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[Report] Canucks MIGHT retire Pavel Bure's #10


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#391 lowest common denominator

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:35 AM

You seem to be confused by the difference between a league wide accomplishment as a Canuck and career accomplishment as a player. Bure is in the HHoF because of his entire career, not because he was a Canuck.


Bure led the Canucks in points 4 times
Naslund led the Canucks in points 7 consecutive years

Does one of those seem more significant than the other?


Bure played 428 games for the Canucks
Naslund played 894 games for the Canucks

Does one of those seem more significant than the other?


I loled
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#392 lowest common denominator

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:45 AM

Double post

Edited by scottiecanuck, 23 November 2012 - 09:52 AM.

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#393 lowest common denominator

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:49 AM

You have great employee that moves on to a new employer after 5 years, and a very good employee that stays for 25 years. Who gets the gold watch?

So now bure was here 5yrs and nazzy 25yrs?
WowZers. Do you like the sound of your own voice or what?


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#394 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:48 AM

You seem to be confused by the difference between a league wide accomplishment as a Canuck and career accomplishment as a player. Bure is in the HHoF because of his entire career, not because he was a Canuck.


Bure led the Canucks in points 4 times
Naslund led the Canucks in points 7 consecutive years

Does one of those seem more significant than the other?


Bure played 428 games for the Canucks
Naslund played 894 games for the Canucks

Does one of those seem more significant than the other?

So you seem to think that he would've made the hall without the Canuck years? If so, please stop.

Once again, you're ignoring Bure's other Canucks-related accomplishments when relating to Naslund.

Point to Naslund's playoff success, for starters. Canuck all-time playoff goals and points? Oh right, Bure owns those records.

No really... We get it, Baggins. You think season games played matters a lot. And it does, but before Naslund's jersey retirement, season records wasn't the bar used by the Canucks. Playoff success was. ie. We 'lowered the bar' with Naslund's jersey retirement.

Needless to say, the bar is adjustable. I think the Canucks will raise it again with a Bure jersey retirement.

The selection committee has a majority of Bure-lovers, Francesco wants his jersey retired, the fans want it, and it makes a lot of sense, esp. after the Naslund jersey retirement. So I think it's going to happen.
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#395 Jaimito

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:38 PM

saw this randomly on utube. man bure was so fast.

the 2nd goal looked just like the 94 gm 7 OT goal in round 1. also, check out the fan with nux jersey in japan.


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#396 Mauii

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:16 PM

^^^ thanks for sharing. He could have won that game singlehandedly...unbelievable. He looks even faster on an international level.

Reminds me of my nephew..out of 10 goals he would have scored 8 or he'd tell me how his team was losing and down a few goals and so he'd score a couple and they'd win. His mom tells me he'd done that a couple of times. Unfortunately this is for soccer, hopefully, he can transfer this on the ice someday although I think he wants to be a goalie for hockey. Apparently, on his first debut as a goalie, he did great and won. Maybe my pointers helped him out 😉. He's only 6 years old and has a long ways to figure it out. He's caught between love scoring and also wanting to stop goals. The only Canuck player he's familiar with is Luongo altho he is a big Canucks fan, and only wants to be a Canuck. A gay fortune teller on a Caribbean cruise told my mom that he could see her grandson with the words "Canook"??? on his jersey...lol. He was little confused and didn't know how to pronounce it properly. We shall see...

Edited by Mauii, 25 November 2012 - 12:09 AM.

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#397 Baggins

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:15 AM

So you seem to think that he would've made the hall without the Canuck years? If so, please stop.

Once again, you're ignoring Bure's other Canucks-related accomplishments when relating to Naslund.

Point to Naslund's playoff success, for starters. Canuck all-time playoff goals and points? Oh right, Bure owns those records.

No really... We get it, Baggins. You think season games played matters a lot. And it does, but before Naslund's jersey retirement, season records wasn't the bar used by the Canucks. Playoff success was. ie. We 'lowered the bar' with Naslund's jersey retirement.

Needless to say, the bar is adjustable. I think the Canucks will raise it again with a Bure jersey retirement.

The selection committee has a majority of Bure-lovers, Francesco wants his jersey retired, the fans want it, and it makes a lot of sense, esp. after the Naslund jersey retirement. So I think it's going to happen.


Zero Stanley Cups....

What playoff success?
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#398 Riviera82

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:05 AM

Zero Stanley Cups....

What playoff success?


More than one second round appearance in his career.
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#399 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:36 AM

Zero Stanley Cups....

What playoff success?

A question for Trevor Linden and Stan Smyl as well.


(You lost.)
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#400 Westcoasting

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:48 AM

I don't know if any of you know of Tony Tanti or watched him play at all but i was just looking at his numbers and they are basically identical to Pavel's other than he played 90 more games as a Canuck. During his time he was the star during that period. Shouldn't we be retiring his number first? Or does he not count for anything?
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#401 Baggins

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:24 AM

A question for Trevor Linden and Stan Smyl as well.


(You lost.)


You're the one that keeps talking about Bure's "playoff success". I'm asking what playoff success?

We all know why Smyl, Linden and Naslund had their numbers retired. Games played, long time captains, high level of play and community commitment. Or do you actually believe Smyl and Linden had their numbers retired because of one failed cup run?
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#402 Baggins

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:50 AM

More than one second round appearance in his career.


Getting knocked out in the second round is considered playoff success? :lol:
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#403 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:41 PM

Let's try again. Naslund's jersey is retired. Bure's is not. Yet. The bar before Naslund's jersey retirement was playoff success. ie. For this team, that would be making it to the finals.

So... Point to Naslund's playoff success, please. What is it? Canuck all-time playoff goals and points? Oh right, Bure owns those records.

No really... We get it, Baggins. You think season games played matters a lot. And it does, but before Naslund's jersey retirement, season records wasn't the bar used by the Canucks. Playoff success was. ie. We 'lowered the bar' with Naslund's jersey retirement.

Needless to say, the bar is adjustable. I think the Canucks will raise it again with a Bure jersey retirement.

The selection committee has a majority of Bure-lovers, Francesco wants his jersey retired, the fans want it, and it makes a lot of sense, esp. after the Naslund jersey retirement. So I think it's going to happen.
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#404 Baggins

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:06 PM

Let's try again. Naslund's jersey is retired. Bure's is not. Yet. The bar before Naslund's jersey retirement was playoff success. ie. For this team, that would be making it to the finals.

So... Point to Naslund's playoff success, please. What is it? Canuck all-time playoff goals and points? Oh right, Bure owns those records.

No really... We get it, Baggins. You think season games played matters a lot. And it does, but before Naslund's jersey retirement, season records wasn't the bar used by the Canucks. Playoff success was. ie. We 'lowered the bar' with Naslund's jersey retirement.

Needless to say, the bar is adjustable. I think the Canucks will raise it again with a Bure jersey retirement.

The selection committee has a majority of Bure-lovers, Francesco wants his jersey retired, the fans want it, and it makes a lot of sense, esp. after the Naslund jersey retirement. So I think it's going to happen.


So you actually do believe one failed playoff run gets your number retired. :lol:

You may have assumed it was their one failed run (which boggles my mind) when in truth it was their 800+ games and being long term captains (plus other factors tha have been beaten to death). I never for a moment thought they had their numbers retired because of one failed playoff run. That is indeed setting the bar low. Why weren't Snepsts, Gradin and Macleans numbers retired then? All three were a big part of one failed cup run. Or should I say "playoff success".
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#405 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:57 PM

You're failing to recognize the main point. In that the bar is adjustable.

Naslund's jersey is retired. Bure's is not. Yet. The bar before Naslund's jersey retirement was playoff success. ie. For this team, that would be making it to the finals. Once Naslund's was retired, then playoff success was deemed not needed to have a jersey retired.

The adjustable bar means Bure, with all his Canuck accomplishments and records, combined with his superior playoff success, is also jersey retirement-worthy.

You're basically really slow in coming around to accepting this reality. The rest of us figured out that a Bure jersey retirement was possible the instant Naslund's was announced.

This reality combined with Aquilini and the majority of people in charge of these decisions being huge Bure fans pretty much point to a Canuck Bure jersey retirement.


PS. Lol at playoff success, ie. making it to the finals for us, not being important at all for Canuck fans. We had two riots for it!
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#406 Riviera82

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:35 PM

Getting knocked out in the second round is considered playoff success? :lol:


Ask Naslund.
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#407 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:43 PM

Zero Stanley Cups....

What playoff success?


He means individual playoff success.

If it was on team playoff success than #16, #12 and #19 should all come down from the rafters right away.
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#408 Baggins

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:59 PM

You're failing to recognize the main point. In that the bar is adjustable.

Naslund's jersey is retired. Bure's is not. Yet. The bar before Naslund's jersey retirement was playoff success. ie. For this team, that would be making it to the finals. Once Naslund's was retired, then playoff success was deemed not needed to have a jersey retired.

The adjustable bar means Bure, with all his Canuck accomplishments and records, combined with his superior playoff success, is also jersey retirement-worthy.

You're basically really slow in coming around to accepting this reality. The rest of us figured out that a Bure jersey retirement was possible the instant Naslund's was announced.

This reality combined with Aquilini and the majority of people in charge of these decisions being huge Bure fans pretty much point to a Canuck Bure jersey retirement.


PS. Lol at playoff success, ie. making it to the finals for us, not being important at all for Canuck fans. We had two riots for it!


Well the "adjustable bar" has dropped considerably imo. Goring has 4 Stanley Cups and was MVP for the second one. Why do you think his number wasn't retired by the Isles? (Hint: check how many games he played there)

PS: although making the finals is exciting as a fan, losing is not a reason to retire a number. Btw, two riots is not something to be proud of.
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#409 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:18 PM

Pardon me, but Butch Goring? Different class of player.

But if we're comparing different franchise jersey retirements again, let's go back to Pat Lafontaine.

No?


Okay, then let's stick with the Canucks then. There's enough reasons here to retire Bure's number if Naslund's is retired. There hasn't been enough brought up to support the contrary. Esp. when you're talking about the playoffs, but mainly because Bure and Naslund have both accomplished enough for this franchise to be honoured greatly and equally.
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#410 Pineapples

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:48 PM

You're failing to recognize the main point. In that the bar is adjustable.

Naslund's jersey is retired. Bure's is not. Yet. The bar before Naslund's jersey retirement was playoff success.


Says who?

I agree that Bure's # should be retired but the reasoning for it is not mainly based on playoff success.
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#411 Baggins

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:49 AM

Pardon me, but Butch Goring? Different class of player.

But if we're comparing different franchise jersey retirements again, let's go back to Pat Lafontaine.

No?


Okay, then let's stick with the Canucks then. There's enough reasons here to retire Bure's number if Naslund's is retired. There hasn't been enough brought up to support the contrary. Esp. when you're talking about the playoffs, but mainly because Bure and Naslund have both accomplished enough for this franchise to be honoured greatly and equally.


Well you say playoff success was the bar before Naslund. I say 800 games was the bar. Which of us is right?

Did Smyl or Linden have any real playoff "success"? No. Unless of course your bar is set at no cups and one career foray past the second round. That's a pretty low bar and laughable to call that "playoff success". Nor is one lonely foray past the second round reason enough to retire a number.

Smyl, Linden and Naslund have four things in common: 800+ games, long term captains, community service, and high level of play.

Now thinking with a minimum amount of common sense, which is the more likely reason Smyl and Lindens numbers were retired:
1 - One foray past the second round resulting in no cup
2 - Games played combined with several other factors

What does common sense actually tell you?
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#412 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:20 AM

Common sense tells me that Bure's jersey is likely going to be retired, for reasons stated over and over again. It's you who is treading against it.

My main point, once again, is not what the bar was before, it is that the bar is adjustable. Meaning Bure's playoff success and team records, accomplishments, and impact make him just as worthy as Linden, Smyl and certainly Naslund for Canuck jersey retirement.

Naslund, Smyl, Linden and Bure are all different players. They all accomplished certain things for this franchise. And all of them are worthy of jersey retirement.

When Bure's jersey hangs up here, the majority of the league's fans will be saying 'What took so long?'
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#413 Baggins

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:26 PM

Common sense tells me that Bure's jersey is likely going to be retired, for reasons stated over and over again. It's you who is treading against it.

My main point, once again, is not what the bar was before, it is that the bar is adjustable. Meaning Bure's playoff success and team records, accomplishments, and impact make him just as worthy as Linden, Smyl and certainly Naslund for Canuck jersey retirement.

Naslund, Smyl, Linden and Bure are all different players. They all accomplished certain things for this franchise. And all of them are worthy of jersey retirement.

When Bure's jersey hangs up here, the majority of the league's fans will be saying 'What took so long?'


We'll simply have to agree to disagree. I don't see 428 games as a sufficient enough contribution regardless of how talented the player.
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#414 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:05 PM

The 428 games-played for the franchise is wrong, btw. It's 488, including playoff games. (Why are you constantly ignoring the playoffs when everyone else treats our '94 run like it's the best thing ever to happen to the Canucks? Is it because that run was fueled by Bure?)

But in any event, it's 7 seasons. That's long enough, considering how much he did for the franchise.
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#415 Baggins

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:21 AM

The 428 games-played for the franchise is wrong, btw. It's 488, including playoff games. (Why are you constantly ignoring the playoffs when everyone else treats our '94 run like it's the best thing ever to happen to the Canucks? Is it because that run was fueled by Bure?)

But in any event, it's 7 seasons. That's long enough, considering how much he did for the franchise.


It's not wrong at all, as I've previously pointed out. Whenever talking about a players career it's the regular season totals that are always brought up. A player doesn't get his shiny silver stick after playing 1000 regular season plus playoff games combined. No, he gets it for playing 1000 regular season games. Regular season is always the benchmark on a players career in such discussions. Likely because not all teams are created equal. You could be a great player that spends a decade on a team that never makes the playoffs. Regular season is the equal opportunity for all players regardless of team.
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#416 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:48 AM

Good God, who cares about what your silly reasoning is. Games played for the franchise = 488, not 428.
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#417 Baggins

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:13 AM

Good God, who cares about what your silly reasoning is. Games played for the franchise = 488, not 428.


Are you Ronald Reagan?

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention

:picard:
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#418 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:16 AM

wtf I was just going to facepalm you. Lol.
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#419 Bite me Burr

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:31 PM

Once again, you're ignoring Bure's other Canucks-related accomplishments when relating to Naslund.



No really... We get it, Baggins. You think season games played matters a lot. And it does, but before Naslund's jersey retirement, season records wasn't the bar used by the Canucks. Playoff success was. ie. We 'lowered the bar' with Naslund's jersey retirement.

Needless to say, the bar is adjustable. I think the Canucks will raise it again with a Bure jersey retirement.


Yes, I remember this is classic Baggins on Bure.
Lowering the bar is exactly what happened... and it made money, but it cheapened the honour.
He argued that charity and being a nice guy along with getting some points was how Naslund was VERY deserving of getting this. He also compared Naslund to Dionne, despite a 1000 point gap in similar GP, as neither had won a cup, but had their jersey hung. This is fine, if youre not sharing this in word.

Naslund was a one D, pouting, quitter who even threatened to head back to Sweden between his "we choked" rare media moments, finally leaving as capatin and UFA with just enough points to edge out two career grinders in Smyl and Linden, yet we lowered the bar and placed him beside these two heros of the sport who blocked shots with their teeth while down 8-1 in the last minute of the game. Shamefull.

In Canada and especially the west, we value guts as much as skill because we know that skill doesnt win cups, guts and desire do. Naslunds jersey is an open wound to those who know the game as battle and being that Naslund didnt sacrifice his body on his way to racking up points... modest points that saw very few 80+point seasons from a one D player is why we say the bar was lowered in a PR stunt. Great player, but to retire his number was insulting.

Bure had great stats and played his guts out. He thrilled and excited the league with his crazy style. He is a legend only comparable to Naslund in that he was a Canuck. To have waited this long to recognize the player Bure was in Vancouver is shamefull. Here is a guy that wanted to win at all costs, even if he was completely pucked over by the Canucks. Try playing through that.

Bure remains in a league of his own, especially as a Canuck.

Edited by Jim Lahey, 01 December 2012 - 12:33 PM.

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#420 Bite me Burr

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:58 PM

Well you say playoff success was the bar before Naslund. I say 800 games was the bar. Which of us is right?

Did Smyl or Linden have any real playoff "success"? No. Unless of course your bar is set at no cups and one career foray past the second round. That's a pretty low bar and laughable to call that "playoff success". Nor is one lonely foray past the second round reason enough to retire a number.

Smyl, Linden and Naslund have four things in common: 800+ games, long term captains, community service, and high level of play.

Now thinking with a minimum amount of common sense, which is the more likely reason Smyl and Lindens numbers were retired:
1 - One foray past the second round resulting in no cup
2 - Games played combined with several other factors

What does common sense actually tell you?


Emasculating the sport and using debating skillz on the internet to project Naslund as more than Bure is ok if you are admitting that THE WAY YOU PLAY THE GAME is no longer a factor in summing up a body of work and career.
Go on, look up and remember his tax deductable charity work and his classy reputation and his so-so point totals when you see his number. Just tell it straight to your grandkid one day that Naslund also quit the Canucks; that he was a UFA NTC captain who bailed and left us dry, like Bure, the bad guy.

Edited by Jim Lahey, 01 December 2012 - 01:00 PM.

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