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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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#5581 Primal Optimist

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:46 PM

I said GOOD DAY!!! Don't try and belittle me little man.. Ill tune you up in more ways than one..


allright all right, you two just agree to disagree. I have read your posts and I am 99.9999999% sure Provost is technically correct, while I am also 99.99999% sure that in some sweeping general sense so is G-52. Arguing about it further will do not one good thing for anyone involved or reading about it and will likely end in the banhammer coming out. So chill out. Your both right in your own way.....and the terminology issue is all we are discussing at this point so walk away.
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#5582 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:48 PM

@TramyersCSN
Bettman: "We need to drop the puck by Jan. 19 if we’re going to play a 48-game season."

@DarrenDreger
Bettman says the league expects to work late tonight analyzing PA's counter. Would Explain his prediction am talks could conclude by noon.

@RenLavoieRDS
Gary Bettman confirmed a deal has to be done by January 11th.
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#5583 iLLmAtlc

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:54 PM

Am I the only one who is skeptical about this January 11th date? I mean, how does Bettman suddenly pull this 48 game requirement out of his ass when he cancelled the season in February last time?

Edited by iLLmAtlc, 31 December 2012 - 03:54 PM.

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#5584 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:59 PM

I said GOOD DAY!!! Don't try and belittle me little man.. Ill tune you up in more ways than one..


lmao. Really?! Someone who has apparently passed the BAR has the emotional intelligence of a 12 y/o who just had their bike taken away. Apparently I gave you too much credit in assuming you were talking about cap hit and not just player salary.

Anyway if we're doing physical threats now, I'd be happy to step in for Provost. I work out 6 days a week, I have a blackbelt in taekwondo, I've won tournaments in Thai kickboxing, and I am currently training in Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

Now if we're going to be adults and stop the pissing contest I suggest you provide a more defined legal definition of 'rollback' that only you seem to possess.
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#5585 gmen81

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:04 PM

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#5586 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:11 PM

Am I the only one who is skeptical about this January 11th date? I mean, how does Bettman suddenly pull this 48 game requirement out of his ass when he cancelled the season in February last time?


In 1995, the lockout ended on...January 11. :P
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#5587 Tangerines

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:14 PM

lmao. Really?! Someone who has apparently passed the BAR has the emotional intelligence of a 12 y/o who just had their bike taken away. Apparently I gave you too much credit in assuming you were talking about cap hit and not just player salary.

Anyway if we're doing physical threats now, I'd be happy to step in for Provost. I work out 6 days a week, I have a blackbelt in taekwondo, I've won tournaments in Thai kickboxing, and I am currently training in Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

Now if we're going to be adults and stop the pissing contest I suggest you provide a more defined legal definition of 'rollback' that only you seem to possess.


Nice bro. I have a brown sash in Kung Fu and going for my black very soon. I also train for 20 hours a week. I got your back..
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#5588 WHL rocks

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:15 PM

The current CBA is a great deal. Whatever small tweaking the NHLPA wants to do to claim they had some small say in it is fine.

Fehr can resign in shame the day after its signed. He lost the union 800 million,. He gave up unlimited contract lengths and now there will be a maximum year contract. He also , lost 7% of the entire NHLs revenue for at least 8 years possibly 10.

This is not what the union hired him for. They could hired anyone back in the summer to get this deal without costing the players 800 mil bucks.


Exactly this. If the final CBA is based on the latest NHL proposal with some tweaks then Bettman cleaned Fehr's clock.
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#5589 Provost

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:16 PM

Anyway if we're doing physical threats now, I'd be happy to step in for Provost. I work out 6 days a week, I have a blackbelt in taekwondo, I've won tournaments in Thai kickboxing, and I am currently training in Brazilian jiu-jitsu.


That works for me... my black belt is in Hapkido, but I am probably much older, fatter, and slower than you at this point and might have to break an unwanted sweat :)
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#5590 BCNeil

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:22 PM

Too bad we can't have a thread about updates to the cba negotiations.

Not ideas of what posters would bargain for.
Or who knows the most martial arts.
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#5591 zombieksa

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:25 PM

That works for me... my black belt is in Hapkido, but I am probably much older, fatter, and slower than you at this point and might have to break an unwanted sweat :)


I'm really good at Wii Fit and I did yoga almost two times last year! I win.
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#5592 WHL rocks

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:46 PM

Too bad we can't have a thread about updates to the cba negotiations.

Not ideas of what posters would bargain for.
Or who knows the most martial arts.


lol, someone should make a I have a black belt in ..... what about you? thread

anyways, any updates on the PA counter offer? haven't really seen anything on TSN or SPSN

Edit. just watching That's Hockey, no details out yet.

Edited by WHL rocks, 31 December 2012 - 05:06 PM.

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#5593 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:18 PM

@DarrenDreger
Without question, the NHL will respond to the PA's counter tomorrow, however, the process has moved beyond proposals. Still work to do...
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#5594 DeNiro

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:20 PM

lol, someone should make a I have a black belt in ..... what about you? thread

anyways, any updates on the PA counter offer? haven't really seen anything on TSN or SPSN

Edit. just watching That's Hockey, no details out yet.


Well I guess the fact that the NHL is taking the night to review it has to be considered somewhat positive, right?

It's not like last time where they dismissed the counter within 20 minutes.

Obviously the NHL will come back and counter the counter. I really have a hard time believing they will accept anything proposed by the union. They want the deal to be there's, so that they maintain their authority over the players.
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#5595 Boudrias

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:23 PM

That works for me... my black belt is in Hapkido, but I am probably much older, fatter, and slower than you at this point and might have to break an unwanted sweat :)

I'll bring the beer. Pull tabs only because that is all I can manage right now. Holly crap we got the makings of a 'good old' hockey game!
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#5596 grandmaster

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:30 PM

Well I guess the fact that the NHL is taking the night to review it has to be considered somewhat positive, right?

It's not like last time where they dismissed the counter within 20 minutes.

Obviously the NHL will come back and counter the counter. I really have a hard time believing they will accept anything proposed by the union. They want the deal to be there's, so that they maintain their authority over the players.


This is positive. It looks like with the deadlines now set, they know both sides have to pick it up and they seem to be doing so
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#5597 Nuxfanabroad

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:50 PM

Also say Dreger's tweet is a positive. NHL seems to have dropped the good/bad cop-posturing, & is now amenable towards actually negotiating. I wonder what would become of the desert dogs if this season were to be kaiboshed?

From the player's pov: Recently read of another tupolev-crash in Russia. Gotta' be unnerving to travel in the KHL. Perhaps they're realizing the standards they've left behind?..
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#5598 CanuckInUS

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:43 PM

Am I the only one who is skeptical about this January 11th date? I mean, how does Bettman suddenly pull this 48 game requirement out of his ass when he cancelled the season in February last time?


I'm pretty sure the owners have suggested that there be a drop-dead date so they can start filling calendar dates for other events. Although, for any meaningful event (concerts, conventions, shows, etc.), they require at least 6 months advance notice.

Owning a 15,000+ seat venue does you no good (as far as making any money is concerned) when a work stoppage forces you to keep every possible date available for a shortened season.
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#5599 G-52

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:57 PM

lmao. Really?! Someone who has apparently passed the BAR has the emotional intelligence of a 12 y/o who just had their bike taken away. Apparently I gave you too much credit in assuming you were talking about cap hit and not just player salary.

Anyway if we're doing physical threats now, I'd be happy to step in for Provost. I work out 6 days a week, I have a blackbelt in taekwondo, I've won tournaments in Thai kickboxing, and I am currently training in Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

Now if we're going to be adults and stop the pissing contest I suggest you provide a more defined legal definition of 'rollback' that only you seem to possess.


You gave me too much credit because I made a tongue in cheek comment about a guy that was talking crap to me? I think it is you that needs to grow up. Furthermore on the topic at hand, his entire argument is over the use of the word rollback. It only has two uses which I indicated in pages previous. You cant take words from the English language and just give them meanings willy nilly. It comes down to context, and definitions. If in the contract they define "rollback" as something specific then so be it, we don't have a contract to look at. I'm tiring of this argument because I believe and has been previously stated, it is pointless and is clearly an issue of semantics.

Congrats in Thai kickboxing, useless, but still impressive. I've been training in kung fu myself since I was 7. You will like jiu-jitsu a lot better.
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#5600 Provost

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 09:35 PM

You gave me too much credit because I made a tongue in cheek comment about a guy that was talking crap to me? I think it is you that needs to grow up. Furthermore on the topic at hand, his entire argument is over the use of the word rollback. It only has two uses which I indicated in pages previous. You cant take words from the English language and just give them meanings willy nilly. It comes down to context, and definitions. If in the contract they define "rollback" as something specific then so be it, we don't have a contract to look at. I'm tiring of this argument because I believe and has been previously stated, it is pointless and is clearly an issue of semantics.

Congrats in Thai kickboxing, useless, but still impressive. I've been training in kung fu myself since I was 7. You will like jiu-jitsu a lot better.


Yawn... you are welcome to keep showing your ignorance.

Go tell Shea Weber, Zach Parise, and Ryan Suter that giving them a rollback vs. escrow calculation is semantics. The difference to them over the life of their contracts will be around 10-15 million dollars each.

You could always spend time going and reading the various offers that have been made public since October (many of them not just "media highlights" that you despise but the full detail of the contract offers released by both sides publicly). They clearly spell out the rollback vs. escrow process and affirm in each one that they will not be doing a rollback. I guess I forgot you are too busy... you only have time to keep posting random crap you make up in this thread.

You have also shown that you are either lying about studying law or that there is a very good reason why you were never given employment practicing it. Understanding contract language is a basic element of virtually all branches of law.

You continue to insult various posters calling them various names. mocking them, and being condescending when they all have a greater understanding than you... and have probably actually spent time reading and coming up with informed opinions which you readily admit that you haven't bothered doing.
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#5601 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:28 AM

You gave me too much credit because I made a tongue in cheek comment about a guy that was talking crap to me? I think it is you that needs to grow up. Furthermore on the topic at hand, his entire argument is over the use of the word rollback. It only has two uses which I indicated in pages previous. You cant take words from the English language and just give them meanings willy nilly. It comes down to context, and definitions. If in the contract they define "rollback" as something specific then so be it, we don't have a contract to look at. I'm tiring of this argument because I believe and has been previously stated, it is pointless and is clearly an issue of semantics.

Congrats in Thai kickboxing, useless, but still impressive. I've been training in kung fu myself since I was 7. You will like jiu-jitsu a lot better.


Ok so just as a review, you go off on some tangent about the term 'rollback', and how it applies to player salaries. You get called on it and proven otherwise. You then go on to what I have titled a 'pissing match' which could otherwise be interpreted as a nonsensical threat, to which you are trumped by 3 other users who seem to be able to piss further than you (in terms of MA). Now instead of acknowledging or making reference to the initial argument, you have since implied that all of your posting has been incendiary - meant only to frustrate those that oppose your opinion.

So which is it then, are you going to prove me and Provost wrong in defining 'rollback' and escrow as to how it applies in the latest proposal, or are you implying that the last two pages of your posting is incendiary?
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#5602 G-52

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:56 AM

It was not I that went off on a tangent, that would be provost. Perhaps there was a small pissing match, though if there was that was only your perception as it was not mine. And 3 users disagreeing with me is hardly noteworthy, there are also lots of users that agree with me. Over all this damn rollback talk I have lost the initial thing we were even discussing but that probably has something to do with the many drinks ive had.

Im pretty drunk atm im not gonna lie but like I said this is a stupid argument that shouldn't even be happening. Id like to better prove my point but ill be honest, im drunk and I really just dont care that much. Its a lot of effort man..
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#5603 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 04:20 AM

lol, someone should make a I have a black belt in ..... what about you? thread

anyways, any updates on the PA counter offer? haven't really seen anything on TSN or SPSN

Edit. just watching That's Hockey, no details out yet.


I have a black belt in the ancient yorkshire martial art of Ecky Thump


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#5604 wizeman

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:18 AM

Exactly this. If the final CBA is based on the latest NHL proposal with some tweaks then Bettman cleaned Fehr's clock.


There is no doubt he did. Can you imagine hiring this super high profile mouth piece to go to bat for you a year and a half in advance. All to find your self 800 mil in lost revenue, and the deal you have is basically the owners deal?

Who is going to hire Fehr now? Trevor LInden could have negotiated this deal for the Union back in the summer. They could have saved the whole season and probably got a 6 year CBA instead of a 8/10 year deal.
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#5605 70seven

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:32 AM

You guys talk about this as though it was a couple whiney teenagers negotiating this deal...

Truth is that it was ALWAYS going to be an owners deal. It HAD to be this way. There is a problem with the way the CBA was structured, and it NEEDED to be FIXED. The NHL cant get the huge tv deals that the NBA, NFL, and MLB has, which is their main stream of income, thus the players cannot be paid similarly to these sports.

The players complain about their rights being taken away, when truth be told, it's all being done for the overall health of the sport. You cant argue that there arent lower end players making way more money than they should, and top end players that arent making what theyre worth to the business. Players argue that its the owners and gms that are the ones giving that money and term away, but the truth is that theyre only doing it out of necessity. Its really the players agents driving up their clients prices by using multipul teams as an autcioning period, while driving up market value for every other player of similar stature. This is the system that the owners are trying to cap, and it makes total and complete sense for the longevity of the business, and the game that has worked so hard on bringing parity throughout the league. Puting a cap on contract legnth and variance will put a cap on what agents can auction off, and ultimatley help star players from bolting from their drafted teams... This is GOOD. We as fans should want this structure.

IM not arguing with anyone here, just delivering my opinion on why this is not a deal that the players could have ever "won". You really think that anyone could have done a better job? If the players offered this exact deal 3 months ago, the league would have still let it get to this point, and the players would have ended up with much less. It a billion dollar business, and the billionaires involved diddnt get to be billionaires by being overly generous pushovers. Yes they are hockey fans who want to see the game, but it needed to be fixed so that there werent just a hand full of teams supporting the whole league. These teams want and deserve to keep what theyre able to generate, wouldnt you want the same?

This is not about paying the players what they deserve, its about fixing the broken system, while having a healthy and stable league where every team can be competitive, and can compete for their own superstars, instead of watching them bolt for the cash year after year. There will still be UFAs to sign elsewhere, but their power to "Wizniewski" up the prices will be limited, and teams will have to pay in cap hit to make those decisions. A deminished cap will not create less jobs, but stop agents from scoring these obscene deals for the average at best players. The outcome should be that the superstars, who are really the ones that sell the sport make the most, while the plugs are paid accordingly, and you dont have 5 or 6 average players making 4-5 million dollars, when their worth is closer to 2-3 million per season.


Anyways... I could go on and on, and honestly its nice to do so, with hockey seeming not so distant.


ON a side note: One rule I thought that the PA and league might agree on is a "Franchise" tag on one player on each team whos additional salary (after a specific number... say 5M) does not count against the cap. An exception for the players who really make their business much more than theyre paid. (Crosby, Stamkos, Ovi, Datsyuk, Giroux, Toews... etc...). Teams can keep these players without having to blow 15% of their cap on one player. And honestly, these are the players that actually deserve the extra money. There would however be a clause on the deal, and it would be that players could only obtain this "franchise tag" from the city in which they were playing for as they reach UFA status... Furthur helping teams keeping their drafted and/or developed superstar. Maybe Parise is still a Devil, Suter still a Predator, or possibly give Anaheim a better chance of holding onto Getzlaf or Perry... meh, just a thought...

Edited by 70seven, 01 January 2013 - 10:34 AM.

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#5606 Alex Edler 23

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:44 AM

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#5607 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:21 PM

@MaStrozyk
Max Talbot not returning to Finland. Agreed with Ilves that he'll head to North America. Interested in returning if whole season canceled.
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#5608 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:17 PM

You gave me too much credit because I made a tongue in cheek comment about a guy that was talking crap to me? I think it is you that needs to grow up. Furthermore on the topic at hand, his entire argument is over the use of the word rollback. It only has two uses which I indicated in pages previous. You cant take words from the English language and just give them meanings willy nilly. It comes down to context, and definitions. If in the contract they define "rollback" as something specific then so be it, we don't have a contract to look at. I'm tiring of this argument because I believe and has been previously stated, it is pointless and is clearly an issue of semantics.

Congrats in Thai kickboxing, useless, but still impressive. I've been training in kung fu myself since I was 7. You will like jiu-jitsu a lot better.


You must have a hard time buying contraceptives. ;)

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 01 January 2013 - 01:18 PM.

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#5609 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:21 PM

@HockeyyInsiderr
BREAKING NEWS: Even before bargaining session, HUGE progress being done> per @NHL source LOCKOUT 95% OVER #CONFIRMED #HockeyyInsiderr @NHLPA

Not a valid source, but let's see if he's right.
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#5610 playboi19

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:27 PM

@HockeyyInsiderr
BREAKING NEWS: Even before bargaining session, HUGE progress being done> per @NHL source LOCKOUT 95% OVER #CONFIRMED #HockeyyInsiderr @NHLPA

Not a valid source, but let's see if he's right.

Yes lets see if a 17 year old kid from montreal is right.
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