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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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#2791 The Bookie

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:47 PM

That means as long as Bettman has 7 owners with him, he can do whatever he wants and the other owners can't do anything about it. So, technically, that means it currently only takes 7 votes to pass something that Bettman recommends.


I believe the 8-team rule only applies to vetoing deals though. To approve one it is 16 (standard majority).
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#2792 theminister

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:49 PM

I believe the 8-team rule only applies to vetoing deals though. To approve one it is 16 (standard majority).


Not correct.

By veto they mean voting, as in 23 of 30 for approval.
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#2793 Rey

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:50 PM

Ian White is an idiot and everyone who has spoken up on the subject has made things worse. Don't they get it? It's a poker game now with Fehr and Bettman. Every time a hockey player talks whether its Latrendress that has spoke about the PA and how they should have accepted the deal two weeks ago, to the White's of the world who says Bettmans an idiot. The more frustrating one side is, the other side is laughing it up. Someones going to give in eventually, and like I've said before, its a very good chance it's the players because the Owners have always called the shots.

Bettman telling the NHLPA to take a 2 weeks break is just business and reality in for the players. You don't want a deal? Fine. I'll Cancel another month and the offers, money continue to decrease and get worse. It's until the Players realize that they are arguing over nothing, and they'll have to go back to accepting a deal that was previous offered or to never play hockey again, that the lockout will be over. The Pressures on both of them now, but eventually someones going to crack.

Ian White cracking does nothing. Nobody cares about Ian White.
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#2794 theminister

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:52 PM

Ian White cracking does nothing. Nobody cares about Ian White.


Yup.

Everyone but player reps should just keep their mouth shut one way or the other. And stop tweeting, morons. I'm looking at you Dan Cleary. (makes me wonder what is going on in convos of Wings players right now)
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#2795 Rey

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:55 PM

Yup.

Everyone but player reps should just keep their mouth shut one way or the other. And stop tweeting, morons. I'm looking at you Dan Cleary. (makes me wonder what is going on in convos of Wings players right now)


For Sure. Jonathan Toews hasn't been quite about the situation but there's a hell lot of fans who lost respect for the guy after what he said. The guy has peanuts for brains.

NHLPA refuses to take the 2 week break, we'll see a few more people "Cracking" in the next week and i think we'll have hockey in Dec 1. If not, we'll good bye season. As of right now, I could care less. They all deserve to lose money.

Thanks AA(Alex Anthopoulos), As a Sports fan, at least we can watch the Jays and their new powerhouse team.

Edited by Rey, 17 November 2012 - 12:59 PM.

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#2796 poetica

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:30 PM

I believe the 8-team rule only applies to vetoing deals though. To approve one it is 16 (standard majority).


True. BUT, Bettman only needs 8 owners (or 7 right now since Phoenix is owned by the NHL) to side with him to reject any offer he wants regardless of what the other owners think. So, though it may technically take more to pass something, if only a small group can veto anything they want, they get to ultimately control what is passed because they control what is even up for an approval vote to begin with. As Dan Boyle said, that means that a small group of owners can be holding up the entire process regardless of what the others think. And add to that the $1M fine owners can be slapped with for having any public opinion that the NHL didn't approve first and Ian White was correct when he said the NHL's process is not democratic and disproportionately empowers a few owners over and possibly at the expense of the others.
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#2797 theminister

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:39 PM

True. BUT, Bettman only needs 8 owners (or 7 right now since Phoenix is owned by the NHL) to side with him to reject any offer he wants regardless of what the other owners think. So, though it may technically take more to pass something, if only a small group can veto anything they want, they get to ultimately control what is passed because they control what is even up for an approval vote to begin with. As Dan Boyle said, that means that a small group of owners can be holding up the entire process regardless of what the others think. And add to that the $1M fine owners can be slapped with for having any public opinion that the NHL didn't approve first and Ian White was correct when he said the NHL's process is not democratic and disproportionately empowers a few owners over and possibly at the expense of the others.


I'm not sure where you are getting this 16 from. It takes 23 yeses to approve a deal. Am I missing something here?

If this does go sideways I can see the NHL needing to use Bettman as a sacrificial lamb to appease the fans for the 2014 season. This may be part of the NHLPAs strategy. Maybe Bettman knows this too and that's why no negotiating can be done with him at the table. He's fighting for his livelihood here.
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#2798 Salmonberries

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:54 PM

I have spent some time pondering this thing and I have decided that I would like to see not only one lost full season...but three. I have wild visions of significant US market shrinkage and serious franchise contraction, as well as deep drops in player salaries/costs and ticket prices.

Bring on the endless lockout!
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#2799 poetica

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:56 PM

I'm not sure where you are getting this 16 from. It takes 23 yeses to approve a deal. Am I missing something here?

If this does go sideways I can see the NHL needing to use Bettman as a sacrificial lamb to appease the fans for the 2014 season. This may be part of the NHLPAs strategy. Maybe Bettman knows this too and that's why no negotiating can be done with him at the table. He's fighting for his livelihood here.


I'm sure where you're getting 16 from either since I didn't mention 16 anything.

He may be fighting for his livelihood, or he may just as likely be secured in his position by the same small number of owners he needs to back him to reject offers. Who knows. Either way, this whole clusterfu...makinglove is bad for fans, bad for hockey, and ultimately bad for the NHL!
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#2800 RAMBUTANS

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:00 PM

The problem with you all is that you are addicted to the game. After the 2004 lock-out, you rewarded the owners and PA with 3.3 Billion smackeroos. As an appreciation, they slapped you with another work stoppage a few years after.

Now' there is outrage. Another season is lost. Everyone says that they will walk away from the game. A few say they will get even.

Let me tell you what will happen, after the Replacement players are gone and the regular players are back, you will all go and fill up the arena and buy tons of jerseys. Yes, you will give them another 6 billion in profit.

Six years from now, the NHL and PA will lock it out again and decide how to divide the loot, and round and round we go........because you are all addicted to the game.

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#2801 The Bookie

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:04 PM

Yeah sorry, 23 sounds right to me too. Wasn't sure so I did a quick google and came up with 16. My mistake.

So just to confirm, Bettman needs:

8 votes to say No
23 votes to say Yes

is this right?
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#2802 poetica

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:06 PM

The problem with you all is that you are addicted to the game. After the 2004 lock-out, you rewarded the owners and PA with 3.3 Billion smackeroos. As an appreciation, they slapped you with another work stoppage a few years after.
....
Six years from now, the NHL and PA will lock it out again and decide how to divide the loot, and round and round we go........because you are all addicted to the game.


I agree, which is why I'm trying to get fans to not spend anything for a year or so to punish them so they hopefully won't do this again.

That being said, I have to say I found the third person pronouns funny though. You're here posting it about it during a lockout too, so I'm guessing you haven't found anything to fill all of that time you would normally spend on hockey either. ;)
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#2803 poetica

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

So just to confirm, Bettman needs:

8 votes to say No
23 votes to say Yes

is this right?


I believe so, except according to the article posted earlier he only needs 7 owners right now because the NHL owns Phoenix.

But again, if 7 owners can veto any offer they want they ultimately get to decide what gets passed since they'll just veto every offer they do not want and the other owners will have no choice but to go along with approving any offer they don't veto.
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#2804 The Bookie

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:12 PM

The problem with you all is that you are addicted to the game. After the 2004 lock-out, you rewarded the owners and PA with 3.3 Billion smackeroos. As an appreciation, they slapped you with another work stoppage a few years after.

Now' there is outrage. Another season is lost. Everyone says that they will walk away from the game. A few say they will get even.


Speak for yourself. I wasn't even following hockey in 2004. I lost interest in the late 90s (living in Toronto will have that effect upon people). My interest was renewed in 2006 from a good friend and life long Canucks fan.

Also, I'm not outraged. Mildly annoyed is more like it. I'd rather be watching hockey but I'm fascinated by labour disputes anyways, and at least they're keeping this one interesting. Actually with the way the league is slowly starting to look like a trainwreck in these negotiations, I'm close to proclaiming this more entertaining than early season hockey.

Ultimately I just don't want to see an entire season lost. I'm perfectly fine with them hashing this out until both sides are happy, and starting in Dec or Jan.
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#2805 theminister

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:14 PM

I'm sure where you're getting 16 from either since I didn't mention 16 anything.

He may be fighting for his livelihood, or he may just as likely be secured in his position by the same small number of owners he needs to back him to reject offers. Who knows. Either way, this whole clusterfu...makinglove is bad for fans, bad for hockey, and ultimately bad for the NHL!


Sorry, you were quoting Bookies post that referenced 16. It appeared to me you were confirming that which confused me since I know you to be very knowledgable on the subject.

Never mind. Carry on.

Edit: Re Bold - Say what now? you flirting with me? :wub:

Edited by theminister, 17 November 2012 - 02:16 PM.

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#2806 WHL rocks

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:25 PM

From the article theminister posted above:



That means as long as Bettman has 7 owners with him, he can do whatever he wants and the other owners can't do anything about it. So, technically, that means it currently only takes 7 votes to pass something that Bettman recommends.

Guess that jock wasn't a dumb as you thought.

As you guys have noted further down the thread It takes 23 for approval not 8 or 7 because of PHX situation.

Dumb jock is right.

Edited by WHL rocks, 17 November 2012 - 02:26 PM.

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#2807 poetica

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:51 PM

Edit: Re Bold - Say what now? you flirting with me? :wub:


*lol* Sorry, I was just making a bad joke to avoid the curse word in the term that best describes this whole situation.
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#2808 Tangerines

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:53 PM

Bettman is old and senile.
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#2809 DeNiro

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:54 PM

So they're meeting Monday night in New York to continue negotiations.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned that.
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#2810 poetica

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:57 PM

As you guys have noted further down the thread It takes 23 for approval not 8 or 7 because of PHX situation.

Dumb jock is right.


Yes, it takes that number for official approval. However, yet again, if 7 owners (if Phoenix is excluded) can block any proposal they want those 7 have the controlling vote on which proposal is accepted as they will simply veto any they don't want until they finally get the one they do want. It's really not that complicated.

Do you play sports?
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#2811 poetica

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:59 PM

So they're meeting Monday night in New York to continue negotiations.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned that.


I hadn't seen anyone mention it and hadn't noticed that tweet by Dreger on TSN until you mentioned it.

Here's the exact tweet for anyone interested.

@DarrenDreger: NHL and PA expect to meet Monday night. Smaller group, but players and owners likely included.


Let's hope that's good news!

Edited by poetica, 17 November 2012 - 03:00 PM.

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#2812 WHL rocks

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:11 PM

Yes, it takes that number for official approval. However, yet again, if 7 owners (if Phoenix is excluded) can block any proposal they want those 7 have the controlling vote on which proposal is accepted as they will simply veto any they don't want until they finally get the one they do want. It's really not that complicated.

Do you play sports?


Your post is correct but you seem to be confused about what White said. If White had said what you are saying he wouldn't be a moron.

Do you play sports?

Edited by WHL rocks, 17 November 2012 - 03:25 PM.

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#2813 Erik Karlsson

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:25 PM

I agree with White, Bettman is an idiot, if he really cared about the league he would do everything he can to try and end this lockout and improve the league but he seems to be doing the opposite, especially with his no meeting for 2 weeks, even if it was just a tactic. Sure some owners have a part in this, but some owners already said publicly we should be playing hockey and I'm sure there are more, but they don't want to get fined.

Clearly he doesn't care about the fans since he gets booed everywhere he goes, hopefully it's not his way of getting back at everyone.

Not saying that the players are much better though in these negotiations.

I don't know if the league can be any more of a joke, it's getting ridiculous now.

I mean... they had lunch to discuss if they wanted to have a meeting.... like wtf. This is all about egos.

Edited by TheGame., 17 November 2012 - 03:26 PM.

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#2814 poetica

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:50 PM

Your post is correct but you seem to be confused about what White said. If White had said what you are saying he wouldn't be a moron.

Do you play sports?


You're right, he was wrong is the "it only takes 8 to approve" statement. But my point is that the spirit of what he said is actually true. If there are only 7 or 8 owners vetoing everything except the deal they want, it's their approval that's needed to get anything passed.

Besides, if we called everyone who made a mistake a "moron" we'd all have hurt feelings. Remember your post just yesterday about the union assuming a 5% yearly growth as if that were so outrageous when that's actually the NHL's number?

Edited by poetica, 17 November 2012 - 03:54 PM.

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#2815 poetica

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:51 PM

The NHL and NHLPA intend on resuming bargaining Monday night in New York City.

The dynamic of those attending hasn't been confirmed, although it's expected both players and owners will be involved in what is described as a "smaller group" meeting.

NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly tells TSN the league's position has been somewhat misrepresented and while the NHL has certain perameters it isn't willing to budge on, he suggests there is flexibility as the negotiation remains in a critical stage.

"Nothing was ever said or even suggested that we needed the details of our proposal "down to the comma. We told them the issues we wanted addressed in the system. We told them we have provided a proposal that we think will effectively address those issues. But we told them that we are open to discussing other ways to address those issues if they want to propose any. In fact, we used the exact example of "if we need 5 and we have proposed 3+2 to get there, that we are happy to listening to and considering 4+1 instead. I'm not sure why they chose to characterize the way they did. As I've said before. I can only control what we say."

Source: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409721
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#2816 Shift-4

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:02 PM

^^^^

Basically more blah, blah, blah :rolleyes:
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#2817 playboi19

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:39 PM

Everyone keep their panties on.
This is only act 5 of the play.
We're not even a quarter way through this yet.

But I will say this Bettman character plays the villain role well.
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#2818 The Bookie

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 05:03 PM

Easily the funniest comment I've ever read on PuckDaddy:

RockyJ 3 hours ago

You know things are bad when the Flyers and Pens are working together



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#2819 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 05:54 PM

Sometimes it comes down to timing. PHX is a bigger USA media market than Seattle. I agree that Seattle makes more sense but that doesn't mean that at the time they put a team in PHX that there was a potential ownership group interested in Seattle. Now there is and I would be estatic if they moved PHX there.

The NHL committment to major USA media markets has been long term. Their business model is predicated on eventual success. The NBC contract was a break through but not anywhere near the size of what the big three get (MLB, NFL, NBA). Hockey fans in Canada are to a degree hung up on the 'gate' driven revenue model. It works in Canada because the fans are prepared to fork out big bucks to go. PHX is a long way from $250 tickets.

The glimmer of hope that PHX can take away from last year was that in playoffs their attendance was pretty decent. A talented team might actually build on that. However, to a certain extent, as long as the PHX's in the NHL are not losing big time money it makes no difference. American viewers do not know Canadian cities other than TO and maybe Van from the Olympics. Potential American fans of the NHL might be attracted by transferring allegiances from other sports like baseball, basketball or football. ie PHX Cardinals vs the CHI Bears.

Reverting the NHL business plan to a 'gate' driven revenue model will not create the dollars needed to support the cost structure they are experienceing. Media revenue expands beyond the arena limits of 20,000 fans to millions of fans.


Well they have lost big money, to the point now where there is no owner, and the NHL just keep pouring money into every year that they will never make back in that market.

The timing is critical like you said, but I think the timing is now and has been since they lost there owner.

If the Jameison thing can come through and he can own the team then great, they can stay in PHX (even though personally I think they should have been moved already)

But if it doesn't, then they should move. PHX only got 4 games on NBC, nowhere near what other major market NHL teams got that actually have good fan bases.

And for Seattle the timing seems right too, they have people interested in owning a team, the Arena is built I think (or almost done, im not sure I haven't really been following it closely) so things are ready from there side.

As for the playoff thing, I mean c'mon, its the playoffs, anybody will go in the playoffs. An I'm an example of that with the Lions, I will rarley go to a regular season Lions game (I have only been to 1 in my life) but I am probably going to go to the Western Final tommorow because I really want to see a big playoff game, and because it's just the hot thing right now sportswise. And that's the exact same thing that happened with PHX in the playoffs last season.

They have had good playoff teams, they won the division, and went to the 3rd Round and if they stay in Phoenix they won't sell out a game next year I guarantee it.

And personally I think it would be better for NBC in Seattle aswell, and surely the team would be much more profitable and successful witha good fan base behind them.

Once this CBA is settled that is something the NHL has to make a big priority, I'm not sure how it makes sense bussiness wise to be continuously losing money like that for no good reason.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 17 November 2012 - 05:56 PM.

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#2820 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:08 PM

Well atleast they are going to meet again.
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