement players and still be just as successful.

My argument is the opposite, in that if there isn't the same level of quality in the on ice product the fans won't be willing to spend as much to see games nor will they spend as much on merchandise and in other revenue streams. I'm happy to discuss that if you are.

While I hope it never comes down to using replacement players I have no doubt that it could be done. I think the KHL is a joke and if the Ruskies want to stay there fine by me.
- You should ask yourself how many current NHL players would jump ship from the PA and resign with the NHL. My guess is over 50%.
- NHL clubs would be drafting young players to replace those lost.
- I suggest a good number of fans follow their teams before the players. A local team draws local fans.

The threat to the NHL in this scenario is not the KHL but a rival N. American league set up to compete. I just don't think that will happen.
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#3210 D-Money

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:00 PM

I know what I want to see in the next contract: A provision that if NHL players are locked out, they will be free to sign contracts and play in any other league of their choice - including the AHL.

That would at least be a big disincentive for another lockout.
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