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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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#2521 Drybone

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 07:06 PM

You know, the funny thing about your pro-owner stance is that when actually pressed on what you think the PA should offer, you're clearly on their side as far as what you think is reasonable. I agree; the PA should either allow their share to drop down to 50% as soon as is possible while honouring contracts, or they should give up max contract lengths and time until free agency. Either or is perfectly reasonable (although I suspect the PA will choose a loss of HRR share every time, rather than member rights). But the owners are asking for both. 50/50 plus "make whole" which actually means less than 50% for players and slashed member rights. What you just described is actually more pro-players than the PA's stance has been for months. They are willing to take a pay cut and their only demand is that revenue sharing increase so the teams don't feel the need to screw players over next CBA and so PA members won't lose jobs through teams shutting down. That deal would mean more money to the owners than even you suggested. I think you should read my post above.


Then I am now in disagreement with the owner. I still stand behind the fact the owners have all the power. Its just a fact. Doesnt mean I want the players to fail. Far from it.

I want there to be an agreement. Keeping the cap the same and just waiting until it is 50% is just another way of saying 50% in three years with normal revenue increases.

I have been writing this ever since this thread opened. It made the most common sense. The owners KNOW they have all the power..........which is again what I have stated all along, and thats why they are pressing for UNREASONABLE demands.

The owners know they can and there is nothing that Fehr can do about it.

And again, the players bring in a hired gun from the outside (baseball) and think this guy is going to push around the owners has done nothing but PISS the owners off.

I have started a small business from scratch. Those who have know exactly about all the blood sweat and tears it requires. Day after day, week after week. Year after year.

We tend to get royally PISSED off when some guy comes in from the outside to tell us how to run our own business we have been running for about 100 years.

I think when we sit back and see this from this perspective, we can see the owners are at this point willing to either get a lopsided deal or screw the players even more. They are royally pissed off . I dont think the average fan understands this. The owners who dont make any money are losing nothing, and the block of owners who are losing money by the lock out have so much they are prepared to wait .

The union bringing Fehr into the picture was a gamble that looked good on paper but did not pan out well at all in practice. Fehr is now backed into this..........lets bring our complaining into the media to get the fans against the owners.............routine.

Now the players are at a stage where they are prepared to be fair. I think with a few more concessions about free agency and waiver and contract length the NHLPA offer is fair.

They should have made this offer 3 months ago instead of bringing on a hired gun.

Edit:

Fehr was brought on at the end of 2010 not three months ago. I did not articulate that properly.

Regardless, the time for the union to be 'fair' was 3 months ago, not after all this revenue has been lost already .

Edited by Drybone, 11 November 2012 - 06:33 PM.

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#2522 poetica

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 08:48 PM

http://www.startribu...s/57299562.html

....

Yesterday just started on bad footing when the league and union were supposed to meet at 10 a.m. The union kept the league waiting until 4 p.m., something the Fehrs have done a handful of times throughout this lockout.


Interesting.

On the same page he also says,

As for pensions, NHL and NHLPA lawyers met for much of the day on that issue, but the league was left waiting for the Fehr Bros. and a handful of players until 4 p.m. ET after originally expecting to meet at 10 a.m.


So, if I understand correctly, that means there were 2 separate meetings that lasted "for much of the day." Being that Fehr's memo to players said, "Today, we met with the NHL off and on over several hours." it would seem the same people, at least on the union's side, were in on both meetings. That should mean that the NHL committee would have absolutely known where the union people were and why they weren't at the second meeting - because they were still at the first, also with the NHL. So, making it sound like Fehr and company were just being jerks who kept the NHL committee waiting for gamesmanship seems disingenuous if not outright dishonest.

That is exactly the kind of PR crap that both sides need to stop trying to pull.
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Thanks for the memories, Luo! :'(

#2523 Canuck or Die

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:30 PM

Jesus! Just work out a damn deal already! This is so ridiculous.
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#2524 Erik Karlsson

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:54 PM

Jesus! Just work out a damn deal already! This is so ridiculous.


I know, it's a joke.
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Credit to -Vintage Canuck-


#2525 SamJamIam

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 11:08 PM

@Drybone

Fehr has been making that offer for 3 months. When negotiations started with "We'll give you a billion dollars", Fehr was clearly not the unreasonable man the NHL made him out to be. It's received a few minimal tweaks but overall, the deal has changed very little in structure and in regard to numbers.

Moreover, I do know what happens when you try to tell an owner how to run their business. I got fired for it. However since I was the guy bringing in much of the business and had a much stronger long term vision, I started a new firm and quickly took over most of his accounts. He doesn't work in the industry anymore. Good businessmen know when to listen to the suggestions and protests from others. The bad ones think they always know best. They throw a fit, alienate people who ultimately want the business to succeed and eventually file for bankruptcy.

Edited by nateb123, 10 November 2012 - 11:12 PM.

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#2526 canuckelhead70

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:59 AM

Interesting.

On the same page he also says,



So, if I understand correctly, that means there were 2 separate meetings that lasted "for much of the day." Being that Fehr's memo to players said, "Today, we met with the NHL off and on over several hours." it would seem the same people, at least on the union's side, were in on both meetings. That should mean that the NHL committee would have absolutely known where the union people were and why they weren't at the second meeting - because they were still at the first, also with the NHL. So, making it sound like Fehr and company were just being jerks who kept the NHL committee waiting for gamesmanship seems disingenuous if not outright dishonest.

That is exactly the kind of PR crap that both sides need to stop trying to pull.


If the second meeting was scheduled to start at 10 am, then what time was the first meeting suppost to take place or start? I highly doubt these clowns woke up at 5 am for a 6 am meeting broke off at 7 am, went and woke up the players and were talking to then until 4 pm, then decided to meet with the NHL. Maybe it's just me but the timeline just doesn't add up. You are all about sources so let's get a source for the times of these 2 meetings then we can decide if the PA stuck it to the NHL.

What we do know is the NHL and PA did not meet between 10 am and 4 pm. You would think after being 3 hours late for a meeting and that you are unsure when you are going to make that meeting that someone would have called and mentioned to the NHL that things were running late on the PA side. If the PA did not give the NHL any kind of timeline as to when they were actually going to show up and talk then yes Fehr looks like a jerk. I'd say the same thing if the rolls were reversered from the owners.
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#2527 Shift-4

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:42 AM

Lp
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#2528 Mr.Habitat

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:43 AM

Mobile
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#2529 poetica

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:20 AM

If the second meeting was scheduled to start at 10 am, then what time was the first meeting suppost to take place or start? I highly doubt these clowns woke up at 5 am for a 6 am meeting broke off at 7 am, went and woke up the players and were talking to then until 4 pm, then decided to meet with the NHL. Maybe it's just me but the timeline just doesn't add up. You are all about sources so let's get a source for the times of these 2 meetings then we can decide if the PA stuck it to the NHL.

What we do know is the NHL and PA did not meet between 10 am and 4 pm. You would think after being 3 hours late for a meeting and that you are unsure when you are going to make that meeting that someone would have called and mentioned to the NHL that things were running late on the PA side. If the PA did not give the NHL any kind of timeline as to when they were actually going to show up and talk then yes Fehr looks like a jerk. I'd say the same thing if the rolls were reversered from the owners.


I agree, the timeline according to some sources seems a bit off to me as well. I was just going off what the source provided said. But frankly, it seems like the information is being skewed according to which side is reporting it.

I'm not sure what source you found that said they did not meet between 10am and 4pm but I found many sources that clearly reference multiple meetings, including a morning meeting. For example,

But on Friday, Day 55 of the lockout, the NHL and union for some reason spent their morning session discussing player pensions, which are important but not the issue that is keeping hockey off the ice. The same goes for revenue sharing, which ate up time in Wednesday’s meeting.

Source: http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.1199867

At 11:35am, I assume EST.

Working group meeting on pension issues right now between NHL/NHLPA

Source: https://twitter.com/...987371885654017

(I have no idea what "working group" means, but I can't imagine the top brass of the union wouldn't be involved in discussing something as important as pensions.)

To further complicate matters, I found several other sources saying that there were actually 3 meetings, which would seem to support Fehr's statement that they were meeting "off and on":

Total meeting -- three sets -- including pension issues; calendar issues and core economics went for about 4.5 hrs total — Michael Grange (@michaelgrange) November 9, 2012 #CBA Fehr said PA has "things to consider" but wouldn't say much beyond that. Sounds like league and union swapped more ideas…

Source: http://kuklaskorner....a6b8c4f81d77aaf

No new official offers were exchanged Friday, but there was give and take during discussions throughout the day. The last of three sessions centered on the core economic issues keeping the sides apart, and it broke up after about two hours.

Source: http://www.thescore....day-of-meetings

#CBA Three meetings today covered 1) Critical dates/schedules/calendar items 2) Players' pensions and 3) core economic issues

Source: https://twitter.com/...041143378825216

So it would seem entirely false to say that the union did not meeting with the NHL until 4pm. Frankly, it feels to me like an outright attempt to discredit Fehr, especially when it's coupled with the obvious attempt to fracture the union by accusing Fehr of not fully disclosing the NHL's proposal (despite the fact that several players were present and fully apprised of the deal and all of the committee was available to any players with questions).

This is exactly the kind of dishonest PR mongering I was hoping both sides had moved beyond in favor of actual negotiation.

Edited by poetica, 11 November 2012 - 11:25 AM.

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#2530 gizmo2337

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:12 PM

“We talked back and forth a little bit, and at one point the question was asked: `If the players would agree to everything that's in your financial proposal, what you're saying is you still won't make an agreement unless the players give up everything in all of the player-contracting rights in your proposal? The answer was, `Yes, because that's what we want,“’ Donald Fehr said. “One wonders if that's really the case. How do you get there from here?


This pretty much says all you need to know about if there will be hockey this year. This could actually go into next season as well.

End the lockout, begin the strike!
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#2531 poetica

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:24 PM

This pretty much says all you need to know about if there will be hockey this year. This could actually go into next season as well.

End the lockout, begin the strike!


Unfortunately, you might be right. (Of course, the NHL says that statement isn't true, that they are still willing to put everything on the table. Who knows who can be believed at this point?)

If both sides put all of the effort they seem to waste on mudslinging into actually negotiating, they'd already have a deal.
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#2532 VancouverCanucksRock

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:35 PM

Hey NHL/players, today is Remembrance Day. Does it put anything in perspective for you ungreatful, greedy fks? Of coruse not, carry on arguing about your extra millions
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#2533 DeNiro

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 02:03 PM

Here's a detailed article of the situation as it stands now. It's long, but worth the read.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409277

They make a good point in the article. That the longer this thing goes on, the more they're hurting the NHL brand, and therefore lowering HRR. So basically, every day they fight, they're fighting over a smaller and smaller amount. But I'm not sure if the NHL even considers that. They seem to think that NHL fans will always come crawling back, and that their brand is bulletproof.

They're in for a big surprise when HRR ends up being much smaller than they predicted. Fans are fed up.
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#2534 canuckelhead70

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:05 PM

I'm starting to think they should move these secret private talks to PHX when they decide to get back together again. No one watches hockey when it's on out their, let alone if they even know that there is a work stoppage right now. No one out their is going to know who any of these guys are, that way d-bag Bettmen won't be able to ask, how did you find us?

In any case it's time for both the NHL and PA to realise growth is not going to be 5% or 7% in any of the first few years when a new CBA is set. I don't understand why they think people are not losing jobs in hockey markets and working for less pay with monthly bills increasing. Times are changing for people, not everyone makes a min salary of $425 000 a year.
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#2535 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:18 PM

NHL, players' union meet for 90 minutes on Sunday:

NEW YORK — NHL owners and players were back at the bargaining table after a one-day break.


The sides met for about 90 minutes Sunday at the NHL office in Manhattan in an effort to end the lockout that is in its 57th day. There are no plans yet to meet again.


Talks took place for four straight days earlier this week before heated discussions ended the run Friday night. The decision to formally meet again came Sunday morning.


A few hours into Friday's session, negotiations soured over the core economic differences that separate the sides and threaten the season completely.


The lockout already has caused the NHL to call off 327 regular-season games, including the New Year's Day Winter Classic. A lockout wiped out the entire 2004-05 season.


http://www.theprovin...r#axzz2BsXQB1Dc
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#2536 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:35 PM

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#2537 poetica

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:47 PM

Now there's a jersey I wouldn't have trouble deciding who's name I want on it! :lol:
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Every single one of them.

Thanks for the memories, Luo! :'(

#2538 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:09 PM

Theo Fleury: I have no sympathy for owners:

TORONTO -- Former star winger Theo Fleury didn’t hold back when asked about the NHL lockout.


He’s still a player at heart, even though he’s not like today’s player.


"The game has changed," Fleury said Sunday at the HHOF Legends game at Air Canada Centre. "There’s a lot more money on the table. I think the players are a lot more business-orientated than we ever were. I was the guy that always said, 'Drop the puck, let’s play hockey.' But here’s how I see it: I do a lot of events all across Canada and I run into guys like Gordie Howe and Johnny Bower, who are still doing events. And I say, 'Why are you guys here?' They need to be there to make money. So I have no sympathy for the owners because of that. Because those are the icons of the game, the guys that I looked up to and wanted to emulate myself after. I’m fully behind the players and what they’re trying to accomplish."


Gary Roberts, a former teammate of Fleury’s in Calgary, now runs a successful business in the Toronto area as a high-end trainer for NHLers and young prospects. He’s working with 60-goal man Steven Stamkos right now during the lockout.


"I’m involved with current players that I train, they’re not different than us years ago, they want to play," said Roberts. "It’s discouraging for sure for hockey fans. I’m a hockey fan. I want to see hockey being played. Hopefully, they can find a happy medium and all get back to work and move on."


The lockout didn’t damper Sunday’s Legends game where the Air Canada Centre was buzzing to see former stars on the ice.


"It’s a great celebration of our game," said Fleury. "I honestly believe that I played in the greatest era of superstars and great hockey players and great people. So to be asked to be here to be part of it is a great thrill. It’s nice to see people who appreciated the way we played the game."


Lockout irony hits Sundin


An NHL lockout in 1994-95 made Mats Sundin wait six-plus months after his June 1994 trade before finally making his Toronto Maple Leafs debut in January 1995.


That his Hockey Hall of Fame induction weekend is book-ended by another lockout isn’t lost on him in terms of being ironic.


"It is, yes," Sundin said Sunday at Air Canada Centre. "But you know what, you can’t control those things. Everyone wants the season to start, myself included as a hockey fan. But we’re having a good time this weekend anyway. We had the fan forum today. To sit there with guys like Joe Sakic, Pavel Bure and Adam Oates, it’s very humbling. To be recognized with all the great players in the Hall, it’s really tough to take in, actually."


And for Sundin, it’s doubly special, with the home fans here in Toronto here to cheer him on.


"The Toronto Maple Leafs is the team in my heart," said Sundin. "I’m very grateful to have been part of this team. ...


"It’s very special. When I landed at the airport, I had dinner with friends and old teammates. ... Even though we live in Sweden now, every time I come here I feel like I’m coming home."


Sundin was a guarded player during his playing career, rarely showing any emotion. How he handles his speech Monday night will be intriguing.


"It’s going to be very short," he said.


http://espn.go.com/b...athy-for-owners
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#2539 gmen81

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:18 PM

--
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#2540 Trelane42

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:20 PM

Getting mighty tired of this BS

If they don’t pull this out in the next week to 10 days the players will look like tools. Even now, I’d guess a good many of them--as in all the non stars--are privately regretting bitterly the hiring of Fehr. In time they’ll look back and see it as the day they guaranteed themselves a locked out season.

Owners making, breaking even, and losing money is thought to be about 1/3 per group. Meaning, 2/3 of owners do not suffer at all in a prolonged lockout. Assuming their books are cooked there is still probably around ½ who are not desperate enough for the season to begin.

100% of players will lose money and since the average career is 3 years many will be out of a full third of substantial income; figures they will never again see in their working lives. THEY CAN’T MATCH THE OTHER SIDE’S LEVERAGE.

If they are at a 50-50 split and at least within small change of honoring existing contracts, dragging this thing on is pretty selfish on the part of some dozens of players so affected. Again, when they get older they’ll realize just how silly it was to lose so much; even for the not insubstantial pleasure of telling Gary where to get off.
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#2541 VancouverCanucksRock

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:46 PM

I'd like to see a Fictional thriller movie made where Fehr and Bettman are brutally murdered. Would be a wonderful film

Edited by VancouverCanucksRock, 11 November 2012 - 05:46 PM.

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#2542 Drybone

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:20 PM

@Drybone

Fehr has been making that offer for 3 months. When negotiations started with "We'll give you a billion dollars", Fehr was clearly not the unreasonable man the NHL made him out to be. It's received a few minimal tweaks but overall, the deal has changed very little in structure and in regard to numbers.

Moreover, I do know what happens when you try to tell an owner how to run their business. I got fired for it. However since I was the guy bringing in much of the business and had a much stronger long term vision, I started a new firm and quickly took over most of his accounts. He doesn't work in the industry anymore. Good businessmen know when to listen to the suggestions and protests from others. The bad ones think they always know best. They throw a fit, alienate people who ultimately want the business to succeed and eventually file for bankruptcy.


You are fired an he is out of business. lol

That is nowhere near the same thing as starting a small business from scratch and understanding it from experience. Its not even close. Let alone being a successful multi millionaire businessman who has been running various companies for 10,20,30 and in some cases 50 years.

I dont presume to know what multi billion dollar owners of NHL teams know. Thats way above my paygrade.

And if they do not need my advice, they certainly dont need your advice that they 'need' to listen to others to be a success.Ever dawn on you they have already been doing this long before you were ever born?

Anyways, as many will have seen today, Fehr is getting NOWHERE and its because the union has no power and the owners are so pissed off they are prepared to wait as long as it takes.

And as many of you know, the union is backed into a 'fair deal' and thats all they can HOPE to get at this point. Its all downhill from here. Fehr is going to get the players SCREWED.

Edited by Drybone, 11 November 2012 - 07:35 PM.

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#2543 gizmo2337

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:26 PM

Here's a detailed article of the situation as it stands now. It's long, but worth the read.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409277

They make a good point in the article. That the longer this thing goes on, the more they're hurting the NHL brand, and therefore lowering HRR. So basically, every day they fight, they're fighting over a smaller and smaller amount. But I'm not sure if the NHL even considers that. They seem to think that NHL fans will always come crawling back, and that their brand is bulletproof.

They're in for a big surprise when HRR ends up being much smaller than they predicted. Fans are fed up.


Yeah, it is a good article for sure. One interesting point about eliminating the second contract home-run scenario doesn't take away from the players share. It just re-distributes it, mostly to the third contract and senior veterans.

I see nothing wrong with this from players perspective. Why should players like Taylor Hall be allowed to sign for that long and amount? He hasn't really proved much in the NHL. End result waters down the revenue pool to the veterans who actually earned it.
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#2544 WHL rocks

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:53 PM

Who cares most about this? TSN, SPSN, TEAM 1040 and your local sports reporters. Fans, particularly in the US will not rush back to the game.

The NHL and Players will take a substantial hit due to this lockout. It will take some time for revenues to get to last year's levels. It took a steroid fueled HR race for MLB to recover. I believe it will be harder for NHL.
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#2545 The Bookie

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:01 PM

Should anyone be interested, here's a list of NHL owners on wikipedia. Very few of them started from scratch; most were born into money.

http://en.wikipedia....y_League_owners

I also don't presume to know what billionaire's know, but I do know that any business owner should make it a priority to stay in tune with his /her customers. I have seen little evidence of that in these negotiations.

Drybone, honestly, you seem to know a lot and I appreciate having someone like you around as it makes it easier to see things from the other side, but could you try to be a little less condescending and arrogant?
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#2546 SamJamIam

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:52 PM

I dont presume to know what multi billion dollar owners of NHL teams know. Thats way above my paygrade.

And if they do not need my advice, they certainly dont need your advice that they 'need' to listen to others to be a success.Ever dawn on you they have already been doing this long before you were ever born?


I suspect you give too much credit to people based on how much is in their bank accounts. If the owners were the genius businessmen you think they are, they wouldn't own teams that are losing money. I'm not saying the teams are losing money solely because of the owners, but if the owners were truly just in it for the money, then they would have put their money into a smarter investment than a borderline NHL team. Rich or not, some people just get suckered. I used to sell watches for 5 or 6 figures and I saw it plenty. Some were works of art and (arguably) worth the money, others were practically scams and often the latter outsold the former.
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#2547 gmen81

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:16 PM

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#2548 gizmo2337

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:52 PM

The NHL has decided to become a non-profit organization, does this mean they have to pay taxes? The IRS and Revenue Canada are going to be angry. What's the potential tax on 3 billion?



Count Bettman@CountBettman

If the players don't accept our latest Make Whole offer they will receive an alternative offer..its called the Make Whole season disappear

Edited by gizmo2337, 11 November 2012 - 10:09 PM.

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#2549 elvis15

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:27 PM

Should anyone be interested, here's a list of NHL owners on wikipedia. Very few of them started from scratch; most were born into money.

http://en.wikipedia....y_League_owners

I also don't presume to know what billionaire's know, but I do know that any business owner should make it a priority to stay in tune with his /her customers. I have seen little evidence of that in these negotiations.

Drybone, honestly, you seem to know a lot and I appreciate having someone like you around as it makes it easier to see things from the other side, but could you try to be a little less condescending and arrogant?

Nate touches on it below as well, but my thought was even the owners that weren't born into money certainly didn't make their fortunes owning hockey teams. Sports teams are altogether a different business from the standard capitalist model, where it's not about making more money than anyone else. If you try and drive the competition into the ground financially, then you're left with no one to play. Kinda hard to make money in a one team league, where most businesses would prefer a monopoly if they can get it.

I suspect you give too much credit to people based on how much is in their bank accounts. If the owners were the genius businessmen you think they are, they wouldn't own teams that are losing money. I'm not saying the teams are losing money solely because of the owners, but if the owners were truly just in it for the money, then they would have put their money into a smarter investment than a borderline NHL team. Rich or not, some people just get suckered. I used to sell watches for 5 or 6 figures and I saw it plenty. Some were works of art and (arguably) worth the money, others were practically scams and often the latter outsold the former.

Pretty much this. You wouldn't see Jamieson trying to buy the Coyotes with the intent to keep them in Arizona if he was concerned with his profit margins. Obviously he doesn't want to lose money, but he must know there's no way he has the financial success of the top 5 teams in the league.

That's not a smart business move, it's about being able to say you own a major sports franchise and hope you don't lose money.
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Tanev is going to EDM. I can put my life savings down on it

 


#2550 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:01 AM

http://www.sportsnet...pa_talks_nov11/

Grange has done a great job covering it.


Basicly what I got out of this is that these are the main points that have been developing over the past week are:

- The owners are getting closer to what the players want with the "Make Whole" provision, and we are making progress there. As Grange says there is still about 150 Million Dollars seperating the two sides.

- Owner's don't seem to be willing to budge on contracting rights.

- Who is gunna cover the losses for this Lockout with the lose of revenue.


For that last one I defeneitly think the Owner's should, it's there Lockout, and they haven't really been bargaining seriously since Early/Mid October.

And the other two I guess are just where we are stuck, although I think if the make whole provision is sorted out, and the losses are sorted out, then the contracting rights won't be a huge issue.


I guess we still have a ways to go :(

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 12 November 2012 - 12:02 AM.

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