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Hoping Season is Cancelled

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#31 Heretic

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:38 PM

I'm starting to miss all the Luongo and Hodgson threads.....

Edited by Heretic, 01 November 2012 - 02:38 PM.

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#32 Aladeen

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:41 PM

Right now they are ..actually I am not saying they are but you sign a contract be man enough to carry thru with the contract signed.

Actually they're not, look it up and see they said no salary rollback on contracts in their last offer. I don't agree with not living up to what was agreed upon either but I'm sorry that just isn't the case in the NHL's last offer.

When they said there would be salary rollbacks I was completely and utterly against that and didn't support the owners when that was on the table. It is now not the case so there is no excuse for the players not to agree to what the NHL currently has on the table or something very close to that.

The NHLPA has a problem with how fast the NHL and NHLPA will get to that 50-50 split. The NHL wants it there next season, but the players propsal doesn't see it get to 50-50 before the CBA would expire (Which really isn't a 50-50 split now is it?)
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#33 elvis15

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:56 PM

NHLPA isn't budging caving like the NHL hoped they would

Fixed that for you.
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#34 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 03:07 PM

Not trying to be a dick but you

need to work on your paragraph

structure and your speeling. It makes

it kind of hard to understand what

you're typing. I get the impression that

you blame the owners for the lockout

and are fed up with the entire

situation, but TBH, it makes you sound

a bit petulant. Theirs plenty of blame to

go around.
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#35 elvis15

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 03:21 PM

...
Edit:
Players are not willing to take 50/50 and keep the current contracts because that was the NHLs LAST OFFER!

Actually, that's incorrect. While the owners did offer 50/50, their idea of protecting the players contracts was to take the money they were using to make them whole from the players' future share of HRR. They were just paying the players from the money they would have made anyways.

A direct salary rollback isn't the only way the owners can pay the players less. They can also use the escrow payments, which was actually closer to what they proposed to do to in order to cover the value of the player contracts in the next couple years. As I already mentioned, they were subtracting that money paid from the players' HRR share in the years following that, which still means the players would get less on their cheques.

Edited by elvis15, 01 November 2012 - 03:24 PM.

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#36 Langdon Algur

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 03:21 PM

Player agents might be smarmy, but asking players to go into contract talks without agents is like telling your buddy to go to court without a lawyer. They'd get slaughtered


good point. Problem is today's agents aren't acting like the lawyer defending your buddy for being arrested protesting, they are more like the lawyer chassing your buddy's ambulance and convincing him his injuries are worse then they are and he should sue.
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#37 thema

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 03:22 PM

Me, I hope that this season AND the next are cancelled. Think of the benefits to the NHL. Meanwhile I'm quite happy watching the KHL, Eliteserien, SM Liiga etc.
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#38 elvis15

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 03:34 PM

Me, I hope that this season AND the next are cancelled. Think of the benefits to the NHL. Meanwhile I'm quite happy watching the KHL, Eliteserien, SM Liiga etc.

What I get a kick out of is people suggesting the NHL just hire and/or draft replacement players. While I'm not sure where they'd come from, I'm sure the current NHL players would love to sign permanent contract in the AHL, ECHL, KHL, SEL, etc. and bring up the value of those leagues.

Imagine if the NHLPA approached the AHL and said that since the NHL wasn't willing to negotiate, they'd like to negotiate with them instead. The AHL would then become the best league in the world (based on player talent). Owners in the AHL could then start charging more for ticket prices and earn more on merchandise, allowing them to pay the players more than the typical AHL salary. They could start a draft and get the best players from junior too.

All the while, the NHL would only have access to players of substandard quality and people wouldn't pay for expensive tickets, sponsors would drop off and they'd have to try and overpay to get the new players coming up in the system to draw them away from the AHL.
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#39 theminister

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:23 PM

Actually, that's incorrect. While the owners did offer 50/50, their idea of protecting the players contracts was to take the money they were using to make them whole from the players' future share of HRR. They were just paying the players from the money they would have made anyways.

A direct salary rollback isn't the only way the owners can pay the players less. They can also use the escrow payments, which was actually closer to what they proposed to do to in order to cover the value of the player contracts in the next couple years. As I already mentioned, they were subtracting that money paid from the players' HRR share in the years following that, which still means the players would get less on their cheques.

Friggin this. How many times does it need to be explained? And they didn't even offer 50/50 because of all of the previous exclusions added in. With the make whole clause the owner's last offer was closer to 49-48-47-47-47-47-47.

Edited by theminister, 01 November 2012 - 04:23 PM.

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#40 Tystick

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:24 PM

How do you feel for the players, they are getting millions for playing a game!! Both sides are selfish IMO but if I had to support a side I would actually pick the owners, considering how many NHL teams lost money last year while there players made millions. That being said like the OP said the owners are doing it to themselves by allowing their GM's to sign players to insane contracts. Capitalism at it's worst.


You're right, they are both selfish. But what I was getting at is the players are willing to give in to negotiations while the owners aren't willing to budge, and I find that unbelievably selfish. The owners are basically saying take our deal, or no deal at all. I liked the 50/50 idea, and so did the players, but they wanted to do it in a fashion where the percentage of revenue goes down from 57% over a span of 6 years or whatever it was. Seems fair to me.

I just want hockey on my TV screen already...
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#41 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:53 PM

Why can't they all just be friends and get the season going..... This whole debacle isn't good for anyone


Greed. It's all about the money. Just like the rap game; do you think many of them would still do it if they couldn't become rich?
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#42 Drybone

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:28 PM

Me, I hope that this season AND the next are cancelled. Think of the benefits to the NHL. Meanwhile I'm quite happy watching the KHL, Eliteserien, SM Liiga etc.


I agree. Cancel the season we would only get a half baked season now anyways. We cant realistically start unti Jan now so we would only get a 40 game season .

The players, especially the ones down the pecking order cant afford this . The salary cap issues affect like 5-10% of the players at the top end of the pay scale.

Most of the players salaries are modest compared to the salary cap and it would make no difference whatsoever.

The union is basically representing players who make 4 million or more per year who would be affected.

Fehr is holding the other 90% of players who dont make enough to impact the cap who dont have a bunch of money in the bank . This hurts them way more than Sidney Crosby .
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#43 Nucks-4-Life

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:37 PM

I don't know if the season will be cancelled or not, but the owners can afford to do it, while the players can't.

The owners have leverage that the players don't, longevity.

The average NHL player plays for what, 10 years? Only about half of those years on big money contracts. Whereas the owners have been earning profit from these teams for the last 10-15 years (or more, depending on team), and none of the successful franchises are about to get sold. From the owner's point of view it makes sense to lose money on this season, but make up for it across the next 10.

The owners know they have leverage over the players, the players basically have none. Only thing that is going for them is if more stars start playing in Europe, and start making Kovalchuk-esque comments about staying overseas. As of right now we are only seeing the European or Russian stars doing this. I bet the owners will start listening more when they have the likes of Crosby, Stamkos, Toews, Richards, Nash, Sedin bro's, Staal bro's jumping ship.

If only for appearance purposes and to gain some leverage, Crosby should play overseas. He is not needed in the day to day dealing with the NHLPA, and it would send a message that the players have alternate options to the NHL.
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#44 Biznow

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:55 PM

Yah, sorry Aladeen, but you've had too much of the NHL's Kool-Aid if you think the salary rollback was gone in the NHL's last offer. It was re-worded, but still there. Remember, they're working with a PR guy whose motto is "It's not what you say, its what they hear..." Not even kidding, that is literally the motto at the top of his web page.
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#45 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 06:18 AM

I agree. Cancel the season we would only get a half baked season now anyways. We cant realistically start unti Jan now so we would only get a 40 game season .

Do you really believe that it would take two months for the league to start up if a deal were struck this weekend?
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#46 enterin

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 06:51 AM

A Positive spin to all of this is " I am in the money" look how much i am going to save this year!

Cant live with out food or shelter but I can sure live with out sports....
You have to ask your selves how would I survive an earthquake whats your first thought, after your families safety, food, water and shelter..
Would you be thinking about hockey? Honestly now.. I probably thinking not.. I am done feeding the owners..partners dont do this to each other .. Negotatiate, make up, shake hands for the sake of the best league, best players in the world.

Have a great day everyone!!
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#47 Aladeen

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:18 AM

Yah, sorry Aladeen, but you've had too much of the NHL's Kool-Aid if you think the salary rollback was gone in the NHL's last offer. It was re-worded, but still there. Remember, they're working with a PR guy whose motto is "It's not what you say, its what they hear..." Not even kidding, that is literally the motto at the top of his web page.

Please provide a link the rewording
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#48 poetica

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:47 AM

A Positive spin to all of this is " I am in the money" look how much i am going to save this year!

Cant live with out food or shelter but I can sure live with out sports....
You have to ask your selves how would I survive an earthquake whats your first thought, after your families safety, food, water and shelter..
Would you be thinking about hockey? Honestly now.. I probably thinking not.. I am done feeding the owners..partners dont do this to each other .. Negotatiate, make up, shake hands for the sake of the best league, best players in the world.

Have a great day everyone!!


Excellent point!

In fact, I think I'm going to send the money I would have normally spent on Canucks stuff during this season to the Red Cross to help people devastated by Hurricane Sandy. I strongly encourage others to do the same!
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Thanks for the memories, Luo! :'(

#49 poetica

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:24 AM

Please provide a link the rewording


I believe he may have been referring to the "Full explanation of NHL proposal" they have on their website, which despite still having the original post date has actually been altered repeatedly. (I know because I've gone to read parts of it repeatedly to fact check only to find portions changed or fine-tuned, probably for PR purposes.) You can find it here: http://www.nhl.com/i...s.htm?id=643572

I think this is the quote that best addresses this particular issue:

The NHL is not proposing that current SPCs be reduced, re-written or rolled back. Instead, the NHL's proposal retains all current Players' SPCs at their current face value for the duration of their terms, subject to the operation of the escrow mechanism in the same manner as it has worked under the expired CBA. (In other words, under the expired CBA, the compensation a Player received each year was either higher or lower than the face value of his contract depending upon Club-Player contracting levels and the level and growth rate of HRR.) Under the expired CBA, in two of the seven years Players were paid in excess of the face values of their SPCs and in five of those years they received less than their face values. That process would remain intact under the new CBA.


Under the last CBA, escrow was a way to ensure owners did not overpay. Each season the salary cap was projected based on the last season's numbers and projected growth. However, sometimes the reality and the projection did not match. So, a portion of every player's salary was held back in an escrow account. At the end of each season the final HRR number was determined and from that the actual cap (or players' share) for that season was determined. That number was then compared to what was actually paid out by the owners that season. If the owners overpaid the players' share, they were refunded the amount they overpaid (up to all of what was in escrow) from the escrow accounts. If the owners underpaid the players' share, or if there was some money left after refunding any overpayment to owners, the money from the escrow accounts was released to the players. So, under the last CBA escrow was basically a "make whole" clause for the owners.

Under this proposed agreement, however, the NHL wants to redefine escrow so they can call this new payback system "escrow" instead of a "rollback." Under their proposal, it won't be a question of who gets paid back to ensure fair share, it will be an absolute certainty that owners will be refunded the entire amount in the escrow accounts for years because while they pretend to pay out contracts at face value, they are actually being counted against a significantly lowered players' share percentage than the contracts were negotiated against. So, before the actual revenue growth determined whether or not players got face value of their contracts. Under this proposal, players are guaranteed to not get face value.

It's a dog and pony show, pure and simple.

Edited by poetica, 02 November 2012 - 11:24 AM.

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Thanks for the memories, Luo! :'(

#50 RAMBUTANS

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:31 AM

No worries, from what i'm hearing this season and most probably the next will be canned.

Get some hobby guys, this will be for the long haul.
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#51 ccc44

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:11 PM

How do you feel for the players, they are getting millions for playing a game!! Both sides are selfish IMO but if I had to support a side I would actually pick the owners, considering how many NHL teams lost money last year while there players made millions. That being said like the OP said the owners are doing it to themselves by allowing their GM's to sign players to insane contracts. Capitalism at it's worst.

How can you feel for the billionaires ?
Half the teams in the league are making money while the others have a combination of poor marketing and poor location choices for a NHL team meaning that these owners made a poor investment in buying a team in a bad market and dont seem to know how to market there teams properly to build interest in there team ,Just like any other business they would invest in 2 of the most important things are location and marketing

Its time to fix the real issues and stop looking for the bandaid to there issues and stop trying to keep taking from the employees

Edited by ccc44, 03 November 2012 - 12:16 PM.

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#52 BCNeil

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 03:02 PM

Actually the real villian here is the player agents. These are the people that are convincing the players to ask for larger and largers contracts and if they don't get it that means the team they play for doesn't respect them so they should leave. The NHL would be a better place without player agents.


No. You are way off here. Most of the competitive teams pay close to the salary cap for total salaries.

If the Cap is 70m. As far as a team like the Canucks is concerned is they are going to spend that amount.
How this gets split amongst the players on the team is irrelevant.
As the cap grows from overall revenue increases, players salaries will always go up to the new cap.

What players agents do, is jockey for what percent of that cap their client should get.
Teams may want to pay individual players less than they want. So they will have money for other players.
For instance, if we re-signed Edler for 2m less a year that he asks for. Its not cause the owners are cheap, or they want more money for themselves. As they are still going to end up paying to the cap.
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#53 nwdivision

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 03:03 PM

I agree. Cancel the season we would only get a half baked season now anyways. We cant realistically start unti Jan now so we would only get a 40 game season.

Do you really believe that it would take two months for the league to start up if a deal were struck this weekend?

Should the league start in January, it wouldn't be a 40 game season. It would be similar to the 94-95 season which started in Jan. 95 and was 48 games and my guess would 56 games.
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#54 gmen81

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 04:42 PM

No worries, from what i'm hearing this season and most probably the next will be canned.

Get some hobby guys, this will be for the long haul.



Is that so...?
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