*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread

[woot]

If I am not mistaken, the players' contracts are not dependant on any CBA being signed, and if the union decertifies, a lockout would probably become illegal, and the league would be forced to honour current contracts - you can lock out a union as a collective negotiating tactic, but you can't collectively bargin with non-unionized employees.

Obviously, this would be disgustingly messy, as player pensions, the salary cap, etc. are part of the CBA. I'm not too familiar with the labour law, but this is what I believe is the case.

[poetica]

Most employees don't get a % of sales for salary. Canuck players are employees just like Mike Gillis. They have tremendous benefits with potential participation in increased sales. The NHLPA wanting a downside $ gurantee is indirectly acknowledging the employee rather than partner relationship. A true partnership accepts both gains and losses.

[Snake Doctor]

VENTING: I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired that there is no hockey which makes me feel sick and tired.

[poetica]

NHL Lockout: Is the threat of decertification a bluff or legitimate option for the NHLPA?

With talks on a new collective bargaining agreement stalled, it appears that the NHLPA has finally arrived at the same conclusion that its equivalents in football and basketball reached: that they will not be able to reach a deal that they find acceptable without threatening to dramatically change the game.

On Thursday, Bob McKenzie reported that decertification has always been on the radar screen but took on new importance this week. After providing details of a conference call for the NHLPA membership, he wrote:

If it feels like there was a degree of inevitability to this, that’s likely because there was. Realistically, with the owners locking out the players in the hopes of negotiating a more lucrative deal, the players were always at a disadvantage in this dispute. The only way to win the battle is to change the battle.

What does decertification mean? There are a lot of answers to that question that mostly boil down to one thing: ultimately, nobody knows. There will be long, expensive, and nasty court battles. The fact that the NHL – unlike the NBA and NFL – has a sizable Canadian contingent injects more uncertainty by adding increased jurisdictional complexity to the affair. Even without that angle, it’s difficult to predict a winner. Legal expert Gabriel A. Feldman came to the following conclusion about the NBA when they faced the same situation:

What does seem certain is that if the NHLPA opts to decertify permanently, the current NHL model would eventually be scrapped. All of the restrictions currently in place – including items like the NHL Entry Draft – will be a thing of the past. Players of any age will be free to sign wherever they want for whatever reasons they want. In some ways, it will be like the pre-salary cap NHL in that individual clubs will have massively different payrolls – but even then, items like restricted free agency acted as a drag on the salaries of certain players and helped smaller market clubs compete. The likely result is the death of some teams and the relocation of others – it is difficult to imagine the Maple Leafs, for example, remaining the unchallenged team of the Greater Toronto Area.

While there would be positives for the players, there would also be negatives. “No guaranteed contracts” is the first thing many say, but that’s not necessarily the case; contracts are guaranteed by the CBA but they are also guaranteed simply because they are contracts – legally binding agreements between two competent parties. On the other hand, any positives negotiated into the CBA – McKenzie highlights pensions and benefits – would be wiped out. There is also the possibility that franchise instability caused by the change in model has negative impacts on the players down the line.

In short, there is a lot of uncertainty. On the whole, it seems likely that the changes in a post-collective agreement NHL world would favour the players. But it will take a long time to get there and nobody knows what that world would look like, exactly.

That is why, in both the NFL and the NBA, the end result was a return to collective bargaining. While various representatives of the league are hinting both on and off the record that pursuing decertification would wipe out the season, in both leagues the end result was actually a quick agreement and a return to playing games. In the case of the NBA, anti-trust lawsuits were filed on November 15; a tentative agreement between owners and players was reached 10 days later.

That is the most likely outcome here. The players will make a strong move toward decertification, talks will suddenly restart, and the two sides will come to an agreement. Based on previous negotiations, this is what will happen.

However, decertification would not have re-energized talks in other leagues if not for the fact that it is a legitimate threat. Depending on how talks between the two sides go, it might even be a threat that the players’ association acts on.

[oldnews]

VENTING: I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired that there is no hockey which makes me feel sick and tired.

[johngould21]

Maybe if you watched hockey half as long as I have you would understand.

Let me get this straight, you think because Hamrlik wants to play one more year, he's negating the efforts of 600+ players?

Really? What efforts?

Why won't Fehr let them vote? Probably because more then half would accept an offer as it means getting paid and playing.

There are no winners in this at all - everyone loses.

[Heretic]

NHL announces cancellation of 2012-13 regular-season schedule through December 14th and 2013 NHL All-Star Weekend.

"The reality of losing more regular-season games as well as the 2013 NHL All-Star Weekend in Columbus is extremely disappointing," said NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly. "We feel badly for NHL fans and particularly those in Columbus, and we intend to work closely with the Blue Jackets organization to return the NHL All-Star events to Columbus and their fans as quickly as possible."

[Heretic]

Why won't Bettman let the owners vote? Afterall, this is their lockout.

[johngould21]

They did "owners voted unanimously in support of the work stoppage."

The real question is - why is there a work stoppage at all?

Insurance reasons?

Is there something in the expired CBA that says there can't be hockey if it expires?

[Heretic]

How many would vote unanimously today? More than a few of them are a little more than ticked that this has gone this long? As to why is there a work stoppage? No agreement/contract with the players.

[The Bookie]

GRANGE ON DECERTIFYING: THREE MONTHS LATE

As one of the NBA’s most successful player agents, Bill Duffy has his handful representing a full roster of clients, including the Los Angeles Lakers Steve Nash.

But that doesn’t mean he hasn’t been paying attention to the NHL lockout, now in its 10th week. He has, and he has a strong opinion about what the players should do next.

“They should decertify, absolutely,” said Duffy while taking a break from his Thanksgiving dinner. “They should have done it three months ago.”

Duffy is referring to what has very quickly become the latest buzzword in the NHL’s dispute with the NHLPA.

Decertifying refers to the a union disbanding under law and no longer representing the interests of its members as a single entity.

And if it seems counterintuitive – what would the players gain by no longer negotiating collectively? – in Duffy’s mind it is the only way to shift the balance of power in sports labour, which seems tilted in the owners’ favour as never before.

There is a school of thought that at the moment the major sports leagues actually benefit from having a union in place because they then can act as a single business – the NHL in this case – rather than be looked upon in law as 30 different businesses who should be in competition with each other.

A single business known as the NHL (or the NBA or NFL or MLB) is allowed to do things like restrict the market for players through mechanisms such as an entry draft; entry level contracts or a salary cap because the players as a group -- represented by their unions – have agreed to do business that way through the collective bargaining process.

If the union doesn’t exist then the anti-trust or anti-competitive exemptions pro sports leagues work under won’t apply and can be challenged in court.

If elements like a salary cap or rules governing free agency aren’t collectively bargained the expectation is that the teams must act like competitive businesses in a free market; any actions that actively restrain trade are illegal.

“Decertifying levels the playing field,” said Duffy who was among a group of seven powerful NBA agents who pushed the NBPA – the National Basketball Players’ Association – to decertify during the NBA lockout almost exactly a year ago. “It means the owners can’t work together. There’s no more collusion.”

The NFL players' association decertified in their labour battle with NFL owners in 2011, although their experience is a little bit different because they began the process even before their CBA expired, giving them months to let court battles play out. They eventually got a labour deal without missing any regular season games or pay days.

The NBA experience is much closer to the path the NHL appears to be headed down. Not only is the timing similar, the NBA example is worth noting because Gary Bettman and NBA commissioner David Stern are very close and the two leagues – along with the NFL – are represented by the powerhouse New York law firm Proskauer Rose.

The NBA lost 16 games and two months last year as the owners tried to reduce the players share of BRI – Basketball Related Income – from 57 per cent to less that 50, while also tightening up a whole range contract rights issues.

If it sounds familiar to hockey fans, it should. Substitute BRI for HRR – hockey related revenue – and the script is pretty much the same. Add in the fact that five NHL owners also own NBA teams, and eight NHL teams share an arena with an NBA franchise and it’s not hard to see where NHL owners are looking for inspiration.

Will the NHLPA look to the NBPA as inspiration for their next move?

There certainly seems to be some momentum towards decertifying building among NHL players.

In an email to the Globe and Mail, Buffalo Sabres goalie Ryan Millerbecame the first NHL player to publicly endorse the concept.

“After watching the other sport leagues go through labour disputes last year, it is apparent that until decertification is filed, there will not be any real movement or negotiation,” Miller wrote in an email published by the Globe’s James Mirtle. “Many things in our negotiation are very consistent with the NFL and NBA negotiations, and both of those leagues filed papers necessary to decertify.”

Players contacted by Sportsnet wouldn’t comment when asked about decertifying, other than acknowledge that it’s been discussed.

One prominent player agent, Allan Walsh of Octogon Hockey, said support for the concept is gathering steam, a view echoed by some other agents contacted by Sportsnet.

“The NHLPA has become nothing more than a vehicle [for the owners] to take revenue share and contract rights away from players,” said Walsh.

Said another agent, who asked not to be named: “Decertification has been explored for some time and this trigger may be pulled, especially if massive concessionary bargaining continues.”

In Duffy’s experience in the NBA it was essential to getting a deal done; the only mistake was that the players didn’t embrace it sooner.

On Nov. 6th of last year the NBA told their players that they would have four days to either accept a 50-50 split of BRI or else the offer would revert to a 47-53 split in the owners’ favour with a hard cap and salary rollbacks. The NBA players called it an ultimatum and pushed back.

Just over a week later the NBPA flipped the switch on decertification by filing a “notice of disclaimer” – basically the union informed the league they weren’t representing the players any longer – and then having groups of players file lawsuits against the NBA citing various unfair labour practices.

It’s not clear what steps if any the NHLPA has take towards decertification. There are two ways to do it. To formally decertify 30 percent of NHLPA members – about 210 players – would have to sign a petition in support of a decertification vote.

That petition would have to be provided to the NLRB. After 45 days the players could vote on decertifying and if a simple majority were in favour the union would be disbanded. Only then would NHL players be able to begin to take legal action against the league.

A spokesman with the NHLPA said that they haven’t gathered signatures.

Should they decertify and pursue court action the players would certainly be at risk – they wouldn’t be working, for one and the possibility of a cancelled season would become very real– but the owners would have a lot to lose as well.

A key aspect of US labour law would require the owners to pay the players damages worth triple their losses if they were to found to have acted improperly in locking the players out and in their subsequent negotiations. That could mean a potential $5.6-billion windfall for the players, though it would take years of legal battles to get it.

But at its most basic decertifying, or the threat of it, would inject a massive dose of uncertainty in the process as would resorting to the courts. Most importantly the owners control over the outcome would be diminished considerably.

Billionaires hate that.

“It’s the only recourse the players have; otherwise the owners have an unfair advantage,” said Duffy, the NBA agent. “The players should do it.”

[Provost]

Keep in mind that the NBA players didn't end up with any sort of sterling deal out of this process... and they didn't actually go down the path of decertification. It was the threat of it that got things moving.

It is a pretty risky move to try to bluff Bettman as his tendency is to get even more entrenched when he hits opposition. You had best be prepared to go all out and actually decertify.

[The Bookie]

Yeah, one thing I know of the 2004-5 lockout is Bettman spent 4 years leading up to it planning for every contingency with the owners, meticulously mapping out every potential turn that negotiations could take. So I'm assuming there's a game plan for this. A bluff won't do. Though Fehr doesn't seem like a bluffer.

While part of me is curious how it would play out, I really hope they can find an agreement without decertification.

[Ossi Vaananen]

This last round of cuts would have been the correct time to cancel the WC. All star game is all profit anyway, another shot to the foot of Bettman. Well if they do salvage a season that week off can now go to 3-4 games per team.

The one thing I like about decertifying is the lockout immediately becomes illegal, and the black letter of signed contracts becomes your new operating device. Players could sue the league about $ lost, and bonuses not being paid out. This gives the players substantially more power, and I'm sure the owners would immediately ask for Bettman's head - that would be a glorious day.

[Snake Doctor]

I have decided I don't need NHL hockey.

The Wolves are at home on Sportsnet tomorrow... Looking forward to that one.

I went to a WHL game a couple nights ago... good hockey (about a dozen drafted players in the game) - I took my wife's Dad - a couple tickets cost me less than $40.

[oldnews]

This last round of cuts would have been the correct time to cancel the WC. All star game is all profit anyway, another shot to the foot of Bettman. Well if they do salvage a season that week off can now go to 3-4 games per team.

The one thing I like about decertifying is the lockout immediately becomes illegal, and the black letter of signed contracts becomes your new operating device. Players could sue the league about $ lost, and bonuses not being paid out. This gives the players substantially more power, and I'm sure the owners would immediately ask for Bettman's head - that would be a glorious day.

[DeNiro]

Wow, Brouwer completely throwing his own teammates under the bus for speaking their minds. What a class act...

"For me, I think those guys selling us out, being selfish like that and making those comments..." Brouwer continued. "Me being on their team, how am I going to trust them as a teammate from now on? Because you know they're not going to support players in the big scheme of things when you go and you play on the team with them; it's going to be tough to want to back those guys from now on." -Brouwer

He's saying they're selfish? First of all, Hamrlik is probably in his last year as a player, and just wants to play one more season. And Neuvirth doesn't even know how long he'll be in the NHL for. To say that these guys are selfish is ridiculous.

Brouwer isn't in their position, so he has no right to call them out. They're members of a group together, and if this is how these guys feel, I'm sure they're not the only ones feeling this way. They were just the only ones brave enough to say something. Maybe it's time to start listening to your own members, and not being selfish by fighting a fight based on principle.

[gizmo2337]

The one thing I like about decertifying is the lockout immediately becomes illegal, and the black letter of signed contracts becomes your new operating device. Players could sue the league about $ lost, and bonuses not being paid out. This gives the players substantially more power, and I'm sure the owners would immediately ask for Bettman's head - that would be a glorious day.

[Wh!stler R!der]

If that glorious day should come to pass, there would be a lot of happy people. They could make up lost HRR based on puck gary merchandise alone! I say do it, no bluffing or posturing. Hit the nuclear button and kick them in the nuts.

[Shift-4]

All this decertification talk is telling me Ed Snider might get what he once suggested (from 2004)

http://hockeytraderumors.com/ed-snider-speaks-out-on-cba-impasse/

“When Bob Goodenow says he wants the free market, well, I’ll give him the free market,” Snider told reporters. “A free market is no union. That’s a free market. You don’t have guaranteed contracts, you don’t have arbitration, you don’t have anything. When I got into hockey, you signed a player for a year and when he came to training camp, you signed him for the next year. That’s a free market.”