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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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“There will ultimately be a new collective bargaining agreement, but the 2011-12 season is now in jeopardy.”

That was NBA commissioner David Stern on Nov. 14 of last year, a mere 11 days before reports of a tentative agreement between the league and the union began to surface.

They were back on the court playing on Dec. 16.

And there’s little question there are some parallels between what’s currently happening in hockey.

The one saying I’ve been thinking of the past week or so when it comes to the NHL lockout is that “it’s always the darkest before dawn.”

Cliché? Sure. But that’s exactly what we’re dealing with here.

These negotiations between Gary Bettman and Donald Fehr were always going to be difficult. Heck they were always going to be a clusterbeep. Two smart men who know this game and who are trying to get the best of one another while pushing the boundaries of what they can coax out of the other side.

There were always going to be casualties here - and by casualties, I mean hockey games missed.

Did anyone really think we would have a season of more than 60 games? Would anyone have been surprised if, coming in, they were told the endgame of all of this was similar to the 48-game season we had in 1994-95?

The path to that shortened season isn’t an easy one. It’s going to involve plenty of ultimatums and leaks to the media about how this really is the last chance to get a deal done.

The fact is that we’re so far from a full season being cancelled that it’s not even worth contemplating at this point. If you’re looking for a real timeline for when that becomes a possibility, we’re probably looking at eight weeks from now - which would take the talks (or non-talks) to Jan. 10 or so.

That would be dire times right there - and if no progress is made between now and then, you better believe the season is likely in jeopardy.

The thing is, however, this lockout only started, officially speaking, eight weeks ago. If you accept that end point I’ve laid out as in the right part of the timeline, we’re only at halftime right now.

Sure it’s dark. And yes they’re angry at one another and not talking. But to say there hasn’t been any progress in the last eight weeks (or even two weeks) is just flat out wrong.

Financially speaking, we’re talking about two sides that are only $300-million or so apart in their proposals over the next five years. Even closer if you factor in what prorating the Year 1 salaries would do, which is the likely next step by the NHLPA.

Contractually speaking, there are three key issues at play and, while both sides are standing firm, they also indicate there’s some room to talk about their differences.

This isn’t the stuff of Armageddon. It may be frustrating and it may be ridiculous, but it’s not the end of the line, by any means.

(Especially if you consider that, to this point, the NHL believes 2012-13 revenues have only been impacted by about $350- to $400-million or 10 to 12 per cent.)

Now, it’s widely expected that, in the next week or so, the league will cancel more games, likely taking them to Dec. 15. That announcement will be greeted with the same doom and gloom you’re hearing and reading all over, but again, not the end of the world.

According to The Canadian Press’ Chris Johnston, however, the NHL would have been able to play a 68-game season if they were able to start it on Dec. 1. The only thing these new cancellations are going to mean is that we’re dealing with a shorter season than that.

Which seems a given anyway.

Both sides here are looking for pressure points, and what this really is is a game of chicken.

“How late can we go? When will the other side get desperate and crack?”

Unfortunately, we’re not at those breaking points yet, and the earliest there will likely be any games is mid-December (when the NBA began its own 66-game season a year ago).

But, then again, this is where we were always headed coming into this mess. The negotiations really aren’t in any different a place than was predictable and the final agreement is – despite all the rhetoric out there – closer to being realized than ever.

Even if dawn is still a ways off.

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LOL at everyone thinking or hoping the season can be salvaged. I've said it once since the negotiations started I'll say it again. The season will be cancelled. There is also a big possibility that the lockout extends to next season. You can quote me on this,

Now, go get some hobby or try to like the NBA.

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BETTMAN SUGGESTS TO NHLPA SIDES TAKE A BREAK IN NEGOTIATIONS

TORONTO -- With another chunk of the NHL schedule in danger of being cancelled, about the only thing the league and NHL Players' Association are talking about is taking a break.

Gary Bettman contacted Donald Fehr on Wednesday and suggested the sides place a two-week moratorium on negotiations, two sources confirmed to The Canadian Press on Thursday night.

A response has yet to be given. Fehr, the NHLPA's executive director, told the NHL commissioner he wanted to take the offer to his membership before providing an answer.

The requested break comes after talks fell silent following six consecutive days of meetings between the sides last week in New York. It was clear by the end of that run that pessimism and some bad feelings had made their way into the proceedings.

"We are extremely disappointed in where we and the Players find ourselves," deputy commissioner Bill Daly told TSN. "And from our perspective, we have made repeated moves in the Players' direction with absolutely no reciprocation. Unfortunately, we have determined we are involved with Union leadership that has no genuine interest in reaching an agreement. Regardless of what we propose, or how we suggest to compromise the answer is "no." At some point you just have to say "enough is enough".

The league is close to making another round of game cancellations, prompting some to suggest the season was in danger. Asked about that possibility on Thursday morning, Daly replied: "I hope not."

"But I'm more discouraged now than I have been at any point in the process," Daly added.

The NHL is expected to start wiping games beyond Nov. 30 off the schedule early next week. There had previously been hope for a shortened 68-game season starting Dec. 1, but that now appears to be gone.

In total, the lockout has already forced the cancellation of 327 games, including the Winter Classic between the Maple Leafs and Red Wings at Michigan Stadium. The league's other big mid-season event -- the Jan. 27 all-star game at Nationwide Arena in Columbus -- is also expected to be formally cancelled in the near future.

Earlier this week, NHLPA special counsel Steve Fehr indicated that he thought a new CBA could be completed quickly once a breakthrough was made in negotiations.

"One thing Bill Daly and I agree upon is that when the moment is right the deal could be done very quickly," Fehr said Monday. "One days, three days or whatever."

The right moment doesn't appear to be forthcoming. Fehr acknowledged that the union and league remained split on three major issues: the division of money, player contract rights and who pays for the damage caused by the lockout.

The lack of progress in talks has started raising fears that the NHL might lose another year to a labour dispute. Even though the 2004-05 season was cancelled by commissioner Gary Bettman on Feb. 16, it's believed the league wouldn't put the decision off that long if the 2012-13 season is to meet the same fate.

A deal that saved a 48-game season after the 1994-95 lockout was signed on Jan. 11.

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Darren Dreger@DarrenDreger

Series of Daly quotes on league initiated hiatus: "We have made repeated moves in the Players' direction with absolutely no reciprocation."

Daly: "unfortunately, we have determined we are involved with Union leadership that has no genuine interest in reaching an agreement."

Daly: "Regardless of what we propose or how we suggest to compromise the answer is "no," At some pt you have to say "enough is enough".

ouch. harsh words from the NHL today on the state of the NHLPA leadership. I find it funny that the PA says the league wont negotiate and their offers are all "take it over leave it" and the NHL is saying the exact same thing about the NHLPA.

I think it is time for mediation.

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/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=10980313">snapback.pngpoetica, on 15 November 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

People keep saying that and I'm curious, where did this idea come from? What kind of business model allows an owner to personally take home more than all of their employees collectively? None that I've ever heard of.

Are you confused? I never said that NHL owners make more profit than their employees. I was responding to you saying,

I asked, very clearly even in the 3 sentences you quoted in your reply, where this idea came from. I then went on to point out, citing multiple sources might I add, that the percentage players receive is not out of line with what employees in other service industries make. You are the one who was complaining that employees got more of the revenue than the owner got as if there were some (legal) business model where that was not true.

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So, as many of you know, the commissioner came out today and suggested they take a two week break in negotiations.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409553

Is there anyone left who honestly believes hiring Fehr has HELPED the union at all. The owners are basically laughing at Fehr at this point.

Either Fehr gives into the owners demands, or there is no hockey. What a bunch of dummies the NHLPA is.

They need Fehr to step down and come back to the table with a fresh credibility.

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What I was saying is, if You are an owner of a Hockey team or Business, would You not be upset if just ONE (but actually several) Employees were actually taking home more money than You at the end of the Year from the Operation?

To say that they shouldnt have teams there then (which I agree) Hurts many NHL players looking to be rich and employed.

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Report: If no deal in seven days, games to be canceled through December 15

The NHL and NHLPA spent today not meeting about a new Collective Bargaining Agreement and now another deadline is on the horizon.

Chris Botta from Sports Business Journal reports that if a deal isn’t worked out in the next seven days, games through December 15 will be canceled. Botta adds that a “drop dead date” may come after that as the threat of wiping out the entire season might be the only thing to help the players and owners get things figured out.

Things ended on a poor note after Sunday’s talks concluded with a battle over contract rights becoming the latest roadblockto labor peace. Both NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly andNHLPA Executive Director Donald Fehr expressed frustrations in that meeting.

Meanwhile, NHLPA Special Counsel Steve Fehr says “when the moment is right, a deal will be done quickly.” That time doesn’t appear to be the presen

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I'm coming around the Deniro's point that a deal is close but the league is deliberately shortening the season for some owners (including itself with respect to Phoenix). Read in that light, the comments of both sides imply that they are both on the same page and the PA is simply waiting for the NHL to go "Okay, we aren't gonna screw you over on contracts" once the owners give the signal (if they haven't got a pre-decided date already).

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I'm coming around the Deniro's point that a deal is close but the league is deliberately shortening the season for some owners (including itself with respect to Phoenix). Read in that light, the comments of both sides imply that they are both on the same page and the PA is simply waiting for the NHL to go "Okay, we aren't gonna screw you over on contracts" once the owners give the signal (if they haven't got a pre-decided date already).

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The only problem I have with that is it means that a percentage of what I save to go see my one game a year in Vancouver is actually going to pay for an empty seat in Phoenix, Florida, Dallas, wherever.

It may be the team's revenue, but it was my money before that, and I feel like the NHL and the PA forget that sometimes.

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