*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread

[gizmo2337]

So, I don't get why the owners care about the contracting rights. Everybody is on the same playing field, and the percentage split guarantees owner share of the money. It is going to take some fresh new ideas to break the log jam. How about they introduce a "third" pool instead of talking 50/50 split. We shall call this the "revenue share" pool. How about something like this:

player share% / revenue share% / owner share %

2013 55 2 43

2014 53 6 41

2015 51 10 39

2016 49 14 37

2017 48 16 36

Revenue share dollar value become 72m,216m,360m, 504m, 576m assuming no growth. The actual owner share is revenue share pool plus individual owner share, so its sort of a 48/52 split, but the sharing could increase over time, especially with growth. For the players, this is sort of like a bit of a pay freeze for a few years to allow proper revenue sharing to get established. Cure the back diving contracts and you are done. TOR, MTL, NYR don't like the sharing, but what can they do. They need 8 votes.

[The Bookie]

NHL spin doctors forced to play defence as critics begin to pile on

Two fruitless days of mediation represents the latest breakdown in the NHL’s spin cycle.

Controlling the spin was integral to the NHL surviving its previous lockout in 2004-’05. In the years before that lockout, the league conditioned its customers and fans to the idea that it needed to fix its business model. Using a largely acquiescent mainstream media– many of them partners of the league– the NHL sold its message effectively. Dissenters were called out, and the league came back stronger than ever with fans and clients. If the NHL scored a hat trick last time, it’s in the process of scoring an own goal this lockout, losing control of the narrative in both MSM and social media. This week alone has brought a number of damaging stories that the NHL has been forced to defend.The most damning blow from the corporate side came Wednesday in a Washington Post story that quoted Ed O’Hara, a senior partner of New York-based SME Branding, a firm that helped devise the NHL’s recovery strategy in 2005.

“The league has become known for lying to its fans, to its sponsors,” said O’Hara,. “I don’t know how you come back from a prolonged stoppage a second time because it is unprecedented. Brands are built on promises. In this case, the promised experiences of seeing the greatest athletes in the world. That’s all gone now.”

This mirrors comments we’ve heard from the Canadian corporate side, albeit in much stronger language. O’Hara is suggesting the NHL isn’t merely burning bridges, it’s tearing up the road and polluting the river.

New kids on the block

While the NHL’s sponsors seethe, two other stories from reputable sources suggested that there is discord in the owners’ group. Joe Haggerty, Boston Bruins insider forCSNNE.com wrote a column suggesting that Bruins owner Jeremy Jacobs, believed the architect of the owners’ scorched-earth policy, had dismissed a representative of the Winnipeg Jets who had tried to urge moderation in the CBA dispute at a meeting of the NHL Board of Governors. According to Haggerty, Jacobs reprimanded the Winnipeg representative “as one of the ‘new kids on the block’ and informed him that he would know when he was allowed to speak in the NHL board room.”

This followed a column by Philadelphia Flyers beat writer Frank Seravalli, who wrote that Ed Snider, the enormously influential owner of the Flyers since 1967, had also been urging a softer tone toward players in order to get the season underway.

Both stories produced vigorous denials from the league, with Jacobs and Snider calling the stories fabrications. (NHL management figures can be fined $1-million for commenting without the permission of commissioner Gary Bettman on league business) Both writers and their publications stood behind the stories.

The veracity of the stories will play out in time. What can be said is that, in its bulldozer blitz to get yet another new CBA, the NHL has lost the audience. They can and probably will get their own way again this time. But as Ed O’Hara says, something very valuable has been lost to the league in its drive to crush the NHLPA again.

[poetica]

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

Union and NHL are in communication this aft. Await word on whether PA has agreed to owners mtng with restrictions or if NHL will comply.

[theminister]

I have to disagree with this. I will tell you my reasons.

When the owners agreed to go out and get a salary cap, the players were promised all kinds of concessions to allow it. The NHLPA were given all kinds of goodies.

-57% of the revenue

- UFA age from 30 to 27

-RFA bidding wars.

- 2 years non contract UFAs

- guaranteed buyouts

In my opinion, when I read the full 480 page CBA , there was no doubt 2 things happened.

1) owners got a salary cap

2) Union got everything else. You may disagree with what 'everything else' means, but there can be no debate that these concessions were all better than what they had before.

The CBA was only meant to last 4 years. Then it got stalled, delayed , renewed. All at the Unions request. I dont begrudge this issue . I would do it too.

But lets get real. We got guys like Dave Bolland making 3.6 million a year . Even adjusted for inflation Wayne Gretzky never got this in his prime with the Oilers.

Todays salaries were never considered nor meant to be this inflated. This is not what the owners nor the union had in mind in 2004. The union didnt dare dream salaries could skyrocket this much.

Now that all the CBA stalling years are over with, its time to pay the piper and get down to some reasonable cut. 50/50

I said right when I found out Fehr was in charge of the union, that he was NOT hired to get a 'reasonable deal'. He was not hired to simply sign a deal or cave in.

He was brought in from a baseball lockeout to save what the players thought they were ENTITLED to . The salaries they had ballooned up to. They were not about to give them up.

But this only affects 10% of the top players. If they held a vote at this point, the other 90% would be pissed off. They are broke, and fighting to feed their families. They cant afford this. The very owners and players who can afford it are running this little war. And the rest of the players and fans pay the price.

If the league wanted to be able to get rid of contracts they would NOT NEED a salary cap. It would become useless. They would simply fire whomever wasnt working out.

I say be thankful the NHL union has guarantees because the NFL does not so if you dont produce........BYE BYE.

The longer this little spite fest between Fehr and the owners goes on, the worse it gets for the players. The owners have all the power and the money to IGNORE how much they lose.

The players do not.

[The Bookie]

cold war continues as two sides exchange ideas

The NHL Players’ Association is playing a waiting game.

While the players are interested in an invitation from the owners to meet with them without the presence of NHL commissoner Gary Bettman and union executive director Donald Fehr, the NHLPA hasn’t accepted the invite yet.

The two sides spoke Saturday but were exchanging ideas on what the ground rules would be.

Sources say if the players do agree to sit down with the owners, they want input on who is going to be in the room and they aren’t going to allow the league to make any requests of which union members are involved.

Bettman proposed the idea after a meeting with officials from the Federal Mediation and Concilliation Service broke down Thursday in New Jersey. The NHL is desperate to try to find some kind of solution to get the season started.

“The owners don’t get to choose which players are in the room,” said a league insider Saturday. “If the owners want to talk, the players will listen, but I’m not sure the NHL is going to like what they hear back.”

It’s believed the union will request the meeting not be a bargaining session. That means there can only be ideas exchanged between the two sides on how to bridge the gap with the lockout at Day 78 Sunday.

As reported by the QMI Agency Saturday, the players will likely request New York Rangers owner James Dolan be part of any discussions. The New York Post reported that Dolan - considered a dove - wants to be in the room.

He wouldn’t be alone. The union would also like Montreal Canadiens owner Geoff Molson as part of the talks because he’s also considered to be moderate.

Not all players are on board. Sabres’ captain Jason Pominville told the Olean Times Herald in suburban-Buffalo he doesn’t like the idea.

“Gary’s been there for 18 years,” Pominville said. “Now we have Don who’s a solid representative. He knows what he’s doing, and we’ve worked hard to get him to where we’re at now. Why would we want to meet without him there?

“I’m not totally for it. But if it can help, might as well try it. But I don’t know if it’s the best way to do it.”

The NHL’s board of governors will meet Wednesday in New York so it’s possible the meeting could take place Tuesday.

[WHL rocks]

No, WHL, what you seem to fail to remember is that the players' share was never a hard fixed percentage even under the last CBA. There was a variance of 54-57% depending on revenue. So if a unmovable percentage is what you think "linking" to the HRR means, it was never linked to begin with. Therefore, the PA's proposal can't be delinking it now...............

...........

I'd be terribly impressed with your physic abilities if you could give me the winning lottery numbers. Until then, your theories on what Fehr wants to do or will do are nothing more than that - theories.

[WHL rocks]

Sometime in the future...

Don Fehr: There you are boys. Just like I promised. The NHL owners will never push you around again. Ever!

Players: But Donny, the NHL is gone forever.

Don Fehr: That's right. And your days of suffering are over. Mission accomplished. Now don't forget some of you have a forklift driving lesson at 2pm. Don't be late.

[The Bookie]

Dolan wants in on talks

Madison Square Garden owner James Dolan is willing to join talks with NHL players in an effort to end the lockout that threatens the 2012-13 season in its entirety, a source close to the Rangers’ governor told Slap Shots yesterday.

We are told Dolan, a primary figure on the NBA owners’ negotiating committee last year, signaled his desire to become involved in the NHL stalemate upon Gary Bettman’s suggestion it might prove beneficial for owners to converse directly with the players without the presence of league or union staff.

It is unknown whether the Garden owner has officially volunteered his services to Bettman, with whom he has had essentially no personal relationship dating back to at least 2007, when the Garden urged the commissioner be ousted in conjunction with filing suit against the NHL in a dispute concerning website, digital rights, licensing and team merchandise control.

The source familiar with Dolan’s thinking told Slap Shots the MSG boss believes his relationship with the commissioner is immaterial given his substantial role in brokering an agreement between NBA owners and NBA players that ended that league’s 2011-12 lockout last Dec. 8 and allowed for a 66-game season to commence on Christmas Day.

The NHL thus far has limited owner participation in meetings with the NHLPA to the four representatives on the negotiating committee — the Bruins’ Jeremy Jacobs, the Capitals’ Ted Leonsis, the Flames’ Murray Edwards and the Wild’s Craig Leipold.

The Rangers produce the second-greatest amount of revenue in the league and are the NHL’s second-most profitable franchise, with the Maple Leafs first in both categories. But those familiar with Dolan’s work on the NBA lockout report while he does represent a big-market viewpoint, it does not come at the expense of the well-being of small-markets.

We’re told Dolan’s distant relationship with Bettman has not isolated him within the NHL, and he indeed commands widespread respect within the Board. A number of NHL governors either own NBA teams or own and operate arenas in which NBA teams play.

If the 2012-13 NHL season is canceled, it is believed the Rangers would lose upward of $60 million, the final number dependent upon the team’s playoff success. The Maple Leafs, sources report, stand to lose more than $100 million.

It is unknown whether these owner-player discussions actually will take place, let alone whether Bettman would allow Dolan to participate.

What is unequivocally known, however, is the owner of Madison Square Garden believes he can be constructive toward settlement and wants into the discussions.

Would seem impossible for Bettman to say no to that, wouldn’t it?

* Absent a cogent bargaining approach beyond just saying “No,” the NHL continues to attempt to discredit NHLPA executive director Don Fehr.

Everyone by now is familiar with the league’s back-channel assertion Fehr doesn’t accurately relay information from the NHL to the rank-and-file; that he withholds information to suit his own anti-salary cap agenda.

The latest, though, Slap Shots has learned, is this rumor circulating through the Board that Fehr has a clause in his contract under which he would receive an $8 million payment should the PA vote to accept a CBA against his recommendation.

“Nonsense ... comical,” Fehr said once he stopped laughing when asked about it yesterday. “I’d say that I only wish I were that good a negotiator for myself, except that I don’t even want to joke about it.”

It all appears to be part of a strategy to paint Fehr as unethical in order to undermine his influence with the players. This is in stark contrast to the manner in which former MLB commissioner Fay Vincent portrayed the former leader (23 years) of the MLBPA in a published tribute to Marvin Miller, the iconic MLBPA leader who passed away on Wednesday.

“Miller and his successors Donald Fehr and Michael Wiener created a union that stands as a model,” Vincent wrote. “Their union is brilliantly led, honestly managed and extremely successful.”

In more than three decades working with the MLBPA, not once was Fehr accused of acting unethically in collective bargaining. Yet now, that’s the repeated implication coming from the NHL.

It’s a concerted effort that reeks of desperation. And it’s one that isn’t very likely to impress anyone on Federal or Provincial labor boards or in court if those, as expected, become the next arenas in which this No Hockey League competes

[poetica]

Variance??? You think guaranteed $67.25 million upper limit cap and guaranteed players share to not drop below any previous year can be compared to variance??

[Bodee]

I just wish they would call it.

Any deal now will make both sides look stupid and that's just what they are stupid and greedy.

This is one occasion when I think the internet just makes everything worse. There should be a ban on all press handouts, bulletins and interviews until a deal is settled...........you can't help thinking some people are getting off on the publicity and others on casting miss-information.

[The Bookie]

Will 2012 be Gary Bettman’s last stand as commissioner?

For at least one of the chief combatants in the current NHL lockout, the outcome of the dispute seems likely to be the deciding factor in his continued employment.

Gary Bettman has been the commissioner of the NHL since February 1993. His time at the helm has been marked by expansion into previously untapped (and occasionally uninterested) American markets, rising league revenues, and labour disputes. The 1994-95 lockout was bloody; the 2004-05 lockout the nastiest in any professional sport. At this point, the 2012 lockout is showing no signs of being a milder affair than either of the preceding disputes.

Bettman has survived an era of labour turmoil because in retrospect he is largely seen to have been right, at least by NHL owners. In 1994-95 he pushed the players hard but ultimately was not able to institute a salary cap; the season was saved but the stage was set for the 2004-05 battle because league spending was out of control. In 2004-05 he lost the season but won the war: the NHLPA was shattered, and a salary cap reduced money spent on players to a fixed percentage of revenue. The money going to NHL owners spiked dramatically and fan interest seemingly never wavered; from an ownership perspective the return on the 2004-05 lockout easily justified the year of lost revenue.

This time is different. The 2012 lockout was never about a paradigm shift, such as the salary cap, that would dramatically alter the financial game for NHL owners. It was simply about improving the bottom line and tightening control a little bit: dropping the players’ share of hockey-related revenue from 57 percent to 50 percent and instituting some system measures that would give teams more control of their young players and outlaw the insanely long deals being signed by some owners.

In mid-October, both sides presented offers aimed at saving a full 82-game season. The NHLPA’s offer at that time would have represented a modest win for Bettman and been a payoff worth the loss of pre-season revenue. Tyler Dellow crunched the numbers here; the gap between the NHL and NHLPA proposals was relatively small and the league would have knocked the players down to 50 percent of HRR by the last few years of the deal.

The problem for the league is this: if they can’t get a substantially better deal out of the players’ association, why have they sacrificed the last month and a half? If the NHL plays a 40-game season, or even worse loses 2012-13 entirely, they need to make gains to compensate. If they end up with a deal similar to their last offer – a 50/50 split of hockey-related revenue after a short transition period and relatively minor system changes – that simply does not seem like enough of a gain to justify risking the season.

As I see it, if Bettman has been a hawk behind closed doors – and given that he is the man negotiating for the league, it seems likely that he’s been in support of its hawkish negotiating strategy –anything other than significant gains at this point will put his job at risk. His primary function in this battle is to make the owners money: if it turns out the owners would have made more money by (more or less) agreeing to the NHLPA’s terms in October his credibility with the Board of Governors will take a major hit.

Nearly two decades in the league’s top job has left Bettman with significant baggage. The one thing fans in every city seem to agree on is that he deserves to be booed whenever the opportunity arises. Labour battles have left him despised by many players; comments made during those battles have also made him distrusted. Those have not been fatal problems for the commissioner to date because he’s done a good job in his primary role: making the league money.

If Bettman fails in that role this time around, it will be difficult to make the argument that the league gains more than it loses by his presence. If, on the other hand, he succeeds in pushing the NHLPA further still there will be no question as to the value he brings NHL owners.

[poetica]

Thank you for sharing the interesting articles, Bookie.

[Smashian Kassian]

Will 2012 be Gary Bettman’s last stand as commissioner?

[The Bookie]

Thank you for sharing the interesting articles, Bookie.

[poetica]

NHL, players cut out the mediator; no further CBA talks planned

It didn't take long for the NHL and NHL Players' Association to cut the mediator out of the picture.

The two sides closed out Day 75 of the lockout Thursday by wrapping up meetings with the U.S. Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service in New Jersey with no further talks planned and no end to the labour dispute on the horizon.

Trying to pull any string to get the talks back on track, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman proposed to NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr the two sides meet without the head of either camp in the room.

Instead, he wants just owners and players in the room and no presence of either NHL or NHLPA senior executives. The union agreed to think about the idea but didn't offer up a response.

While the NHL and NHLPA promised to be open-minded going into the mediation process, talks ended at 4 p.m. and the FMCS elected not to go any further because the two sides refused to compromise.

NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly confirmed in a statement that no progress was made.

"After spending several hours with both sides over two days, the presiding mediators concluded that the parties remained far apart and that no progress toward a resolution could be made through further mediation at this point in time. We are disappointed that the mediation process was not successful," said Daly.

Fehr said the FMCS agreed to stay in touch with both sides.

"The mediators informed the parties that they did not think it was productive to continue the discussions further," said Fehr. "The mediators (said) they would call the parties back together when they thought the time was right."

What's next? Possibly total chaos.

Expect the calls for an NHLPA court battle to be ramped up in the next few days because the union felt that mediation may help speed up the process of getting a new CBA in place. It did nothing of the sort.

Reports indicate Fehr can no longer decertify because of the timing. It could mean the NHLPA files a Disclaimer of Interest.

Under that scenario, Fehr would no longer lead the players and it is quicker than decertifying. It was used in the NBA dispute.

"The players tried coming back to the owners with a new proposal that separated both sides by $182 million. Instead of making a counter proposal, the NHL rejected the players overture within two hours," said a union source.

"Then, the players asked for mediation, hoping it would lead to a fresh approach in negotiations. It lasted two days before the NHL stopped that process. The union now has become nothing more than a tool used by the NHL to continuously violate antitrust laws. As such, decertification of the NHLPA will render the lockout and all resulting actions by the NHL illegal, subjecting the owners to payment of massive economic damages. It's time to take this fight to federal court."

The NHL's board of governors will hold a pivotal session next Wednesday in New York. The belief is getting a collective bargaining agreement in place by the first week of January is going to be a must if there's to be a meaningful season.

If there's going to be a deal done, the belief the league is going to have to take another step towards the union by tabling another proposal that gives the players something to think about after rejecting the NHLPA's offer last week.

The league and the players refused to budge off their positions: The NHLPA doesn't want to link salaries to revenues and the league doesn't want to guarantee contracts unless the union is willing to do that.

Yes, there are also still contracting issues to be worked out as well, but the possibility of the union taking this fight to court has now increased in a big way.

Daly said Bettman's proposal for a meeting was an attempt to break the stalemate.

"We want to find a way to get a deal," said Daly in an email. "Why not? Nothing else has worked. The commissioner felt that we might as well propose something different. We will see how they respond."

This battle has a lot of drama left in it, unfortunately.

[poetica]

Aaron Ward ‏@aaronward_nhl

Source,Meeting involving NHL Owners and Players to take place Tuesday with 6 Owners and approximately same number of players.

[Cromeslab]

Quote

Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie

I believe it's already been reported elsewhere, but 6 owners are: Jacobs, Edwards, Burkle, Chipman, Vinik, Tannenbaum.

Of course Jacobs will be there,this won,t end well

[Ossi Vaananen]

I'm not completely fluent with which owners those are, someone give me an update?

No Dolan, are big markets represented at all?

EDIT: Nevermind, did it myself. Bruins, Flames, Pens, Leafs, Lightning, and Jets. Good mix of struggling and successful markets.

[Cromeslab]

Jacobs/Boston,Edwards/Calgary,Burkle/Pitsburg,Vinik/tampa,don't know who Chipman and Tannenbaum represent

[Ossi Vaananen]

I just hope the players ask the very simple question as to 'why are the owners are going after their contracting rights?'. The revenue sharing concessions are enough without jeopardizing the players ability to negotiate for themselves. How does it benefit the owners anyway? I mean reducing contract lengths and the variance of contracts hurt the GMs ability to sign players more than anything. A longer RFA just means the player is less likely to stay when their tenure is finished.

Regardless, I like the idea of the two sides talking without the middlemen. Unfortunately it's been said that having Jacobs there might be counter-productive.