*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread

[Rey]

Well look at how many teams are losing money, look at how big of a deal they are making it that they can't even give the players 100 Million or whatever when the players have already given back over a billion. If the NHL isn't as big of a deal as you say it is then why can't they do these simple things? Explain that.

And aside from just the money, it destroyed the Salary Cap structure and so-on if the players wish to attack those areas, then that destroys the progress they have made in the last lockout, do you not think that is a big deal?

If you truley don't think decertification is a big deal to the owners, then explain why u feel that way like I am, rather than just saying your stance and not backing it up.

[poetica]

Owners make income elsewhere. You make it sound like they need to own an NHL team to make a living. Owners are just greedy businessmen who just want to make even more money. If the NHL doesn't work, you think they are going to cry about it opposed to a NHL player who can't find a job after this is over?

[Smashian Kassian]

The Bold. You really need to think about that when you post. I've pretty much said everything i needed to, perhaps you missed some of my edits to add even more. It's about being realistic and not dreaming. You really don't have anything backing you up, and honestly. I'm not throwing much sources out there, aside from the facts. That being what has happened, and what is potentially going to happen.

How many Owners of these teams that are losing money want to sell their teams? Most are better off getting rid of their teams. Salary cap doesn't effect the Owners. They effect hockey, the game. It was made so all 30 teams can be competitive. Teams with losses are failing to even reach cap floor. Without it, they can spend however much money on their team as they wish.

and what are you complaining about? You're supporting the decertifation. I'm the one, going on that it'll ruin the game. You've clearly posted in your 2nd response that you support it and that it should happen.

and Again. To reiterate what i said in my first post. Unless someone steps up for the respect of the game, the game is going to be ruined. You don't seem to understand how bad the NHL would be with "decertification".

[The Bookie]

It's still saddens me that people talk as if Bettman actually has any power at all. It's the owners that are telling him what to do and what they want. The owners run the league and with or without decertification it won't effect the owners as much as the players.

[Rey]

So your argument is that the owners don't care about the NHL teams they own or the tiny percentage of their overall wealth those teams represent and that's why they won't care if their stubbornness and greed burns the whole league to the ground? And for that reason we should support their position?

From one of your previous statements, you said,

If owners don't care about the NHL teams they own and you equate caring about the NHL with caring about hockey, that means the owners don't care about hockey. Why would any of us support the people who have no concern for the sport and who, by their greed and stubbornness, are keeping hockey from the fans?

[Rey]

I understand completely how bad the NHL would be, my point being that it would destroy everything the game has gone through, all the work stoppages. Really the threat of it is just as powerful as actually doing it. I think it's the nuclear card, I have been pretty optimistic that the NHL would soon start negotiating and stop making demands but, if the NHL continues to refuse to bargain in good faith I don't see what else there is to do? If they give in this lockout, the NHL will come back next time and ask for more, and eventually guarenteed contracts will go out the window, and so-on. the Lockouts won't end, they will just keep coming back for more, that's what history tells us. After taking a step back, the damage it would do to both sides would be terrible, but more so to the owner's in my mind, and it would be a huge message for the future.

Either way and all that aside, The point of this lockout should be the revenue sharing, to make sure teams stop losing money, to help grow the game but in turn, the Owner's have gotten greedy and they have done way more damage to the game, I just don't understand what they think holding out will acomplish.

To me after all the concessions the players made, the NHL should just stop being so greedy, step up and offer to take on more of the make whole, and give the players there contract rights. Rather than having a standoff over a little bit of money after they have already gained alot more from the players, they should try to form a partnership like they are supposed to have and move forward, not try to screw the players over more and more everytime the CBA expires.

Bettman should just go, there is no reason for this lockout.

[Smashian Kassian]

Why do you continue to say that it's the NHL's fault? when All the NHL has done is make proposals. All the NHL has asked the Players union to do is make a proposal but Fehr can't even do that. Re-up for 5 years, and hope Bettman is gone and not replaced with the another Bettman clone. That's the best decision for everyone.

Everyone is greedy. Regardless if Bettman is in charge or not - potential lockouts will happen. It's a part of the business.

[Pears]

Why do you continue to say that it's the NHL's fault? when All the NHL has done is make proposals. All the NHL has asked the Players union to do is make a proposal but Fehr can't even do that. Re-up for 5 years, and hope Bettman is gone and not replaced with the another Bettman clone. That's the best decision for everyone.

Everyone is greedy. Regardless if Bettman is in charge or not - potential lockouts will happen. It's a part of the business.

[Rey]

I say it's the NHL's fault because they have been completely unwilling to negotiate fairly and they still are unwilling to move any closer, it's supposed to be a partnership, the NHLPA has move significantly closer and the NHL hasn't been able to move the same distance.

As Steve Fehr said, for every mile the NHLPA moves, the NHL moves an inch, to me there are issues that have to be solved but instead all the NHL is focused on is taking more money and privilages away form the players, that's it not forming a good partnership with give and take on both sides like they should be.

[poetica]

It's so simple. It's because the own the NHL. Is that really hard to understand? You've come up all the time because you are bitter about 2004's lockout. Unfortunately, fail to look at the situation with the sense of reality. Bosses are suppose to boss around the employees, not the other way around. Have a problem? Go play in another league or do something else. It's really that simple.

Instead, because both sides are so cocky and have so much pride. Let the union destroy themselves, leaving everyone stranded and lost. Makes so much sense right?

[Rey]

Actually, its more of the opposite. The NHLPA has been ready talk but each time they want to the NHL doesn't want to talk. It was pretty clear that the NHL, especially Bettman, wanted this lockout. Otherwise there would've been a CBA signed long before now.

[Rey]

I understand they own the teams. That does not mean they have the right to do anything they want without restrictions, especially when they have to work with a union and have signed contracts. Owning a team also should not give what may only be a few the right to drag out this situation to the destruction of other owners' teams.

If you think both sides are cocky and prideful, why do you call out the players for not just giving in but not the owners? I do not understand holding the owners to a lesser standard, especially since their investment is more long-term and they have more to gain or lose.

And you still never answered my last post. If by your own definition the owners don't care about hockey, why should we support them? Bosses may get to boss players around, but they are all supposed to listen to the customers who is the source of their income.

[poetica]

I rather focus on what has actually happened aside to what Fehrs or the Bettmans have said. People act if what they say actually matter. They can say anything to the media. So, tell me. What has actually happened? in terms of offers? proposals? The NHL has given up a lot more albeit obviously not enough but that's the reality.(We're talking about this lockout). Not the ones in the past.

[poetica]

I've repeated myself too many times to you, and you just come up with the same questions. Please let it be the last.

The Owners own the league, thus they are in charge. If the players want to be hardball, they can but at the end of the day. It's the Owners that have the say. It's only the players that like in every league, give in and compromise with the league for the respect of the game and get the best deal available.

C'mon now. As if anyone cares about the fans. There's nothing to answer, It's right in front of you. If you don't want to support the NHL. Don't watch it. No one is forcing you to. Yet, you are still here in a nhl board discussing about the NHL. Casual fans will come back if there is a product on the ice. The owners know it and the Players know it.

[Rey]

Yep Poetica. The NHLPA numbers were so serious that they they couldn't even do the math in their proposals. Ultimately, you are a fan of players, and they have to be right for you all the time. That's fine, but we've been through this already and there just isn't enough time i really want to spend with you arguing over it. What I think or what you think doesn't matter anyways.

Let the PA do their job, and destroy the NHL but in doing so, the majority of players will sit and lose money and jobs. We are all spectators here. I say, bring this thread back in 2-3 and see which side , at the end of the day, will benefit more.

Lets all line up to curse at Bettman because he is in charge because that's the intellectual thing to do. Fehr's history can be ignored. Think of him as a Golden boy, clearly, despite him also creating lockout after lockout and causing chaos in every league he goes to. Let's all support the players, cause they are so ever so smart with their harvard degrees and their understanding of the situation. Lets all jump in the ship, and sink together.

Like Erik Cole said , we want to respect players who have gone through this and hope they're job was for something and not nothing. Thus, lets have a decertificant to destroy everything cause everything anyone fought for in the past can be forgotten. GG

Stubborn and Naive defines everything about the lockout. Too proud for what? Destroy it all!

[Smashian Kassian]

I rather focus on what has actually happened aside to what Fehrs or the Bettmans have said. People act if what they say actually matter. They can say anything to the media. So, tell me. What has actually happened? in terms of offers? proposals? The NHL has given up a lot more albeit obviously not enough but that's the reality.(We're talking about this lockout). Not the ones in the past.

[Smashian Kassian]

Yep Poetica. The NHLPA numbers were so serious that they they couldn't even do the math in their proposals. Ultimately, you are a fan of players, and they have to be right for you all the time. That's fine, but we've been through this already and there just isn't enough time i really want to spend with you arguing over it. What I think or what you think doesn't matter anyways.

Let the PA do their job, and destroy the NHL but in doing so, the majority of players will sit and lose money and jobs. We are all spectators here. I say, bring this thread back in 2-3 and see which side , at the end of the day, will benefit more.

Lets all line up to curse at Bettman because he is in charge because that's the intellectual thing to do. Fehr's history can be ignored. Think of him as a Golden boy, clearly, despite him also creating lockout after lockout and causing chaos in every league he goes to. Let's all support the players, cause they are so ever so smart with their harvard degrees and their understanding of the situation. Lets all jump in the ship, and sink together.

Like Erik Cole said , we want to respect players who have gone through this and hope they're job was for something and not nothing. Thus, lets have a decertificant to destroy everything cause everything anyone fought for in the past can be forgotten. GG

[Rey]

I wanna know how you think the PA is destroying the NHL game, when they are the ones who have been doing most of the negotiating? While the Owner's sit back, make demands, and show that they are not willing to move any closer to the PA.

[SamJamIam]

Shut up. Whatever you say is wrong because it came from you not me.

[Smashian Kassian]

This is basically a who do you want to believe, type of question. Owners or the Players. I don''t think you really know the real details of the 3 offers presented to Bettman. I don't have time at the moment to dig it out. The final offer was told from individual players that it would be 50/50, as long as the contracts were honored. There were much more details involved that people didn't know about. Maybe I'll try to dig it out when i find the time.