*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread

[Canucks_fo_life]

Theyre that close to a deal, cant believe theyre gonna fight and claw to get every little thing they can out of the deal, my prediction in September was a mid November start, gonna push that back to last week of November now

[stexx]

@RenLavoieRDS

The NHL is putting 211 million in the make whole. Will be interesting to see how the NHLPA will react.

i think the nhlpa wanted 250mil in the revenue sharing? i dont think they ever gave a number of $ they wanted for the makewhole besides 100%.

[Canucks_4_Cup]

So the PA asked for 250 mil, which is what they expect the loss in contracts to be, and the NHL is offering 211 mil? Is this difference seriously what's holing the deal up? This has to be a joke, 39 mil between 30 owners is nothing, they lose more than that for every game that's cancelled.

[Ossi Vaananen]

It's not as simple as that. Read this part of the article two posts above yours:

[WHL rocks]

LP

[-Vintage Canuck-]

Flyers owner Ed Snider 'awfully disappointed' with NHL labour situation:

On the 55th day of the NHL lockout, Philadelphia Flyers owner Ed Snider finally had a good reason to hit the rink.

Snider attended the grand opening of the fourth refurbished city rink as part of his youth hockey foundation, which provides free skating programs, ice hockey instruction, equipment and academic services to inner-city children.

The neglected, open-air rinks have been transformed as part of a $13 million US restoration project into reconstructed, closed rinks worthy of an NHL practice facility.

Snider, the Flyers' founder and chairman, has often said he wants the project to become his true legacy. The foundation's services are targeted for inner-city boys and girls who otherwise would not have the opportunity to learn to skate or to play ice hockey. The program has rapidly grown to include over 3,000 students.

"When I see what we've accomplished with these four magnificent, beautiful rinks, I have a great deal of pride seeing this happen," Snider said Friday night. "It's become a very big part of my life."

'I'm awfully disappointed that we're not playing hockey, but there's not a thing I can do about it except just keep my fingers crossed and hope somehow it can come together.'—Flyers owner Ed Snider

But nothing is as big as running the Flyers. The Flyers, who won the Stanley Cup in 1974 and 1975, would have been off Friday night with a date against Carolina on Saturday at the Wells Fargo Center. Instead, the 55-day lockout has forced the cancellation of 327 regular-season games, including the New Year's Day Winter Classic in Michigan, and ensured that a full season won't be played.

"I'm awfully disappointed that we're not playing hockey, but there's not a thing I can do about it except just keep my fingers crossed and hope somehow it can come together," Snider said.

He declined to otherwise discuss the labour strife.

Mayor Michael Nutter joined Snider and hundreds of kids at the dedication of the Tarken Ice Rink in northeast Philadelphia. Snider founded his organization in 2005 and jumped into action when budget cuts were set to close three city ice rinks unless private funding could be found. Snider contributed $6.5 million to match a grant from the Commonwealth's Redevelopment Assistance Capital Program. Early last year, Snider Hockey reached a 20-year agreement with the city and the Philadelphia Industrial Development Corporation to extend its partnership through 2030.

The rinks include classrooms and learning labs that provide year-round afterschool programming. Snider would like to expand the program into areas outside of Philadelphia like Chester and Allentown.

"I think through the years, you're going to see it become a much bigger program. Our goal is 10,000 kids," Snider said. "This is nothing to do with my profession. This has to do with my desire to help inner-city kids. I get such satisfaction when I get letters from kids and their parents and how much they've accomplished. I can't think of any other way that I could be more satisfied, except maybe another Cup."

It's hard to say if the Flyers, or any other team, will get a chance this season to play for the Stanley Cup.

"I sure hope so," Snider said.

Nutter said the city needs the Flyers to start playing again.

"Of course they do, they provide jobs and economic vitality," he said.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/story/2012/11/09/sp-ed-snyder-disappointed-nhl-lockout.html

[Remy]

LP

[-Vintage Canuck-]

A great article on today's CBA talks from Michael Grange:

New York -- Remember when the negotiations between the NHL and the players association were being held in a secret place?

Remember when there was little discussion or leaks or even speculation about what the substance of the talks covered?

If you're a hockey fan, remember those days earlier this week - otherwise known as Tuesday and Wednesday, with a faint hint of Thursday - fondly.

Because Friday blew them all to hell. Let's just hope that the prospect of an NHL season - or at least a meaningful one that starts before Christmas didn't go down in flames with it.

It's hard to summarize where the spin starts and ends, but simply put: nearly five months since negotiations on a new CBA began and entering Day 56 of the lockout there is no trust, there is very little common ground and rather than two sides inching ever closer together, they seem to be digging in.

There were multiple items on the agenda of three separate meetings at the NHL' s law offices near Times Square, but the only one that mattered was the final session involving how to split league revenues and what the future of the contracts rights between the players and the owners might be.

For just a sample of how things are going, consider NHLPA executive Don Fehr's explanation of how one line of discussion went:

"At one point the question was asked [of the owners]: If the players were to agree - which they're not prepared to do - to everything in your financial proposal, what you're saying is you still won't make an agreement unless we give up everything in all the player contracting rights in your proposal. The answer was yes, that's what we want.

"Now that's not a direct quote, but one wonders if that's the case how you get there from here."

Great question.

That meeting broke up at about 6:00 p.m. and a flustered seeming NHLPA executive director made no comment other than he had "some things to consider" before rushing off to a scheduled conference call with his negotiation committee and team player reps, a group of about 60.

NHL commissioner Gary Bettman soon emerged and also had little say, other than they were prepared to meet through the weekend and he would even refrain from attending the Hockey Hall of Fame induction ceremonies in Toronto on Monday if CBA talks required it. "Whatever it takes," he said.

The commissioner may have looked calm but he belied the furious paddling going on underneath the surface.

First came a report from the Minnesota Tribune's Michael Russo that the owners were angry that the substance of their offer to the players on Thursday hadn't been properly communicated to the players in a memo from Fehr that surfaced Friday morning.

In it Fehr emphasized the owner’s determination to immediately reset players' share of HRR to 50-50 in the first year of a deal but offered no detail on the owners so-called 'make whole provision'.

Details later emerged the owners did want the players to take a 50 per cent share of HRR immediately (down from their 57 per cent share last year) but were willing to guarantee $211 million in deferred money that would be paid out in years two and years three, with interest.

Meanwhile reports - inaccurate it turns out - began circulating that the players were seeking a deal that started at what their share was last year ($1.883-billion) and increased in guaranteed increments of five per cent annually.

Not surprisingly Don Fehr was eager to address this. If there was one issue that struck closer to the bone than the rest it was the implication that he's been less than transparent with his members.

"First of all, understand [the players'] proposal is made in front of players, in the room, here," Fehr said. "It's made in front of staff, it's made in front of former players who hear it. They're on the phone, talking about it … owners can't come to the meetings and hear for themselves, but every single player can at the union's expense.

"It is accurate to say if you write a memo and it's a quick one, you necessarily have to summarize," he said. "But everything we do in terms of communications ends with 'if you have a question, contact us.' We let them know if they want to come to a meeting contact us and they will have a plane ticket and a hotel room."

As for the substance of the owners' 'make whole' proposal, Fehr wasn't all that enthused either: "If the notion is they're honouring all the contracts and everyone is getting paid what they're supposed to be paid according to the letter of the contracts that's not true and never has been," he said. "I don't know where that notion came from."

And finally he clarified the players' proposal, acknowledging that the players do want to use the $1.883-billion they earned in aggregate last year as a starting point, but that the increases through the life of the agreement would be 1.75 per cent of HRR.

Those that have been following the lockout closely would recognize the problem there however: the owners only want to play the players about $1.65 billion next year.

How to bridge the gap between the roughly $1.91 billion the players want to be paid next year and what the owners are willing to pay them remains a massive issue in a labour negotiation that is going nowhere at the moment.

And here's another bit of sunshine for you: in the midst of the back-and-forth Friday emerged another new front in a battle in which both sides are bleeding, the only question being how badly.

The players have indicated that they expect to be paid their full share for the 2012-13 season, regardless of how many games are played. The owners, in other words, should pay every cent of the costs incurred by the lockout.

If you don't think things have gotten contentious yet, wait till they start trying to hash that one out.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/2012/11/09/grange_cba_all_talk_no_trust_no_progress/

[Smashian Kassian]

I'm well aware of the discrepancy between the PA and the NHL as to how to get to 50%. I read the article before posting, and have been kept informed about the entire process. The section you quoted talks extensively about contractual freedoms, something in which I think should be preserved for the players. Now how exactly does this relate to the 211m towards the make-whole provision?

With the make whole provision, the CBA could reduce to 50% immediately, while honouring previously signed contracts with the 211m put aside (from the owner's side). Perhaps you should reread the article, as both sides have stated endlessly that division of HHR and honouring signed contracts are the biggest obstacles towards a deal being broken.

[Ossi Vaananen]

No Canucks_4_Cup's point in replying was that there was more than just what you said about the make whole provision that separates them.

So he just used that article to show some of the other issue's the two sides are stuck on.

[The Bookie]

From the ever-excellent Harrison Mooney at Puck Daddy (also Pass It To Bulis locally):

Did Donald Fehr’s memo intentionally misrepresent the NHL’s offer?

The NHL and the NHLPA met for the fourth consecutive day on Friday in their attempt to come to a new collective bargaining agreement. By most accounts it was a lot like Thursday: they got very little done. (You can be outraged by this, but I remind you that spending an entire Friday at the office while accomplishing next to nothing is pretty much an American tradition.)

But it's not as though we didn't hear from either side today. In the morning, a memo from Donald Fehr to the players somehow magically found its way into the hands of NHL broadcast partners NBC and TSN. In it, Fehr did not seem all that enthused by the direction of the meetings, mentioning "significant gaps".

Some in the hockey world felt that Fehr was being overly pessimistic. I would argue that he was beingconsciously pessimistic, if not just realistic. Considering the players are, by his own admission, a little frightened, the last thing you want to do is get their hopes up and then have to tell them that there's been a setback. Managing the emotional response of the 700-plus constituents on that mailing list is a large part of the gig.

But how did the NHL feel about Fehr's memo? Not great, and it wasn't the tone they disliked so much as the content.

They felt those 700-plus constituents were misled, because Fehr misrepresented their offer.

According to Mike Russo, the league has offered an immediate 50/50 split with contracts paid in full, just as the players wanted, and yet, for whatever reason, Fehr's memo left that out. From the Star Tribune:

The league has been under the impression that the majority of players are ready to get back onto the ice if revenues are split 50/50 and all contracts are honored in full. Several players have told the Star Tribune that in recent days.

That's exactly what the owners have offered the players, the sources say, something Fehr did not spell out in his memo.

The League's plan to deal with the salary reductions created by an immediate shift to a 50/50 revenue split is simple: lump-sum payments in the second and third years of the CBA.

According to Russo's source, "the league feels 'we're there' on revenue sharing", the big issue, and yet Fehr chose not to mention that to the players.

So what gives? Has Donald Fehr gone rogue like David from Prometheus and withheld valuable information to further some alternative agenda? Did he put alien goo in Manny Malhotra's drink? Did Fehr find the star map highlighting earth?!

Yeah, probably not.

It's worth noting that this isn't the first time Fehr has been accused of dishonesty. Three weeks ago, just prior to the NHL pulling the offer that would have saved the 82-game schedule, we learned that the league felt Fehr was being dishonest. Bill Daly said the players' 50/50 offer had been misrepresented.

Then there was this paragraph from Bruce Arthur of the National Post on October 18th:

The league has reached the point where it does not believe Fehr speaks for the players, and has hijacked the negotiations to suit his own ends. They believe they are dealing with the one person in this entire negotiation with nothing to lose, and since Fehr is the one guy in this mess who could walk away afterwards and never think about hockey again, they may even be right.

In short, Fehr's not thinking in the game's best interest because he doesn't care about the game. That's what the NHL was intimating on October 18th. Now, it would appear, after a week of negotiations that didn't make the progress they wanted, the league is beginning to intimate a little harder.

To that end, Russo -- and Larry Brooks -- also let us in on a new demand from the union via these sources, which is that the players, with no regard for a lockout-shortened season, want the same dollar amount of revenue that they got last year. Plus five per cent. According to Brooks, that would likely eat up around two-thirds of revenue in a 66-game season. Now that just sounds crazy unreasonable.

Also, Fehr kept Bettman and Daly waiting for six hours today for no reason.

Why, it seems like the only reason a deal wasn't struck this week is because Donald Fehr is a complete and utter megalo-- wait.

I do believe that Donald Fehr is being character-assassinated.

It's a good tactic, really, especially considering that confidence the players have in this union head as compared to his predecessors. Fehr has been adamant about strong communication with the players since day one, and numerous players have raved about his communication, but if the league can sell the notion that Fehr is shady and withholding, just like all of the union's other bad relationships, they're one step closer to getting the players to fold.

Will it work? Fehr categorically denied that he was withholding information after the talks. Craig Adams echoed this to Rob Rossi of the Pittsburgh Tribune. "If anybody is suggesting that Don's holding information back," he said, "that's totally untrue."

Also, you feel like one of the players that's been in the meetings with Fehr all week might have said something if he was. Unless Fehr got to them.

As for the league's proposal, Fehr said it didn't do what the League said it did. "With their make whole proposal, players won't be able to receive every dollar of their deal." And as for that crazy request for, like, all of this season's revenue, John Shannon was told it was the basis of a new system, not the player's revenue share in a shortened season.

In short, even if Fehr is dabbling in the dark arts of misinformation, he's hardly the only one. Does this shock you? It shouldn't.

All that said, if there was any optimism about this week's talks (and I expressed some myself yesterday), I'd say it's time to couch it again. This is a personal attack we're witnessing. While I'm no economist, I am a married man, and if there's one thing I know about heated discussions, it's this: the moment they devolve into personal attacks, things are going very, very badly.

[lorentjd]

I'm seriously starting to think: At this point, just bag this season. I was very excited about the start of this season this past summer. This fighting between the league and the players just sucks the life out of NHL hockey. I'm starting not to care.

[canuckelhead70]

Now compare the NFL approach to the NHL’s revenue-sharing system. To start, national TV revenues for the NHL are low compared with what the other leagues get from their TV contracts. Although the numbers have not yet been officially announced, a new, 10-year contract with NBC and Versus will boost the league’s U.S. national TV revenues to $200 million annually in the 2011–12 season—up from $75 million last season. In Canada, the CBC pays the NHL about $100 million in broadcast fees annually, and TSN reportedly pays about $40 million a year in broadcast fees. With total national TV revenues of less than $350 million, the bulk of the revenue shared among NHL teams comes directly out of the wealthier teams’ pockets—a key difference.

The NHL’s complex revenue-sharing system is part of the collective bargaining agreement reached with the players. Under that system, a team is eligible for what the league calls “revenue-sharing subsidies” if its attendance is in the bottom half of the league and if its demographic market area has fewer than 2.5 million TV households. A team must also have average paid attendance of at least 14,000 per game to fully qualify for the revenue-sharing subsidies. In practice, the NHL’s revenue-sharing system means that most—if not all—of the six Canadian NHL franchises, plus the richer U.S. franchises, are subsidizing weaker franchises in places like Phoenix and Florida. (Some franchises have reportedly been buying up their own tickets in order to get to the minimum attendance level and thereby qualify for the subsidies.)

Why would the NHL provide subsidies to it weaker franchises? Protecting the current and future value of the stronger franchises is the principal reason. The bankruptcy of any franchise is not a good signal to send to prospective investors in other NHL franchises, and simply moving franchises between cities means there are no franchise expansion fees to share. (While the deal to move the Atlanta Thrashers to Winnipeg does include a $60-million relocation fee, that amount is far less than what the league would receive from the owners of a new franchise. Only when the ongoing costs of subsidizing a struggling franchise become uncomfortably large does the relocation of a weak franchise become an attractive idea to the other franchise owners.) A secondary reason for the NHL to provide occasional subsidies to weaker franchises is to maintain its profile in prime television markets—a key to winning larger U.S. national TV contracts in future.

Overall, the NHL’s revenue-sharing and subsidy system is messy and creates conditions for divisiveness among franchises.

NHLPA what happens if the CDN dollar starts to tank. The bread and butter teams that are funding revenue sharing are going to be in some trouble. Does the NHLPA honestly see revenues growing next year when they play hockey after a lockout? 3.3B is going to down to 2. something B, lowering the salary cap giving the players less money for the future. I believe this time it's going to take a lot longer for revenues to reach 3.3B again after this is settled. But hey not going form 57% to 50% right off the bat was clearly worth it.

[Ghostsof1915]

The longer this drags on, the less revenue both sides are going to get. The last lockout I saw fans desperate for hockey to come back. This time it's different. We're in more difficult times, the economy is not strong. I really think the NHL is in serious trouble because marking "welcome back fans" on the ice won't bring fans back this time. There will always be the diehards to come back.

But all the fans that buy merchandise, jerseys, I'm pretty sure even at 50% off there's going to be a lot of animosity this time.

The NHL is making a huge mistake. When you take your customers for granted, people will find other places to spend money.

[Standing_Tall#37]

The longer this drags on, the less revenue both sides are going to get. The last lockout I saw fans desperate for hockey to come back. This time it's different. We're in more difficult times, the economy is not strong. I really think the NHL is in serious trouble because marking "welcome back fans" on the ice won't bring fans back this time. There will always be the diehards to come back.

But all the fans that buy merchandise, jerseys, I'm pretty sure even at 50% off there's going to be a lot of animosity this time.

The NHL is making a huge mistake. When you take your customers for granted, people will find other places to spend money.

[WiDeN]

Are you saying that you aren't going to be back, or are you also a sheep?

I'll be back watching the NHL. I don't feel so baaaaaaaaad.

[The Bookie]

NHL must negotiate with Fehr, not attack him

12:10PM EST November 10. 2012 - At best, an unidentified NHL official exercised poor judgment in accusing NHL Players Association executive director Donald Fehr of not fully informing his constituents of the NHL's offer.

At worst, owners are embracing a misguided, counter-productive strategy

Anyone who believes owners can bring about peace with players by trying to discredit their leader has not been watching how Fehr has managed this organization.

STORY: What happened in Friday's talks

All you need to do is talk to Fehr for 10 minutes and you realize that he's a union man the way Derek Jeter is a Yankee and Mick Jagger is a Rolling Stone. Transparency. Inclusiveness. Getting more people involved. Fehr doesn't just talk about those ideas. It's clear he believes in them. He has said continually that every player is welcome at every bargaining session.

One of the constant quotes you get from players, often unsolicited, is how well-informed everyone is about the issues.

The targeting of Fehr resulted from his Thursday night memo in which he didn't go into elaborate detail about the owners' proposal. Owners want to reduce players' share of the revenue from 57% to 50% and players say they will only accept a 50-50 split that includes a gradual walk-down that assures the preservation of their already-signed contract values. In response to that request, owners say they will commit $211 million back to players over the first two seasons.

Under the drop from 57% to 50%, players would lose more than $461 million over two years, not counting revenue growth. Hence, owners, through their proposal, are offering to return roughly 45% of player losses for those two years.

About the owners' "make whole" offer, Fehr wrote: "While a small step forward, a significant gap remains."

This memo came after players had the opportunity to climb aboard a conference call to hear about the offers in detail. If a player doesn't know what's happening in the bargaining session, it isn't Fehr's fault.

BLOG: Support flows in for Fehr

Fehr is often vilified by fans because he represented major league baseball players when a 1994 strike cost the sport its postseason, but the truth is Fehr is always respected and lionized by those he represents. He's an impressive guy, and his guys will stand up for him.

An NHLPA spokesman offered a one-word expletive as his unofficial response to the Fehr targeting, and it seemed like a perfect response. Players clearly viewed the Fehr attack as pure malarkey.

Owners aren't going to get this deal by trying to tug on Superman's cape. There is no kryptonite that will bring down Fehr. This is not 2004-05.

This battle with players has been about the money from the beginning, and it will only be settled when the money is right. By dropping players from 57% to 50%, owners are trying to gain about $1.6 billion over a six-year period.

In the make whole offer, owners are reducing that take by about $211 million. That's not enough to protect the value of contracts already signed. They will reduce their percentage, but they are adamant about protecting their signed contracts.

How much does the make whole pool have to grow to get players to agree? Some say it is another $370 million, plus the league agreeing to back off on the vast majority of their demands for changes to free agency, arbitration and contract lengths.

Would you consider the sides too far apart to get a deal done? That's an average of more than $12 million per team over the course of six years. Could a deal get done if the NHL added another $100 million to the make-whole pool. Would owners do that? How about $150 million?

The answer is that we don't know. The only way we are going to know if the two sides continue to talk every day without the distractions of finger-pointing, name-calling or personal attacks. Regardless of whether you like Fehr, talking to him in this situation is a more effective strategy than talking about him.

[-Vintage Canuck-]

@TEAM1040

Still no word on whether or not any #CBA meetings are scheduled for later today. Both sides touched base this morning to discuss.

[-Vintage Canuck-]

@RenLavoieRDS

JS Giguère:"We are well inform with the PA. We know what's going on and we are 100% behind Don Fehr and his staff....

@RenLavoieRDS

...We made concession of 1 billion dollar + and we have nothing in return. This is unacceptable. "

[Smashian Kassian]

And I addressed that in saying the division of HHR and make whole provisions are the greatest obstacles towards a deal being signed, everything else is secondary.

Maybe you should stick to proposals, this is over your head.