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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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#3391 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:41 PM

Not in my experience. If it is a capital intensive (needing lots of machinery, plant space, etc) it can be under 30% easily. Retail would be even less (I just peeked at Rona 2011 financial statements $486M personnel expenses on over $4B in revenue.)

Since we are talking a service industry with NHL I thought I would compare it to the company I do the accounting for now which is mostly service based. The total personnel expense (including benefits) is around 35% of revenues.




It is my personnel opinion that all of that is irrelevant to the NHL situation, however. It is between the league and the PA as to where that should land.


I may be reading this wrong or perhaps I wasn't clear but I'm talking about how much an employer would pay on average for their employees salaries (and everything that comes along with that) as well as how much they spend on their product (and all that comes along with that) 35 percent seems really low to me.
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#3392 Shift-4

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:48 PM

I may be reading this wrong or perhaps I wasn't clear but I'm talking about how much an employer would pay on average for their employees salaries (and everything that comes along with that) as well as how much they spend on their product (and all that comes along with that) 35 percent seems really low to me.


You read it correct.

Trying to think of a services based company with public statements as a reference............stay tuned.

(public statements aren't always explicit with total personnel cost)





Edit: Don't stay tuned................too much of a PITA to find the info I am looking for. :lol:
On a sidenote..........Microsoft's Investor Relations pages are awesome!

Edited by Shift-4, 26 November 2012 - 01:07 PM.

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#3393 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:00 PM

@reporterchris: While CBA negotiations are likely to be held this week, the NHL isn't planning to come with a new offer.
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#3394 playboi19

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:05 PM


Pierre LeBrun@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Federal mediator now involved in NHL/NHLPA labor talks. More to come.

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#3395 Squeak

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:06 PM

GAH - Playboi beat me!

Mediators have been brought in.


@Real_ESPNLeBrun: Federal mediator now involved in NHL/NHLPA labor talks. More to come


Edited by Squeak, 26 November 2012 - 01:06 PM.

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#3396 SamJamIam

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:09 PM

GAH - Playboi beat me!

Mediators have been brought in.


Yay!
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#3397 playboi19

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:09 PM


Bob McKenzie@TSNBobMcKenzie

NHL and NHLPA have agreed to allow U.S. federal mediators to get involved in the labor dispute.



Bob McKenzie@TSNBobMcKenzie
Deputy Director Scot L. Beckenbaugh, Director of Mediation Services John Sweeney, and Commissioner Guy Serota to serve as the mediators.
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#3398 theminister

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:12 PM

About freaking time.....

I'm guessing that both sides realise that their arguments in Federal court might be invalidated if they do not resort to a mediator first.

I could very well be mistaken but I understood that it is a requirement that the mediation process be attempted first. If either side refused to participate in mediation then their legal arguments would be negatively impacted. For example, if the NHL refuses a mediator then they will be more easily viewed as being guilty of anti-trust violations. If the NHLPA did not participate then their decertification would be viewed more as a strong arm tactic.

Any word on who it is?

Edit: Nice work, playboi.

Edited by theminister, 26 November 2012 - 01:12 PM.

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#3399 Shift-4

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:13 PM

<---- *wonders if decertification talk influenced entrance of mediators*

Edited by Shift-4, 26 November 2012 - 01:20 PM.

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#3400 canucksnihilist

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:17 PM


Posted ImageEmployeeoftheMonth, on 26 November 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:


I may be reading this wrong or perhaps I wasn't clear but I'm talking about how much an employer would pay on average for their employees salaries (and everything that comes along with that) as well as how much they spend on their product (and all that comes along with that) 35 percent seems really low to me.


the answer is... (insert drumroll).... as little as they can.

welcome to the problem of global capitalism. it is always seeming easier to pay less. at least while the developing world is still developing.

and that mentality gets transferred home, so that the top 1% have 99% of the wealth, and the trend keeps getting worse.

to really distribute wealth, we have a few choices:
* get trade agreements that account for the differences between developing and developed countries (fat chance! there go profits!)
* wait until the developing countries aren't developing countries anymore (see you in a dozen lifetimes or so...)
* wait until energy is virtually free, and then the economy changes (see you in 2 dozen lifetimes or so... solar or cold fusion anyone?)

so. owners are global capitalists. they are used to making insane profits. I am on their side if they could reduce player salary, reduce their profits, and reduce the expense of us going to games live. put a cap on that! the fans should be part of the collective process .... and good luck with that, meaning this whole thing is pointless really.
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#3401 poetica

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:20 PM

Most of those are percentage of total cost.

I thought EOTM was asking % of total revenue.


Good point. Of course, we don't know what the NHL's actual total revenue is, only HRR, so the players' share of HRR actually represents a (possibly significantly) smaller percentage of total revenue, even just by adding back in the deductions owners get to take before players' share is determined.

Even still, this quote from my previous post is relevant....

If your payroll expenditures fall within 15-30% of gross revenue, your business is in a safety zone of sorts with solid footing. Businesses that live within this range tend to be most successful, at least from a payroll perspective. However, there are many businesses, usually within the service industry, who operate with payroll making up more than 50% of their gross revenue.

Source: http://secondwindcon...ted-to-payroll/
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#3402 theminister

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:21 PM

The biggest impact of this, from my initial perspective, is that it allows the negotiation to move forward without a formal offer being presented from either side.

The net effect being that both parties could agree to a settlement without it being viewed as a 'Win" by either party. As it stands now neither side can objectively let the other's CBA proposal be accepted or it will be viewed as capitulation by the other. In essence, it is unbearable from the PA perspective to accept the NHL's deal and vice versa.

This opportunity allows a deal to get done without either party losing face. The only sidebar being that they both already have to a large degree. At this point it's all damage control.

/ I'd still like to see Canadian mediators sitting at the table but, oh well. Onwards and upwards!
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#3403 theminister

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:23 PM

Posted ImageEmployeeoftheMonth, on 26 November 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

I may be reading this wrong or perhaps I wasn't clear but I'm talking about how much an employer would pay on average for their employees salaries (and everything that comes along with that) as well as how much they spend on their product (and all that comes along with that) 35 percent seems really low to me.

the answer is... (insert drumroll).... as little as they can.

welcome to the problem of global capitalism. it is always seeming easier to pay less. at least while the developing world is still developing.

and that mentality gets transferred home, so that the top 1% have 99% of the wealth, and the trend keeps getting worse.

to really distribute wealth, we have a few choices:
* get trade agreements that account for the differences between developing and developed countries (fat chance! there go profits!)
* wait until the developing countries aren't developing countries anymore (see you in a dozen lifetimes or so...)
* wait until energy is virtually free, and then the economy changes (see you in 2 dozen lifetimes or so... solar or cold fusion anyone?)

so. owners are global capitalists. they are used to making insane profits. I am on their side if they could reduce player salary, reduce their profits, and reduce the expense of us going to games live. put a cap on that! the fans should be part of the collective process .... and good luck with that, meaning this whole thing is pointless really.



“There is one rule for industrialists and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible”

Posted Image Henry Ford quotes (American industrialist and pioneer of the assembly-line production method, 1863-1947)
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#3404 Shift-4

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:25 PM

Even still, this quote from my previous post is relevant....

Source: http://secondwindcon...ted-to-payroll/



No offense to you poetica but I didn't really like that link because it didn't reference real data. I look at real data for a living. I don't want some study I want source financial data. So I started looking. PITA. Rona was the only one that was easy to find explicity personnel costs..........and RONA is a lousy example.



Edit: I did find one service heavy company (ADP) which I thought was a good example of an organization that ran personnel costs higher than 50%. After quickly reviewing their financials I still think that is the case. However, I couldn't see any explicit listing of personnel costs.

Edited by Shift-4, 26 November 2012 - 01:29 PM.

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#3405 poetica

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:26 PM

Thanks for posting the tweets about the mediator, playboi19!


Not much additional information at TSN yet, but let's all hope it's a good sign.

U.S. FEDERAL MEDIATORS NOW IN INVOLVED IN NHL/NHLPA TALKS

U.S. federal mediators are now involved in the labour talks between the NHL and NHL Players' Association.

"I have had separate, informal discussions with the key representatives of the National Hockey League and the National Hockey League Players' Association during the course of their negotiations for a successor collective bargaining agreement," said Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service Director George H. Cohen in a statement.

"At the invitation of the FMCS, and with the agreement of both parties, the ongoing negotiations will now be conducted under our auspices. I have assigned Deputy Director Scot L. Beckenbaugh, Director of Mediation Services John Sweeney, and Commissioner Guy Serota to serve as the mediators."

"Due to the extreme sensitivity of these negotiations and consistent with the FMCS's long-standing practice, the Agency will refrain from any public comment concerning the future schedule and/or the status of the negotiations until further notice."

More to follow.

Source: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410329
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#3406 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:27 PM

Pleased to hear a mediator will be involved, this should speed things along for better or worse. In my opinion this is great news for the PA, if both sides present where they started in terms of negotiation, and where they are now, there is no way the league can make the argument that the PA isn't negotiating. The PA will inevitably make the case that black letter contracts are not being honoured, a fact in which the league has no defence.

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#3407 theminister

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:29 PM

“It is not the employer who pays the wages. Employers only handle the money. It is the customer who pays the wages.”

Posted Image Henry Ford quotes (American industrialist and pioneer of the assembly-line production method, 1863-1947)


/ I found this quote while looking for the other one.

Edited by theminister, 26 November 2012 - 01:31 PM.

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#3408 poetica

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:36 PM

No offense to you poetica but I didn't really like that link because it didn't reference real data. I look at real data for a living. I don't want some study I want source financial data. So I started looking. PITA. Rona was the only one that was easy to find explicity personnel costs..........and RONA is a lousy example.


No offense taken. It's definitely a valid point. Unfortunately, as you seem to have found as well, it's hard to find the kind of data we'd need to say definitively, especially given the vast amount of data needed to come up with a standard across even a single industry, much less all of them.

Like you said earlier, it's really up to what the NHL and NHLPA agree to. Last time, the players' share was in line with the percentage players in other pro sports leagues were getting, and this time their agreed 50% will be in line with the other leagues. Perhaps the other pro sports leagues are the only truly comparable businesses anyway.

Edited by poetica, 26 November 2012 - 01:37 PM.

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#3409 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:22 PM

@Real_ESPNLeBrun: Meeting with mediators likely Wednesday.

@Real_ESPNLeBrun: NHL/NHLPA tried mediation twice during last lockout, once in February 2005 before season got cancelled, and once again spring of 2005
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#3410 Heretic

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:49 PM

"Alex Ovechkin says it was stupid for the owners to sign long term deals just to try to cut them later." :picard:

Yes, it was stupid of owners to bend to the players and their agents and give them those stupid contracts and structure them to fit into the cap.
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#3411 Boudrias

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:25 PM

"Alex Ovechkin says it was stupid for the owners to sign long term deals just to try to cut them later." :picard:

Yes, it was stupid of owners to bend to the players and their agents and give them those stupid contracts and structure them to fit into the cap.

I didn't see one player turn down an inflated contract for the 'good' of the game. My mistake Alex Burrows. How many on here were calling for Gillis to pay whatever it took to sign Parise, Doan or Weber?
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#3412 Shift-4

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:28 PM

How many on here were calling for Gillis to pay whatever it took to sign Parise, Doan or Weber?


Everybody that doesn't sign the paycheque
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#3413 Mighty Walrus

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:03 PM

.

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#3414 DeNiro

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:46 PM

Thanks for posting the tweets about the mediator, playboi19!


Not much additional information at TSN yet, but let's all hope it's a good sign.


Source: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410329


They should have done this at the beginning. Unfortunately, the season might be sacrificed because of it.
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#3415 The Bookie

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:56 PM

Progress behind the noise

For just a moment, tune out the rhetoric and the noise.

Don’t listen to any of the verbal grenades lobbed towards Gary Bettman by NHL players. Ignore the recent talk about union decertification. Don’t pay attention to any stories you hear about one side being ready to cave. And don’t even get excited about the news of a federal mediator being involved in the process.

Now ask yourself one simple question: Are the players and owners any closer to coming to terms on a new collective bargaining agreement today than they were six weeks ago?

The answer — once you disregard all of the white noise — is a resounding yes.

And that is why I firmly believe there will be NHL hockey played at some point this season.

The hardliners on both sides would like to paint a picture of this season being in jeopardy. But the truth of the matter is that both sides have shown enough willingness to compromise that a deal is likely imminent. The back and forth we’re seeing in the past two weeks is actually the final stage of the hard negotiations.

When Donald Fehr and the NHLPA staff walked into the league offices last week and presented a new offer, we would be naive to think that Gary Bettman and the board of governors would immediately accept the proposal with open arms. Of course they were going to reject it; that’s what a tough negotiation is all about.

But when speaking to reporters in New York after the meetings concluded last week, Bettman sounded as optimistic as we’ve heard him throughout the whole process.

“Hopefully, there’s some momentum so we can bring this to a conclusion,” he said.

Does that sound like a commissioner who is completely frustrated with the process? There is no way in the world that Bettman would use the words “momentum” and “conclusion” unless there was actually some traction gained in the last round of meetings.

This negotiation may have started on the wrong foot back in July, when the owners declared war on the players with their first offer of a 57-43 split on revenues. But since then, they’ve essentially both agreed that a 50-50 split will work for both parties moving forward.

Do they still have some hurdles to clear in terms of how and when they will to get to 50-50?

Absolutely.

But the major philosophical divide has been bridged, especially since the players have now moved off their position of guaranteed hard dollars. What we’ve learned in the past is that once something is on the table, it never really gets taken off down the road. So now that the players are willing to work off a percentage-based formula for determining the 50-50 split, that will likely be the framework of the deal moving forward.

At one point back in September, these two sides were at war as to what constituted the Hockey Related Revenue (HRR) pie. But gradually, they both came to an agreement on what should be included and that once contentious HRR issue is now in the rear-view mirror.

The contracting issues are the next items on the agenda, but slowly we’re starting to see the erosion of those hurdles as well. The players have moved toward the owners in terms of trying to eliminate back-diving contracts. The news that both sides have agreed to use a federal mediator seems to be another step in the right direction. The next set of meetings will have a neutral third-party to help steer the ship and presumably bring the two sides closer together.



And before that happens, we should also anticipate that both sides will publicly say they’ve made their best offer and there is no more room to manoeuver from their perspective. They’ll both remind you that federal mediation isn’t binding because, after all, the rhetoric and PR spinning has become a major part of this process. But don’t believe any of the hype that is churned out by either side. If you recall, these are the same negotiations that were supposed to have a two-week moratorium this month — yet miraculously managed to reconvene just four days later.

While both sides like to paint the other as the villain, the truth of the matter is that they have both moved toward the middle. The sad thing is that this process has moved along at a glacial pace, robbing us of an entire 82-game season.

When the season was completely wiped out in 2004-05, the two sides did not have any meaningful negotiations from the time the lockout started in September until December. This time, the entire process has a different feel, because we can actually mark some progress over the past two months.

The smart money says that the next important date on the calendar is Dec. 5, when the NHL Board of Governors are scheduled to meet in New York. This will mark the first time that all 30 team representatives are in one room since they gave their unilateral support to Bettman to institute the lockout back in September.

And it’s not a coincidence that Dec. 5 is exactly 10 days away from when the season could start at the earliest, since the league cancelled all games up to and including Dec. 14. My feeling is that the third-party mediation will help this process and the Board of Governors will have something to vote on — giving us legitimate hope that NHL hockey returns before Christmas.

Read more: http://www.ottawacit...l#ixzz2DNNnXm6W

I remember thinking it was weird when they cancelled just two weeks of games in December, after they did October and then November wholesale. As playboi19 has so elequently pointed out several times, this has all felt scripted the whole way along.

I think the aim is to start on the 15th (Saturday, almost every team in the league is playing) with a fallback plan of Boxing Day (12 games scheduled). Call me an optimist (I am) but I think we see NHL hockey at the latest a month from today.

Edited by The Bookie, 26 November 2012 - 05:04 PM.

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#3416 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:15 PM

Adam Proteau@Proteautype
The idea NHL owners have "given" anything at all in this labor war is laughably false. This has been concessionary bargaining at its worst.


100% Correct, this is something Anti-Fehr CDCer's need to realize.
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#3417 theminister

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:32 PM

Apparently one of the mediators, Guy Serota, has already been removed from the process due to inappropriate tweets.

So everyone is guilty of that these days except me it seems.
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#3418 fwybwed

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:33 PM

Pish posh...applesauce....what does he do...he's a journalist...I would not trust a damn thing that he would ever write unless I saw it with mine own eyes....

Just another "journo" trying to create havoc to rowdy up the peasants and create an uprising....{Look what i did guys} lol
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#3419 poetica

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:17 PM

Re: the removal of mediator Serota.

UPDATED: Statement by FMCS Director George H. Cohen on NHL Labor Talks
Release Date: 11/26/2012

Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service Director George H. Cohen has issued a follow-up statement today regarding a mediator assigned to the ongoing labor negotiations between the National Hockey League and the National Hockey League Players Association:

Within one hour after I issued a press release announcing that further negotiations between the NHL and NHLPA would be conducted under the auspices of the FMCS, it has been called to my attention that there are issues involving an allegedly hacked Twitter account associated with Commissioner Guy Serota, one of the mediators I assigned. Accordingly, in order to immediately dispel any cloud on the mediation process, and without regard to the merits of the allegations, I have determined to take immediate action, namely to remove Commissioner Serota from this assignment.

Source: http://www.fmcs.gov/...39&itemID=23889


Also, according to tweets by PIerre LeBrun @ TSN, Serota says (via email) that his Twitter account was hacked. It seems he had the account closed, but an imposter opened a new one under the same name right after. I have no idea if that one has been closed or not.

I still have no idea what the tweets in question said, though.
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#3420 theminister

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:24 PM

Re: the removal of mediator Serota.


Source: http://www.fmcs.gov/...38;itemID=23889


Also, according to tweets by PIerre LeBrun @ TSN, Serota says (via email) that his Twitter account was hacked. It seems he had the account closed, but an imposter opened a new one under the same name right after. I have no idea if that one has been closed or not.

I still have no idea what the tweets in question said, though.


http://www.hockeybuz...Hours/134/47682

Edited by theminister, 26 November 2012 - 06:25 PM.

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