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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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#1411 Owen Nolan

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:47 PM

Everyones getting wayyyyyyyy ahead of themselves...
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#1412 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:54 PM

@TSNBobMcKenzie
In other words, a multi-year deal with an AAV of $10M would on a year by year basis not go up or down by more than $500K.
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#1413 Lui's Knob

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:23 PM

Gary Mason on Team said player reaction so far is negative and looks like they will reject it hands down. Again another dagger to Nhl hockey and a season....
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#1414 Pears

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:25 PM

Gary Mason on Team said player reaction so far is negative and looks like they will reject it hands down. Again another dagger to Nhl hockey and a season....

If they will reject it, all I have to say is....

:picard:
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#1415 KoreanHockeyFan

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:30 PM

Gary Mason on Team said player reaction so far is negative and looks like they will reject it hands down. Again another dagger to Nhl hockey and a season....


Not smart on the PA's part if this is true. All eyes are on them now, and if they drag this out any longer they're not going to have any support from the fans.

Oh well, today's deal made me a lot more optimistic. Can't wait for the season to start on November (assuming of course a deal is made within the week). Although, we won't have Edler and Kesler to start, I'll be more than happy to see our prospects such as Schroeder, Kassian, and Tanev to take a more crucial role on this team.
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#1416 samurai

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:35 PM

Gary Mason on Team said player reaction so far is negative and looks like they will reject it hands down. Again another dagger to Nhl hockey and a season....


Dude of course they are going to reject it, but what they have to do and will do is counter-propose. It's called negotiating. The mistake the players can possibly make is thinking they smell blood and think they can push a lot more. My guess is the NHL is not willing to go much further.
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#1417 RunningWild

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:44 PM

Interesting to note in the proposal that AHL contracts count against the cap in some way. Call it the Wade Redden rule. No more burying contracts in the minors. I wouldn't be surprised if there are similar loopholes closed. I wonder if they will close the retirement loophole?


Do you have a link for this info? I've been looking but can't find. Cheers.

EDIT: Found it http://www.thestar.c...-as-talks-begin

And the NHL wants AHL players under NHL contracts to count under the cap. No longer would $6.5 million-a-year players like Wade Redden be buried in the minors. But the more players who count under the cap, the less money there is for players on NHL rosters.


Also, TSN panel discussing some issues: Insider Trading

Edited by RunningWild, 16 October 2012 - 05:55 PM.

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#1418 theminister

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:25 PM

The League requesting that all NHL contracts count against the cap, including those in the AHL, is to try and make two-way clauses standard. It's a side ways attack at guaranteed contracts.

"Sure I'll give you a 5 year $30 mil deal with a full NTC but it has to include a two-way for $500k. You don't play well, you don't get paid."
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#1419 OurTimeToShine

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:31 PM

The League requesting that all NHL contracts count against the cap, including those in the AHL, is to try and make two-way clauses standard. It's a side ways attack at guaranteed contracts.

"Sure I'll give you a 5 year $30 mil deal with a full NTC but it has to include a two-way for $500k. You don't play well, you don't get paid."


Isn't that how it should be though? If you don't perform up to what you signed for you shouldn't be raking in the $$$
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#1420 WHL rocks

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:37 PM

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#1421 RunningWild

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:39 PM

Bob McKenzie@TSNBobMcKenzie

The floor for this season would be $43.9M and cap would be $59.9M altho in Year 1 teams could still spend to $70.2M but only in Year 1.

On trading of cap space/retaining salary, it would be limited to $3M for each contract year left or 50 per cent of AAV, whichever is less

Each club, in any given year, tho, would be subject to a 2 contract and/or $5M limit in terms of retaining salary.


Interesting for a Luongo trade. They could pay $3M of his $6.7M salary next yr.

Edited by RunningWild, 16 October 2012 - 09:00 PM.

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#1422 Mauii

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:00 PM

I understand now why this negotiation is stalemate...both parties simply aren't happy with the current situation or proposed situation and kudos to them for holding out until both parties needs are met. How about this...and people have brought up the issue of performance clauses. Instead of decreasing their salary how about going the other way by way of a performance bonus. So here's my proposal: performance bonuses do not count under the cap. This serves several purposes i) player's salaries will not be limited by the cap (something the player's despise) ii) owner's will only pay what the player is worth and not overpay...bad season base pay...good season more pay iii) salaries won't need to be buried in the AHL if the player is underperforming. I also think that if the team is not going to honor the player's new contracts as is, the player should have the option to accept or not accept the "new terms" considering that was not what they had signed up for.
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#1423 vancity787

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:41 PM

Listening to some people on here is ridiculous. Yeah. The players likely won't accept it. But what you don't know is NBC and HBO have told the NHL that a deal needs to be done or their contracts with both networks are in serious jeopardy. This offer, though it may not be ideal for the players is a STARTING POINT in negotions which will likely bring both sides closer for bargaining sessions in the near future.

Is it the greatest proposal ever? No . Is it a starting point? Yes because the NHL had enough balls to come forward and make the first reasonable offer.

The PA will likely tinker with the for a day or so and come back with another proposal.

Trust me people as bleak as everything seemed 24 hours ago. You have to tip your caps to Bettman and the owners.
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#1424 OrrFour

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:51 PM

Instead of decreasing their salary how about going the other way by way of a performance bonus. So here's my proposal: performance bonuses do not count under the cap. This serves several purposes i) player's salaries will not be limited by the cap (something the player's despise) ii) owner's will only pay what the player is worth and not overpay...bad season base pay...good season more pay iii) salaries won't need to be buried in the AHL if the player is underperforming.

So Alex Edler's next contract is the nhl minimum, but if he gets one assist he will receive his performance bonus of $8 million dollars.
Sounds great! We have a top dman signed for minimum cap hit.
We can go out and sign a couple of free agent power forwards next summer for league minimum too.
As a canucks fan I love it.
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#1425 Cromeslab

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:57 PM

Hmmmf,could this be the beginning of the end............to the lockout!
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#1426 Mauii

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:22 PM

So Alex Edler's next contract is the nhl minimum, but if he gets one assist he will receive his performance bonus of $8 million dollars.
Sounds great! We have a top dman signed for minimum cap hit.
We can go out and sign a couple of free agent power forwards next summer for league minimum too.
As a canucks fan I love it.

I like that league minimum across the board for all the players extra pay only by way of performance bonuses...owners may like this...players not so much especially those that have built their seniority and credentials. Performance structure is up to each team...ie. by percentages, target goals, per point, etc.
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#1427 goalie13

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:23 PM

So here's my proposal: performance bonuses do not count under the cap.


That would make the cap completely redundant. All the teams that can afford it would sign the top players at the league minimum with easy to achieve bonuses.

Not only that, the PA would never agree to it. You could take a guy like Redden, send him to the minors and then he would never be able to achieve any of his bonuses and would make far less money.
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#1428 Mauii

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:33 PM

That would make the cap completely redundant. All the teams that can afford it would sign the top players at the league minimum with easy to achieve bonuses.

Not only that, the PA would never agree to it. You could take a guy like Redden, send him to the minors and then he would never be able to achieve any of his bonuses and would make far less money.

I don't think a top player would go for league minimum...they would go to the team that would offer them the best deal and for elite players, league minimum would not cut it. If he outplays everyone in the minors and gets called up, he's back in the game but it's up to him to work for it. Under this system, he's simply not going to be a given the big dollars after putting in one good season and get away with not putting in the work for the remainder of his contract.
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#1429 goalie13

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:47 PM

I don't think a top player would go for league minimum...they would go to the team that would offer them the best deal and for elite players, league minimum would not cut it. If he outplays everyone in the minors and gets called up, he's back in the game but it's up to him to work for it. Under this system, he's simply not going to be a given the big dollars after putting in one good season and get away with not putting in the work for the remainder of his contract.


Not quite what I was going for. Here's a better example... Let's say Crosby & Malkin's deals were coming up. What would stop Pittsburgh (other than their own budget) from re-signing Crosby and Malkin for $2M each with huge performance bonuses in order to free up over $13M in cap space?
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#1430 Mauii

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:02 PM

Not quite what I was going for. Here's a better example... Let's say Crosby & Malkin's deals were coming up. What would stop Pittsburgh (other than their own budget) from re-signing Crosby and Malkin for $2M each with huge performance bonuses in order to free up over $13M in cap space?

A team that would give them a sure salary of $10M a year.
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#1431 goalie13

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:13 PM

A team that would give them a sure salary of $10M a year.


But that only works if they have the cap space available, and that's what I am trying to get at. Teams could circumvent the cap by colluding with players to give them the pay they want simply by loading the bulk of their pay into easy performance bonuses.

We might as well not have a cap then.
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#1432 Mauii

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:23 PM

But that only works if they have the cap space available, and that's what I am trying to get at. Teams could circumvent the cap by colluding with players to give them the pay they want simply by loading the bulk of their pay into easy performance bonuses.

We might as well not have a cap then.

Teams still need to work within the confines of a cap, however, there is the option for both the player and the team to offer a performance bonus. But the performance bonus is not a given, it's only received when it's earned based on set terms, and if the NHL believes the team is trying to circumvent the cap through assured performance bonuses they can do an audit and confirm if performance bonus payment = performance as per the performance clause terms ie. did they meet the set target goals, points, etc. Perhaps as added assurance, the teams don't get leeway in setting the performance bonus terms but may only include maybe one of 3 performance options set by the league or the higher of either options, etc, this is added insurance that this provision will not be used to manipulate the cap then auditing wouldn't be necessary.

Edited by Mauii, 17 October 2012 - 01:15 PM.

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#1433 DeNiro

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:48 PM

It's hard for me to be optimistic here. First of all, I don't think the players will accept the deal, and then they'll be back at square one.

Second of all, I don't think this was actually a legitimate offer by the NHL. I have a feeling that there's a bunch of little details included that they know the players will reject. But they got their positive headlines of a 50/50 split, which will seem fair to the average fan. So ultimately if the deal is rejected, the blame will go back on the players.

It was what the NHL discussed in their little focus group. They know a lockout is inevitable, but they don't want to hurt their image. So somehow they have to spin it so that the players are to blame. This is how they accomplish that. And they come off as looking like they want to "preserve" the entire season. When really this lockout has probably been planned for months.

Edited by DeNiro, 16 October 2012 - 11:52 PM.

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#1434 fwybwed

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:59 AM

50-50, hmmm if the players dont accept,...then who's greedy~!?!?
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#1435 wshdrvvn

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:16 AM

does anyone else get mad when you see the two turd faces that are holding up the season?
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#1436 Lancaster

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:46 AM

So Alex Edler's next contract is the nhl minimum, but if he gets one assist he will receive his performance bonus of $8 million dollars.
Sounds great! We have a top dman signed for minimum cap hit.
We can go out and sign a couple of free agent power forwards next summer for league minimum too.
As a canucks fan I love it.


Just imagine if Scott Gomez has a clause to which he only get his bonus if he scores, lol :lol:
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#1437 The Bookie

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:56 AM

Apologies if this has been posted here or somewhere else on the boards already, but I found it to be a fascinating read.


Meet the Lockout Lawyers Destroying Sports

Currently the sports world is suffering its fourth lockout in the past fourteen months. On four occasions since August 2011, pro sports owners have locked their publicly subsidized stadium doors, sent stadium workers home and stopped play as usual. This is not coincidence or happenstance. It’s a coordinated management offensive that has reverberations far beyond the playing field. Let’s look at the facts.
Last fall it was NFL and NBA players locked out of their jobs. This off-season, we first had the NFL referees, who make a pittance relative to the league’s revenue, watching scab refs stumble for three weeks. Now we have the ongoing lockout of National Hockey League players. NHL owners are coming off a year in which they made a record $3.3 billion in revenue. League owners have responded to this success by locking out the players, demanding massive concessions, canceling eighty-two games and squandering reservoirs of good will among fans.
I’m sure this must seem like a wild coincidence: four lockouts in fourteen months, affecting three of the four major professional sports leagues of this country. What are the odds? Actually, they’re very good. This is not merely a case of four sets of labor negotiations that have tragically broken down. This is a conscious, industry-wide strategy. A law firm called Proskauer Rose is now representing management in all four major men’s sports leagues, the first time in history one firm has been hired to play such a unified role. In practice, this has meant that in four sets of negotiations with four very different economic issues at play, we get the same results: lockouts and a stack of union complaints with the National Labor Relations Board. It’s been great for owners and awful for players, fans, stadium workers and tax payers.
Proskauer Rose partner Howard Ganz represents the NBA and Major League Baseball, and fellow-partner Bob Batterman has led negotiations for the NFL and the NHL. As Sports Business Daily reported, “Batterman and Ganz provide advice on strategy, as well as on issues that can emerge during talks, such as the legality of using replacement players.”
In other words, they are the people who scuttle collective bargaining and give word when to bring on the scabs. It was the now-infamous Batterman who was lead negotiator when NHL owners locked out the players in 2005 and canceled the entire season. Ian Pulver, counsel for the NHL Players Association in 2005, said of the lawyer, “Bob Batterman is a hard-nosed, smart management attorney who leaves no stone unturned. He will do his best to attempt to execute the orders of his clients including, but not limited to, breaking unions if necessary.” When Batterman was told of Pulver’s words he said, “I would be proud to have that on my epitaph.”
Proskaur Rose’s love affair with corporate power is not confined to representing professional sports owners. They boast on their website of having “one of the world’s pre-eminent private equity practices.” They are Bain, if Bain was smart enough to remain in the shadows. The firm’s other prize clients are a Murderers Row of Big Oil titans including BP America, Chevron, and ExxonMobil. Incidentally, this culture of representing polluters and union busters with pride and without societal concern seems reflected in the firm’s internal culture. Proskauer Rose is now being sued by their former Chief Financial Officer Elly Rosenthal, who accused the law firm of firing her following sixteen years as CFO after she took leave for breast cancer treatment. (Remember Elly Rosenthal the next time you see the NFL festooning its players in pink for Breast Cancer Awareness Month.)
Perhaps it’s time we start viewing sports leagues less like family fun and more along the lines of highly scrutinized institutions such as BP, Chevron, and ExxonMobil. They have more in common than just their lawyers. Like big oil bosses, pro sports owners love corporate welfare, right-wing politicians and are deeply hostile to union workplaces and collective bargaining. Just as what’s good for ExxonMobil’s stock value—price gouging at the pump, lax environmental enforcement, war in the Middle East—is bad for America; what’s good for pro sports owners is bad for fans, stadium workers and especially taxpayers.
Given the context, today’s news that the NHL has hired republican guru of sophistry Frank “let’s call global warming climate change” Luntz to help with their messaging, makes perfect sense. This is a Frank Luntz crowd and its agenda reaches far beyond the world of sports. The number of lockouts, once the third rail of collective bargaining, has doubled since 2010. But you need more than cash reserves to make this the new norm. For management to win a lockout they need to convince the public—and transform the culture—into thinking that lockouts (starving out your workers) is an acceptable practice. No NHL players are starving, of course, but this is about exploiting sports to enforce a new national labor paradigm.
Some might think that a good idea would be to pressure the NBA, NFL and NBA to actually fire the lockout lawyers. They might suggest that we start a campaign to insist that the leagues hire negotiators who put the interests of fans and taxpayers at the center of these negotiations. But even if we could successfully disengage Proskauer Rose from our pro sports leagues, NBA and NHL Commissioners David Stern and Gary Bettman have more in common than just the combined five lockouts they’ve overseen in the past thirteen years. They’re also lawyers who used to be partners at a firm called Proskauer Rose. We are confronting our worst nightmare as sports fans: a vampire squid with a law degree attached to every tentacle.


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#1438 Bodee

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 02:07 AM

Teams still need to work within the confines of a cap, however, there is the option for both the player and the team to offer a performance bonus. But the performance bonus is not a given, it's only received when it's earned based on set terms, and if the NHL believes the team is trying to circumvent the cap through assured performance bonuses they can do an audit and confirm if performance bonus payment = performance as per the performance clause terms ie. did they meet the set target goals, points, etc.


As someone who lives in a country where sport is not run on the same basis I am astounded that either side would "plan for a lock-out"

It strikes me that if there are people who think like that about, lets face it, a sport with millions of fans throughout the World, then they don't deserve to be in it in the first place.

It is high time the fans got themselves organised and either boycott the sport until a binding constitution is put in place which forbids any kind of lockout or they should cold shoulder the goods and services of the owners and the NHL so that they are so severely hit, a lockout becomes a non option.

Fans need to organise themselves into a coherent body, a union almost, which can wield more bargaining and sanctioning power.

If this happened in soccer over here I think the players and owners lives would be made unbearable, especially if greed was seen to play any part of it.

This whole fiasco is upside down. It's the fans who wield the power, they generate the money, the owners are just facilitators and the players are the people who rely on hockey for their livelihood. It's a damn shame hockey fans let themselves be marginalised like this.

Turn to the AHL and stand your ground.
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#1439 WHL rocks

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:14 AM

But that only works if they have the cap space available, and that's what I am trying to get at. Teams could circumvent the cap by colluding with players to give them the pay they want simply by loading the bulk of their pay into easy performance bonuses.

We might as well not have a cap then.


What would a player do. Crosby and Malkin have lost significant time due to injuries. $10 mil guaranteed or $1 mil plus bonuses?
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#1440 woot

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:14 AM

I guess the Republican PR stratagist the NHL owner's hired is already doing his job. Now everyone's talking about how the player's won't take a "fair" 50-50 split of HRR, not that the league decided to lock out the player's after a year of record-setting revenue, and who's "fair" 50-50 offer demands the players give up 15% of their share, and a bunch of other terrifying concessions.

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