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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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#4111 CCF4E

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:02 PM

Sorry guys, it's not happening. Don't get your hopes up.

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Ehrhoff isn't from europe....


#4112 gizmo2337

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:08 PM


Chris Botta@ChrisBottaNHL

NHL possibly playing on Christmas? Good to see we're past core economic issues and on to minor Clauses.


Best news I've heard in a while. Ho Ho Ho! Hopefully Bettman gets bought out in new CBA (8 million a year .. and not living up to expectations). Savings get sent to tomorrows media pizza fund. 57% of the leftovers go to food bank. The other 43% goes to the owners for Fridays meeting.
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#4113 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:15 PM

Man if the Canucks lose a game on Christmas, I'll be pissed.
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#4114 grandmaster

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:20 PM

Things are looking pretty good...for now
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#4115 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:27 PM

@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Bill Daly at the podium. Says good candid dialogue. Says still remains critical issues between sides.
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#4116 DeNiro

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:38 PM

They really don't sound like they're close to a deal.

Media hyping things up again I guess.
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#4117 Edler's Mind Tricks

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:49 PM

Man if the Canucks lose a game on Christmas, I'll be pissed.

Seriously dude? I'd be ecstatic if they were playing on Christmas! I wouldn't even freaking care if they lost to the Hawks.
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#4118 Tyler83

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:53 PM

John Shannon@JSportsnet
League proposed increasing "make whole" provision to 300 Million Dollars.

John Shannon@JSportsnet
League proposed that UFA and Arbitration rules stayed same as last CBA...27 and 4 Years Pro.

John Shannon@JSportsnet
League would not budge on Contract Term or Variance... 5 Years... 5%

John Shannon@JSportsnet
There would be an exception for signing your own Free Agent...7 Year Contracts.

Edited by Tyler83, 06 December 2012 - 12:04 AM.

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#4119 theminister

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:54 PM

That all seems pretty damn reasonable.
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#4120 DeNiro

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:58 PM

John Shannon@JSportsnet
Leagued proposed increasing "make whole" provision to 300 Million Dollars.

John Shannon@JSportsnet
League proposed that UFA and Arbitration rules stayed same as last CBA...27 and 4 Years Pro.

John Shannon@JSportsnet
League would not budge on Contract Term or Variance... 5 Years... 5%

John Shannon@JSportsnet
There would an exception for signing your own Free Agent...7 Year Contracts.


Hmm, that seems reasonable to me. Because by the time your own player reaches UFA status, they are 27 or 28, so you can sign them until they're 34 or 35. Really teams shouldn't be signing players past that anyways.

And as for signing other UFA's, you'll be able to sign them until they're 32 or 33. Again it's to protect teams from signing stupid contracts past the age of 35 in order to circumvent the cap.

If I were the players, I would take this deal now. This is the best they're gonna get.
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#4121 cire2222

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:59 PM

Too often are economy controls everything, In one perspective its a game of hockey, yet to these owners in huge debates with players over money to play a game to the point there not even playing makes me disapointed in the canucks, the rest of the league and the players. GREED flows through their mind with their billions of dollars yet in the end they won't they only continue to make more money so long as this one thing happens?
PLAY SOME HOCKEY
stop letting your fans down
stop letting all this money your fighting over not be made
stop being so horible betman
get the league a new g.m
stop giving a bad rep to my favorite sport.

i needed to go on a rant somewhere about this.
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#4122 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:59 PM

Ya, that's reasonable. I think it was said earlier, they are just ironing out the fine print. Damn these negotiations are long and stressful, and I'm just a fan.
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#4123 Pears

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:02 AM

John Shannon ‏@JSportsnet
Leagued proposed increasing "make whole" provision to 300 Million Dollars.

John Shannon ‏@JSportsnet
League proposed that UFA and Arbitration rules stayed same as last CBA...27 and 4 Years Pro.

John Shannon ‏@JSportsnet
League would not budge on Contract Term or Variance... 5 Years... 5%

John Shannon ‏@JSportsnet
There would an exception for signing your own Free Agent...7 Year Contracts.

I like this. Hopefully the PA likes it too.
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#4124 playboi19

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:10 AM

Huge News! Hopefully the PA responds well tomorrow and they don't get pissed about contract length limit.
7 years is fine, stars can only sign for 6 years in the NBA and they manage to do well.

Pierre LeBrun@Real_ESPNLeBrun
NHL offered to raise Make Whole to $300 million today from $211 million. Players had asked for $383 in their offer two weeks ago. Middle?

Edited by playboi19, 06 December 2012 - 12:13 AM.

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#4125 Edler's Mind Tricks

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:11 AM

The only change out of this whole thing that is going to be talked about by the casual fan (fan of NFL/MLB/NBA) is going to be he contract limits.
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#4126 canuck_trevor16

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:12 AM

I hope the PA do agree on what the NHL proposal and sign it......hope it will finish by Friday
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#4127 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:33 AM

Wow now we are only 83 Million apart on the core ecomonic issue.

I never thought this day would come.

Now it is time to resolve the contract issue's and were almost set.
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#4128 DeNiro

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:38 AM

Apparently 50 million of the 300 million is set aside for the players pension fund.

There's always little fine details that may make this thing less attractive then it seems.
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#4129 Tangerines

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:38 AM

Good deal.. Now lets get this show on the road.. :)
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#4130 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:43 AM

Apparently 50 million of the 300 million is set aside for the players pension fund.

There's always little fine details that may make this thing less attractive then it seems.


I know, there is never just a straight offer.

The players might not be enormously concerned however, they will get that money either way. But I don't know maybe it will be a huge deal but IMO they shouldn't make a major fuss over it.
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#4131 Kent.S

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:50 AM

@FriedgeHNIC: Twitter stream coming: that pension issue by mentioned by @TSNBobMcKenzie is a thorny one. Here's why: pension laws are different in US...


@FriedgeHNIC: and Canada. US teams can pay approx $20,000 more than Canadians tax-free. So, it's an advantage if you're playing south of border...


@FriedgeHNIC: because you are shielded from those taxes and Canadian teams making up the difference aren't protected from paying them.


@FriedgeHNIC: Canadian teams want more protection, which is why $50M would be included in make whole. But, players would look at it as...


@FriedgeHNIC: That's our money already. Was warned today this would be a problem, now I see what it is.


Edited by Kent.S, 06 December 2012 - 12:53 AM.

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#4132 DeNiro

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:17 AM

I know, there is never just a straight offer.

The players might not be enormously concerned however, they will get that money either way. But I don't know maybe it will be a huge deal but IMO they shouldn't make a major fuss over it.


It seems to me like this whole time the NHL has been making offers that look good to the average person, but when you dig deeper you realize it's not that great.

And now the media conveniently gets a hold of their latest offer even though they've been completely silent up until now. To me that's not good news. It means the NHL is probably trying to get the public back on their side. If the players turn this down, fans will be saying that they are greedy again and turn against them.

This whole process has just been a gong show. You would think that none of these people had ever been involved in a professional labor negotiation before.
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#4133 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:38 AM

The 50m set aside for pension actually covers what would normally come out of players' escrow. It's a positive for the players in as much as they don't have to worry about an additional levy to what they make until that 50m pension runs out.

The Canadian/US discrepancy could be a big issue in the future. It would be in the interest of most older free agents to finish their careers south of the border, especially if it's 20 grand a year difference. That has to be ironed out.
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#4134 WHL rocks

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:42 AM

I'm not surprised owners gave way on requiring longer term before UFA and arbitration rights. Frankly I expected this.

One of the major issues with old CBA was salary cap circumvention. Only way to stop that is with term limits and max 5% to 10% salary variance between years of SPC.

Wonder whats going on with the NHLPA's proposal to decouple from HRR .I never thought NHL was going to cancel the season over UFA at 27 years or at 28 years. But they might if union continues to demand decoupling from HRR.

Man how I'd love to be in that room to see all these billionaires at work. Hawks and Doves. The whole lot of them.

Edited by WHL rocks, 06 December 2012 - 02:43 AM.

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#4135 theminister

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:43 AM

I would like to see the players push a little more to increase the pension fund for retired players.

I know they have proposed another 5 mil annually but standing on the shoulders of giants.... you know?

Some of these guys in their eighties are hurting and not because of their own fault.

Edited by theminister, 06 December 2012 - 01:46 AM.

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#4136 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:43 AM

It seems to me like this whole time the NHL has been making offers that look good to the average person, but when you dig deeper you realize it's not that great.

And now the media conveniently gets a hold of their latest offer even though they've been completely silent up until now. To me that's not good news. It means the NHL is probably trying to get the public back on their side. If the players turn this down, fans will be saying that they are greedy again and turn against them.

This whole process has just been a gong show. You would think that none of these people had ever been involved in a professional labor negotiation before.


I agree, that 50/50 offer back in October for example seemed so great to the average eye, but when you look past just the 50/50 slplit everything else favoured the owner's they just tried to change the public perception like u said.

Although niether side is saying anything and with Gary out of the main talks it makes the process actually look like a negotiation now rather than a war over opinion.
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#4137 Provost

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:53 AM

Still lots of room for this to fall apart, but that would definitely be the end of the season.
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#4138 theminister

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:58 AM

Still lots of room for this to fall apart, but that would definitely be the end of the season.


And I don't think it would be hyperbole to say it, the end of the NHL as we know it.

This is the crucible. The death ground, as Sun Tzu said.

Whatever would come out of a cancelled season would bear no resemblance to the NHL of the last few years.

In my not so humble opinion on this matter.

Edited by theminister, 06 December 2012 - 01:59 AM.

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#4139 The Bookie

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:08 AM

Fehr or Fehr not, there seems to be progress

The lengths to which the NHL owners will go to make NHL Players' Association executive director Donald Fehr seem unnecessary has become pretty clear over the last couple of days, a sure sign that he's done a pretty good job waiting out the league until it was time to play.
After not wanting to change anything in their proposal for the past six or seven weeks, the NHL suddenly decided to soften its position on some of the contracting issues in their first discussions with Fehr not present.
That's why the players came out of the Tuesday night marathon meetings feeling so positive. For the first time in a long while, they had someone with whom to negotiate, and that accounts for the flurry of activity that was ongoing in New York Wednesday with proposals and counter-proposals as they try to firm up so many of the loose ends that always exist with respect to CBA talks.
And that list is seemingly endless when you talk about all the areas of contractual disagreement regarding money and then go on to things like realignment, the Olympics, a World Cup possibility, right down to meal money and when a guy gets to have his own room on the road. For that reason, along with the tricky business trying to get all of it on to paper, there's likely to be quite a few bumps along the way.
Fehr, of course, was right back in negotiations Wednesday, albeit by iPhone or Blackberry, the same as Tuesday night, but the appearance of he (and Gary Bet-tman as well) as being an encumbrance was conveyed to anyone who wants to buy it.
And that's how good a job Fehr's done. In an interchange that was always going to be one way with the NHL taking and the players giving, Fehr at least restrained his troops long enough for the league to move off its take-it-or-leave-it position. And in that sense it might be said he's done a decent job frustrating the usual Bettman strategy of waiting while the players negotiate against themselves. The players still did it twice to themselves when they submitted proposals, but for the most part Fehr was able to restrain his abundance of doves.
That softening on the part of the league came because it's time to wrap this thing up and the players agreeing to the meeting with just the owners present was their opportunity.
There's been enough damage done and everybody knows it. The profitable teams that make this game work as a business were starting to get antsy and ultimately they began to make their feelings clear. They didn't speak at the Board of Governors meeting Wednesday as that was just more or less an update with Bettman's heir apparent Bill Daly giving most of the talk and chairman of the board Jeremy Jacobs filling people in on what had taken place the night before, since he was in the room.
The owners of the wealthy teams want to get in a decent-length of season (56-60 games) and the one thing that the commissioner has never wanted over the entire length of his career is to upset them to the point where they began to talk among themselves about issues no matter what they might be.


And the sense was it may be getting to that point.
So things finally got serious and Wednesday night when talks ended at 1 a.m. Eastern time, a whole range of issues had been discussed with the league sticking closely to length of term on contracts and how those contracts are to be structured monetarily but willing to give on other issues. They threw in some more money on the "make-whole provision" and exchanged ideas in some often tense negotiations.
The sides will meet internally again Thursday morning and get back at it, albeit with nobody really knowing who's going to be directly involved.
According to insiders there were many tense exchanges, as one might expect, and Vancouver's Manny Malhotra was front and centre right until the bitter end with just three players remaining when all was said and done, again, all presumably getting advice from the Fehr brothers.
The league would also like to stop the significant payouts to very young players like Jordan Eberle, Taylor Hall and Tyler Seguin and many others, preferring instead to give that loot to guys who have been around longer and proven themselves. How or if they're able to do that remains to be seen.
Suffice it to say that at long last the players were sufficiently enthused going into the late meetings Wednesday night to feel that if they surrender something, the league will finally give them something in return.
And that's all they've ever asked for in these talks, Fehr or no Fehr.


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#4140 DeNiro

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:47 AM

According to insiders there were many tense exchanges, as one might expect, and Vancouver's Manny Malhotra was front and centre right until the bitter end with just three players remaining when all was said and done, again, all presumably getting advice from the Fehr brothers.


Gotta love Manny! This guy's a leader, and this is why you want him on your team.

Nobody can say no Canucks had a part in helping end the lockout.
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