Mauii Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 They're not employees in the sense that you mean. The amount they get paid is tied to revenue. The NHL in a sense is more like a Co-Op than a Corporation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edler's Mind Tricks Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Except that they haven't and the rich owners will never agree to giving up their bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bookie Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Mauii - then why include your employee metaphor? Irrelevant. Neither sides are giving up their bottom line, hence the situation we're in right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bookie Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Here's a succinct article from Gary Lawless at the Winnipeg Free Press: NHL talks: Easier said than done NEW YORK -- They are pushing the boulder up the hill, be it ever so slowly. They may get to the top, but there is still a chance they slip and the rock rolls right over them on its way back to the bottom. The NHL and NHLPA met for the third consecutive day on Thursday and continued to hammer away at each other in an attempt to end the 54-day-old lockout and get the players back on the ice. The two sides have sat across from one another in meeting rooms for over 20 hours this week in the first substantial stretch of bargaining since last season. "I don't really have much to say. We met with the players' association the last three days and we're planning on meeting again (today)," said NHL commissioner Gary Bettman. "But I'm not going to discuss the negotiations or the substance of what we're talking about. I really don't think that would be helpful for the process." NHLPA executive director Don Fehr stayed on the same page as Bettman in terms of revealing any details. "I'm not going to comment on the substance of the discussions at this stage," said Fehr. "I'm not going to characterize it except to say, as I have before, that it's always better when you're meeting than when you're not." A source said late Thursday a deal was several days away -- if one was to be had at all. Progress has been slow and at times the talks have been halting. There has been no conclusion on any of the main sticking points; revenue sharing, contracting rights and the process of guaranteeing the players the full value of already-signed contracts despite a drop in their revenue share from 57 per cent to 50. The bottom line is the two parties are still far apart in a number of areas. Yes, they are talking, but still not always in the same language. "We have work to do and my hope is we can achieve getting a long-term fair agreement in place as quickly as possible so we can play hockey," said Bettman. "Every day that passes I think is critical for the game and our fans." The union made two offers to the league on Wednesday, one on revenue sharing and another on the "make-whole" provision. The league made counter-offers on both issues Thursday. A source said Thursday there is still "significant divide on major issues." The union wants to increase the revenue sharing pot from the current $140 million to $250 million and it also wants to alter the qualifying criteria. The NHLPA introduced a make-whole proposal based on a gradual reduction of the players' hockey related revenue from 57 per cent to 50 per cent over a three-year period, likely beginning at 54 per cent in Year 1 and sliding down to 50 in Year 3. The NHL had asked the union to keep the time and place of meetings this week secret to prevent adding fuel to an already hot subject among the hockey media. For two days the two sides met without the prying eyes of reporters. But on Thursday, frustrated with the slow flow of information, the media uncovered the location and descended upon it late in the afternoon. The union, upon being alerted that the media were waiting outside, quickly agreed to make Fehr available. Once he spoke the league determined they would make Bettman available. Both men greeted the media with jokes. Fehr suggested to the shivering group of about 10 reporters from New York, Winnipeg and Toronto, that they get different jobs. Bettman wanted to know how his hidden lair was uncovered. "How did you find us? You followed the players? Oooohhh. Who did you follow? You won't give up your sources?" said Bettman with a smile on his face. The commissioner would not offer up a characterization of how far along the process had gone and whether it would soon result in the consummation of a deal. "Collective bargaining is a process and it has peaks and valleys and ebbs and flows and it's very tough to handicap," said Bettman. "I don't know what Don said but the fact is we have a lot of work to do and we're working hard. We're in a series of meetings and we'll meet again (today) and hopefully it will lead us to the right place." Fehr said evaluating the day's discussions wouldn't be responsible or accurate immediately following the session. "There's a couple of reasons. But from my end -- anybody from the NHL can speak for themselves -- sometimes when you get into discussions, first of all you've got obligations to report to your constituency first," said the well-tenured labour leader. "The second thing is that you hear some things and you need to think about it and you need to work on it and you need to formulate an appropriate response. And sometimes that becomes more difficult if you've talked publicly about it before you've gone through the work." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Now you're an economist? The economy is improving and will for quite a while. Not that it matters. The NHL grew irrespective of the recession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shift-4 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I wonder, if they have to draw up a new schedule for the season, if they'll put some other big game in place for Jan. 1st, or just schedule a series of iconic rivalry style matchups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shift-4 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Didn't see this posted http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409136 NHLPA'S FEHR SENDS MEMO TO PLAYERS; WORK NEEDED TO BE DONE NHL Players' Association executive director Donald Fehr sent a memo to the players following Thursday's meeting with the league: Today, we met with the NHL off and on over several hours. A number of matters were discussed, including our proposal for a new pension plan, revenue sharing, the players' share and salary cap issues, and the owners' "make whole" concept. Present today were Chris Campoli, Mathieu Darche, Ron Hainsey, Johan Hedberg, Manny Malhotra, and Kevin Westgarth (David Backes was present for part of the day), as well as Mathieu Schneider, Joe Reekie, Steve Webb and Rob Zamuner. No new proposals were exchanged on pension issues, but we will discuss this issue again tomorrow (Friday). We did receive a proposal on revenue sharing in response to the proposal we made this week, but this subject still needs considerable work. In addition, we received a revamped proposal covering players' share and cap issues, their so-called "make whole", and player contracting issues. The owners finally did formally give us their "make whole" idea, which in dollar terms is similar to the discussions Bill Daly had with Steve Fehr a few days ago. While a step forward, a significant gap remains. Moreover, at the same time we were told that the owners want an "immediate reset" to 50/50 (which would significantly reduce the salary cap) and that their proposals to restrict crucial individual contracting rights must be agreed to. As you know, these include - among other things - losing a year of salary arbitration eligibility, allowing the team to file for salary arbitration in any year that the player can file, extending UFA eligibility to age 28 or 8 seasons, limiting contracts to 5 years, and permitting only 5% year to year variability in player contracts. Individually each is bad for players; taken together they would significantly reduce a player's bargaining power and give the owner much more leverage over a player for most if not all of his career. In short, the concessions on future salary we have offered (at least $948 Million to $1.25 Billion over five years, depending on HRR growth) are not enough. We are still being told that more salaries must be conceded, and that very valuable player contracting rights must be surrendered. So, while we are meeting again, and while some steps are being taken, there is still a lot of work to be done and bridges to be crossed before an agreement can be made. We will review today's discussions over night and tomorrow morning before meeting again with the owners. Following our meeting tomorrow with the league, we will be able to provide a broader update. As always, please contact us if you have any questions or comments. Best regards. Don On Wednesday night, the NHLPA tabled new offers regarding revenue sharing and the league's "make whole" provision, with the union suggesting a system where the players' share in revenue reaches 50-50 in the third year of the deal. The NHL and the NHLPA gathered for a fourth straight day of collective bargaining talks on Friday -- the longest run of meetings they've had during these negotiations. After reading it my optimism remains non-existent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UFCanuck Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 The NHL doesn't want to lose another year. Fehr just wants to get the best deal possible, whether that be now or in the summer. I think the NHL will cave, that's what Fehr is banking on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Vintage Canuck- Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 @SNChrisSimpson: Bobby Orr says he feels more positive about a deal being done. Says shame on them if they don't. Listening Gary & Don? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 So they're back to using the media to sway public opinion... There's no way that letter should have ever been released. No doubt that it's a way for the NHLPA to get the facts out to the fans so that they can see that it's the NHL's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Didn't see this posted http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409136 NHLPA'S FEHR SENDS MEMO TO PLAYERS; WORK NEEDED TO BE DONE NHL Players' Association executive director Donald Fehr sent a memo to the players following Thursday's meeting with the league: Today, we met with the NHL off and on over several hours. A number of matters were discussed, including our proposal for a new pension plan, revenue sharing, the players' share and salary cap issues, and the owners' "make whole" concept. Present today were Chris Campoli, Mathieu Darche, Ron Hainsey, Johan Hedberg, Manny Malhotra, and Kevin Westgarth (David Backes was present for part of the day), as well as Mathieu Schneider, Joe Reekie, Steve Webb and Rob Zamuner. No new proposals were exchanged on pension issues, but we will discuss this issue again tomorrow (Friday). We did receive a proposal on revenue sharing in response to the proposal we made this week, but this subject still needs considerable work. In addition, we received a revamped proposal covering players' share and cap issues, their so-called "make whole", and player contracting issues. The owners finally did formally give us their "make whole" idea, which in dollar terms is similar to the discussions Bill Daly had with Steve Fehr a few days ago. While a step forward, a significant gap remains. Moreover, at the same time we were told that the owners want an "immediate reset" to 50/50 (which would significantly reduce the salary cap) and that their proposals to restrict crucial individual contracting rights must be agreed to. As you know, these include - among other things - losing a year of salary arbitration eligibility, allowing the team to file for salary arbitration in any year that the player can file, extending UFA eligibility to age 28 or 8 seasons, limiting contracts to 5 years, and permitting only 5% year to year variability in player contracts. Individually each is bad for players; taken together they would significantly reduce a player's bargaining power and give the owner much more leverage over a player for most if not all of his career. In short, the concessions on future salary we have offered (at least $948 Million to $1.25 Billion over five years, depending on HRR growth) are not enough. We are still being told that more salaries must be conceded, and that very valuable player contracting rights must be surrendered. So, while we are meeting again, and while some steps are being taken, there is still a lot of work to be done and bridges to be crossed before an agreement can be made. We will review today's discussions over night and tomorrow morning before meeting again with the owners. Following our meeting tomorrow with the league, we will be able to provide a broader update. As always, please contact us if you have any questions or comments. Best regards. Don On Wednesday night, the NHLPA tabled new offers regarding revenue sharing and the league's "make whole" provision, with the union suggesting a system where the players' share in revenue reaches 50-50 in the third year of the deal. The NHL and the NHLPA gathered for a fourth straight day of collective bargaining talks on Friday -- the longest run of meetings they've had during these negotiations. After reading it my optimism remains non-existent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Don't expect a deal to be reached anytime soon, if at all. All these meetings are doing is giving fans a false sense of hope. The reality is both sides are still not willing to budge any further on the main issues. So eventually they'll reach a stalemate just like before. These meetings are nothing more than a ploy to keep the NHL in the news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shift-4 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 The reality is both sides are still not willing to budge any further on the main issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goalie13 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 This is the way I see it too. It is like they are getting together to discuss what they don't agree on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shift-4 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Another theory though... I heard on the radio a couple of days ago that Fehr once got screwed in baseball negotiations by his players leaking information. The way I understand it, some of the players were getting excited about what MLB was offering. MLB got word of this and used that information to tighten their offer for the players. The likelihood of a secret getting out is the square of how many people know it. Fehr is very careful about what he lets get out there. I am sure that what we see in the media has little to do with what is actually happening in the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goalie13 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 But what if that memo wasn't supposed to get to the media? I was surprised it was released after all the 'secret meeting places' and 'hush-hush' tone going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Very interesting article. http://www.startribu.../178216921.html Talks between the NHL and NHL Players' Association broke up very quickly this afternoon after a fourth consecutive day of meeting. The league is waiting for the NHLPA to have a conference call with its executive board and negotiating committee before letting them know when they'll reconvene. But talks did not end well today, I am told. The NHL was perplexed by a memo that NHLPA Executive Director Don Fehr sent his 725 constituents on Thursday night that stated there’s a “significant gap” between the two sides, according to multiple NHL sources close to the negotiations. The league feels the memo isn't a fair portrayal of what the owners offered. The memo was obtained by NBC Sports’ Pro Hockey Talk and TSN, and has since been authenticated by the Star Tribune. It can be read below or at the above hyperlinks. The league has been under the impression that the majority of players are ready to get back onto the ice if revenues are split 50/50 and all contracts are honored in full. Several players have told the Star Tribune that in recent days. That’s exactly what the owners have offered the players, the sources say, something Fehr did not spell out in his memo. I have an email into the NHLPA asking if I can talk with Fehr or confirm what I'm about to report below. The league has promised to honor all existing contracts and guarantee players their $1.883 billion share – or 57 percent of last year’s revenue, the sources say. In exchange for going to 50/50 immediately, players would have the reduced part of their salaries (12.3 percent) deferred one or two years, “and the owners will pay them back, plus interest, and it would not go against their share and the league is guaranteeing it no matter where the revenue of the league goes,” said one of the sources. In Year 1, players’ salaries would be reduced about $150 million. The players who have their salaries reduced would get every cent back in a lump payment in Year 2, the source says, plus interest. In Year 2, the players’ salaries would be reduced $61 million. Those players would get that money back plus interest in a lump payment in Year 3, the source says. By Year 3, they'd be "equal" as long as revenues go up by 5 percent. The league also feels "we're there" on revenue sharing, with a source saying that the league is basically willing to go with the NHLPA’s proposal other than a couple issues that need to be talked about. The sources also say it’s untrue that the NHLPA must agree to all the league contract demands. That is negotiable, with the one area the league feels must be stopped are the back-diving contracts. Theoretically though, this should be a somewhat simple bridge to gap because a player would still get his money; he just would no longer get contracts like, "$9 million, $9 million, $9 million, $8 million, .... $1 million," an intent to artifically lower the salary-cap hit. Year by year salaries would be spread out with slight variances if the NHL gets its wish. I'm told one of the NHLPA's demands that the league is not willing to do is pay 100% of the salaries this season no matter how many games are played. If there's a shortended season, the league will want to prorate that, not pay players in full. But it's clear the league is getting very concerned that the players have not been told the nuts and bolts of their 50/50 proposal. And from the players I've talked to, they feel 50/50 plus honoring all contracts is fair once the other contractual issues are negotiated as well. We are at a critical juncture even though many want to point out games started Jan. 20 in 1994-95 and the season wasn't canceled in 2005 until Feb. 16. This is (was actually) a $3.3 billion business. If Fehr is not willing to go to 50/50 at $3.3B, think he will when it's $2.2B, $1.8B? He has spent his entire career fighting the salary cap. There comes a point where revenues become so damaged, it makes it awfully difficult to proceed with a cap. And if that becomes the end game, we're in for a long, long hiatus with no hockey As for pensions, NHL and NHLPA lawyers met for much of the day on that issue, but the league was left waiting for the Fehr Bros. and a handful of players until 4 p.m. ET after originally expecting to meet at 10 a.m. Here is Fehr’s memo to his players Thursday night: Today, we met with the NHL off and on over several hours. A number of matters were discussed, including our proposal for a new pension plan, revenue sharing, the players’ share and salary cap issues, and the owners’ “make whole” concept. Present today were Chris Campoli, Mathieu Darche, Ron Hainsey, Johan Hedberg, Manny Malhotra, and Kevin Westgarth (David Backes was present for part of the day), as well as Mathieu Schneider, Joe Reekie, Steve Webb and Rob Zamuner. No new proposals were exchanged on pension issues, but we will discuss this issue again tomorrow (Friday). We did receive a proposal on revenue sharing in response to the proposal we made this week, but this subject still needs considerable work. In addition, we received a revamped proposal covering players’ share and cap issues, their so-called “make whole”, and player contracting issues. The owners finally did formally give us their “make whole” idea, which in dollar terms is similar to the discussions Bill Daly had with Steve Fehr a few days ago. While a step forward, a significant gap remains. Moreover, at the same time we were told that the owners want an “immediate reset” to 50/50 (which would significantly reduce the salary cap) and that their proposals to restrict crucial individual contracting rights must be agreed to. As you know, these include – among other things – losing a year of salary arbitration eligibility, allowing the team to file for salary arbitration in any year that the player can file, extending UFA eligibility to age 28 or 8 seasons, limiting contracts to 5 years, and permitting only 5% year to year variability in player contracts. Individually each is bad for players; taken together they would significantly reduce a player’s bargaining power and give the owner much more leverage over a player for most if not all of his career. In short, the concessions on future salary we have offered (at least $948 Million to $1.25 Billion over five years, depending on HRR growth) are not enough. We are still being told that more salaries must be conceded, and that very valuable player contracting rights must be surrendered. So, while we are meeting again, and while some steps are being taken, there is still a lot of work to be done and bridges to be crossed before an agreement can be made. We will review today’s discussions over night and tomorrow morning before meeting again with the owners. Following our meeting tomorrow with the league, we will be able to provide a broader update. As always, please contact us if you have any questions or comments. Best regards. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Vintage Canuck- Posted November 10, 2012 Author Share Posted November 10, 2012 @RenLavoieRDS The NHL is putting 211 million in the make whole. Will be interesting to see how the NHLPA will react. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ossi Vaananen Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 So the PA asked for 250 mil, which is what they expect the loss in contracts to be, and the NHL is offering 211 mil? Is this difference seriously what's holing the deal up? This has to be a joke, 39 mil between 30 owners is nothing, they lose more than that for every game that's cancelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UFCanuck Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Make the Boston Owner come up with the rest for employing a team full of assholes. Rat Bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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