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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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#2611 Rey

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:31 AM

Global news interviewed larionov who's in town and he let slip that he spoke with both union and Colin Campbell and felt the 2 sides would be wrapping up a CBA soon... Gretzky also chimed in again and felt by next month well have a CBA signed.... Are we close or not close???


I think the set date is Dec 1. There's still plenty of time to play cat and mouse. Both parties want the best deal they can get, but from the players speaking out in the last couple days, it seems like the players are ready to get this over with.

Edited by Rey, 14 November 2012 - 12:31 AM.

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#2612 Drybone

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:34 AM

Drybone, let's pretend you aren't just talking out of your posterior for a minute and give you a chance to prove your frequent assertions. You keep saying Fehr is the problem and without him players would get more and owners would be demanding less. Where is a single piece of proof? They didn't have him last time and lost in almost every regard. What proof do you have that he is in any way damaging anything? And what proof do you have that Fehr is more damaging than Bettman, who is often openly antagonistic? What proof do you have to support your silly assertion that owners wouldn't be demanding so much if only it weren't for their overriding dislike of Fehr?

And your hockey player turned lawyer turned owner lover ("to walk in their shoes") turned union rep idea is laughable. Remind me again, how many owners were players first and understand their perspective? How many owners were GMs first and truly understand how to run a team? How many owners actually run the team like a regular business (which is their only area of expertise but completely irrelevant if they aren't using those skills)? And what prior hockey experience did Bettman have? If you think players should have a homegrown union rep, shouldn't the NHL itself be led by someone with a lifelong relationship with the sport?

I look forward to seeing if you have any actual facts to back up the crap you keep saying instead of just relying on more of your own opinions as your only "proof."


Your post rambles and unfornutately does not add anything of value.You spend too much time insisting that Ido something to help your understanding. I would advise you read it again and I am sure it will come to yourself.

I feel sorry for those who still believe the NHLPA are somehow going to win. I pity you.

They have no power. Anyone who thinks they do is deluded. . Hiring Fehr has hurt the Union.

We shall see how far he will go to make a deal. I can assure you the owners dont have to make any deal.
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#2613 Tangerines

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:39 AM

Global news interviewed larionov who's in town and he let slip that he spoke with both union and Colin Campbell and felt the 2 sides would be wrapping up a CBA soon... Gretzky also chimed in again and felt by next month well have a CBA signed.... Are we close or not close???


We're close baby. When the best player the game has ever seen says its going to happen soon we should listen :) . I also agree with deniro and others when they say the league is holding out to save certain markets some money. Also found this quote in the Vancouver province:

VANCOUVER PROVINCE: NHLPA special counsel Steve Fehr said he and NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly agree that “when the moment is right the deal could be done very quickly”, suggesting it could be completed in only a matter of days. Daly response to Fehr? “I hope he’s right”.

When the moment is right? Does this mean a deal is pretty much in place and they are just waiting for the right time to announce it? I think they are closer than we think. Or maybe I'm just being overly optimistic..
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#2614 RunningWild

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:45 AM

Might be a repeat article, but it's well worth the read: http://m.nypost.com/...afgPLGAnT5fPrJN

Unsurprisingly, anything Bruins related turns to trash.
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#2615 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:31 AM

I think I'm in denial... every time I hear that both sides are talking, I get excited. I think that they're grown men and naturally they would be able to resolve this like adults.... but then nothing happens.

I want hockey for christmas.
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Credit to -Vintage Canuck-


#2616 Boudrias

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:29 AM

League stooge? Hyperbole? You are reduced to personal insults now? In other words the NHLPA argument has failed.

It it is utterly irrelevant what you think . Just as it doesnt matter what I think or what my personal feelings are. Just so you know, I would prefer they get on with a contract so we can get on with the season.

It is irrelevant to you or what the terms are. Neither of us will ever have anything to do with how they split it up . Just as we will never hoist the Stanley Cup nor ever play in the NHL or have anything to do with the Canucks other than just be fans.

However, I have come to discuss the facts from a dispassionate point of view of the real world. And those facts are exactly as I have laid them out. I am not sugar coating this for anyone.

League has all power, NHLPA has none.

Again, it is irrelevant what you WANT TO BELIEVE. Its what the actual reality is. Anyone who believes the NHLPA has any power at this point must be deluded i. Its so obvious they dont.

I have been telling you all along . I am sorry you dont want to believe it. However, I'm not going to sink to throwing personal insults at you. If you are still holding a vigil for the NHLPA to somehow 'win' , I feel sorry for you.

If you don't tow the 'party line' around here you obviously are a ownership stooge. Methinks the debate on here is what it is all about rather than your dose of realism. When you study the history of the NHLPA it becomes clear that it is the NHL that has had clearer objectives than the union. Eagleson, Goodenow, Saskin and Fehr hardly 1st stringers. While the name escapes me the fellow that interests me the most is Fehr's predecessor. His approach was more collegial and non-confrontational. His preferred approach was unique to previous union leadership and possibly had the most potential. The risk in this approach is as I am sure will be pointed out that the players might not get the best deal. My question would be what have they gained over the past 3 negociations? The collegial approach required the NHLPA become integral partners with ownership. A relationship that transcends the Bettman and Daley roles. It is not a labour vs management relationship it is businessmen with businessmen. I cannot comprehend otherwise as NHL players and ownership are both in this for the money and not for the fans. Anyone who thinks otherwise is dreaming.

As these two groups fight over a $3.3 billion pie it should be obvious to both that a smarter solution would be increasing the size of the pie. If the NHL is to aspire to be something more than a 2nd tier sports franchise then they had better get it together.

- the NHL has a cost advantage over the NFL, MLB and NBA. A ESPN contract or expanded NBC contract is possible.
- the NHL incurs costs even with a lockout.
- it is cheaper for the NHL to continue a lockout than it is for the players. IMO that is why a confrontational approach is a losing proposition for the NHLPA.
- it is not all strength for the NHL as a lost season depreciates the value of their existing player contracts. Just as a player never recovers his lost season neither does his club. All teams have development timelines and for those like Van who are CUP contenders a lockout is deadly for their CUP aspirations.
- the longer a dispute lasts the more stressed the NHL's partners become; media markets, staff, vendor partners, venue partners.
- Fans: I don't think the players give a hoot what the fans think no matter what Crosby says. The NHL might worry about lost revenue in some cities but the reality is the $ sign over each fans head.

It is a simply dollar calculation of cost vs benefit. When those numbers line up the NHL will settle. I am not sure how much emotionalism drives the NHLPA. I hope they have good number crunchers as well. I have doubts about that as they would not have got themselves in this position if they had. When Eric Lindros was one of the key guys responsible for getting Fehr hired it makes me wonder.
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#2617 poetica

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:24 AM

Your post rambles and unfornutately does not add anything of value.You spend too much time insisting that Ido something to help your understanding. I would advise you read it again and I am sure it will come to yourself.

I feel sorry for those who still believe the NHLPA are somehow going to win. I pity you.

They have no power. Anyone who thinks they do is deluded. . Hiring Fehr has hurt the Union.

We shall see how far he will go to make a deal. I can assure you the owners dont have to make any deal.


So that would be a big fat "no" to having a single shred of proof to back up your many assertions then.

How sad that you find direct questions to be "rambling." Or is that simply a convenient excuse to avoid answering a single one of them?

And yes, I expected you "help me understand" your point. It's called participating in a discussion. This is a discussion forum, after all. It's simply too bad you were incapable of either defending your position with more than your own feelings or responding to direct questions with anything more than childishly stomping your foot and saying, "Just take my word because I said so!"

But rest assured, you still more than managed to tell me everything I need to know about your actual knowledge of the situation and the weight your opinion should be afforded.
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Every single one of them.

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#2618 gizmo2337

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:54 AM

I think Fehr's done a good job. All he has done is organised the players into an effective communication hub. I think he really does speak on behalf of the players and not for them. Bettman on the other hand, I'm not so sure. Let's change that governing board vote to a 50%+1 pass and see what happens. It's never going to happen, but it would probably change the attitude of the NHL offers.

I really hope the make whole is "made whole" by the owner that signed the contract to begin with. I don't want the league to collectively share in that payment. Craig Leipold deserves to pay every last dime.

What I am really wishing is that some of the NHL veteran leadership would speak out to the union. I don't want to hear any more Crosby whining towards the NHL owners. (I wonder how Mario feels about this). It was nice to hear Jagr speak out, but how about Iginla or Doan, considering they are also part owners of a money losing Blazers WHL team? They need to speak to their own union, not the NHL, and tell the younger players to take a few punches and move on.

Edit, apparently they did speak out. The Iginla article is a good read, honest, and to the point.

“It’s not a matter of us trying to get anything back from the owners. We’re trying to find a way to get a deal that, in five years, Gary won’t be coming back and saying, ‘The game is better than ever, but there’s still a few teams (struggling) and instead of 50%, we want you to take 40%,’ ” Iginla said.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/2012/09/21/pf-20218026.html

We did come to 50-50 as they proposed,” said Doan. “When people ask for money, they usually say ‘give me your money or I’m going to hurt you. They don’t say ‘give me your money and I’m going to hurt you.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/2012/10/18/20292831.html

Edited by gizmo2337, 14 November 2012 - 11:19 AM.

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#2619 fwybwed

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:15 AM

Yuk yuk yuk~! Some of these people who try to push there ideal package on the CBA are about as sharp as a butter knife...

I can see that you may have an opinion on the CBA and its more weighted to the NHLPA but when realism kicks in you get all butt hurt. Thats why I say some people are so clingy to the players jock straps that they feel the need to cut anyone who says the NHLPA are not going to get what they are asking for...."Will to!" UUH HUUH! lol

Who locked who out here? {NHL} Who hired the gun to rep them in this battle? {Players}Who asked the NHLPA Rep Fehr to stick to these meetings and get er done? {Players} because maybe just MAYBE they are starting to realize that "Well damn Im not in demand as I think I am"

You see the players will lose, and Fehr will have done nothing but poke the beast that is the NHL~!

I watched the OHL/Russia games and was entertained some of them have the stuff...so I know that the NHL will always have talent...and the ones waiting for this CBA will only get old.

Go OWNERS~!
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#2620 elvis15

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:15 AM

So that would be a big fat "no" to having a single shred of proof to back up your many assertions then.

How sad that you find direct questions to be "rambling." Or is that simply a convenient excuse to avoid answering a single one of them?

And yes, I expected you "help me understand" your point. It's called participating in a discussion. This is a discussion forum, after all. It's simply too bad you were incapable of either defending your position with more than your own feelings or responding to direct questions with anything more than childishly stomping your foot and saying, "Just take my word because I said so!"

But rest assured, you still more than managed to tell me everything I need to know about your actual knowledge of the situation and the weight your opinion should be afforded.

I knew that a long time ago. His posts outside of this thread are largely fine, but the majority in here are reminiscent of KingoftheES so I just put him on ignore since he isn't willing to either back up his claims or accept any argument to the contrary. The discussion in this thread goes a lot better when you don't have to read his posts.
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#2621 Drybone

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:50 PM

And now comes Mr Rechhi to finally admit what I have been writing all along.

The NHLPA hiring Fehr has pissed the owners off to no end. He has already cost the players and unless something drastic happens now, its going to get worse.

There is one thing about only being able to see it from the union side, but even the most ardent NHLPA fan has got to admit that this has been nothing short of a disaster for them.

They need to Fehr to step down as a sign of good faith to the owners .

The owners own the league. The players own nothing. I dont know who convinced them they had some kind of 50/50 muscle with the owners but they have been b#tch slapped back to reality.

With that said, Fehr needs to get out of the way and a hockey guy come in with a fresh credibility and try to save the season. Lets get on with it.
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#2622 Drybone

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:54 PM

Yuk yuk yuk~! Some of these people who try to push there ideal package on the CBA are about as sharp as a butter knife...

I can see that you may have an opinion on the CBA and its more weighted to the NHLPA but when realism kicks in you get all butt hurt. Thats why I say some people are so clingy to the players jock straps that they feel the need to cut anyone who says the NHLPA are not going to get what they are asking for...."Will to!" UUH HUUH! lol

Who locked who out here? {NHL} Who hired the gun to rep them in this battle? {Players}Who asked the NHLPA Rep Fehr to stick to these meetings and get er done? {Players} because maybe just MAYBE they are starting to realize that "Well damn Im not in demand as I think I am"

You see the players will lose, and Fehr will have done nothing but poke the beast that is the NHL~!

I watched the OHL/Russia games and was entertained some of them have the stuff...so I know that the NHL will always have talent...and the ones waiting for this CBA will only get old.

Go OWNERS~!


The kids here dont matter. They think at age 15 or 20 or 25 they KNOW better than 60 year old MULTI million dollar owners who are about 134 paygrades above them on the life scale of experience and wealth.

So all they know is the youthful opinion from the NHLPA side with the players. They secretly wish they were players playing the NHL, just like I used to do.

And yes they are all BUTT HURT because they did not want to believe what we were writing. They thought a bunch of players who own NOTHING could hire a guy from the outside and BULLY the owners in their own league.

Hiring Fehr was a huge mistake by the players.
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#2623 D-Money

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:15 PM

The kids here dont matter. They think at age 15 or 20 or 25 they KNOW better than 60 year old MULTI million dollar owners who are about 134 paygrades above them on the life scale of experience and wealth.

So all they know is the youthful opinion from the NHLPA side with the players. They secretly wish they were players playing the NHL, just like I used to do.

And yes they are all BUTT HURT because they did not want to believe what we were writing. They thought a bunch of players who own NOTHING could hire a guy from the outside and BULLY the owners in their own league.

Hiring Fehr was a huge mistake by the players.


Your pro-ownership arguments are equally naive.

The owners have managed to earn millions upon millions of dollars - is that an indicator that they'll best be able to determine how to run everything in the best interests of everyone? Or is their massive wealth more of an indicator of how successful they are in exploiting situations for their own benefit?

The owners are trying to not pay out contracts they agreed to in supposedly good faith. If my employer tried that, I would get the best representation I could get too.
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#2624 elvis15

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:23 PM

EDIT: I'm tired and sick today, forget the part about them being copied.

From Botchford (Province article) yesterday:

Schneider is baffled by the current situation, which has developed into a street fight to the finish over players’ contract rights.

Even after the sides agreed revenues will be split 50/50, the owners are seeking significant changes to entry-level deals, contract-length limits, arbitration rights, and free agency.

Is that all?

The owners claim they won’t budge, eliciting a predictable, emotional response from the players. They’re angry.

"They’ve already got a billion dollars and now they want the most restrictive contracting rules in sport," Schneider said. "It seems a little heavy-handed on their part. We’re willing to talk, but it doesn’t seem like they are.

"It’s very frustrating. We feel we’re close and they come out and say, ‘No, we’re not.’"
...
"It’s always easy for us to cave," Schneider responded. "But the proposal they have would really impact us moving forward.

"The detriment it would cause the players on the contracting rights is far greater than the benefits the owners would gain.

"For them, to make (contract rights) their last stand, on all of them, doesn’t make sense to us."
...
"They got the cap and we got contracting rights," Schneider said of the last lockout. "For us, seven years later, to just go right back on those, means it was for nothing. Guys sat out a season of their careers for no real reason. Guys feel strongly about it.

"But we are amenable. We are looking to work on it with (the owners) in areas they really think they need it.

"I think they look at like, if they give us the ‘make whole’ (which would guarantee current contracts), then they get every contracting right they’ve proposed.

"For us, we don’t think that’s how it should work."


Edited by elvis15, 14 November 2012 - 01:41 PM.

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#2625 The Bookie

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

So these all-powerful, all-seeing, all-knowing owners ... they seem to go bankrupt and/or wind up in jail fairly often.

What's up with that?
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#2626 The Bookie

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:57 PM

http://sports.yahoo....21331--nhl.html

Project Orca was the Mitt Romney campaign's secret weapon.
It was a highly-touted, technologically-sophisticated operation that was to give the GOP Presidential nominee a substantial edge on Election Day. Through the use of what the Romney campaign called a "killer" web app, a taskforce of 34,000 volunteers stationed in key precincts throughout swing states would be connected to 800 volunteers in a war room in Boston. It would allow the campaign to stay up-to-date on real-time polling numbers, giving them the insight to strategically deploy Romney campaign workers to round up vital votes throughout the day.
Project Orca was going to nudge standard exit polling towards obsolescence. "At 5 o'clock, when the exit polls come out, we won't pay attention to that," Romney for President Communications Director Gail Gitcho boasted to PBS the day before the election. "We will have had much more scientific information just based on the political operation we have set up. [...] The Obama campaign likes to brag about their ground operation, but it's nothing compared to this."
The floor of the TD Garden arena in Boston was the location of Project Orca's war room on Election Night -- an expected location for such a massive undertaking, but a curious one, given the timing.
You see, Election Day in the U.S. was Nov. 6. Also scheduled for that date, for most of the calendar year: The Boston Bruins' home game against the Minnesota Wild that evening.
In fact, if the owners' Oct. 16 offer to end the NHL lockout and salvage an 82-game season had gone through, the game versus the Wild would have become the Bruins' home opener.
Of course, the lockout wasn't settled. The game was cancelled on Oct. 26, when the League officially pulled the plug on its November schedule.
None of these scenarios mattered to Boston Bruins owner Jeremy Jacobs. Because he already had alternate plans for the building on Election Night.
The Romney campaign told staff and volunteers they would be working from TD Garden on Election Day as early as Oct. 22, when the space was mentioned on a training call. According to a volunteer who was on the Oct. 22 call, Romney's Deputy Political Director Dan Centinello pointed to the TD Garden as the war room location.
This is four days after the NHL rejected the NHLPA's trio of counter-offers, but also four days before the NHL closed the books on playing games on this date.
Even with an offer still on the table -- one that purported to be a sincere, last-ditch attempt to save the 82-game season -- Jeremy Jacobs was quite confident that the Bruins wouldn't be staging their home opener on Election Night.
According to a campaign official, the TD Garden owners waited until they were sure the lockout would continue through November before officially reserving the space. In the meantime, the campaign kept a reservation in the nearby Hynes Convention Center as a backup location.
"A little less than a month out we inquired with the Boston Garden," a Romney campaign official told Yahoo! News. "They indicated that if the space was available, they would be happy to look at renting it, but they would be unsure given the lockout."
It is unclear exactly when TD Garden owners confirmed the booking officially, but the Romney campaign was telling volunteers to prepare to work from the arena before its availability was confirmed.
If this frustrates you a little as a hockey fan, rest assured that the hockey gods took it upon themselves to exact cruel, cruel vengeance.
[img]http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/L75pUA9zkn00fzATLzSG9g--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTMxMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusnhlexperts/143971639.jpg[/img]Getty ImagesProject Orca was named as a response to the Obama administration's Project Narwhal -- the orca being the narwhal's natural predator -- but you'd have thought it was named for the Vancouver Canucks' logo: Like the 2011 Stanley Cup Final runners-up, it collapsed the moment it entered the TD Garden.
Romney's political director Rich Beeson told Politicothat Project Orca was never tested in the TD Garden. When so much data started flowing into the facility, it was perceived to be a hack and rejected.
The TD Garden Wi-Fi, which had recently been updated, crashed under the major influx of traffic. Then the app's server, which was also located at the Garden, crashed as well.
(Bruins haters in Philadelphia will be pleased to know that, at one point, the war room even lost their connection to the campaign's data center because Comcast shut the server down, thinking the spike in traffic was caused by a denial of service attack.)
The whole operation went to crap. Tim Thomas could have warned them that the TD Garden wasn't the ideal place to push a right-wing agenda.
This article from Business Insider explains just how bewildering and discouraging Project Orca turned out to be for Romney supporters out in the field, many of whom spent up to six hours trying to contact someone:


By 2PM, I had completely given up. I finally got ahold of someone at around 1PM and I never heard back. From what I understand, the entire system crashed at around 4PM. I'm not sure if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me. I decided to wait for my wife to get home from work to vote, which meant going very late (around 6:15PM). Here's the kicker, I never got a call to go out and vote. So, who the hell knows if that end of it was working either.
So, the end result was that 30,000+ of the most active and fired-up volunteers were wandering around confused and frustrated when they could have been doing anything else to help. Like driving people to the polls, phone-banking, walking door-to-door, etc. We lost by fairly small margins in Florida, Virginia, Ohio and Colorado. If this had worked could it have closed the gap? I sure hope not for my sanity's sake.


Ars Technica describes some of the other technical problems Project Orca had as a result, but here's all you need to know: In the end, the operation was described by one Orca user as a "huge cluster[Gretzky]".
Project Orca wound up being a massive waste of time, resources and top volunteers, stranding Romney supporters in all the major swing states. And, while the project was full of errors (including a big typo in the ORCA packet, as detailed in the article above), the decision to base it out of the TD Garden played a major role in the operation's failure.
Some have even suggested that the program helped cost Romney the election.
(Then again, Jacobs might have been okay with that. He's donated $52,785 to the Democratic Party over the last two years, although he also gave $5000 to the Romney campaign.)
But regardless of your political affiliations: If you're a hockey fan, it should delight you to know that none of this would have happened for a major political party if the TD Garden had held a hockey game that night. Like it should have.


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#2627 Brambojoe

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:00 PM

I think from a union perspective Crosby is the right player to speak out on contracting rights....it's not like it's a big issue for him personally (his contract goes until what - 2025?).
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#2628 fwybwed

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:28 PM

So these all-powerful, all-seeing, all-knowing owners ... they seem to go bankrupt and/or wind up in jail fairly often.

What's up with that?


Link!?!? Pics or didn't happen...and I want links to all the owners of each and every NHL team past and present...please...lol Guess D-Money missed the "make whole" offer to honor all existing contracts under the previous CBA~! And to think some of the owners have gave out some hefty contracts right before the Lock out....looks like a sign of good faith to me on behalf of the owners....who were to make whole on these contracts...Shnides: "They’ve already got a billion dollars and now they want the most restrictive contracting rules in sport," Schneider said. "It seems a little heavy-handed on their part. We’re willing to talk, but it doesn’t seem like they are."I would like the Dragons of "The Dragons Den" to way in on this lolGo OWNERS~!
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#2629 D-Money

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:51 PM

Link!?!? Pics or didn't happen...and I want links to all the owners of each and every NHL team past and present...please...lol Guess D-Money missed the "make whole"  offer to honor all existing contracts under the previous CBA~!...


"Make it whole", as initially presented, would be mostly covered by players. The owners are now stating that they'll fund it...BUT, in exchange, the players need to make other concessions with contracting rights.

So, in other words, "We'll honor the contracts in full, but only if you give up a bunch of your fundamental contracting rights". That sounds like good faith to you?
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#2630 RWMc1

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:20 PM

League stooge? Hyperbole? You are reduced to personal insults now? In other words the NHLPA argument has failed.

It it is utterly irrelevant what you think . Just as it doesnt matter what I think or what my personal feelings are. Just so you know, I would prefer they get on with a contract so we can get on with the season.

It is irrelevant to you or what the terms are. Neither of us will ever have anything to do with how they split it up . Just as we will never hoist the Stanley Cup nor ever play in the NHL or have anything to do with the Canucks other than just be fans.

However, I have come to discuss the facts from a dispassionate point of view of the real world. And those facts are exactly as I have laid them out. I am not sugar coating this for anyone.

League has all power, NHLPA has none.

Again, it is irrelevant what you WANT TO BELIEVE. Its what the actual reality is. Anyone who believes the NHLPA has any power at this point must be deluded i. Its so obvious they dont.

I have been telling you all along . I am sorry you dont want to believe it. However, I'm not going to sink to throwing personal insults at you. If you are still holding a vigil for the NHLPA to somehow 'win' , I feel sorry for you.

Because you don't seem to understand meanings I've included the meaning of the word hyperbole for you. You're welcome.
hyperbole \hy-PUHR-buh-lee\ , noun:
Extravagant exaggeration.


If the owners had "all the power", they could tell the players that maximum salary will be $500,000 and the players would eventually have to take it. That will never happen. You are using hyperbole.

You seem to be the one who is butthurt. I stated that you "come across" as a league stooge. I based this opinion on the tone of your posts and your overuse of hyperbole. Image control is SOP for corporations and I don't believe for a second that the League doesn't have people patrolling social media sites etc in order to do their spin control. You seem like one of them. If that hurts your feelings and is insulting to you then perhaps you are a tad over-sensitive.
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#2631 theminister

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:24 PM

Link!?!? Pics or didn't happen...and I want links to all the owners of each and every NHL team past and present...please...lol Guess D-Money missed the "make whole" offer to honor all existing contracts under the previous CBA~! And to think some of the owners have gave out some hefty contracts right before the Lock out....looks like a sign of good faith to me on behalf of the owners....who were to make whole on these contracts...Shnides: "They've already got a billion dollars and now they want the most restrictive contracting rules in sport," Schneider said. "It seems a little heavy-handed on their part. We're willing to talk, but it doesn't seem like they are."I would like the Dragons of "The Dragons Den" to way in on this lolGo OWNERS~!


Never heard of John Spano or Boots Del Baggio?
Heck, that's off the top of my head but I know there are more. Bruce McNall was a crook too.
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#2632 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:27 PM

@TSNBobMcKenzie
No news is no news on CBA front. On the bright side, it's a gorgeous sunny, mild day in Vancouver. No better city for a long walkabout.
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#2633 poetica

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:31 PM

Former NHL tough guy hopes cooler heads prevail
Rob Ray: Why is the NHL risking what they've created?


Rob Ray fought a lot of battles in his 16-year NHL career.

He can see this off-ice dustup ending sooner or later.

The former Buffalo Sabres' tough-guy has kept busy through the lockout helping make sure the club's alumni stays active by helping fill the charitable void left by the fact the regular NHLers aren't around to raise valuable funds.

While Ray's done his best to keep the giving alive, he's only a spectator in this lockout. But he hopes cooler heads prevail between the NHL and the NHL Players' Association and a collective bargaining agreement gets put in place.

"I still think it's going to happen at the beginning of January with a 40-to-50 game season," Ray said Wednesday from Buffalo. "I just think it's too important. They can't risk (losing another year).
"You hear from people, 'The fans will come back.' But, there's just a really bitter feeling and I just don't see why they're risking what they've created."

Ray isn't blaming the owners or the players. He believes both sides have to share responsibility for not being able to get a deal in place to avoid this mess, but he did note that commissioner Gary Bettman has a track record.

"I could sit and say Bettman is a jerk but he's done a decent job growing the game and with TV packages," said Ray, a colour analyst on Sabres' broadcasts on MSG. "You have to give him credit for that. But, when it comes to this stuff, it becomes all about him. In that way, he is making a bit of a fool of himself.

"He could be the hero with the game growing, the revenues the way they are and people in the buildings. I think he's a bit of gambler thinking that everybody is going to come back. I just think he's risking too much."

When -- and if -- the NHL does return this season, the fans will likely return in all seven Canadian cities, plus hockey markets in the United States like Buffalo, Boston, Minnesota and Chicago. It won't be the case everywhere.

"Where the game has come from one night a week on Hockey Night in Canada, to all the local markets and now there's hockey on TV every night. Think of the all the interest that has been created, but it's not embedded into people (in some places in the United States)," said Ray. "It's a little different story in Buffalo, but you get south of Pennsylvania and hockey can be a forgotten sport. There's too many other things to replace it."

Ray threw a lot of punches in his career and he understands the players not wanting to back down, but he believes in the end they'll emerge winners if they get an agreement.

"I can agree with the players. I get the fact they need to get what they want," said Ray. "In my view, from experience, it doesn't matter what deal you sign. The owners cannot help themselves. They are going to spend the money.

"If Lou Lamoriello can figure out a way to sign (Ilya) Kovalchuk to the (17-year) deal he signed, then anybody can or is going to be willing to (sign guys). Everybody looked at Lou as running an organization they wanted. Then, he starts doing that stuff, it opens the door for everybody."
Ray said the players would just have to be patient once the new CBA is in place.

"I don't think as a player you're going to hit that home run as soon as the CBA is signed. It's going to take time," said Ray. "(The owners) are going to start paying. The whole, 'We're worried about the guys coming after us.'

"When I first started playing, I signed and Rick Vaive was making $400,000. Most of us anywhere from $75,000-to-$200,000 and we're all like, 'Can you imagine making $400,000? That would be the greatest thing in the world.' It wasn't five years and everybody was at that. The salaries have progressively gone up since. Don't sit there and worry about the guy coming up after you."

Source: http://www.torontosu...r-heads-prevail
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Every single one of them.

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#2634 boxiebrown

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:09 PM

The kids here dont matter. They think at age 15 or 20 or 25 they KNOW better than 60 year old MULTI million dollar owners who are about 134 paygrades above them on the life scale of experience and wealth.

So all they know is the youthful opinion from the NHLPA side with the players. They secretly wish they were players playing the NHL, just like I used to do.

And yes they are all BUTT HURT because they did not want to believe what we were writing. They thought a bunch of players who own NOTHING could hire a guy from the outside and BULLY the owners in their own league.

Hiring Fehr was a huge mistake by the players.


I think the Romney campaign (and its donors) should pretty conclusively demonstrate that your net worth does not correlate at all with your intelligence. There are some smart NHL owners, and there are some idiots. They're just normal people.

Also, I'm a lawyer at a management side labour law firm, who's also studied sports law. So... yeah. I know more about this than you.
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#2635 The Bookie

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:10 PM

Link!?!? Pics or didn't happen...and I want links to all the owners of each and every NHL team past and present...please...lol Guess D-Money missed the "make whole" offer to honor all existing contracts under the previous CBA~! And to think some of the owners have gave out some hefty contracts right before the Lock out....looks like a sign of good faith to me on behalf of the owners....who were to make whole on these contracts...Shnides: "They've already got a billion dollars and now they want the most restrictive contracting rules in sport," Schneider said. "It seems a little heavy-handed on their part. We're willing to talk, but it doesn't seem like they are."I would like the Dragons of "The Dragons Den" to way in on this lolGo OWNERS~!


There is nothing on this earth more satisfying than successfully trolling a troll.
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#2636 The Bookie

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:14 PM

But since you asked fwybed, here's my favorite example:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Bruce_McNall

Former Kings owner who got Bettman the job as commissioner.

In December 1993, McNall defaulted on a $90 million loan, and Bank of America threatened to force the Kings into bankruptcy unless he sold the team. He sold controlling interest in the Kings in May 1994 and resigned as chairman of the board of governors, though he still remained as president and governor of the Kings for a time.[5]
Shortly afterward, he granted an interview to Vanity Fair in which he admitted smuggling many of his prized coins out of foreign countries. His claim of graduating from Oxford University was also debunked.[6]
On December 14, he pleaded guilty to five counts of conspiracy and fraud, and admitted to bilking six banks out of $236 million over a ten-year period.[3] He was sentenced to 70 months in prison. Immediately after his conviction, it emerged that his free-spending ways had put the Kings in serious financial jeopardy. They were ultimately forced into bankruptcy in 1995.[7] The financial problems from the McNall era plagued the Kings for several years afterward.


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#2637 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:37 PM

Your post rambles and unfornutately does not add anything of value.You spend too much time insisting that Ido something to help your understanding. I would advise you read it again and I am sure it will come to yourself.

I feel sorry for those who still believe the NHLPA are somehow going to win. I pity you.

They have no power. Anyone who thinks they do is deluded. . Hiring Fehr has hurt the Union.

We shall see how far he will go to make a deal. I can assure you the owners dont have to make any deal.


No one thinks the PA is going to win.

They are taking a 7% Rollback and probably a loss of some contracting right too, there's no way they will win.

And it is up to the Owner's/Bettman to make the deal, they are the one's who are responsible for the state of the game, and growing revenue's, Fehr's only responsibility is to get the best deal possible for the players.


But could you please explain how we are all so "deluded" for believing Fehr has done a great job and was a great hire, me and other's have made good points on our stance, you really haven't made any. You said you can assure us, so do it.
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#2638 canucksnihilist

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:13 PM

yup. NHLPA is already a lost cause.

really they should admit they have 25% too many members, fire 1/4 of them, and shrink the league down to a respectable competitive number of teams.

and the owners should just donate all their profits to charity.

and romney sucks bullocks!
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#2639 The Bookie

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:15 PM

The NHL created this monster problem in 2004

"A long dispute means that both parties are wrong." -- Voltaire
The core of the National Hockey League labour dispute at this point lies in the "framing" of the problem.
Consider these two statements about the current lockout:
1. Owners are demanding nothing but concessions.
2. Players are being offered more money than hockey players have ever been paid.
Both statements are categorically true, yet elicit vastly different reactions depending on who you are talking to. As much as we may like to demonize one side or the other in this affair, the reality is that both sides are telling the truth. The problem is that, for each side, their perspective has become the only perspective, and they aren't looking at the deal on the table through unbiased eyes. But, as they say ... perspective is everything.
Improper framing often leads to a failure to properly identify the true problem. The owners can't understand why the players would turn down so much money. The players can't understand why the owners want to strip so much away after helping to grow the game.
If you aren't sure where you stand on this issue (besides indifferent or fed up), consider that the real sadness of this situation is that the NHL has never been healthier as a business. Since the last lockout, revenues have steadily grown at about seven per cent per year, to about $3.3 billion. It is instructive to look at where this tremendous growth has come from.
It has come from a variety of sources, mostly the following (in no particular order):
* Better worldwide marketing and media coverage (new rules, Winter Classic, 24/7, etc.).
* More arena-based revenue from new or renovated facilities.
* Strong revenue from once troubled franchises that the league worked hard to salvage (Edmonton, Ottawa, Pittsburgh, etc.).
* Stronger Canadian dollar.
* Higher demand for live-sport programming on all media.
Who gets the credit for the growth in the business?
The league is responsible for the first three items as it has made significant financial investments along with some smart business decisions. Market forces beyond anyone's control have dictated the latter two items, and while both parties have benefitted neither can take credit for them.
The players can't really claim to have contributed anything to the growth of the business. How much did they contribute to the $850-million renovation of Madison Square Garden or the construction of Toronto's Air Canada Centre? They aren't doing anything different than players have been doing for decades. They do what they do, show up and play.
From the preceding paragraph it would be easy to side with the owners/league in this dispute. However, they are not an easy group to side with.
In hindsight, they really created the NHLPA monster that they are dealing with now when they agreed to be "partners" with the players in this revenue-sharing model. Due to this revenue-based partnership, the salary cap grew from $39.5 million per team to approximately $70.2 million in 2012-13 (if they were playing).
Consider that in 2004, the NHL rejected an NHLPA offer of a flat $45-million team cap for the last seven years not tied to revenue. In doing so, they cost themselves hundreds of millions of dollars and a chance at a relatively easy negotiation this time around. They could have looked downright generous in raising the cap to about $60 million per team in the current deal. Coming up $15 million per team would be making them a lot of friends in the NHLPA as opposed to what is happening now with what is, ironically, actually a more generous offer.
At some point, both sides need to walk a mile in the others shoes to understand why this isn't working.



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#2640 Erik Karlsson

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:03 PM

They'll prob make a deal close to christmas when all the players are back home and start Jan 1st.
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