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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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#4201 Canuck or Die

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:59 PM

If that's truly all there is, then there should be no reason why these fools can't just meet in the middle and go 6 or 7 years max on contracts. I mean, come on already!
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#4202 Shift-4

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:01 PM

That's a very reasonable offer.



That's what Bettman said about the NHL offer from two months ago..........

Until one side says they like what the other side says we have nothing.
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#4203 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:02 PM

Yeah I know, if that's the case should be done by the end of the day.

If that's truly all there is, then there should be no reason why these fools can't just meet in the middle and go 6 or 7 years max on contracts. I mean, come on already!


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#4204 The Bookie

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:04 PM

This is all sounding very positive. My apologies to all the negative Nancys here.


Indeed. This is sounding closer. The negative types seem to just want there to magically be a deal regardless of term. That's not negotiating.
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#4205 poetica

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:07 PM

A 10 year CBA with a mutual option to end it in 8 years.


Yeah, I just read something about the mutual 8-year end option. I still don't like the NHL trying to link their "make whole" proposal with the CBA length, but a rule making this CBA around the same length of the last one isn't a do or die issue for me.

Agreed on the make whole which IMO has to be 100% of the signed contract. Should be a way they could take that outside the new CBA and force the franchises to make good.


Agreed, but I don't know it'll happen. If it doesn't, the NHL will not actually be making whole at all. They signed those contracts under a CBA that guaranteed players every penny of their contract unless a team buys them out at 2/3. The NHL needs to either call it a buyout and give them 2/3 or honor them to the exact dollar amount. Anything less is not "whole" and they are liars for calling it that.

"It's not like it ever gets better for the players". I would suggest the players did very well under the old CBA. When it was signed it was the end of the world for the players. AT the end they were splitting $1.88 billion. I'm not suggesting the owners did that on purpose.


Players did well compared to the rest of us slobs for sure, but they still saw the spending on their salaries and benefits dropped significantly at the beginning of the last CBA. Remember, the last CBA started off by reducing "every year of every existing NHL player contract (plus signing, roster and reporting bonuses, performance bonuses, marketing fees and any and all other payments due under existing contracts)" by 24%. (Source: http://www.nhl.com/i...ge.htm?id=26366)

That means players collectively gave up millions that were owed to them and then faced further restrictions via the salary cap which kept their salaries from being able to grow at the rate they had been before and gave a hard number limit to how much they could make (20% of salary cap ceiling). That's why, like I posted a few pages back (with specifics), there are players in the past when league revenue was significantly lower who got paid more than any player was allowed to at any time under the last CBA.

For example, the most any player was allowed to make under the last CBA was $12.86M in 2011/12, but in 1998/99 Sergei Fedorov got paid $14M. (Interestingly, that was the last time anyone got paid over $12M. So I guess it is possible for owners to restrain themselves without nanny rules.)

In 2003/04 at least 10 players made $9M or more, and 5 of those made $10M or more. In comparison, in 2011/12 only 7 players made $9M or more and only 4 of those made $10M or more. (Source: http://www.dropyourg...spx?Season=2004)

"In 2002-03, the average payroll was $47.2-million. But league revenue was just under $2-billion, while in 2008-09 those $47-million payrolls were paid out of total NHL revenue of $2.6-billion." (Source: http://m.theglobeand...?service=mobile)

"Consider this: While the average player salary jumped from $1.8-million to about $2.4-million (about 33 per cent) between 2003 and 2012, the owners' share went up from $500-million (as per the league's own Levitt Report) to $1.42-billion in those nine years (185 per cent). (Source: http://www.theglobea...b Article Links)

Whereas the owners saw their share increase 185%, the players only saw their collective share rise by about 25%, from $1.49B in 2003/04 to $1.88B in 2011/12, even though HRR itself rose about 33% over the course of the last CBA. (Source: http://sportsillustr...line/index.html)

The players may have done well under the last CBA, but the owners did significantly better. According to the Levitt report (PDF link), prior to the last CBA players' cost took up to 75% of revenue. (And that's all revenue, not just some revenue minus some costs that is HRR, meaning players probably got around 80% or more of what would have been called HRR.) Had that continued, or even if it had dropped 20% (of revenue, not HRR), players would have still done better before the last CBA than they did under it.

So, yes, the players did well. But make no mistake, they still did less well than they would have prior to the last CBA and just how well they were allowed to do was artificially constrained. And this CBA will only be worse for players. The players will still do well, but owners will do even better and still tell us how poor they are.

Edited by poetica, 06 December 2012 - 05:17 PM.

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#4206 WHL rocks

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:13 PM

According to TSN That's Hockey

They have agreement on make whole and they are very close on length of CBA.

Difference is PA wants 8 yr CBA with opt out after 6. NHL wants 10 yr CBA with opt out after 8.

They are apart on length of SPC's, NHL wants 5 year max 7 yr for own player. PA proposing 8 year max. NHL wants 5% variance PA wants last year of contract not to be less than 25% from the highest paid year.

NHL is avoiding talks on transition rules yet. They want to talk about that at the end.
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#4207 WHL rocks

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:17 PM

Whats with the doom and gloom on CDC?? Just logged on and read a few posts it looked bad. Tuned to TSN and checked twitter and it looks good. They've agreed on a lot. They are real close. I don't see this not going to a vote by the players. Its so close that players would want a vote on it.

EDIT spoke too soon. NHL pulled the offer. No more talks

This after Fehr saying we are very close if not on top of each other.

Edited by WHL rocks, 06 December 2012 - 05:19 PM.

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#4208 vancouverdepression

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:17 PM

changed my mind...NHL 2012/2013 dead

Edited by vancouverdepression, 06 December 2012 - 05:24 PM.

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#4209 TmanVan

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:18 PM

The nhl and the owners should be careful what they wish for. They might think 5 year max contracts sound like a good idea, and on the surface they are, as they protect them from a 10, 12, 15 year contract on an investment that is far from being a guarantee. But what about when Sidney Crosby walks away from Pittsburgh after a 5 year deal, what if Stamkos, Giroux, Tavares do the same?

The owners are going to handcuff themselves so much that they are going to regret it after they start losing these superstar players that they invested signifcant time and development in. 7 or 8 year max contracts makes more sense for both sides.
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#4210 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:18 PM

@ian_mendes
Donald Fehr just announced that things have taken a negative turn.
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#4211 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:19 PM

‏@TEAM1040
Fehr: "What can we tell hockey fans? It looks like this won't be resolved in the immediate future. I hope I'm wrong."

Noooooo!!!!
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#4212 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:20 PM

Wow really the NHL just ends it like that.

Disgusting, there were some big moves made today, if they would stop being so demanding, they could be responable and make a deal.


The NHL disgusts me.
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#4213 poetica

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:20 PM

Real_ESPNLeBrun
Fehr says NHL left a voicemail message saying NHLPA counter wasn't acceptable. No need to stick around today or Friday. Talks broken for now



:angry:
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#4214 Dogbyte

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:20 PM

"not good" - Fehr

"to canadian fans, looks like there will not be a resolution anytime soon."

:(
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"What players need is the right kind of strength and power. That includes learning to understand that leverage and positioning can be just as important as raw strength when it comes to winning battles in the game. It's more about timing and athleticism --and avoiding injury--than it is about how much you can bench press. I don't know how many times I've seen a guy with the physique of a defensive end line up a guy half his size, only to bounce off when he connects. Sure, there is room in the game for big guys who can throw their weight around. But for the most part, players are smart enough to see them coming--and strong enough to protect the puck when they arrive. There are trainers out there who know how to devlop hockey-specific strength--though a trainer can help only if a player follows the program. All too often, I've seen players sign up with the best trainer, but not show up for their workouts and never to reap the benefits."

 

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#4215 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:22 PM

Ah, there you go...

This is it.

This is the end.
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#4216 WHL rocks

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:25 PM

The $300 million make whole was contingent on PA accepting some of NHL's terms one being 10 year CBA.

The NHLPA apparently came back with a proposal which did not follow these guidelines set out by NHL so they refused the proposal and ended talks. Looks like its the $300 mill make whole that they took off the table.
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#4217 cs2016

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:25 PM


Pierre LeBrun@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Fehr says right now it doesn't appear labor impasse will be resolved soon



Pierre LeBrun@Real_ESPNLeBrun
So, long story short, it's not good. Talks have broken off and who knows where the hell this goes now
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#4218 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:26 PM

Scott Burnside@ESPN_Burnside
Short answer from league is resounding no. No more talks tonight or tomorrow.


Again the NHL has to play the role of tough guy, I guess they will decide whether they want fans loyalty or not.

Cause I certaintly want no part of there pathetic league aside from being a Vancouver fan.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 06 December 2012 - 05:26 PM.

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#4219 250Integra

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:26 PM

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#4220 canuck_trevor16

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:27 PM

I think jacobs has something to do with it to cut talk...stupid corrupt nhl rejection is not an option.......FIRE Bettman he force another year with no hockey it a conspiracy tk weaken good teams and help weak team...nhl is the one breaking and reject talkd


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#4221 WHL rocks

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:28 PM

TSN just went from (in their own words) "extreme optimism to extreme opposite of that"
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#4222 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:29 PM

‏@reporterchris
Steve Fehr says he's never seen anything happen like this before in labour negotiations.
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#4223 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

@cotsonika
Bettman, Daly coming to hotel for press conference.
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#4224 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

Negs were going great until old man Jacobs spoke up.

Just another reason to hate the Bruins.
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#4225 Tangerines

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS SO FRUSTRATING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#4226 The-Impersonator

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

TSN just went from (in their own words) "extreme optimism to extreme opposite of that"


Can he at least get a decent looking briefcase and lose that homeless bum looking backpack?
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#4227 RunningWild

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:33 PM

Sounds like things are about to go nuclear.
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#4228 thad

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:33 PM

Seems to me Bettman didn't like Fehr's first press conference and is making a statement.. What the hell is the point to start pulling things you've offered off the table that you just offered this week. It's not like we're another month into the lockout and they have to change numbers to account for losses.

If Bettman didn't like the proposal you go back the next day and say what you don't like about it and counter with something else. Basically as soon as the hard ass is let back in, all the progress(wich was the most we've had) is pulled off the table and back to square one. This is 200% counter productive.
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#4229 canuck_trevor16

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:34 PM

Nhl is being stubben...and just delay talks longer is poor choice
i
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#4230 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:36 PM

Adam Proteau@Proteautype
NHL owners say NHLPA giving more than $1 billion in concessions is "unacceptable". If any league specializes in unacceptable, it's the NHL.


Lol, anyone still support the NHL?

Anyone who thinks the NHL is still right in there views should open there eyes (if there even are any that is)


Once again the PA has moved a mile while the NHL has moved an inch, it's a re-occurring theme in these negotiations.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 06 December 2012 - 05:36 PM.

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