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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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#5611 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:31 PM

Yes lets see if a 17 year old kid from montreal is right.


I wonder where he gets his NHL source from.
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#5612 playboi19

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:33 PM

I wonder where he gets his NHL source from.

He watches what legit people like Bob Mackenzie and Dreger say on Twitter. Then he pretends he has sources and adds a percentage to look smart.
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#5613 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:45 PM

He watches what legit people like Bob Mackenzie and Dreger say on Twitter. Then he pretends he has sources and adds a percentage to look smart.


@BroadStBull
Apparently, the "insider" hockey guy is a hoax. Move on.
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#5614 wizeman

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:53 PM

You guys talk about this as though it was a couple whiney teenagers negotiating this deal...

Truth is that it was ALWAYS going to be an owners deal. It HAD to be this way. There is a problem with the way the CBA was structured, and it NEEDED to be FIXED. The NHL cant get the huge tv deals that the NBA, NFL, and MLB has, which is their main stream of income, thus the players cannot be paid similarly to these sports.

The players complain about their rights being taken away, when truth be told, it's all being done for the overall health of the sport. You cant argue that there arent lower end players making way more money than they should, and top end players that arent making what theyre worth to the business. Players argue that its the owners and gms that are the ones giving that money and term away, but the truth is that theyre only doing it out of necessity. Its really the players agents driving up their clients prices by using multipul teams as an autcioning period, while driving up market value for every other player of similar stature. This is the system that the owners are trying to cap, and it makes total and complete sense for the longevity of the business, and the game that has worked so hard on bringing parity throughout the league. Puting a cap on contract legnth and variance will put a cap on what agents can auction off, and ultimatley help star players from bolting from their drafted teams... This is GOOD. We as fans should want this structure.

IM not arguing with anyone here, just delivering my opinion on why this is not a deal that the players could have ever "won". You really think that anyone could have done a better job? If the players offered this exact deal 3 months ago, the league would have still let it get to this point, and the players would have ended up with much less. It a billion dollar business, and the billionaires involved diddnt get to be billionaires by being overly generous pushovers. Yes they are hockey fans who want to see the game, but it needed to be fixed so that there werent just a hand full of teams supporting the whole league. These teams want and deserve to keep what theyre able to generate, wouldnt you want the same?

This is not about paying the players what they deserve, its about fixing the broken system, while having a healthy and stable league where every team can be competitive, and can compete for their own superstars, instead of watching them bolt for the cash year after year. There will still be UFAs to sign elsewhere, but their power to "Wizniewski" up the prices will be limited, and teams will have to pay in cap hit to make those decisions. A deminished cap will not create less jobs, but stop agents from scoring these obscene deals for the average at best players. The outcome should be that the superstars, who are really the ones that sell the sport make the most, while the plugs are paid accordingly, and you dont have 5 or 6 average players making 4-5 million dollars, when their worth is closer to 2-3 million per season.


Anyways... I could go on and on, and honestly its nice to do so, with hockey seeming not so distant.


ON a side note: One rule I thought that the PA and league might agree on is a "Franchise" tag on one player on each team whos additional salary (after a specific number... say 5M) does not count against the cap. An exception for the players who really make their business much more than theyre paid. (Crosby, Stamkos, Ovi, Datsyuk, Giroux, Toews... etc...). Teams can keep these players without having to blow 15% of their cap on one player. And honestly, these are the players that actually deserve the extra money. There would however be a clause on the deal, and it would be that players could only obtain this "franchise tag" from the city in which they were playing for as they reach UFA status... Furthur helping teams keeping their drafted and/or developed superstar. Maybe Parise is still a Devil, Suter still a Predator, or possibly give Anaheim a better chance of holding onto Getzlaf or Perry... meh, just a thought...


So the question comes back to the same thing it always came back to. Why did they hire Donald Fehr ? The players never deserved 57% of the revenue in the long run. The union never even defined what it was fighting the owners for. Except the 57% of the pie they wanted to keep.

The owners are not being greedy . 50% of the revenue to the players is fair. The owners are trying to be realistic and pragmatic. They need the contract length maximums. They need stability and they need to spread out the wealth. The only thing I give the players is their concern that the owners screw themselves up in their business dealings and that affects the players. So, lets have a little more input from the union in regards to major business decisions aka the Coyotes situation.
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#5615 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:53 PM

@mirtle
A 48-game NHL season over 103 days (until May 1) would be 3.26 games a week. Normal regular season rate is roughly 3.05 a week.
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#5616 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:23 PM

@Real_ESPNLeBrun
NHLPA announces full committee bargaining session pushed back to 630 pm/7 pm ET range

@DarrenDreger
Told you...long day. Full negotiation meeting delayed to 6:30 - 7pm.

@RenLavoieRDS
NHL CBA talks won't start before 6:30 PM in the NHL office in New York.
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#5617 juskay

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:30 PM

You guys talk about this as though it was a couple whiney teenagers negotiating this deal...

Truth is that it was ALWAYS going to be an owners deal. It HAD to be this way. There is a problem with the way the CBA was structured, and it NEEDED to be FIXED. The NHL cant get the huge tv deals that the NBA, NFL, and MLB has, which is their main stream of income, thus the players cannot be paid similarly to these sports.

The players complain about their rights being taken away, when truth be told, it's all being done for the overall health of the sport. You cant argue that there arent lower end players making way more money than they should, and top end players that arent making what theyre worth to the business. Players argue that its the owners and gms that are the ones giving that money and term away, but the truth is that theyre only doing it out of necessity. Its really the players agents driving up their clients prices by using multipul teams as an autcioning period, while driving up market value for every other player of similar stature. This is the system that the owners are trying to cap, and it makes total and complete sense for the longevity of the business, and the game that has worked so hard on bringing parity throughout the league. Puting a cap on contract legnth and variance will put a cap on what agents can auction off, and ultimatley help star players from bolting from their drafted teams... This is GOOD. We as fans should want this structure.

IM not arguing with anyone here, just delivering my opinion on why this is not a deal that the players could have ever "won". You really think that anyone could have done a better job? If the players offered this exact deal 3 months ago, the league would have still let it get to this point, and the players would have ended up with much less. It a billion dollar business, and the billionaires involved diddnt get to be billionaires by being overly generous pushovers. Yes they are hockey fans who want to see the game, but it needed to be fixed so that there werent just a hand full of teams supporting the whole league. These teams want and deserve to keep what theyre able to generate, wouldnt you want the same?

This is not about paying the players what they deserve, its about fixing the broken system, while having a healthy and stable league where every team can be competitive, and can compete for their own superstars, instead of watching them bolt for the cash year after year. There will still be UFAs to sign elsewhere, but their power to "Wizniewski" up the prices will be limited, and teams will have to pay in cap hit to make those decisions. A deminished cap will not create less jobs, but stop agents from scoring these obscene deals for the average at best players. The outcome should be that the superstars, who are really the ones that sell the sport make the most, while the plugs are paid accordingly, and you dont have 5 or 6 average players making 4-5 million dollars, when their worth is closer to 2-3 million per season.


Anyways... I could go on and on, and honestly its nice to do so, with hockey seeming not so distant.


ON a side note: One rule I thought that the PA and league might agree on is a "Franchise" tag on one player on each team whos additional salary (after a specific number... say 5M) does not count against the cap. An exception for the players who really make their business much more than theyre paid. (Crosby, Stamkos, Ovi, Datsyuk, Giroux, Toews... etc...). Teams can keep these players without having to blow 15% of their cap on one player. And honestly, these are the players that actually deserve the extra money. There would however be a clause on the deal, and it would be that players could only obtain this "franchise tag" from the city in which they were playing for as they reach UFA status... Furthur helping teams keeping their drafted and/or developed superstar. Maybe Parise is still a Devil, Suter still a Predator, or possibly give Anaheim a better chance of holding onto Getzlaf or Perry... meh, just a thought...



Well said, I agree with your opinion. A franchise tag is a good idea, could even be expanded to more than one player per team if revenue increase's?
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#5618 Snake Doctor

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:13 PM

@Real_ESPNLeBrun
NHLPA announces full committee bargaining session pushed back to 630 pm/7 pm ET range

@DarrenDreger
Told you...long day. Full negotiation meeting delayed to 6:30 - 7pm.

@RenLavoieRDS
NHL CBA talks won't start before 6:30 PM in the NHL office in New York.


I'm optimistic that a deal is in the works
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#5619 Remy

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 04:23 PM

I'm optimistic that a deal is in the works


I'm still skeptical but I hope you're right.
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#5620 DeNiro

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 04:44 PM

Patrick Caisse@PatrickCaisse
An NHLPA member just told me that he expects an agreement in principle "sooner than later". #Lockout #NHL


Lets hope this guy is right.

He works for TVA sports. Isn't that the same people that reported the Corey Perry deal?
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#5621 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:15 PM

@reporterchris: The NHL still hasn't indicated to the NHLPA that they're ready to resume talks. #lockoutstakeout
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#5622 poetica

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:27 PM

So the question comes back to the same thing it always came back to. Why did they hire Donald Fehr ? The players never deserved 57% of the revenue in the long run. The union never even defined what it was fighting the owners for. Except the 57% of the pie they wanted to keep.

The owners are not being greedy . 50% of the revenue to the players is fair. The owners are trying to be realistic and pragmatic. They need the contract length maximums. They need stability and they need to spread out the wealth. The only thing I give the players is their concern that the owners screw themselves up in their business dealings and that affects the players. So, lets have a little more input from the union in regards to major business decisions aka the Coyotes situation.


To be fair, players didn't get 57% of "revenue", they got 57% of SOME revenue MINUS SOME costs known as "HRR." The owners specifically defined "HRR" to exclude some revenues (including, for example, the $60M paid to the NHL just for the right to relocate the Thrashers to Winnipeg) and to allow owners to deduct millions in costs BEFORE the players' share was determined. So, in reality players got around 51% of revenue last season.

Also, you will note that the players generated significantly more than 57% of the revenue. It's them playing we pay to see. It's their names we pay huge amounts to have sewn onto the back of an already overpriced jersey. It's their posters, signed pictures, growth charts, etc. that we pay to purchase. It's them people pay to go and see at fan events. It them people pay huge bucks to watch during the All Stars game.

And I absolutely think the owners are greedy because they get millions a year from taxpayers, starting with luxury tax breaks the likes of which other businesses that create far more jobs and actually help the local economy can only dream about. (If you're interested, look back in this thread and find the link to the research that's shown pro sports teams do not improve the local economy but might actually hurt it.) Some get arenas built for them at little or no cost to them while they get most of the profits. Some, including Phoenix and Florida, actually get taxpayers to pay them to keep their teams in town by giving them money to run the arena even though taxpayers get nothing in return but the bill for the loans to build it. (The mighty NHL, a registered not-for-profit in the US, if you can believe it, got paid $25M a year while they've owned the Coyotes to offset their costs for running the arena. In return, the taxpayers got to keep paying off the loans to build the arena. Oh, and politicians who just committed $308M more of taxpayers money over the next 20 years to keep the team in Arizona.)

Owners can whine to me about how much players are costing them when they stop costing taxpayers, even those who don't watch hockey, millions every single year at the expense of things that would actually help the community for their private profit.

So yes, private companies that make millions a year off of taxpayers are greedy. An organization, even by their own admission, that is in the "business of making money" that registers as a "not-for-profit" to save themselves tens of millions a year in taxes that any other business would have to pay, even as social safety nets are cut due to lack of funding, is greedy. Billionaires that get minimum wage taxpayers to foot the bill for their new arena they could have afforded to pay for out of their pocket change, while hospitals have to have charities just to be able to afford to upgrade their equipment, and cities (like Glendale) run deficits that result in blue collar people losing their jobs are greedy.

Maybe the players are greedy for wanting so much. That's a whole other debate to be honest. But at least what they want is just a part of they help to make, unlike the greedy owners who want yearly handouts from taxpayers when they had little or no part in generating that revenue.
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Every single one of them.

Thanks for the memories, Luo! :'(

#5623 DeNiro

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

Bruce Garrioch@SunGarrioch
The meeting between the #NHL and #NHLPA will begin at 9 p.m EST


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#5624 cs2016

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:15 PM


Renaud Lavoie@RenLavoieRDS

9 PM is when the next NHL CBA talks should start.

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#5625 DeNiro

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:17 PM

@Real_ESPNLeBrun:League needed extra time to complete its response to NHLPA counter.” #nhl response " lol" #cba


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#5626 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:15 PM

@reporterchris: NHL talks: Revenue sharing is said to be extremely close to done. An issue has cropped up on the pension front, which was previously close.
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#5627 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:16 PM

They`re back at it, although it doesn't seem like anyone is covering it.
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#5628 DeNiro

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:31 PM

@reporterchris: NHL talks: Revenue sharing is said to be extremely close to done. An issue has cropped up on the pension front, which was previously close.


Someone on twitter reported the main issues are the pensions and make whole now.

It seems to match other reports that a deal is close.
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#5629 DeNiro

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:54 PM

Alex Bacon@abacon55
#NHL and #NHLPA expect to meet again tomorrow after owners gave a response to the players latest proposal. #CBA


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#5630 playboi19

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:04 PM

Finally they are actually negotiating. The two sides should have just went silent for 3 months like the 04/05 lockout.
Deadline hunters.
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#5631 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:08 PM

Still easier for the Owners to vote on a player proposed CBA. 30 owners on conference call voting is a lot quicker than 700+ union members submitting a ballot. But the owners seems to want the last word.
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#5632 Lups

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:30 PM

I like following HockeyyInsiderr. Even though he gets his info from other places, I'd rather follow 1 person than a whole bunch. I dont care where the news comes from, I just wanna know whats up in the hockey world lol
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#5633 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:36 PM

@RenLavoieRDS: Revenue sharing is close to a done deal. The NHLPA move in the direction of the NHL by accepting a 10 year CBA with certain conditions.
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#5634 Sergei Shirokov

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:39 PM

Had Bettman and Daly not thrown their tantrum back in Dec 6th, i bet we coulda had 2-3 more weeks of hockey.
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#5635 BoKnows53

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:07 PM

I like following HockeyyInsiderr. Even though he gets his info from other places, I'd rather follow 1 person than a whole bunch. I dont care where the news comes from, I just wanna know whats up in the hockey world lol

Then follow one of TSN's NHL insiders.

Hockeyinsiderr tweets useless rumours, which are complete BS.
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#5636 cs2016

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:21 PM

Then follow one of TSN's NHL insiders.

Hockeyinsiderr tweets useless rumours, which are complete BS.

At least he's toned done his arrogance.
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#5637 Lups

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:26 PM

Then follow one of TSN's NHL insiders.

Hockeyinsiderr tweets useless rumours, which are complete BS.


I follow TSNs DD

Also, Other than 1 rumour, there hasnt been any big rumours that HI got wrong that he claimed he was right. So it doesnt bother me. His tweets do make me laugh though.

The exception was the tweet about Zach Parise 99% going to sign in the 'burgh
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#5638 poetica

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:33 PM

@Real_ESPNLeBrun: Don Fehr just spoke. Says NHL made a counter. NHLPA will look at it internally and both sides will meet again tomorrow at some point


@Real_ESPNLeBrun: Fehr; "They did make a comprehensive response to what we gave them yesterday."


@Real_ESPNLeBrun: Bettman just met media. Measured in his comments. Asked if there's traction: "It's a process that's ongoing and I'm thankful for that."


@Real_ESPNLeBrun: Bettman said they responded the NHLPA's way on some things they wanted in counter but also had to say no on other items the union wanted.


@jonasTSN1050: Bettman more or less re-iterates Fehr's message. Says he's "thankful" that process is ongoing. Two sides will reconnect tomorrow.


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Every single one of them.

Thanks for the memories, Luo! :'(

#5639 zombieksa

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:41 PM

Nick Kypreos@RealKyper
Although it hasn't been brought up in negotiations both #NHL #NHLPA have had internal discussions on 4 more teams qualifying for playoffs


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#5640 zombieksa

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:43 PM

DP.

To think, if this was the case for last season, we could have ended up playing the flames or stars.

Edited by knoxdown, 01 January 2013 - 09:45 PM.

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