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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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#1471 Mauii

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:40 PM

I think you should look up the definition of ignorant if you think it is a nasty attack on someone's character:

IGNORANT: Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular: "ignorant of astronomy".

In this case it was someone being wilfully ignorant. A simple google of a phrase "how much business revenue goes on salaries" would come up with dozens of sites which give ranges which show 40-80% depending on the business type.

If you look at my posts, I make an effort to do a little research and give content when making posts. I think the quality of the threads would be much better served by people taking a few seconds to check into their made up facts before posting.

"wilfully ignorant" again making presumptions about someone's character and intentions...while you may go about life conducting yourself in that manner, it may have not been Heretic's intent to do so nor in his character to do so. Kudos to you for trying to be more thorough but still does not warrant name calling or belittling others.
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#1472 J.R.

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:45 PM

So rather than contribute to the thread you attack my character - why not just disagree and say you're pro players?

I also never said the owners were right - way to jump to conclusions.

The "little" guy is not the players.
The "little" guy is the Zamboni driver, the concession stand worker, the security guards, the maintenance workers, the retail workers, etc...etc....

This game was way better 1995 and older - as I said in a previous post.

The solution is simple - pay for performance.


Speaking of jumping to conclusions :rolleyes: ... no, I'm not pro players.

You all but demanded the players take the deal... a deal which greatly benefits the owners at the players expense. How is that not pro owner?

Edited by J.R., 17 October 2012 - 03:47 PM.

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#1473 Provost

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:54 PM

"wilfully ignorant" again making presumptions about someone's character and intentions...while you may go about life conducting yourself in that manner, it may have not been Heretic's intent to do so nor in his character to do so. Kudos to you for trying to be more thorough but still does not warrant name calling or belittling others.


I make no assumptions at all.

- He made a derogatory post calling out a huge number of people and very harshly judging them
- He based his argument on something that wasn't true.
- I did a little experiment on google to test how easy it would have been for him to actually check to see whether what he was spouting was true or not. It took me less than 10 seconds to come up with the answer. Less than a minute to find and read detailed information on the subject.

Those are objective facts and not assumptions. The evidence shows that he is ignorant. I, and I think most reasonable people, would suggest that if you are spouting off falsehoods that you could have easily clarified with a few seconds effort... that is wilful ignorance.

Edited by Provost, 17 October 2012 - 04:03 PM.

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#1474 Heretic

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:58 PM

Speaking of jumping to conclusions :rolleyes: ... no, I'm not pro players.

You all but demanded the players take the deal... a deal which greatly benefits the owners at the players expense. How is that not pro owner?


Yes - I didn't say they should have taken the first offer - but yes, now I am demanding that they take this one - I want to watch the Canucks - I moved back to BC so now I am in the correct "zone" for Sportsnet Pacific - hated living in Alberta as Sportsnet Pacific was blacked out like 99% of the time for me.

I don't care who benefits between the owners nor the players - if they don't like the deal - then they can go play somewhere else or own a team in a different league. Myself? I won't stop cheering for the Canucks - never ever.
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#1475 J.R.

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:00 PM

Yes - I didn't say they should have taken the first offer - but yes, now I am demanding that they take this one - I want to watch the Canucks - I moved back to BC so now I am in the correct "zone" for Sportsnet Pacific - hated living in Alberta as Sportsnet Pacific was blacked out like 99% of the time for me.

I don't care who benefits between the owners nor the players - if they don't like the deal - then they can go play somewhere else or own a team in a different league. Myself? I won't stop cheering for the Canucks - never ever.


So you want the players to take an unfair deal because it benefits you for them to do so. That's pretty selfish and shortsighted.
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#1476 Heretic

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:06 PM

I make no assumptions at all.

- He made a post name calling a huge number of people and very harshly judging them
- He based his argument on something that wasn't true.
- I did a little experiment on google to test how easy it would have been for him to actually check to see whether what he was spouting was true or not. It took me less than 10 seconds to come up with the answer. Less than a minute to find and read detailed information on the subject.

Those are objective facts and not assumptions. The evidence shows that he is ignorant. I, and I think most reasonable people, would suggest that if you are spouting off falsehoods that you could have easily clarified with a few seconds effort... that is wilful ignorance.


Wrong.

You said I was ignorant about everything in life.

Here...let me quote it again for you:

This shows your complete ignorance of basic facts of life.


Oh...sorry - for the "basic" facts of life.

Here's what I said:


Can you imagine just about any other business splitting their revenue 50/50 with their employees?

Would a company like McDonalds do that?

Right....these players tick me off - I want to see the game like it was played in the 70's, 80's and early 90's...when players cared about the crest on their uniform...where they played for the love of the game.

If they reject this latest offer, then I hope the season is a write off - they don't deserve to play nor be watched and cheered on by us fans.


Tell me where I did "name calling a huge number of people and very harshly judging them"????

That was my opinion - nothing more - didn't say here are the facts of this dispute nor anything like that.

This is a forum about hockey - we are not bunch of scientists arguing about a theory - we're talking about hockey.
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#1477 Heretic

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:10 PM

So you want the players to take an unfair deal because it benefits you for them to do so. That's pretty selfish and shortsighted.


Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

Who says it's unfair? The players? The owners?

You forget the old cliche - there are 3 sides to every story - yours, theirs and the truth.

As far as being selfish and shortsighted - so?
Are you telling me that you are willing to wait for the players to have a "fair" deal?

If yes - then why are you even here on a hockey forum?
Why don't you go watch cricket or something?

If no - then stop judging me.
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#1478 WHL rocks

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:16 PM

So if Luongo is traded and then retires, we have to take the CAP back for those remaining years?

Yes, this is exactly what would happen.

It's sucks being a Canuck supporter but other teams have these contracts as well. This situation should be dealt with and in fairness to teams which followed the spirit of the last CBA, I think this is an excellent idea. The cap should count for the entirety of the contract.
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#1479 J.R.

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:20 PM

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

Who says it's unfair? The players? The owners?

You forget the old cliche - there are 3 sides to every story - yours, theirs and the truth.

As far as being selfish and shortsighted - so?
Are you telling me that you are willing to wait for the players to have a "fair" deal?

If yes - then why are you even here on a hockey forum?
Why don't you go watch cricket or something?

If no - then stop judging me.


:lol:

I think it's unfair as well as a good number of other people far more knowledgeable about this than you or I.

I don't think you should assume what I have or haven't forgotten.

You're certainly entitled to those selfish view. I'm also entitled to point them out when you make them public.

Yes I am willing to wait for hockey for them to agree on a deal that is fair to both sides. I don't LIKE it but I appreciate that my own selfish interests are of smaller concern than an entire industry and leagues.

Because I'm a Canuck/hockey fan and I don't like cricket.

If you don't want your selfish, ignorant and short sighted comments to be scrutinized or judged I suggest you stop posting them on a public forum.
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#1480 The Bookie

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:28 PM

Can you guys take your back and forth bickering to private message or something?
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#1481 Heretic

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:09 PM

:lol:

I think it's unfair as well as a good number of other people far more knowledgeable about this than you or I.

I don't think you should assume what I have or haven't forgotten.

You're certainly entitled to those selfish view. I'm also entitled to point them out when you make them public.

Yes I am willing to wait for hockey for them to agree on a deal that is fair to both sides. I don't LIKE it but I appreciate that my own selfish interests are of smaller concern than an entire industry and leagues.

Because I'm a Canuck/hockey fan and I don't like cricket.

If you don't want your selfish, ignorant and short sighted comments to be scrutinized or judged I suggest you stop posting them on a public forum.


Likewise, there are a good number of other people far more knowledgeable about this than you or I that think the deal is fair enough for now.

As far as selfish (not in general - but as far as what I want now), why are you "entitled" to point out anyone's view?

Good, you admit you'd rather wait - then make like a leaf please - come back when it's over.

Please stop with the personal attacks - that I know you're not "entitled" to.
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#1482 Funky Fatcat

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:36 PM

I'm pro owner. Plain and simple, If the owners don't have the money to buy a team and maintain it, the players don't play in a world renowned league. Sure they can play in the KHL where teams are throwing millions at players just so they'll play there, but honestly when I see tweets from players chirping the owners, it just makes them look like babies.

I have no sympathy for the players in a league that wouldn't exist without the owners.
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#1483 SamJamIam

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:38 PM

Likewise, there are a good number of other people far more knowledgeable about this than you or I that think the deal is fair enough for now.

As far as selfish (not in general - but as far as what I want now), why are you "entitled" to point out anyone's view?

Good, you admit you'd rather wait - then make like a leaf please - come back when it's over.

Please stop with the personal attacks - that I know you're not "entitled" to.


So you are "entitled" to censor what others say about you when you feel it doesn't suit you?

You've got a silly, misguided, ignorant view on the topic. Does that mean you're a silly, misguided, ignorant person? No. No one is attacking you. However your inability to see disagreement as anything other than a personal attack speaks volumes. No one becomes well-informed by being insulted when they're wrong. They make mistakes, learn and their views evolve. That you would rather play the victim than learn from others knowledge simply shows that you both are (and will remain) ignorant on the matter. Until you give up getting all in a tizzy about being wrong, you will, due to your own defensive nature, perpetuate your ignorance. Your choice.

Edited by nateb123, 17 October 2012 - 07:40 PM.

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#1484 samurai

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:48 PM

With the time frame and the NHLPA unimpressed with what the NHL offered you are pretty safe to bet that a 82 game season is not going to happen. The odds favor a bet against it.
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#1485 SamJamIam

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:58 PM

With the time frame and the NHLPA unimpressed with what the NHL offered you are pretty safe to bet that a 82 game season is not going to happen. The odds favor a bet against it.


Good. Networks like NBC will be pissed and they're not dumb enough to believe a lockout is anything but the owners' fault.
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#1486 Heretic

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:30 PM

So you are "entitled" to censor what others say about you when you feel it doesn't suit you?

You've got a silly, misguided, ignorant view on the topic. Does that mean you're a silly, misguided, ignorant person? No. No one is attacking you. However your inability to see disagreement as anything other than a personal attack speaks volumes. No one becomes well-informed by being insulted when they're wrong. They make mistakes, learn and their views evolve. That you would rather play the victim than learn from others knowledge simply shows that you both are (and will remain) ignorant on the matter. Until you give up getting all in a tizzy about being wrong, you will, due to your own defensive nature, perpetuate your ignorance. Your choice.



Really? Is that what you think this is all about? Being right or wrong?

Sorry...that's not it from me.

Maybe you "think" I have a "silly, misguided, ignorant view on the topic" - but I don't.
I've been watching hockey for a long time - does that make me an expert? Nope. But I am not ignorant in the "basic views of life" - now do you get it? I didn't read the entire proposal - doesn't mean I can't have an opinion - and it doesn't mean I am ignorant in everything else. I don't speak German - but I know where it comes from.

But far be it from me to criticize you - obviously you're an expert Psychologist - one that based on a few posts in an internet forum can evaluate people. How long have you been practicing and where did you get your PHD from?

No, I'm not "entitled" to censor what anyone says about me - this isn't my forum - but the rules are clear.

If you look back, I did say, if you disagree, that's fine - just say so.

I do agree with your statement "No one becomes well-informed by being insulted when they're wrong. "

I am all for knowledge - the more the better - but to insult someone while telling them it...well...you said it yourself.
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#1487 StevenStamkos

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:45 PM

Boys, both of you:

Take a step back
Go outside
Get some fresh air

Remember, you are arguing on an internet forum... it is very unlikely someone will change their opinion because you told them it's wrong...

Someone be the bigger man and stop responding so we can get back to the topic at hand.

Edited by StevenStamkos, 17 October 2012 - 09:46 PM.

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#1488 Heretic

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:54 PM

Boys, both of you:

Take a step back
Go outside
Get some fresh air

Remember, you are arguing on an internet forum... it is very unlikely someone will change their opinion because you told them it's wrong...

Someone be the bigger man and stop responding so we can get back to the topic at hand.


Agreed and well said.

Here's an overview of the proposal:


In a move designed to put pressure on the players union and clear up misconceptions regarding its latest proposal, the NHL released its collective bargaining offer Tuesday. It’s called the “NHL Proposal to Save 82-Game Season” and the most striking element, according to the league, is a 50-50 split of hockey-related revenue. NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr said the union needed time to clarify some points Wednesday. The sides meet again Thursday. Here are some highlights and how they compare to the old deal (where applicable):

TERM

Six years, with a mutual option for a seventh

The last contract (four years) was signed in 2005 after the cancellation of the 2004-05 season. It was extended twice for an extra three years. A six-year deal is important to the league, which wants guaranteed labour peace through its centennial season in 2017-18.

ACCOUNTING

This would extend the current method of hockey revenue accounting, subject to “mutual clarifications of existing interpretations and settlements. In other words, look for a big fight as both sides dispute how much money anyone is actually making.

PLAYERS’ SHARE

50 per cent for the life of the deal

Under the old agreement, the players took in 57 per cent of hockey-related revenue. The league was originally demanding a massive cut to 43 per cent, but upped that subsequently, in a descending scale, to 49 in the first year, 48 in the second and 47 through the remaining four years. Players had asked for 54 per cent.

SALARY CAP

The lower limit this season would be $43.9 million, with a $59.9 million cap. There would be a one-year exemption, though, to allow clubs already committed to contracts to go to $70.2 million. Last sason’s cap was $67.3 million.

CAP ACCOUNTING

Player contracts would be limited to e years with no more than a five per cent variance from season to season. As well, the salary of any NHL player in the minors, above $105,000, would count against the big team’s cap. Traded contracts would count against the new team’s cap, but would revert to the original club if the player retires.

SYSTEM CHANGES

Unrestricted free agency would go from age 27 (or seven years of service) to 28 (or eight years).

Entry-level deals would go from three to two years.

Eligibility for salary arbitration would start in a player’s fifth year, up from four. The league wants players to have less leverage when negotiating their second contracts (see Tyler Seguin, Taylor Hall).

A team can retain a portion of an outgoing player’s salary up to $3 million to facilitate trades, with a $5 million maximum total per team. Currently, the acquiring team absorbs the full cap blow.

REVENUE SHARING

Uup $50 million to $200 million this season, $40 million less than the players want. At least 50 per cent would come from the 10 top-grossing teams. Poor teams in rich markets, like the New York Islanders, would be eligible for funds.

DISCIPLINE

A neutral third party would be appointed to hear disciplinary appeals. There is no current process.

NO SALARY ROLLBACKS

All current contracts would be honoured, regardless of length or salary, but . . .

“MAKE WHOLE” PROVISION

The league would guarantee (or “make whole”) current, cap-busting contracts for the next two years, but would take the money to cover those deals out of the players’ share three years hence. Players would be partially paying for today’s big contracts down the line. More than 50 of the league’s biggest deals run for five years or longer.

Source:

http://www.thestar.c...age-full-season
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#1489 Lui's Knob

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 11:14 PM

Tsn aaron ward suggests there definitely won't be hockey nov 2 and doubtful for December. When reda asked if there would be any hockey, he paused and deferred.

Joke joke joke! Players appear quite short sided. Why don't guys like linden and modano and hurting speak up and look at what they are doing to the game and themselves

Edited by Here's Johnny, 17 October 2012 - 11:15 PM.

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#1490 The Bookie

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 01:42 AM

If the players want to avoid the PR backlash of rejecting the deal, they should agree to everything except a 6year new CBA. Make it 5.
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#1491 Alex Edler 23

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 07:31 AM

Lp
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Sig too big.

#1492 Dirt Nasty

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:02 AM

They should make the new CBA contract 20+ years in length, otherwise in the next 6 years we are going to be going through the same damn thing, a lockout. Either that or 3 years into the new CBA have the members of the NHL and NHLPA sit down and discuss what is working, and what is not. 3 years of dicussion should be more then long enough to come up with a new CBA and ensure the players and fans don't go through another lockout, and not leave it until the summer when the CBA expires again...
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#1493 The Big Luongo

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:28 AM

This whole lockout is all on the greedy players.

One thing is i definitely didn't like Jonathan Toews whiny, arrogant, spoiled attitude before this lockout but after hearing his big mouth and bitter attitude while he already has enough money to live rich the rest of his life i can't stand the guy!

One thing that becomes very clear to me in all this is that there is a lot of spoiled brat hockey players that don't have a clue of what the real world is from their pedestals.

The players attitude is sickening.
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#1494 gizmo2337

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 09:30 AM

Owners of Calgary, Washington, Boston, and Minny in attendance today.


Bob McKenzie@TSNBobMcKenzie

I'm no labor expert but my experiences suggest there's direct correlation between how many people in room and how much is NOT accomplished.

Edited by gizmo2337, 18 October 2012 - 09:35 AM.

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#1495 coastal1

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 09:44 AM

If the players want to avoid the PR backlash of rejecting the deal, they should agree to everything except a 6year new CBA. Make it 5.

As if that mattered to the players!
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#1496 Boudrias

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 09:49 AM

This whole lockout is all on the greedy players.

One thing is i definitely didn't like Jonathan Toews whiny, arrogant, spoiled attitude before this lockout but after hearing his big mouth and bitter attitude while he already has enough money to live rich the rest of his life i can't stand the guy!

One thing that becomes very clear to me in all this is that there is a lot of spoiled brat hockey players that don't have a clue of what the real world is from their pedestals.

The players attitude is sickening.

I am getting tired of pointing out the idea that the NHL actually has a business plan and appear to be sticking to it. Many on here cannot get past the idea of a one on one confrontation over who has the gonads to carry through a drag out fight.

Anyone who has spent any time around hockey players realize that the drive that serves them well on the ice does not necessarily translate into the business environment. Elite hockey players are catered to from an early age. It is all about providing them with all they need to be a success on the ice. Carry that through a major junior career into the pro ranks and in many cases you end up with a relatively naive individual in many areas of life. The laughable hatred expressed here for Bettman is an extension of the same thought process. What do you mean I can't have that candy bar? This caption doesn't extend to all players but I fear it does for the majority.

Ownership has its share of the same egos I am sure. However I have never seen a successful businessman who has not either developed skills to manage his business or hired the skills he needs. Businessmen usually have a business plan with well defined objectives. The NHL's goals have appeared obvious to me and on the whole Bettman has done a good job of achieving them.
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#1497 Nevlach

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:03 AM

This whole lockout is all on the greedy players.

One thing is i definitely didn't like Jonathan Toews whiny, arrogant, spoiled attitude before this lockout but after hearing his big mouth and bitter attitude while he already has enough money to live rich the rest of his life i can't stand the guy!

One thing that becomes very clear to me in all this is that there is a lot of spoiled brat hockey players that don't have a clue of what the real world is from their pedestals.

The players attitude is sickening.

I remember meeting someone close to Toews (who I won't mention) during the 2011 playoffs and she said she was hoping for Vancouver but Toews had become spoiled and arrogant after his first few seasons in the NHL. Needed to be humbled.

Unfortunately he still seems that way.
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#1498 J.R.

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:43 AM

Likewise, there are a good number of other people far more knowledgeable about this than you or I that think the deal is fair enough for now.

As far as selfish (not in general - but as far as what I want now), why are you "entitled" to point out anyone's view?

Good, you admit you'd rather wait - then make like a leaf please - come back when it's over.

Please stop with the personal attacks - that I know you're not "entitled" to.


I haven't personally attacked you once. I've argued your ideas and comments are selfish and short sighted, not you. Attack the idea, not the user. If you feel otherwise, you know where the report button is rather than littering the board with whiny, baseless remarks.

Back on topic... anybody heard when we hear the PA's response/counter offer?
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#1499 Nevlach

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:45 AM

I haven't personally attacked you once. I've argued your ideas and comments are selfish and short sighted, not you. Attack the idea, not the user. If you feel otherwise, you know where the report button is rather than littering the board with whiny, baseless remarks.

Back on topic... anybody heard when we hear the PA's response/counter offer?

It's gotten pushed back an hour....
hopefully by 11:30
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#1500 grandmaster

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:46 AM

That last offer by the owners seems most fair. Players should agree to this
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