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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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#1171 Owen Nolan

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:58 PM

The problem seems to be with the NHLPA right now.

It sounds like they're not even willing to discuss the idea of a salary rollback for this coming season. That's why talks were broken off so quickly today.

The players are willing to lose an entire season for nothing apparently. The NHL's stance isn't going to change next season if that's what they're hoping for.

They don't seem to realize that these Billionaire owner's don't need the NHL to make money, but the players do. Hence the fact they have leverage over the players.


Yes, everything Bill Daly says is true.

Edited by Owen Nolan, 02 October 2012 - 04:59 PM.

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#1172 DeNiro

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:23 PM

Yes, everything Bill Daly says is true.


Have you heard the media report any counter-proposal by the NHLPA since their original offer?
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#1173 canuckelhead70

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:32 PM

At least one Canadian hockey player who has been plying his trade in Europe for years is ticked off about locked out NHLers taking jobs overseas.
Former Manitoba Moose forward Brandon Reid is concerned about players in his league losing jobs because millionaires from the NHL want something to do while they are in a labour battle with the owners.
"It's not really fair to the guys who will be benched or lose their jobs," Reid said. "And for teams who can't afford to get the NHL guys."
Reid, 31, is playing for the Hamburg Freezers of the German Elite League this year and has seven seasons under his belt in Europe.
He has played 10 career NHL games with the Vancouver Canucks and recorded six points, and spent parts of four seasons in the AHL with the Moose.
The Montreal native is expressing a sentiment that is likely felt around European leagues at the moment. Locked out NHL players have agreed to temporary deals in Russia, Switzerland, Germany, Sweden and Finland.
If the NHL lockout ends, they'll be gone in a heartbeat, but right now, somebody who had a job is about to lose it because these players are coming in.
"It will be exciting for the league and for the fans, but I don't get why they'll come play here for less," Reid said.
A good point.
These players are not happy with the millions they would get out of 50% of all the revenue coming into the NHL, but they are willing to take someone else's job and play for a couple hundred grand in Europe?
The NHL lockout began last Saturday about a week before training camps were slated to open.
Players immediately began signing with European teams, including Alex Ovechkin (Dynamo Moscow, KHL), Evgeni Malkin (Metallurg Magnitogorsk, KHL ), Anze Kopitar (Mora IK, Sweden), Ilya Kovalchuk (St. Petersburg, KHL), Jaromir Jagr (HC Kladno, Czech Republic), Jason Spezza (Rapperswil-Jona Lakers, Switzerland), Joe Thornton and Rick Nash (HC Davos, Switzerland), and goalie Nicklas Backstrom (Dynamo Minsk, KHL). Winnipeg Jets players Alexei Ponikarovksy and Ondrej Pavelec also inked overseas deals (though Pavelec's fell through).
Penguins superstar Sidney Crosby is reportedly considering joining Malkin in the KHL.
All this comes before NHL players would normally start getting paid, at the start of the regular season. Imagine how many players are going to want to head across the pond when they start missing paycheques?
Peter Lee, general manager of the Berlin Polar Bears of the German Elite League, told Sun Media he can't keep up with all the calls and e-mails from agents trying to find work for their clients.
"Guys are coming over here because they want to play," Lee said. "I don't think guys are coming over here to make money and pay the bills because I don't think that's realistic."
That's where the problem lies for many players who would be in Europe regardless of a lockout. They do need the money to pay the bills.
Most imports in Europe are well-paid to be sure, but it's chump change compared with what NHL players make.
Still, Reid can see some positives in the arrival of NHL superstars on the European scene.
"I'm excited to play against them and maybe with some." he said. "You never know, maybe this will show everyone we're not such different level players."
As long as they still get a chance to play, that is.
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#1174 gurn

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:33 PM

The players do not need the nhl to make money.
They can play in KHL, the Swedish leagues or various other hockey leagues.
They can also get another job outside of hockey if they choose.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear a lot of out of work hockey players doing more adds and such.
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#1175 samurai

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:34 PM

Yes, everything Bill Daly says is true.



Well to a certain extent it is - the NHL has said there are going to be rollbacks in one shape or form - that is true and it will happen -everyone seems to understand this except Fehr and some of the players. On this issue the NHL has made it pretty clear and demonstrated as well that within this framework of rollbacks they are willing to negotiate towards something close to 50 50 which is consistent with what other more profitable leagues have. I actually think the NHL is being pretty reasonable and transparent about it all - mind their first proposal was a horrible mess up.

Who i think is out to lunch and misreading/miscalculating everything including public sentiment is Fehr and the players. There are very few people today in these past few years who have not had wages cut or even lost jobs - union or no union.

My take is that Fehr and the players have again backed themselves into a corner where it will be not hard to conclude that they lost.

I think as Lebrun has said that if things don't get done quick here that the whole season could be lost - we are at a critical place.

Overall though this second lockout is going to hurt the league and players in the worst possible ways. For that reason both sides are idiotic. it is a simple story of GREED. If i was a 3rd and 4th liner with only a few years to play in the league i would equally be pissed at the players association. And yeah it is pretty shameful of the NHL players to be taking jobs away from other guys - that is despicable. I would never take a job if it meant some person had to lose his/her - lack of pride is worse than lack of money.

It is strange why the players choose to fight battles they know they won't win. Even the economics at the end of the day do not warrant a stance.

Edited by samurai, 02 October 2012 - 05:43 PM.

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#1176 elvis15

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:41 PM

The players haven't been all "100% no rollbacks ever" either. They've stated they want to have the dollar amounts they'd been promised this year and slowly work that down through escrow and revenue sharing. They've stated they're willing to put the money they lose towards the franchises that struggle currently, which is why the league isn't as profitable as it should be (which is the owners argument to why more cuts have to come).

Two sides to every story, and both have their own idea as to which is right.
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#1177 samurai

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:46 PM

The players haven't been all "100% no rollbacks ever" either. They've stated they want to have the dollar amounts they'd been promised this year and slowly work that down through escrow and revenue sharing. They've stated they're willing to put the money they lose towards the franchises that struggle currently, which is why the league isn't as profitable as it should be (which is the owners argument to why more cuts have to come).

Two sides to every story, and both have their own idea as to which is right.


Essentially what they have said is they will take less of future profit increases (that's what they call a rollback) but that in fact actually involves salary increases just less of the presumed growing profits, they have also said that they would do this if the money was used for a system to stabilize the league. They want what they are supposed to be paid and then some, but what they are giving up is a percent of future revenue increases. Sounds good in some ways but it's all based on 'ifs' and 'future projections'. It is not a concrete rollback.
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#1178 Standing_Tall#37

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:05 PM

I think some of them(spoiled millionaires) should go trip some pipe in ft st John this winter, get to do a mans job for 16 hours a day in minus 30. See how good they have it. Secondly fans should wake up and stop supporting the owners getting richer due to outrageous ticket prices. Support your team in the local pub, or at home or at a friends house. But send the owners a message once all this bs clears. Hopefully the KHL starts airing some games up here(not just on espn) and gives the NHL in general a serious wake-up call.
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#1179 elvis15

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:26 PM

Essentially what they have said is they will take less of future profit increases (that's what they call a rollback) but that in fact actually involves salary increases just less of the presumed growing profits, they have also said that they would do this if the money was used for a system to stabilize the league. They want what they are supposed to be paid and then some, but what they are giving up is a percent of future revenue increases. Sounds good in some ways but it's all based on 'ifs' and 'future projections'. It is not a concrete rollback.

Indeed, and it's not perfect on either side. They're trying to be creative about a solution at least, but eventually both sides will have to figure out a middle ground.
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#1180 DeNiro

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:40 PM

The players do not need the nhl to make money.
They can play in KHL, the Swedish leagues or various other hockey leagues.
They can also get another job outside of hockey if they choose.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear a lot of out of work hockey players doing more adds and such.


Yea, if they want to make a fraction of the amount they make in the NHL and play at a lower level.

If they were willing to take less to play in the KHL or SEL, why not just take less and play in the NHL? I thought they all say that it's a privelege to play in the NHL. Apparently that's only true if they're making ridiculous salaries.

Edited by DeNiro, 02 October 2012 - 07:41 PM.

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#1181 SamJamIam

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 08:20 PM

Essentially what they have said is they will take less of future profit increases (that's what they call a rollback) but that in fact actually involves salary increases just less of the presumed growing profits, they have also said that they would do this if the money was used for a system to stabilize the league. They want what they are supposed to be paid and then some, but what they are giving up is a percent of future revenue increases. Sounds good in some ways but it's all based on 'ifs' and 'future projections'. It is not a concrete rollback.


Basically the players said "If you're going to ask for more allowance, you need to spend it on school supplies" and the owners said "No! I'm gonna buy chocolate!" When do these billionaires not act like 5 year olds?
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#1182 samurai

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:12 PM

Basically the players said "If you're going to ask for more allowance, you need to spend it on school supplies" and the owners said "No! I'm gonna buy chocolate!" When do these billionaires not act like 5 year olds?


I think its more like we want to make more money and this is the only way to help the weaker teams because we the rich teams aren't going to hand them over anymore money.

From a owner standpoint it makes perfect sense. Fehr has brought this issue to the forefront but I think he has goofed in the timing of it and tying it to the CBA negotiations. He is trying to fix a system which the owners don't think is broken. If he had floated this idea around last summer then it could have been eased in and perhaps given more thought and consideration. Generally when you are introducing something new you need to ease it in and give lots of time for debate and understanding it. For being a smart guy i found it amazing that he just threw it at the owners without any initial warning or hey we are thinking like this - what do you think. The reaction is the one you will get in every situation.

If you were a player who would you trust more. Okay this is the problem here is my radical solution lets role the dice (this is what Fehr's done). On the other this is the problem and this is what we are thinking and some of these ideas have been throw across to the NHL and this was their thoughts.

Edited by samurai, 02 October 2012 - 09:20 PM.

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#1183 ba;;isticsports

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:38 PM

Yes, I believe the richer Teams are tired of supporting the weaker teams with payments
There are far more NHLPA players than Owners of weaker teams.
I believe the Owners are saying, If you wanna keep this many of Your members employed, We are going to need Your help
You can help support them finacially as we do,by lowering the revenue sharing
The weaker teams saying, No unrestricted free agency as early as it is now
As it is now,the weaker teams cannot afford to retain these stars after developing them as they turn into stars,the fans of those teams dont get rewarded with their entertainment.with them now as true stars, and feel if the Player is not loyal,and the team is not loyal to keeping them,then they as fans are not either,- and stay away

The stars will always make the big money,and have already left to take jobs from other players who need/ want that lower paying job and Ironically will now play for far less than they ever will in the NHL,while the majority in the NHLPA lose that short window of opportunity by not playing at all
I would bet that the average NHL player does Not want this, and it is the richer players willing to prolong this, much like it is the richer teams saying enough is enough and the weaker teams saying we cannot compete.

The average NHL player does not have the longevity as the stars to reap in money, and being they are the majority of the NHLPA they will be the ones hit the hardest, No matter what, they wont be getting a raise,this year or next,and will not recoup their losses

They need each other to make money, to start acting like Business partners,instead of people seeking a divorce and settle at 50/50
The players (especially the lower paid ones) will never come out of this ahead
They are far from needing food stamps etc whatever they finally agree too

After getting the concessions from the Players and the richer teams finally getting the NHLPA to help themselves keep the weaker teams operating they should lower the Tickets in good faith somewhat (even though demand will price the tickets) The weaker markets have been practically giving tickets away compared to the successful teams.

As much as fans hate Bettman and have seen there game deteriorate and be watered down
There is No reason for the average NHL Player to hate him
It is because of what he has done,by allowing these Teams to operate, that has given them the chance to play in the Big League, for the Big money

The largest detractors of Bettman in theory should be the Fans,richer owners,richer players Not the majority of the NHLPA

one of the unrestricted free agency problems was regarding how a collage player starting at age 24 woud have to wait 10 yrs,(like a player out of junior) and would actualy not achieve unrestricted Free agency.
Why not just change free agency to 30 yrs of age or something,instead of 10 yrs NHL service?

Edited by ba;;isticsports, 02 October 2012 - 11:39 PM.

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#1184 Jägermeister

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:58 PM

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Edited by Jagermeister, 03 October 2012 - 12:00 AM.

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#1185 Remy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:44 AM

Yea, if they want to make a fraction of the amount they make in the NHL and play at a lower level.

If they were willing to take less to play in the KHL or SEL, why not just take less and play in the NHL? I thought they all say that it's a privelege to play in the NHL. Apparently that's only true if they're making ridiculous salaries.


Except that playing in the AHL or KHL would be temporary, and not a long-term career move. You're usually one of the few posters that I agree with fairly consistently, but it's hard to understand your criticism of the NHLPA. At worst, they are just as guilty as the owners. Even still, this is a lockout, not a strike. It's not that the players are completely in the right, but in comparison to the owners right now, it's hard to be critical of the one side that at least appears to be making a reasonable effort. The NHL's first offer was insulting, and they haven't produced a more agreeable one since, even though you claim that the NHLPA is the one stonewalling.
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#1186 Canucks_fo_life

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:43 PM


adater@adater

NHLPA (54.3) and NHL (49) are 5.3 percent apart on their offers for first year of new CBA. Meet in the damn middle and drop the puck



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#1187 coastal1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 04:04 PM

adater@adater
NHLPA (54.3) and NHL (49) are 5.3 percent apart on their offers for first year of new CBA. Meet in the damn middle and drop the puck


Why aren't you in charge. Oh i guess you would be fired because the players have said zero salary decrease, not negotiable. They only want to negotiate a reduction in the rate of increase in the salaries. So your 'solution' would be responded to by the players with a big fat NO.
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#1188 jovocop55

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 04:26 PM

get rid of a few teams first if they want the league to be healthy.. many owners are piss that they keep sharing their revenue with teams that will never make any $$$$
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#1189 SamJamIam

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:43 PM

Why aren't you in charge. Oh i guess you would be fired because the players have said zero salary decrease, not negotiable. They only want to negotiate a reduction in the rate of increase in the salaries. So your 'solution' would be responded to by the players with a big fat NO.


Are you actually attacking a poster for a tweet made by someone else which he's just passing on?

More interesting to me is that apparently the NHL is at 49% according to this tweet? Says who? Typo?
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#1190 Canucks_fo_life

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:30 AM

Why aren't you in charge. Oh i guess you would be fired because the players have said zero salary decrease, not negotiable. They only want to negotiate a reduction in the rate of increase in the salaries. So your 'solution' would be responded to by the players with a big fat NO.


Uuuuuuh....what?
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#1191 Salmonberries

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:14 AM

I can't believe the likes of Bob Mckenzie, Pierre McGuire and Darren Dreger still appear every day to report on nothing.

Is TSN really going to run That's Hockey all lockout?
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#1192 Drive-By Body Pierce

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:08 AM

I can't believe the likes of Bob Mckenzie, Pierre McGuire and Darren Dreger still appear every day to report on nothing.

Is TSN really going to run That's Hockey all lockout?


TSN might have contracts that they actually fulfill? :o
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#1193 Drive-By Body Pierce

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:10 AM

TSN might have contracts that they actually fulfill? :o


...unlike what the NHL is trying to do!
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#1194 canuckelhead70

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:22 AM

I can't believe the likes of Bob Mckenzie, Pierre McGuire and Darren Dreger still appear every day to report on nothing.

Is TSN really going to run That's Hockey all lockout?


That's hockey is a lot better then watching poker, which has somehow become a "sport"
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#1195 goalie13

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:35 AM

Regular season games have now been cancelled through to October 24th.

Source: http://canucks.nhl.c...s.htm?id=642784
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#1196 sandlakthehouse

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:41 PM

The problem here is that there is too big of a discrepancy between the profitable teams (Vancouver, Maple Leafs, Rangers etc.) and the big money losers (Florida, Phoenix, Dallas, etc.) I realize there are many issues in dispute but the real kick in the gonads here is that they know that us Canuck fans will surrender our cash for NHL hockey whenever it comes back and the money losers are simply losing less money than they normally would. Then they will present to the Stanley Cup to one of those lousy franchises like Tampa Bay, Carolina or whatever and the fans of those teams get to celebrate a victory that they don't even care about so its like we're suffering just so that fans in those markets can have a hockey team they don't really care for.
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#1197 theminister

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:03 PM

Dear Canucks Fans, 

Today, the National Hockey League announced the cancellation of the 2012.13 regular season schedule through October 24th. We understand the disappointment this news causes all of us who share a passion for hockey; however, we’re hopeful that a resolution will bring the season underway as soon as possible. 
 

We understand the concerns of our passionate and loyal fans, especially at this time. Our commitment to deliver exceptional experiences and reciprocate your unwavering support is stronger than ever. 
 

Giving back to our community is also of the greatest importance to us. Recently we had the opportunity to participate in a number of community programs including our annual Jake Milford Charity Golf Tournament, the Raise-a-Reader campaign and a rejuvenation project at Kensington Park Arena. On October 11th, our staff will volunteer with a number of local charities continuing an annual tradition called Live-to-Give Day. We will continue to focus the efforts and talent of our entire staff on supporting the values we hold dear: grassroots hockey, children’s health and wellness, literacy and the ongoing initiatives and outreach that help provide opportunities and assistance in the community in which we live. 
 

We truly appreciate your patience and loyalty and we look forward to playing in front of you at Rogers Arena once again.
Sincerely,
Mike Gillis
President & General Manager



No mention of your hourly paid staff at the arena who are the hardest hit by this? Aren't you the General Manager of the entire organization?

Excellent leadership there, Mike.
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#1198 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:03 PM

Does anyone know if bonuses get paid regardless of lockout? If not, then Weber's gigantic 26 million in 13 months gets nullified. I call that karma.
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#1199 goalie13

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:14 PM

Does anyone know if bonuses get paid regardless of lockout? If not, then Weber's gigantic 26 million in 13 months gets nullified. I call that karma.


I believe it does. If I am not mistaken, part of Philly's plan was to load up the contract with signing bonuses knowing that if there was a lockout they would still have to be paid, and hoping that Nashville couldn't afford that gamble.
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#1200 elvis15

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:24 PM

Yes, they are still paid. A signing bonus is used just like salary to calculate cap hit, but is actually paid immediately rather than in instalments like salary is. So, a signing bonus is paid on July 1st (or as soon as the contract is signed), as that's the first day after the old year has ended. Salary is only paid during the season (a portion every few weeks like a regular paycheck) based on the portion of the season they'd played during that time.

For example, Weber effectively got his $13M signing bonus for this year once Nashville matched the Philly offer sheet, but his $1M in salary is only paid out every few weeks during the season and is currently withheld until there are games. Come July 1st next year he gets another payment of $13M (year two's signing bonus), and the remaining $1M in salary would again be paid out during the season as games are played.

Edited by elvis15, 04 October 2012 - 02:29 PM.

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Tanev is going to EDM. I can put my life savings down on it

 





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