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[Report] Canucks MIGHT retire Pavel Bure's #10


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#331 shiznak

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:23 AM

Pfft, having the stats isn't everything and shouldn't be a reason of having your jersey retired. Ken Daneyko isn't what you called a superstar or brought excitment to a team, but his number is retired by the Devils, because he holds the franchise record for games played as a Devil.

Naslund's number is up in the rafter because he has both the stats and enough games played, not to mention his off ice work in the community. Bure on the other hand, just has the stats.

I'm pretty sure you won't see Kovalchuk's number being retired at the MTS center in Winnipeg, when he's done playing.

Edited by shiznak, 20 November 2012 - 12:24 AM.

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#332 bure's triple deke

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:38 AM

**Because I didn't wanna start my own thread on an already running topic, here's my take on Bure's HOF induction via my blog: http://burestriplede...ger-and-dj.html**

As far as his number being retired here... I'm all for it, but I recognize and understand the reasons why not. I'm torn because as far as the Canucks' unofficial requirements go for jersey retirement (as delineated by Gillis when Nazzy had his retired: on-ice and off-ice contribution), Bure simply doesn't qualify. If it's off-ice character and relationship with the franchise that's equally important, then holding out for a trade automatically disqualifies you.

On the other hand though, I'm not sure that the Canucks need to hold this firmly to the off-ice thing. Sure, it'd be great and it certainly helps your case.. It's why we love our current Canucks (the Sedins' multi-million dollar donation to Children's Hospital, Hamhuis' recent donation and Bieksa's charity game) that much more. But I don't think an obvious absence of it should exclude you from consideration.

I don't know if this has already been brought up in this thread (not gonna look through all 11 pages of it lol), but the obvious parallel here is Patrick Roy and the Canadiens. If Montreal, the most fabled franchise in the history of the NHL, can look past their off-ice differences with Roy and retire his number for the sheer brilliance of his on-ice performance, then I don't see why the Canucks can't do the same.

Anyway, not gonna lie.. I mostly posted just so I could get the link to my blog article in here, so please read that too lol.

Edited by bure's triple deke, 20 November 2012 - 12:38 AM.

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#333 Baggins

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:29 AM

Well I wasn't around in the Islanders' dynasty, but from the sounds of it, Goring should be in the HOF. Though it's also based on more than just numbers/awards.

IMO, the HOF is always going to be questionable after not inducting Pat Burns knowing he won't be around for much longer.


You could liken Goring to Kesler. The total package. Good speed, put up points, hit, and great on the PK. The difference is he just didn't take penalties doing it. The Isles had a very good team for several years but kept getting knocked out in the second or third round. Trading for Goring was certainly a factor in winning those four consecutive cups as he really improved the Isles PK.
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#334 Baggins

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:11 AM

**Because I didn't wanna start my own thread on an already running topic, here's my take on Bure's HOF induction via my blog: http://burestriplede...ger-and-dj.html**

As far as his number being retired here... I'm all for it, but I recognize and understand the reasons why not. I'm torn because as far as the Canucks' unofficial requirements go for jersey retirement (as delineated by Gillis when Nazzy had his retired: on-ice and off-ice contribution), Bure simply doesn't qualify. If it's off-ice character and relationship with the franchise that's equally important, then holding out for a trade automatically disqualifies you.

On the other hand though, I'm not sure that the Canucks need to hold this firmly to the off-ice thing. Sure, it'd be great and it certainly helps your case.. It's why we love our current Canucks (the Sedins' multi-million dollar donation to Children's Hospital, Hamhuis' recent donation and Bieksa's charity game) that much more. But I don't think an obvious absence of it should exclude you from consideration.

I don't know if this has already been brought up in this thread (not gonna look through all 11 pages of it lol), but the obvious parallel here is Patrick Roy and the Canadiens. If Montreal, the most fabled franchise in the history of the NHL, can look past their off-ice differences with Roy and retire his number for the sheer brilliance of his on-ice performance, then I don't see why the Canucks can't do the same.

Anyway, not gonna lie.. I mostly posted just so I could get the link to my blog article in here, so please read that too lol.


I don't think any one thing needs to be carved in stone to have a number retired. But I do think there should be several reasons to get the honor.

Roy with Montreal....
11 seasons
Calder trophy
2 Conne Smythe Trophies
4 William Jennings Trophies
3 Vezina Trophies
2 Stanley Cups

I'd say that although Roy had a bitter parting with Montreal he also has a considerable number of reasons to have his number retired. In both of the cup wins in Montreal he was the playoff MVP. Although Montreal retires numbers like a Pez dispenser I'd have a tough time arguing against Roys number going up. Actually, the only possible argument would be how he left. That's certainly offset by his accomplishments as a Hab.
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#335 lowest common denominator

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:52 AM

Motivation? Just giving my opinion. And I watched Bure play through the eyes of adulthood as opposed to those of the starstruck childs hero worship. I'd wager most of those here in favor of retiring Bure's number never actually saw him play or have vague memories of childhood. But that's beside the point. To me 488 (ftfy) games isn't enough of a contribution. So how about sticking to facts DS.


Well ian or whatever your name is, that is a wager you would lose. I wasn't a child watching Bure play but it did take a few years for the truth to come out regarding the circumstances of his arrival in Canada and his mishandling at the hands of the canucks.

Facts are all out there now, if you care to recognize them.
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#336 lowest common denominator

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:07 AM

Actually "DS", you don't know anything about what I thought of Naslund getting his number retired, do you?


How many points Bure got, or how many games he played, or his impact as a player is of no consequence to my point of view. The fact is that Bure did not really care about being a Canuck. He was interested in playing in the NHL, and Vancouver was where he happened to wind up, but he did not want to be here. If he had his way, he would have been out of Vancouver well before he played the 488 games for which he did suit up.

Perhaps he had valid grievances against the team management, but this does not change the fact that he did not want to be here.

For this reason, I do not believe that Bure should get his number retired. RoH is more than enough.

regards,
G.


Tony? Is that you? I thought this was the fan zone not the media zone? Controlling the message is tres important.

I don't know what you thought of Nazzys retirement and don't really care. Thousands of people, including me and Naslund, didn't get it. Now, looking back, its seeems like even more of a charade than it was.

Why was it that Bure did not want to be here? As has been discussed, Bure was manipulated and grossly mismanaged by the canucks before he even set foot in Canada. After that, Quinn tried to rip him off for 33% of his contract by switching US/Can $. I wouldn't want to play here either if any of that happened to me.

It could also be argued that, because of this negligent fraudulence, no bonafied star players are interested in playing for Vancouver. Who have we signed since Bure left that can be considered star material? Besides over the hill guys looking for one last payday?
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#337 lowest common denominator

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:12 AM

You could liken Goring to Kesler.


You could, but you would look rather foolish.

Love how your argument has gone from

"Bure doesn't deserve it" to
"Bure has only played 400 games" to
"Bure isn't Bobby Orr"

(1 of these 3 statements is actually true! You get 2 guesses as to which one)

*GASP* He wasn't Bobby Orr???? STOP THE PRESS!!!!

Edited by scottiecanuck, 20 November 2012 - 10:17 AM.

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#338 Riviera82

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:26 AM

Actually "DS", you don't know anything about what I thought of Naslund getting his number retired, do you?


How many points Bure got, or how many games he played, or his impact as a player is of no consequence to my point of view. The fact is that Bure did not really care about being a Canuck. He was interested in playing in the NHL, and Vancouver was where he happened to wind up, but he did not want to be here. If he had his way, he would have been out of Vancouver well before he played the 428 games for which he did suit up.

Perhaps he had valid grievances against the team management, but this does not change the fact that he did not want to be here.

For this reason, I do not believe that Bure should get his number retired. RoH is more than enough.

regards,
G.


All the more reason to retire his number I would say. For a guy who wanted nothing to do with this team he sure did a damn good job here. Just imagine also if this team's management hadn't screwed him around from day 1. Things probably would've ended up a lot different.
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#339 Drybone

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:21 PM

Pavel Bure wanted NOTHING more than to play in Vancouver.

He could have easily stayed in Russia and re entered the draft later. Instead he gets MARRIED to some women he doesnt know all to get a US visa.............all so that Brian Burke can leave him stranded in California for 10 days.

Then Quinn makes him pay his own Russian transfer cash. A move that is outright embarrassing for the Canucks organization.

Bure does everything asked of him, including winning the Calder then scoring 60 goals twice. Quinn refuses to give him a raise until finally Bure asks to be traded out of there.

Bure was USED and Abused by the canucks and yet he still played for us for many years until the team was so TRASHED he couldnt take it anymore.

Linden was trashed, messier and keenan were running the team. Players were all sold off like Courtnall and Ronning.

The guy couldnt take it anymore. Pavel Bure is generational talent we may never see again . He spent from age 20 to age 28 in a Canuck uniform. The best years of his professional life.

If we had treated him like we treat the Sedins, he would have NEVER left.
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#340 Baggins

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:53 PM

You could, but you would look rather foolish.

Love how your argument has gone from

"Bure doesn't deserve it" to
"Bure has only played 400 games" to
"Bure isn't Bobby Orr"

(1 of these 3 statements is actually true! You get 2 guesses as to which one)

*GASP* He wasn't Bobby Orr???? STOP THE PRESS!!!!


Actually I said he doesn't deserve it because he only played 428 games here. Which means the first two are true. Do try to keep up.

I don't recall comparing Bure to Orr but I'll humor you. Orr won 2 Art Ross, 8 Norris, 3 Hart, 2 Conne Smyth, 1 Pearson and 2 Stanley Cups. Bure won none of those. So no, Bure truly isn't Bobby Orr. Feel better?
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#341 Gollumpus

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:20 PM

Tony? Is that you? I thought this was the fan zone not the media zone? Controlling the message is tres important.


No, it's John Cerruti. Is that you, Casper Jr?


I don't know what you thought of Nazzys retirement and don't really care.


And I do not care about your opinion on the matter either. See? We're establishing so much common ground here. And people are saying that you're a "douche". Well, I'd never say that.


Why was it that Bure did not want to be here? As has been discussed, Bure was manipulated and grossly mismanaged by the canucks before he even set foot in Canada. After that, Quinn tried to rip him off for 33% of his contract by switching US/Can $. I wouldn't want to play here either if any of that happened to me.


Yup. I have acknowledged the possibility of such in my posts. This must be an understanding or retention issue on your part. This does not change that, to my mind, Bure did not want to be here regardless of the situation with management.


It could also be argued that, because of this negligent fraudulence, no bonafied star players are interested in playing for Vancouver. Who have we signed since Bure left that can be considered star material? Besides over the hill guys looking for one last payday?


Hamhuis ain't bad. Sundin, albeit he was past his prime, liked the money enough to come here (sorta'). Willie Mitchell is still well thought of, by some.

Yeah, there might be something to your perspective on this. On the other hand, have you looked at other, related issues which could affect a UFA choice on whether or not to sign here? I'm sure you have, but I'll note some of them anyways for the rest of the folks reading this:

a.) Who would he be playing with, or behind? Vancouver has had a number of decent 1st lines or top d-men for the past while. Yeah, there wasn't a Suter or Weber in the bunch, but they weren't that bad, and just because a guy is a UFA doesn't mean he will automatically sign with the team of your choice. Shocking, isn't it?

b.) What about cap hit? maybe the Canucks couldn't afford what the player was asking? (also, see d)

c.) Travel schedule. This can be a real grind.

d.) Maybe they didn't like some of the personalities on the team, or the team ownership/management.

The coaching situation was a bit weird after Quinn left the job in '94. There was what, four coaches in five years? And some of those were with Keenan. Him being here probably caused a lot of players to think twice about signing here.

Maybe some UFA's were turned off by the rather tight belts of the Canucks' ownership during these times.


In any event, working on the assumption that Quinn was a bad, bad man, he hasn't been here since 1997. Are you suggesting that UFA's are not signing here because of Pat Quinn? Gee, Harold Ballard was a S.o.B. Does this mean that players don't want to sign with the Leafs, even though he's been dead for over 20 years?

Yeah, you might be on to something.


regards,
G.
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#342 Baggins

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:27 PM

All the more reason to retire his number I would say. For a guy who wanted nothing to do with this team he sure did a damn good job here. Just imagine also if this team's management hadn't screwed him around from day 1. Things probably would've ended up a lot different.


Well Bure did love his paycheck and there was only one way to get a good one.
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#343 Baggins

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:08 PM

Pavel Bure wanted NOTHING more than to play in Vancouver.

He could have easily stayed in Russia and re entered the draft later. Instead he gets MARRIED to some women he doesnt know all to get a US visa.............all so that Brian Burke can leave him stranded in California for 10 days.

Then Quinn makes him pay his own Russian transfer cash. A move that is outright embarrassing for the Canucks organization.

Bure does everything asked of him, including winning the Calder then scoring 60 goals twice. Quinn refuses to give him a raise until finally Bure asks to be traded out of there.

Bure was USED and Abused by the canucks and yet he still played for us for many years until the team was so TRASHED he couldnt take it anymore.

Linden was trashed, messier and keenan were running the team. Players were all sold off like Courtnall and Ronning.

The guy couldnt take it anymore. Pavel Bure is generational talent we may never see again . He spent from age 20 to age 28 in a Canuck uniform. The best years of his professional life.

If we had treated him like we treat the Sedins, he would have NEVER left.

Not entirely accurate.....

Shortly after arriving in North America from Moscow with his father and brother on September 6, 1991 (his mother Tatiana arrived two months later),[8] Bure married an American fashion model in a civil ceremony five days later. The model was later revealed to be Jayme Bohn. The marriage was allegedly set up by Bure's agents as a preventative measure against deportation in the event Bure and the Canucks could not come to terms with a contract.


The Canucks management and officials from the Soviet Ice Hockey Federation met in late-October 1991 in a Detroit court, where they bartered for a cash settlement. After the Canucks offered $200,000, Bure stood up in the courtroom to offer an additional $50,000, bringing the total to $250,000. The Soviet officials accepted, and Canucks management paid the full $250,000.[3][25] Bure signed a four-year contract worth a reported $2.7 million with an $800,000 signing bonus soon thereafter.[8] The deal made Bure the Canucks' second highest paid player behind team captain Trevor Linden, who had just recently signed a four-year, $3.7 million contract.
http://en.wikipedia....99.2C_p._18_7-0

He didn't get married to get into the US, he got married to stay in the US in case he couldn't come to contract terms withs the Canucks.

At the time it was reported Bure "offered" to pay the $50k difference out of his $800k signing bonus because he wanted the contract and get playing.


I'm not so sure Bure "wanted nothing more than to play in Vancouver". It was well known he hated the attention he got every time he went out here. In a recent interview Gino even mentioned that Bure loved the fact that he could go out in Florida and not be recognized.
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#344 Baggins

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:38 PM

Well ian or whatever your name is, that is a wager you would lose. I wasn't a child watching Bure play but it did take a few years for the truth to come out regarding the circumstances of his arrival in Canada and his mishandling at the hands of the canucks.

Facts are all out there now, if you care to recognize them.


The name is Baggins. It's right there in the top left on every one of my posts.

Has the whole truth come out or just Bure's side? Gillis said himself that the whole story hasn't been told. Having been his agent I don't doubt he does know. Regardless, I don't see that as a reason to retire a players number.

Honestly, I don't think he sat out and demanded a trade because he was "abused" here. Everybody that had "abused" him was gone by then. So the timing makes no sense. I think it was the combination of the lack of anonymity here and his buddy Gino being traded that last season. Pure speculation, but it makes more sense than irreconcilable differences with a management that was no longer here.

Ultimately I don't see how, nor why, he left as an issue regarding retiring his number. The only issue is the lack of games in combination with very little in major acheivements. Just take a look at Roy's acheivements as a Hab in comparison.
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#345 lowest common denominator

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:42 PM

Actually I said he doesn't deserve it because he only played 428 games here. Which means the first two are true. Do try to keep up.

I don't recall comparing Bure to Orr but I'll humor you. Orr won 2 Art Ross, 8 Norris, 3 Hart, 2 Conne Smyth, 1 Pearson and 2 Stanley Cups. Bure won none of those. So no, Bure truly isn't Bobby Orr. Feel better?


Wow leave it to D Baggins to get the facts twisted up into an unrecognizable knot! Whatever suits your intention, Darlin'.

Why you keep saying 428?

You compared Bure to Orr not 2 pages back!
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#346 lowest common denominator

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:48 PM

The name is Baggins. It's right there in the top left on every one of my posts.

Ultimately I don't see how, nor why, he left as an issue regarding retiring his number. The only issue is the lack of games in combination with very little in major acheivements.


The two are intrinsically related, inseparably intertwined.

As I have stated, had Bure not been grossly manipulated and mismanaged by sneaky, underhanded, deceptive management(yes, the mighty Pat Quinn), then he would have played alot more games here and might have even retired here.

If you can't get your head around that concept then I don't know if there's any helping you.

Very little in major achievements???? Should we start from page 1 again? You are telling me to keep up?!

Baggins also said "The fans here are a joke", yup, I concur
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#347 lowest common denominator

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:50 PM

The Canucks management and officials from the Soviet Ice Hockey Federation met in late-October 1991 in a Detroit court, where they bartered for a cash settlement. After the Canucks offered $200,000, Bure stood up in the courtroom to offer an additional $50,000, bringing the total to $250,000. The Soviet officials accepted, and Canucks management paid the full $250,000.[3][25] Bure signed a four-year contract worth a reported $2.7 million with an $800,000 signing bonus soon thereafter.[8] The deal made Bure the Canucks' second highest paid player behind team captain Trevor Linden, who had just recently signed a four-year, $3.7 million contract.
http://en.wikipedia....99.2C_p._18_7-0



So you are getting your information from wikipaedia?

That figures.
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#348 lowest common denominator

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:51 PM

Well Bure did love his paycheck and there was only one way to get a good one.


Ya, by being a kick ass hockey player.

When did the canucks morph from a hockey team into whatever it is they have become?
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#349 lowest common denominator

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:59 PM

No, it's John Cerruti. Is that you, Casper Jr?




And I do not care about your opinion on the matter either. See? We're establishing so much common ground here. And people are saying that you're a "douche". Well, I'd never say that.




Yup. I have acknowledged the possibility of such in my posts. This must be an understanding or retention issue on your part. This does not change that, to my mind, Bure did not want to be here regardless of the situation with management.




Hamhuis ain't bad. Sundin, albeit he was past his prime, liked the money enough to come here (sorta'). Willie Mitchell is still well thought of, by some.

Yeah, there might be something to your perspective on this. On the other hand, have you looked at other, related issues which could affect a UFA choice on whether or not to sign here? I'm sure you have, but I'll note some of them anyways for the rest of the folks reading this:

a.) Who would he be playing with, or behind? Vancouver has had a number of decent 1st lines or top d-men for the past while. Yeah, there wasn't a Suter or Weber in the bunch, but they weren't that bad, and just because a guy is a UFA doesn't mean he will automatically sign with the team of your choice. Shocking, isn't it?

b.) What about cap hit? maybe the Canucks couldn't afford what the player was asking? (also, see d)

c.) Travel schedule. This can be a real grind.

d.) Maybe they didn't like some of the personalities on the team, or the team ownership/management.

The coaching situation was a bit weird after Quinn left the job in '94. There was what, four coaches in five years? And some of those were with Keenan. Him being here probably caused a lot of players to think twice about signing here.

Maybe some UFA's were turned off by the rather tight belts of the Canucks' ownership during these times.


In any event, working on the assumption that Quinn was a bad, bad man, he hasn't been here since 1997. Are you suggesting that UFA's are not signing here because of Pat Quinn? Gee, Harold Ballard was a S.o.B. Does this mean that players don't want to sign with the Leafs, even though he's been dead for over 20 years?

Yeah, you might be on to something.


regards,
G.


I don't follow the casper jr reference?

I might be a douche, but i'll be the douche speaking the truth, thank you.

Hamhuis? THats the best we could come up with? And we had Willie Mitchell, probably the best dman the nux have ever had, and let him go after he got concussed (BIG MISTAKE and I said so at the time). Just more evidence that management is inept and more reason for star players to not want to come here.

So Vancouver has all these obstacles to overcome when it comes to wooing stars here, add to that the classless, manipulative history of poorly treated players and voila! We get second rate all stars presented as super stars and no chance of a cup.

Believe me, I would love to see 22 n 33 prove me wrong, in fact, if they bring us a cup, I'll eat a puck. Quote me on it.

And who have the leafs signed in the last 20 yrs that could be considered game breaking superstar? Kessel? pffft get real. Toronto n Van are similar in the fact that their only stars are swedes who have been drafted through the organization and groomed for pseudo idolatry. That, and the fact that they are both loser franchises. At least the leafs have something to be proud of, even if it happened half a century ago.

Edited by scottiecanuck, 20 November 2012 - 03:06 PM.

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#350 Gollumpus

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:00 PM

Pavel Bure wanted NOTHING more than to play in Vancouver.

He could have easily stayed in Russia and re entered the draft later. Instead he gets MARRIED to some women he doesnt know all to get a US visa.............all so that Brian Burke can leave him stranded in California for 10 days.

Then Quinn makes him pay his own Russian transfer cash. A move that is outright embarrassing for the Canucks organization.

Bure does everything asked of him, including winning the Calder then scoring 60 goals twice. Quinn refuses to give him a raise until finally Bure asks to be traded out of there.

Bure was USED and Abused by the canucks and yet he still played for us for many years until the team was so TRASHED he couldnt take it anymore.

Linden was trashed, messier and keenan were running the team. Players were all sold off like Courtnall and Ronning.

The guy couldnt take it anymore. Pavel Bure is generational talent we may never see again . He spent from age 20 to age 28 in a Canuck uniform. The best years of his professional life.

If we had treated him like we treat the Sedins, he would have NEVER left.



I believe that Bure wanted nothing more than to play in the NHL. This is markedly different than him wanting to play in Vancouver. He would not be pining for the Canucks had another team thought to try and draft him before the Canucks got around to it (in the 6th round).

Why did Bure jump to the NHL as soon as he did? Was it to fulfill his childhood dream of playing with the Canucks' crest on his chest, or was it so he could start collecting an NHL salary as soon as possible?

Did Bure score lots of points, and did he have issues with Canucks' management? Yup. I've acknowledged these things before so you aren't telling me anything new or with which I disagree. I like Bure as a player, however I do not see him as a Canuck in the same sense that Smyl or Linden were Canucks (maybe can still be viewed as being Canucks). Bure was a guy who played well while he was here, and then he moved on.


regards,
G.
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#351 Drybone

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:03 PM

Not entirely accurate.....

Shortly after arriving in North America from Moscow with his father and brother on September 6, 1991 (his mother Tatiana arrived two months later),[8] Bure married an American fashion model in a civil ceremony five days later. The model was later revealed to be Jayme Bohn. The marriage was allegedly set up by Bure's agents as a preventative measure against deportation in the event Bure and the Canucks could not come to terms with a contract.


The Canucks management and officials from the Soviet Ice Hockey Federation met in late-October 1991 in a Detroit court, where they bartered for a cash settlement. After the Canucks offered $200,000, Bure stood up in the courtroom to offer an additional $50,000, bringing the total to $250,000. The Soviet officials accepted, and Canucks management paid the full $250,000.[3][25] Bure signed a four-year contract worth a reported $2.7 million with an $800,000 signing bonus soon thereafter.[8] The deal made Bure the Canucks' second highest paid player behind team captain Trevor Linden, who had just recently signed a four-year, $3.7 million contract.
http://en.wikipedia....99.2C_p._18_7-0

He didn't get married to get into the US, he got married to stay in the US in case he couldn't come to contract terms withs the Canucks.

At the time it was reported Bure "offered" to pay the $50k difference out of his $800k signing bonus because he wanted the contract and get playing.


I'm not so sure Bure "wanted nothing more than to play in Vancouver". It was well known he hated the attention he got every time he went out here. In a recent interview Gino even mentioned that Bure loved the fact that he could go out in Florida and not be recognized.


Your post does little to alter the actual narrative. You are reduced to stating 'he got married to STAY in the US like some big difference ' You are parsing small aspects of the actual facts that do not change the merit as a whole.

The only actual point you brought up is that he did not expect such a drastic fishbowl celebrity in Vancouver . However, I think its reasonable that if the canucks had treated him with anywhere near the same respect that the Canucks now show players like the twins , then he could and would have retired in Vancouver.
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#352 Drybone

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:07 PM

I believe that Bure wanted nothing more than to play in the NHL. This is markedly different than him wanting to play in Vancouver. He would not be pining for the Canucks had another team thought to try and draft him before the Canucks got around to it (in the 6th round).

Why did Bure jump to the NHL as soon as he did? Was it to fulfill his childhood dream of playing with the Canucks' crest on his chest, or was it so he could start collecting an NHL salary as soon as possible?

Did Bure score lots of points, and did he have issues with Canucks' management? Yup. I've acknowledged these things before so you aren't telling me anything new or with which I disagree. I like Bure as a player, however I do not see him as a Canuck in the same sense that Smyl or Linden were Canucks (maybe can still be viewed as being Canucks). Bure was a guy who played well while he was here, and then he moved on.


regards,
G.


Your post is well thought out and is not biased. I respect your opinion. It does not seem based on spite or hatred or seeing what we want to see.

I do have to disagree however. I was at the first game Bure played in Vancouver against the Jets. The guy I saw was different as he was a young cocky russian, but there was no doubt in my mind he wanted to play here.

As in play here just as much as anywhere else. He was not DYING to get out of here. Its my opinion that Pat Quinn, Mike keenan and to a smaller degree Brian Burke made that happen.

In the end he was willing to go to Iraq to play hockey rather than stay in Vancouver.

And I believe he should have his number retired.
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#353 lowest common denominator

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:23 PM

I believe that Bure wanted nothing more than to play in the NHL. This is markedly different than him wanting to play in Vancouver. He would not be pining for the Canucks had another team thought to try and draft him before the Canucks got around to it (in the 6th round).

Why did Bure jump to the NHL as soon as he did? Was it to fulfill his childhood dream of playing with the Canucks' crest on his chest, or was it so he could start collecting an NHL salary as soon as possible?


regards,
G.


What does it matter? History will show that he did indeed play for the canucks and gave every bit of his being in his time here. History will also show that Bure was the best hockey player to ever wear the canucks jersey.

He jumped to the nhl when he did because he had the skillz to back everything up. One former canuck alumni said he truly "walked the walk". So many people these days have a lot to say and a huge ego but can't back it up with on ice actions. Bure was all business. So what? When you're scoring 60goals in b2b seasons, and winning Rocket Richard trophies,you can do that. It's called beinga Superstar. Maybe canuck fans just don't recognize because we never saw one before and likely won't see one again.

Is he the only one concerned with making $$$? Look at these locked out kids in their cargo pants and beach attire today and tell me they are not in it for the money?? Everyone is in it for the $$ so how are you going to hang that around someones neck because he actually deserved every penny he ever earned, and then some.
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#354 Gollumpus

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:30 PM

I don't follow the casper jr reference?


Look it up.

I might be a douche, but i'll be the douche speaking the truth, thank you.


From my perspective, you are speaking an opinion. Your opinion is hardly "truth". And while we're having this little chat, I should once again assert that I am not anti-Bure. He was a very talented and gifted player who got lots of points while he was here. The fact that he got all of those points while he was here was, in my opinion, secondary to Bure's main goal which was to play in the NHL. Anywhere in the NHL.


Hamhuis? THats the best we could come up with? And we had Willie Mitchell, probably the best dman the nux have ever had, and let him go after he got concussed (BIG MISTAKE and I said so at the time). Just more evidence that management is inept and more reason for star players to not want to come here.


So I'm supposed to start making up names or something? The Canucks (under Gillis) signed two of the most sought after UFA d-men in the last couple of years (assuming Suter and RFA Weber as perhaps the two most sought after). This was a pretty good result.

The Canucks offered Mitchell a contract. LA offered more because they were more desperate for blue liners than were the Canucks. Mitchell chose to sign in LA. Mitchell managed to have a good season, and I'm happy for him. Deal with it.


So Vancouver has all these obstacles to overcome when it comes to wooing stars here, add to that the classless, manipulative history of poorly treated players and voila! We get second rate all stars presented as super stars and no chance of a cup.


You have a very poor opinion of the players on this team. It makes me question if you are a Canucks supporter or merely a troll.

And the best you can come up with is that Quinn mistreated Bure over a decade ago the a reason why UFA's don't want to come here? Some of the moves made by Gillis might not be popular. Not offering Mitchell the kind of deal he got from LA, or not offering Ehrhoff the sort of deal he got from Buffalo, were sound business decisions on his part.

Believe me, I would love to see 22 n 33 prove me wrong, in fact, if they bring us a cup, I'll eat a puck. Quote me on it.


Your dietary wants and needs are not of any interest to me.


regards,
G.
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#355 Gollumpus

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:35 PM

Your post is well thought out and is not biased. I respect your opinion. It does not seem based on spite or hatred or seeing what we want to see.

I do have to disagree however. I was at the first game Bure played in Vancouver against the Jets. The guy I saw was different as he was a young cocky russian, but there was no doubt in my mind he wanted to play here.

As in play here just as much as anywhere else. He was not DYING to get out of here. Its my opinion that Pat Quinn, Mike keenan and to a smaller degree Brian Burke made that happen.

In the end he was willing to go to Iraq to play hockey rather than stay in Vancouver.

And I believe he should have his number retired.


+1. Good response as has been the norm from you.

We agree that there were a lot of reasons why Bure didn't want to be here. Bure's number will very likely get retired (either 10 or 96). It won't pain me to see this happen, just as I wouldn't be doing jigs of glee if #10 wasn't hung in the rafters.

regards,
G.
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#356 lowest common denominator

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:43 PM

Look it up.



From my perspective, you are speaking an opinion. Your opinion is hardly "truth". And while we're having this little chat, I should once again assert that I am not anti-Bure. He was a very talented and gifted player who got lots of points while he was here. The fact that he got all of those points while he was here was, in my opinion, secondary to Bure's main goal which was to play in the NHL. Anywhere in the NHL.1




So I'm supposed to start making up names or something? The Canucks (under Gillis) signed two of the most sought after UFA d-men in the last couple of years (assuming Suter and RFA Weber as perhaps the two most sought after). This was a pretty good result.

The Canucks offered Mitchell a contract. LA offered more because they were more desperate for blue liners than were the Canucks. Mitchell chose to sign in LA. Mitchell managed to have a good season, and I'm happy for him. Deal with it.




You have a very poor opinion of the players on this team.2 It makes me question if you are a Canucks supporter or merely a troll.

And the best you can come up with is that Quinn mistreated Bure over a decade ago the a reason why UFA's don't want to come here?3 Some of the moves made by Gillis might not be popular. Not offering Mitchell the kind of deal he got from LA, or not offering Ehrhoff the sort of deal he got from Buffalo, were sound business decisions on his part.



Your dietary wants and needs are not of any interest to me.4


regards,
G.


1"Anywhere in the NHL" ended up being Vancouver, deal with it. And I have nevr heard Bure say that so it is only your opinion nehow.

2My opinions of players stated in this thread are entirely within the context of jersey retirement. If someone wants to open up a can of worms and start a Sedins thread about getting punched in the face during the SCF, I will gladly contribute to that as well.

3 I was merely agreeing with you, and expanding on the obstacles faced by the canucks when signing talent.

4 Yes, we are all missing the fifth food group right now.

There has been alot of Casper Jr's throughout history, surprisingly enough. I still don't get it. Maybe I'll file that one beside #19 in the wtf? folder

Edited by scottiecanuck, 20 November 2012 - 03:51 PM.

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#357 Gollumpus

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:54 PM

What does it matter? History will show that he did indeed play for the canucks and gave every bit of his being in his time here. History will also show that Bure was the best hockey player to ever wear the canucks jersey.


Indeed, what does it matter? It matters in that it is part of the process by which a guy gets his number retired. You are only looking at the glitter while I am looking at the entire package.

He jumped to the nhl when he did because he had the skillz to back everything up. One former canuck alumni said he truly "walked the walk". So many people these days have a lot to say and a huge ego but can't back it up with on ice actions. Bure was all business. So what? When you're scoring 60goals in b2b seasons, and winning Rocket Richard trophies,you can do that. It's called beinga Superstar. Maybe canuck fans just don't recognize because we never saw one before and likely won't see one again.


And he was sought after by the NHL because he had the skills. Once again, this is not in doubt or dispute.

Is he the only one concerned with making $$$? Look at these locked out kids in their cargo pants and beach attire today and tell me they are not in it for the money?? Everyone is in it for the $$ so how are you going to hang that around someones neck because he actually deserved every penny he ever earned, and then some.


Not hanging anything on anyone. What I do suggest is that Bure's primary motivations for jumping to the NHL from the Red Army team wasn't so he could play with the Canucks. He was interested in playing in the NHL (the best hockey league) and in getting an NHL salary. I do not knock him for this. What I do point out is that the guy was not (in my opinion) a "true Canuck" and that any team would have suited his purpose, whether we are talking about when he was first drafted or later in his career.


regards,
G.
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#358 Gollumpus

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:02 PM

There has been alot of Casper Jr's throughout history, surprisingly enough. I still don't get it. Maybe I'll file that one beside #19 in the wtf? folder


Look up a film by the name of "Winter Kills". John Cerruti was always on the lookout for "Casper Jr."

regards,
G.
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#359 lowest common denominator

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:06 PM

Indeed, what does it matter? It matters in that it is part of the process by which a guy gets his number retired. You are only looking at the glitter while I am looking at the entire package.



And he was sought after by the NHL because he had the skills. Once again, this is not in doubt or dispute.



Not hanging anything on anyone. What I do suggest is that Bure's primary motivations for jumping to the NHL from the Red Army team wasn't so he could play with the Canucks. He was interested in playing in the NHL (the best hockey league) and in getting an NHL salary. I do not knock him for this. What I do point out is that the guy was not (in my opinion) a "true Canuck" and that any team would have suited his purpose, whether we are talking about when he was first drafted or later in his career.


regards,
G.


Of course he wasn't a "true canuck" He grew up in the soviet union and dreamed of playing for the Red Army. Do you think Naslund grew up dreaming of canuck colours or Swedish blue and yellow? How about Linden? He grew up in alberta, do you think he dreamed of playing for the nux? No, but they drafted him so he gave them his all, just like Bure.

And how about these "true canucks" you speak of? Joe Sakic? the Neidermeyers? Where are they in canuck history?

It might be true that any team would have suited Bure's purpose, but it ended up being the Canucks.
And every other team probably wishes they would have scouted Bure better because they all would have scooped him up if they had known what was to come.
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#360 bure's triple deke

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:42 PM

Roy with Montreal....
11 seasons
Calder trophy
2 Conne Smythe Trophies
4 William Jennings Trophies
3 Vezina Trophies
2 Stanley Cups

I'd say that although Roy had a bitter parting with Montreal he also has a considerable number of reasons to have his number retired. In both of the cup wins in Montreal he was the playoff MVP. Although Montreal retires numbers like a Pez dispenser I'd have a tough time arguing against Roys number going up. Actually, the only possible argument would be how he left. That's certainly offset by his accomplishments as a Hab.


Fair enough. Roy's resumé with Montreal is quite a bit more illustrious than Bure's with Vancouver. I do think a fair comparison is there, however. I mostly wanted to point out that Roy sets the kind of precedent that Bure seems to need to get his number retired (ie. teams retiring player's numbers despite extreme off-ice differences).
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