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Japan vs China vs Taiwan: Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands


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#1 Lancaster

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:23 AM

I am surprised that there haven't been a topic about this yet.

Some backdrop: Some island in Asia with Japan, China and Taiwan claiming it as their own. Nobody really lives there anymore, but it supposedly have lots of hydrocarbon deposits beneath. Basically like ours Hans Island dispute with Denmark a few years back.... except this now involves 1 superpower, 1 economic superpower and 1 middle-power.

Lots of violent protests in China where Japanese nationals are being assaulted, their properties destroyed, and lots of racial slurs shot across the bow.

http://en.wikipedia....Islands_dispute
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#2 EoH

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:48 AM

My grandma told me an old story of how the islands were belonging to china back in the days, but the emperor at the time got sick and the japanese took the emperor in and nursed him back to health. The emperor then gave the japanese those 2 islands as a token of their generosity and kindness.

If this story is somewhat true... My god have times changed.

Worst that can happen is the threat of nuclear warheads or war.....
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#3 Vapourstreak

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 04:54 AM

I am surprised that there haven't been a topic about this yet.

Some backdrop: Some island in Asia with Japan, China and Taiwan claiming it as their own. Nobody really lives there anymore, but it supposedly have lots of hydrocarbon deposits beneath. Basically like ours Hans Island dispute with Denmark a few years back.... except this now involves 1 superpower, 1 economic superpower and 1 middle-power.

Lots of violent protests in China where Japanese nationals are being assaulted, their properties destroyed, and lots of racial slurs shot across the bow.

http://en.wikipedia....Islands_dispute

My guess would be that it wasn't posted because it's so controversial, but it's good to discuss.

I'm in Shenzhen right now, and there were people protesting/borderline rioting a few weeks ago. We had a day off on the anniversary of the Marco-Polo Incident due to the threat of large-scale protests.

Our sister school in Beijing had its doors closed for a week or so, due to it being about a block away from the Japanese embassy. The whole area was cordoned off. Lucky bastards.
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#4 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 05:41 AM

There's a lot of racism towards Japan in the Chinese community. The rocks in the middle of the ocean are just an excuse to let it out.

/end thread.
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#5 Vapourstreak

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:26 AM

There's a lot of racism towards Japan in the Chinese community. The rocks in the middle of the ocean are just an excuse to let it out.

/end thread.

There's a lot of truth in that. However, politically, that is not the case. Both sides genuinely think they have the rights to the islands due to history. The question is, which period of history do you look at? A good case can be made in favour of both sides.
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#6 y0shi

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:21 AM

There's a lot of truth in that. However, politically, that is not the case. Both sides genuinely think they have the rights to the islands due to history. The question is, which period of history do you look at? A good case can be made in favour of both sides.


China also thinks the entire South China Sea is theirs...
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#7 Carpe Diem

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:36 AM

There's a lot of racism towards Japan in the Chinese community. The rocks in the middle of the ocean are just an excuse to let it out.

/end thread.


first sentence is not inaccurate, although I would argue that this feeling is probably mutual. The second statement is a ridiculous over-simplification of the issue.
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#8 Carpe Diem

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:44 AM

My grandma told me an old story of how the islands were belonging to china back in the days, but the emperor at the time got sick and the japanese took the emperor in and nursed him back to health. The emperor then gave the japanese those 2 islands as a token of their generosity and kindness.

If this story is somewhat true... My god have times changed.

Worst that can happen is the threat of nuclear warheads or war.....


i bet your grandma told you about Santa Claus too...

seriously why don't you just spend a few minutes reading the link posted by the OP - even the Japanese doesn't claim this.
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#9 ChenWei91

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:44 AM

Saw this on the Chinese news a couple of weeks ago. They sent out battleships and had a huge water fight!

I had a good laugh.
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#10 Jägermeister

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:54 AM

There's a lot of racism towards Japan in the Chinese community. The rocks in the middle of the ocean are just an excuse to let it out.

/end thread.



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#11 SkeeterHansen

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:20 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7xP5EFThh0


Was waiting for some one to post this. :lol:
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#12 Lancaster

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 04:03 PM

first sentence is not inaccurate, although I would argue that this feeling is probably mutual. The second statement is a ridiculous over-simplification of the issue.


Maybe it's a cultural thing? I mean, there are like dozens of violent protests across China, yet there are only a handful of small, minor protest in Japan from nationalistic groups. It seems that one side seems to have a bigger hatred than the other.
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#13 aeromotacanucks

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 04:08 PM

althout the reason was completely diferent but Argentina did the same thing with England. (Malvinas/Falklands)

maybe it´s not only involving a "piece of rock" but the people moral, for China it shows "we have a great army, a great navy, a great airforce and we´re conquesting more and more things to our great country"...


everywhere you go, you will see things like this...
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#14 Vapourstreak

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:57 PM

Maybe it's a cultural thing? I mean, there are like dozens of violent protests across China, yet there are only a handful of small, minor protest in Japan from nationalistic groups. It seems that one side seems to have a bigger hatred than the other.

This is getting close to a very sensitive topic, but it probably has to do with history, such as WW2 and more. Let's talk about the current situation though, it'll probably avoid the thread being locked. If you want a full blown discussion on the animosity between Asian neighbours, head over to MP.net.
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#15 Jaimito

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 08:56 PM

There's a lot of racism towards Japan in the Chinese community. The rocks in the middle of the ocean are just an excuse to let it out.

/end thread.


and vice versa. the japanese attempted genocide in WWII, and the right winger japanese today still think they are the victims of the war cause they got A-bombed.

that aside, these rocks are just political pawns for each countries respective politicians. in china, they use it to galvanize nationalism and to take attention away from the government to reform, and the shaky power transfer that is current in progress. in japan, they change politicians every few months.
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#16 Jaimito

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 08:59 PM

China also thinks the entire South China Sea is theirs...


and US thinks the entire ocean is theirs. every powerful nation stakes out to claim more influence, esp if it affects their interests.
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#17 Lancaster

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:57 AM

This is getting close to a very sensitive topic, but it probably has to do with history, such as WW2 and more. Let's talk about the current situation though, it'll probably avoid the thread being locked. If you want a full blown discussion on the animosity between Asian neighbours, head over to MP.net.


From my perspective, it seems that China is just flexing their muscle, the government mobilizing the masses with their Sino-centric / anti-Japanese victim card.

Just somethings about this situation kinda just irks me.
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#18 Vapourstreak

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 07:43 AM

From my perspective, it seems that China is just flexing their muscle, the government mobilizing the masses with their Sino-centric / anti-Japanese victim card.

Just somethings about this situation kinda just irks me.

Yeah, it's clearly a lot bigger than the rocks. Just curious, do you have any personal connection to the situation? Family of either nationality?
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#19 KoreanHockeyFan

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 01:46 PM

"The territory is close to key shipping lanes, rich fishing grounds, and there may be oil reserves in the area." - that's from the Wikipedia article on the Senkaku Islands.

However, the reasons for all the civilian outrage is completely different as people still haven't forgotten all the killing that took place 70-80 years ago. Chinese, Koreans, many who had to live through that or had parents that had to still hold some animosity towards the Japanese. It's a cultural thing for the civilians at least.

There's also a nationalist party in Japan right now that is really pressuring the government to keep on with the claiming of the islands.

These island disputes have always been going on, this one is just getting more attention because it involves China. Korea has had ongoing disputes with the Dokto/Takeshima islands with Japan for well over 5 years now.

Yeah, Asians don't really get along, but in the end, these "fights" aren't a big deal. It's just another typical case of overblown egos clashing with one another. It happens all the time. Hell, I've even seen modern Korean sitcoms that still take shots at the Japanese here and there from time to time.

Edited by KoreanHockeyFan, 27 October 2012 - 01:50 PM.

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#20 MoneypuckOverlord

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 04:05 PM

There are 2 sides to both stories.

Chinese public are over reacting, by burning japanese cars, and not buying japanese goods. Somewhat premature...

But please understand. The Chinese people have been embarrased by the Japanese numerous times in history. They are their traditional rival. At this point, China has no choice but to act tough and not give up the land even if its 3 rocks as some of you morons are sayiing. "oh it's just 3 rocks, hand it over." no no no. Never.

If the Government does that, then its a slap in the face to the Chinese people, especially how the Japanese treated China people in the Sino Japaense wars. Both Countries don't want war, I don't even how Taiwan got involved. Anyways, I'm not taking any sides, 2 of these Islands were claimed to be Chinese since Acient China. Japan's claim is that in the 1890, they went to all 3 islands, once per year for 10 years then decided its theres. I don't know, I hope nothing happens. Japan and China depend on each other and they don't know it. Just like how the world is benefitiing from the Rise of China. I really hope nothing happens, I doubt anything will happen. Right now, China is acting tough by sending in patrol boats.
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#21 Canada Hockey Place

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 10:03 PM

No comment on the Chinese and Taiwanese positions. But in Japan, like so many other countries, the far right is so obsessed with power that it just doesn't care what the consequences are and it does not represent what the people think. Governments no longer represent people, they use them.

One of Japan’s highest-profile nationalists, Tokyo Gov. Shintaro Ishihara, said Thursday that he will resign his post and form a political party in a bid to gain power in the country’s central government.

The new party figures to drive Japan even farther to the right at a time when the nation’s two leading political parties have approval ratings below 25 percent. Japan must call a new parliamentary election by August.

During his 13 years as governor — the top post in Japan’s capital — Ishihara, 80, denounced immigrants, spoke about Japanese people’s superior sensibilities and advocated that the nation acquire nuclear weapons. He also said the devastating March 11, 2011, earthquake and tsunami were “divine punishment” because Japan had become too greedy. He was then reelected.

This year, Ishihara launched a bid to buy the Senkaku Islands, territory disputed with China. Because the central government feared an Ishihara takeover of the land, known as Diaoyu in China, it decided on a competing — and successful — bid in an attempt to calm tensions. But the move infuriated China nonetheless, and trade with Beijing has dropped in recent months because of the diplomatic row.

http://www.washingto...abc7_story.html


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#22 Lancaster

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 11:05 PM

^
To be fair, Japan has been a push-over in international politics since WW2.

Nations around Japan that has nuclear weapons:
North Korea - Kidnapped Japanese nationals, wouldn't mind throwing a nuke towards Japan if/when there's a conflict with South Korea.
Russia - the Kuril Islands are still disputed
China - they're not fans of Japan

Talking to people from Japan, it seems that the "far-right" is pretty inaccurate. Almost anything outside the status quo is "far-right".
More nuclear power (Japan has almost no natural resources) = far-right
Less reliant on US military = far-right / militarism
More international clout = far-right / imperialism



Yeah, it's clearly a lot bigger than the rocks. Just curious, do you have any personal connection to the situation? Family of either nationality?


Family on one side, future in-laws on the other.
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#23 Canada Hockey Place

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:18 AM

^ That's the right-wing.

Unfortunately the far-right is even more extreme. http://en.wikipedia....litics_in_Japan
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#24 Vapourstreak

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 02:31 AM

^
To be fair, Japan has been a push-over in international politics since WW2.

Nations around Japan that has nuclear weapons:
North Korea - Kidnapped Japanese nationals, wouldn't mind throwing a nuke towards Japan if/when there's a conflict with South Korea.
Russia - the Kuril Islands are still disputed
China - they're not fans of Japan

Talking to people from Japan, it seems that the "far-right" is pretty inaccurate. Almost anything outside the status quo is "far-right".
More nuclear power (Japan has almost no natural resources) = far-right
Less reliant on US military = far-right / militarism
More international clout = far-right / imperialism


A little similar to the situation Germany was in after the World Wars.
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#25 Offensive Threat

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 06:46 AM

A little similar to the situation Germany was in after the World Wars.


Very different than after WW2. Germany rebuilt a strong military with a lot of aid from the US since they were on point in the cold war with the soviets. Japans peace treaty with the US called for them to only have internal defense forces while the US would protect them from outside threats for a long period of time after the war..

This has changed over time as Germany has scaled back its military due to the end of the cold war and Japan is now in state of increasing its military spending in the face of increased military pressure from China. Japan had a military budget in 2011-12 of aprox $45 billion US dollars annually and plans to more than double this over the next few years. They have greatly increased their military and security ties with Australia and together are looking to form a Pact similar to NATO in Asia with other countries. All of whom feel the threat that lies in Chinas rise to dominance in the region.
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#26 ronthecivil

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 11:52 AM

There are 2 sides to both stories.

Chinese public are over reacting, by burning japanese cars, and not buying japanese goods. Somewhat premature...

But please understand. The Chinese people have been embarrased by the Japanese numerous times in history. They are their traditional rival. At this point, China has no choice but to act tough and not give up the land even if its 3 rocks as some of you morons are sayiing. "oh it's just 3 rocks, hand it over." no no no. Never.

If the Government does that, then its a slap in the face to the Chinese people, especially how the Japanese treated China people in the Sino Japaense wars. Both Countries don't want war, I don't even how Taiwan got involved. Anyways, I'm not taking any sides, 2 of these Islands were claimed to be Chinese since Acient China. Japan's claim is that in the 1890, they went to all 3 islands, once per year for 10 years then decided its theres. I don't know, I hope nothing happens. Japan and China depend on each other and they don't know it. Just like how the world is benefitiing from the Rise of China. I really hope nothing happens, I doubt anything will happen. Right now, China is acting tough by sending in patrol boats.


I wish it was simply about face but if the the people are really that worried about past injustice then shouldn't they be even more pissed off at their own people/government that have gone pretty bonkers starving the people out (the great leap forward) or destroying their history (the cultural revolution)????

I wish I doubted the Chinese government was secretly loving all this "patriotism" as it serves as a nice diversion from the true villain...
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