Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

[Report] Canucks MIGHT retire Pavel Bure's #10


hockeyville88

Recommended Posts

A common misconception there Deb. Some us simply aren't influenced by emotional childhood hero worship memories regarding Bure. Some of us were actually adults when he played here. Most that I know in my age group agree that Bure wasn't here long enough to warrant retiring his number. It has nothing to do with his talent. The issue is his lacking length of service and significant contributions such as cup victories and community service.

Although I do agree that attempting to degrade those that have had their numbers retired in an attempt to justify retiring Bure/s number is pretty sad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I stopped reading there. Quote anything I said that is a lie. How about arguing my points. The largest of which being Bure didn't play enough games here to warrant retiring his number.

My previous post was full of facts. Bure hit top ten in the league scoring race twice in his time here. Both Naslund and Henrik did that three consecutive seasons. I've never once said Bure lacks talent or wasn't exciting . I simply question whether that's enough reason to retire his number. Ignorance is ignoring facts. Which appears to be your department.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My belief is that retiring a jersey....should be reserved for people who go above and beyond their duty, even if their duty is done very well. Retiring a shirt should be a representation of appreciation for what someone has done for a team, a city, an organization, a community, and the sport AS A WHOLE. NOT someone who goes through the motions because their agent tells them to, or their job description requires it.

So, by those standards, I'm expecting Fin's jersey retirement announcement soon?

Honestly, Bure was touted a superstar in the NHL for a reason....and you're right....it wasn't for any off ice contributions that he was making. Leaving only his brilliance on ice to capture that status, right? People can say what they want (although, none of us really has the full, behind the scenes story), but there is NO denying his talent. Anyone trying to do that just makes themself look foolish. He is truly deserving of the recognition he's currently getting. And to suggest he "liked" being a superstar completely goes against his actions. He hated the fishbowl and that was no secret. He also has moved off into obscurity vs sticking on the scene flogging himself, which also proves his desire for privacy and to simply lead his life. Nothing wrong with that.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Didn't see it posted, so thought I'd share an interesting article I read this morning:

The problem with Pavel is really our problem. He was just being himself. We wanted him to be more.

Fourteen years after holding out on the Vancouver Canucks to force a trade, Pavel Bure’s impact here is reflected by his first-name recognition. Say "Pavel" on Canada’s West Coast and everyone knows who you mean.

The Russian Rocket. Fabulous player. Shame about the person. Wish he’d stayed longer. Or not.

One of the most prolific goal-scorers in National Hockey League history, Bure will be inducted Monday into the Hockey Hall of Fame in Toronto despite a career shortened by knee injuries.

Bure failed a physical in 2003 and retired as a New York Ranger at age 32. He finished with 437 goals in 702 games for a strike rate of .623 that is third all-time behind only Mike Bossy’s .762 and Mario Lemieux’s .754.

Bure played 24 fewer NHL games than Cam Neely and 45 more than Bobby Orr — other Hall-of-Famers whose careers were halted by injuries. Bure’s elevation to official hockey immortality was purely a statistical argument. Did he play enough games and score enough goals to qualify for the Hall of Fame? The selection committee, co-chaired by former Canuck coach and general manager Pat Quinn, decided Bure deserved induction this year alongside Joe Sakic, Mats Sundin and Adam Oates.

It’s a sparkling class.

Bure’s story is being retold in various places: the Canucks’ heist of Bure in the sixth round of the 1989 draft (after the team picked Brett Hauer, before they chose Jim Revenberg) due to head scout Mike Penny’s savvy homework; Bure’s electric debut after showing up on the Canucks’ doorstep in 1991; his explosive speed and five 50-goal seasons and his debilitating battle against injuries.

It’s a nice story, a simple one.

But it’s a little more complicated out here where Bure spent seven seasons, grudgingly as it turned out, and never returned the love and adoration showered upon him in a city where fans have not seen another Canuck like him, before or since.

When the franchise celebrated its 40th anniversary a couple of years ago, they retired Markus Naslund’s jersey and christened a "Ring of Honour" by celebrating four other famous Canucks. Bure was not among them.

Canucks management, led by Bure’s former agent, Mike Gillis, asked the Russian over dinner in Miami if he was interested in being honoured in Vancouver. Bure said no.

You may recall that he once claimed to a reporter, while walking out on the final year of his Canucks’ contract: "I love the fans here and I love the city. I want to spend some time here in the summer. It’s a beautiful place and the fans have treated me really well. I really want to thank them for the seven years they supported me."

But Bure never returned to Vancouver, except as a visiting player. He said this week he hasn’t been to Vancouver in a decade. This isn’t surprising because he spent his summers as a Canuck in Los Angeles. And as for thanking the fans, his reluctance to be honoured by the organization shouts volumes. Given what we know, it would embarrassing to phone Bure now and coax from him a repeat of that expedient pledge from 14 years ago.

Bure had one close friend on the Canucks, Gino Odjick, never invested emotionally in the community and, according to The Province, first asked for a trade in 1993 because the team wouldn’t renegotiate his rookie contract.

He was upset about false reports that he threatened to hold out before the 1994 Stanley Cup Final, was understandably angry the Canucks tried to pay him in Canadian dollars instead of American ones, was frustrated by the team’s refusal to adhere to a lockout clause in his contract, and upset that Quinn wasn’t present when Bure showed up to sign a $24.5-million US, five-year contract that made him one of the five highest-paid hockey players in the world.

And, of course, the team kept promising to trade him and wouldn’t.

"Every time I asked to be traded, they always agreed to," Bure complained to a reporter after his February 1999 move to the Florida Panthers. "Nobody ever said: ‘We’re not going to trade you.’ But they always lied."

Yes, shame on the Canucks.

While adored by fans as he became one of the richest players in hockey, Bure had to suffer through a four-year stretch that saw the Canucks play 10 rounds of playoffs and get within one win of the Stanley Cup. Bure played four playoff games after he left Vancouver.

It was just business to Bure, numbers. Fair enough. But shame on us, then, for loving him and expecting anything more from what turned out to be a one-way relationship.

There was never an issue about Bure’s breathtaking speed and talent and hunger to score goals.

No one who saw him rocket through the Winnipeg Jets on his debut at the Pacific Coliseum on Nov. 5, 1991 will forget it.

"If everybody I’ve met since that game who said they were there were actually in the building, the crowd would have been 250,000," Quinn said this week. "He was lightning in a bottle. He just seemed to have fun out there. He was a hard worker. His training was second to no one. He wanted to be the best scorer and certainly was the best we had on our team."

It seems ironic that Quinn, cast by some as the miserly villain who victimized Bure and helped drive him away, strongly supports the player’s inclusion in the Hall of Fame. He believes Bure wanted out of Vancouver because he was private person who didn’t like the spotlight and wanted to be able to "disappear" when he left the rink.

"I don’t know that he had an affinity for any organization," Quinn said. "I always liked Pavel. I liked his attitude and I liked the way he played. I wish he had opened up a little more (for the public) but that was not who he was. I can’t blame him for that."

Maybe we should all strive to be so generous. The same, of course, could be said for Bure, who has never expressed regret about how things ended in Vancouver nor even hinted at a desire for reconciliation. He seems content with the way things stand.

Bure is the most exciting player and most divisive player in Canucks history. He scored enough goals to earn a place in the Hall of Fame. In Toronto.

But to be honoured here, numbers aren’t enough. When the Canucks retired jerseys belonging to Stan Smyl, Trevor Linden and Markus Naslund — all of them selfless captains — it was the bonds between franchise and player, between player and town, that were as celebrated as lofty statistics.

Bure showed up when he had to, left when he could. He always played hard for his team. But 14 years after Bure left and never looked back, what is there to celebrate about his relationship with the Canucks or the community?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

'Blah, blah, blah, community service!'

I know some media and a few fans here really care about contributions to the community or where a guy spend his summers, but honestly... Did anyone care back when he was scoring all those dazzling goals?

You want to talk about community service? How about him putting all those butts in the seats and giving the community some top-notch entertainment? You know, HIS JOB? You want to talk about legit reasons to honour a player? Ty Cobb: Biggest ahole on earth, but his jersey still hangs up alongside other Tiger greats. Skill talks, and Bure, as vilified as he seems to be here by some, is no freakin. Ty Cobb.

As for where he spends his summers or retirement, um, that's kindof his business. The Sedins, Naslund, Luongo, and almost every player out there doesn't label vancity a summer home, but with Bure that's a problem? Please.

Here's why these people have a problem with Bure: He's Russian.

Face it. If he were Canadian in these exact same circumstances, nobody would have had a problem with him and his jersey might've hung up long ago. If he were Swedish, we'd have to think long and hard. But because he's Russian, well, gee...

Time for this town to grow up a bit. More mature franchises have learned to be classy, take the high road, and respect the players who deserve it. Chicago buried the hatchet with Bobby Hull. Montreal with Roy. Taking the high road is a sign of a mature franchise and sports city.

Doing this will help shed the low-class, riot-inducing, but self-righteous (based on nothing) image that we have around the league. 'Help.'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wondering if IMac himself gave a frack about 'English is not my language' Pavel Bure not engaging with our public enough when he was busy creating an 'easy to remember, but who cares if he even likes it,' Russian Rocket nickname for the dazzling superstar?

Russian Rocket. Kinda says it all doesn't it?

The 'Not Canadian' Rocket that should be forever shunned by those who cannot understand him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The way I see it, there were several reasons to retire the Smyl, Linden, and Naslunds numbers. Length of service, high level of play, community service, long term captains, franchise records. I've only seen one reason to retire Bures. High level of play. I just don't see that as enough of a reason for a guy that only played a little more than 400 games here. You see I'm not ignoring anything. I'm looking at the overall picture of Bure's time here. Other than talent, I don't see much on the checklist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think anyone can argue that he was a great, exciting player who should be honored for his contributions to the game. I guess the real question just comes down to whether he should be honored as a player or a Canuck specifically. I have a feeling even he would prefer the former.

Is there even a point to honor a man who has said he doesn't want to be honored here?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both played more than double the number games here plus there's Pearson, Art Ross and Hart.

I'm not ignoring anything. Actually I have mentioned his 60 goals in this thread....

/topic/331886-should-bures-10-be-retiredbe-in-the-ring-of-honour/page__st__210">http://forum.canucks...r/page__st__210

The way I see it, there were several reasons to retire the Smyl, Linden, and Naslunds numbers. Length of service, high level of play, community service, long term captains, franchise records. I've only seen one reason to retire Bures. High level of play. I just don't see that as enough of a reason for a guy that only played a little more than 400 games here. You see I'm not ignoring anything. I'm looking at the overall picture of Bure's time here. Other than talent, I don't see much on the checklist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

- Best player we have ever had.

- Perhaps saved our Franchise.

- Only Calder Trophy winner we have had.

- Only player we have ever had to score 60 Goals (Not to mention he did it twice)

- The First Superstar we have ever had.

- 1st True Canuck inducted into the HHOF, Sundin doesn't count, Neely doesn't count, Messier doesn't really count (His time here didn't really add to his HHOF status). Please Correct me if I am wrong but I do believe that he is the first.

- He was apart of the leadership, and loved the city, it's not like he was just collecting his money and that's why he played here, obviously that's part of it but it is also because he loved playing here and loved the fans.

- He's a generational player, someone that doesn't come around often, and a player you are lucky to have.

- (This one is important) He inspired a ton of new hockey fans, yes it is Vancouver but many many more people came to love this game & this team because of him, he's the reason they became fans.

- He saved our Franchise: (I explained it better in another thread a few months back)

And Finally:

Does it not make sense to honor the best player you have ever had in the history of your franchise, who is a Hockey Hall of Famer that is most recognized with your franchise, and that played most of his hall of fame career in your city, helped attract fans long term to your organization and brought the franchise stability and legitimized it as one of the better organizations in the league with the highest honor possible?

Does it not make sense to have to best player you have ever had in the history of your franchise who did all of that stuff, honoured with his Jersey going up in the Rafters? I think so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your reasoning is poor. Many players have played far more games with the team than Bure has, such as Salo and Snepts and Ohlund. I don't see that as any sort of reasoning for retiring a players number. Bure did far more in his time here than all of those players did combined in their games here. And community service? That has absolutely nothing to do with the team or their play. Dan cloutier played here a while and had a lot of community service, should we retire his number? And long-term captaincy also means little. If you can recall, much of the fan-base would often complain that Naslund was not an adequate captain, yet there his number is in the rafters.

Bure may not have played long here but he did many things that a Canuck has since to do on an extremely consistent level, and was part of one of the greatest teams we have ever put together. You say "other than talent", yet talent is what wins hockey game, nothing else you have mentioned wins hockey games. If you are in game 7 of the stanley cup finals, nothing else matters. Not community service, not how long you've been on the team or been the captain, the bottom line is winning, and if you'd rather put together a team that is more concerned about other issues, then go ahead, but I would ultimately argue that YOU in fact are not looking at the big picture and that hockey is a game of skill and winning, and Bure embodied all of that to a vastly excelled rate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You'll have a tough time convincing anybody but the blind with the "saving the franchise" ntion. Attendance took a slight increase when he arrived and declined evry year untill GM place opened. A shiney new arena drew a big croud but again attendnce declined every year until Naslund became captain. If anything it was Naslund that saved this franchise as the year before he became captain there was talk about moving it elsewhere.

Here's a link to Canuck attendance.

http://www.hockeydb....ph.php?tmi=8756

Link to comment
Share on other sites

'Blah, blah, blah, community service!'

I know some media and a few fans here really care about contributions to the community or where a guy spend his summers, but honestly... Did anyone care back when he was scoring all those dazzling goals?

You want to talk about community service? How about him putting all those butts in the seats and giving the community some top-notch entertainment? You know, HIS JOB? You want to talk about legit reasons to honour a player? Ty Cobb: Biggest ahole on earth, but his jersey still hangs up alongside other Tiger greats. Skill talks, and Bure, as vilified as he seems to be here by some, is no freakin. Ty Cobb.

As for where he spends his summers or retirement, um, that's kindof his business. The Sedins, Naslund, Luongo, and almost every player out there doesn't label vancity a summer home, but with Bure that's a problem? Please.

Here's why these people have a problem with Bure: He's Russian.

Face it. If he were Canadian in these exact same circumstances, nobody would have had a problem with him and his jersey might've hung up long ago. If he were Swedish, we'd have to think long and hard. But because he's Russian, well, gee...

Time for this town to grow up a bit. More mature franchises have learned to be classy, take the high road, and respect the players who deserve it. Chicago buried the hatchet with Bobby Hull. Montreal with Roy. Taking the high road is a sign of a mature franchise and sports city.

Doing this will help shed the low-class, riot-inducing, but self-righteous (based on nothing) image that we have around the league. 'Help.'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If length of service is a factor, then i need to bring up Pat Lafontaine again. His jersey hangs up in Buffalo, yet he played and accomplished less for Buffalo than what Bure did for us.

Yes, you can say that what's good enough for the Sabres shouldn't be good enough for us, but what is that based on? Buffalo is our sister franchise, both are cupless, both have a persecution complex, and both have a group of insane hockey knowledgable fans. The teams are indeed comparable. And that reflects in the jersey retirement standards.

Buffalo has six jerseys hanging up. The entire French connection line, Danny Gare, Tim Horton (who played only two seasons for them) and Lafontaine. Did community service play a role in any of those retired jerseys? No. Did length of service play a role? For two out of six, no. So what were the common factors in determining who got their names hung up?

Factor one: They were all great players.

Factor two: They were all players who should have been honoured for their greatness.

Factor three: They were all players who united the city in praise during their great years played in that city.

The exception in Buffalo's case is Tim Horton, who is similar to the Ray Bourque in Colorado retirement.

You'll find that while length of service, games played, is a requirement, it is not a major one compared to the three listed above. Hence, the Lafontaine jersey hanging up in Buffalo.

You'll also find that while community service, a long-standing myth standard for greatness in Vancouver, is not a typical measurement for greatness for any franchise in any sport. While it's a bonus if he's a really nice guy, if he fits in the more important criteria for greatness in that franchise, then he should very well be honoured by that franchise. And honestly, the community service aspect is something for us to say in self-serving pride while we celebrate the so-so numbers that we already hung up. It's a factor, sure, but not an important one in a franchise who is setting the standard for greatness higher with every passing season.

Bure is a hall of famer, unlike any of our other retired jersey names. He is one of the best scorers of all time. Bure owns enough frachise records to be considered a great Canuck. Perhaps some of those records won't be broken. He brought the city together while we admired with awe. Before Bure: So-so attendance. After Bure: Sellouts. It was Linden's team, yes, but we were all watching Bure.

This player deserves our respect and we should have #10 retired to show this respect. Cheers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Boy our Attendance was a bumpy road.

I'm just expanding on what Quinn said, I share his opinion that he was a huge factor in the team being able to make it throught those tough years.

Imagine if Bure was never here, the Attendence may have just plummeted earlier and there would have been nothing to atleast keep it up enough to last through the tough financial times.

Oh and BTW you can give the credit to GM Place for bolstering our attendence, but do you think we would have been able to get that Arena put up without a superstar like Bure? ;)

Highly unlikely. So that just goes right back to Bure.

And aside from this one point of many I made, I feel many of the other's including his impact on people becoming fans (which is still felt today) and being the best player we have ever had are 2 great reason's to add onto why #10 should be raised.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think anyone can argue that he was a great, exciting player who should be honored for his contributions to the game. I guess the real question just comes down to whether he should be honored as a player or a Canuck specifically. I have a feeling even he would prefer the former.

Is there even a point to honor a man who has said he doesn't want to be honored here?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If length of service is a factor, then i need to bring up Pat Lafontaine again. His jersey hangs up in Buffalo, yet he played and accomplished less for Buffalo than what Bure did for us.

Yes, you can say that what's good enough for the Sabres shouldn't be good enough for us, but what is that based on? Buffalo is our sister franchise, both are cupless, both have a persecution complex, and both have a group of insane hockey knowledgable fans. The teams are indeed comparable. And that reflects in the jersey retirement standards.

Buffalo has six jerseys hanging up. The entire French connection line, Danny Gare, Tim Horton (who played only two seasons for them) and Lafontaine. Did community service play a role in any of those retired jerseys? No. Did length of service play a role? For two out of six, no. So what were the common factors in determining who got their names hung up?

Factor one: They were all great players.

Factor two: They were all players who should have been honoured for their greatness.

Factor three: They were all players who united the city in praise during their great years played in that city.

The exception in Buffalo's case is Tim Horton, who is similar to the Ray Bourque in Colorado retirement.

You'll find that while length of service, games played, is a requirement, it is not a major one compared to the three listed above. Hence, the Lafontaine jersey hanging up in Buffalo.

You'll also find that while community service, a long-standing myth standard for greatness in Vancouver, is not a typical measurement for greatness for any franchise in any sport. While it's a bonus if he's a really nice guy, if he fits in the more important criteria for greatness in that franchise, then he should very well be honoured by that franchise. And honestly, the community service aspect is something for us to say in self-serving pride while we celebrate the so-so numbers that we already hung up. It's a factor, sure, but not an important one in a franchise who is setting the standard for greatness higher with every passing season.

Bure is a hall of famer, unlike any of our other retired jersey names. He is one of the best scorers of all time. Bure owns enough frachise records to be considered a great Canuck. Perhaps some of those records won't be broken. He brought the city together while we admired with awe. Before Bure: So-so attendance. After Bure: Sellouts. It was Linden's team, yes, but we were all watching Bure.

This player deserves our respect and we should have #10 retired to show this respect. Cheers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem is, of course, the Buffalo Sabres aren't idiots. But let's put their collective hockey wisdom aside and trust in the wisdom of Baggins, right? And the wisdom regarding regarding the Lafontaine jersey retirement was what? 'It is a mystery to me' I see. Well, Sherlock, i think i've solved it for you already. See: Three major factors already listed above.

These criteria are very high indeed.

As for who 'saved the franchise', well it was the Arthur Griffiths, of course, who financed the building of GM Place. He took on more than he could handle, bringing in the NBA, etc., but nobody can deny that he was a hero for this town.

However, would GM Place have gotten the go-ahead without a superstar golden ticket onboard? It can be said that GM Place was the house that Bure built. Bure was the highlight reel. He was the reason people around the league went to Canuck road games. Hell, he was the Canucks for a significant period of the franchise's history.

Certainly he did as much as Naslund did. It's interesting that some label Naslund a 'team saviour' after the Messier era now when in his prime years he received much of the same criticism as Bure. Not a real leader? Vacant personality? etc. Remember that? When Naslund had his jersey hung up, that opened the door for Bure. Bure had done more for this team in a shorter amount of time than Naslund ever did. Certainly that should be respected and honoured with a jersey retirement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, by those standards, I'm expecting Fin's jersey retirement announcement soon?

Honestly, Bure was touted a superstar in the NHL for a reason....and you're right....it wasn't for any off ice contributions that he was making. Leaving only his brilliance on ice to capture that status, right? People can say what they want (although, none of us really has the full, behind the scenes story), but there is NO denying his talent. Anyone trying to do that just makes themself look foolish. He is truly deserving of the recognition he's currently getting. And to suggest he "liked" being a superstar completely goes against his actions. He hated the fishbowl and that was no secret. He also has moved off into obscurity vs sticking on the scene flogging himself, which also proves his desire for privacy and to simply lead his life. Nothing wrong with that.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...