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[Report] Canucks MIGHT retire Pavel Bure's #10


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#211 RWMc1

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 02:43 PM

I hope that Bure's number is not retired. He was the antithesis of a team player. He left after sitting out his last season and demanding to be traded. Add the fact that he has never returned to Vancouver in any capacity since his hockey career ended.
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#212 Baggins

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:56 PM

Baggins, I don't even think you are canucks fan, to be honest. You seem to come from a place of pure ignorance when talking about Bure. Spouting lies and rumours started 20 years ago


I stopped reading there. Quote anything I said that is a lie. How about arguing my points. The largest of which being Bure didn't play enough games here to warrant retiring his number.

My previous post was full of facts. Bure hit top ten in the league scoring race twice in his time here. Both Naslund and Henrik did that three consecutive seasons. I've never once said Bure lacks talent or wasn't exciting . I simply question whether that's enough reason to retire his number. Ignorance is ignoring facts. Which appears to be your department.
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#213 Baggins

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:54 PM

Douche Baggins,

On a night when an outstanding player has finally given true Canucks fans something that they can truly be proud of, you have proven yourself an embarrassment to Canucks Nation.

You conveniently stopped reading my post so you can continue on with your head planted firmly up your ass, so I will repost it for you in case you decide to come out for some fresh air and a dosage of reality:



And your sig should read "They said sumthin bad about my NAZZY WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

You are an embarassment to Canuck players and Canuck fans everywhere. Pissoff


Your "fastest most gifted player in the league" never won a scoring title nor even the speed competition at any of his six all star appearances.

Your posts are getting rather childish with the name calling. How about sticking to facts.
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#214 M A K A V E L I 96

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:00 PM

Your "fastest most gifted player in the league" never won a scoring title nor even the speed competition at any of his six all star appearances.


Pushing your stick over the sensor line makes you faster than someone who crossed first on their skates? :lol:
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#215 ccc44

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:45 PM

I stopped reading there. Quote anything I said that is a lie. How about arguing my points. The largest of which being Bure didn't play enough games here to warrant retiring his number.

My previous post was full of facts. Bure hit top ten in the league scoring race twice in his time here. Both Naslund and Henrik did that three consecutive seasons. I've never once said Bure lacks talent or wasn't exciting . I simply question whether that's enough reason to retire his number. Ignorance is ignoring facts. Which appears to be your department.

Naslund and H Sedin never scored 60 goals in a season or even 50 .

Didn't you say something about ignoring facts ?
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#216 Baggins

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:25 AM

Naslund and H Sedin never scored 60 goals in a season or even 50 .

Didn't you say something about ignoring facts ?


Both played more than double the number games here plus there's Pearson, Art Ross and Hart.

I'm not ignoring anything. Actually I have mentioned his 60 goals in this thread....
http://forum.canucks...r/page__st__210


The way I see it, there were several reasons to retire the Smyl, Linden, and Naslunds numbers. Length of service, high level of play, community service, long term captains, franchise records. I've only seen one reason to retire Bures. High level of play. I just don't see that as enough of a reason for a guy that only played a little more than 400 games here. You see I'm not ignoring anything. I'm looking at the overall picture of Bure's time here. Other than talent, I don't see much on the checklist.
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#217 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:09 AM

Bure owns the Canuck franchise records for:

-most goals in a season
-most goals in a playoff run
-most points in a playoff run
-most points as a rookie (shared).
-most short-handed goals as a Canuck
-most goals and points scored per game as a Canuck (ahead of Tanti and Gradin, respectively)

He is also
-2nd in all-time Canuck playoff goals behind Trevor.
-3rd in all-time Canuck playoff points behind Henrik and Trevor.
-7th in all-time Canuck career points, despite playing 200-600 less games than guys above him.
-5th in all-time Canuck career goals, despite playing 400-600 less games than guys above him.


He didn't just play at a 'high level' for us. He played at a 'superstar level' for us.

So if we're 'lowering the bar' for a Bure jersey retirement here, Baggins, it is really all that low? The clubs' only superstar isn't good enough to hang beside Smyl, who owned those career Canuck franchise records only because he hung around long enough? With all due respect to The Steamer, his jersey hanging up just marks how pathetic we were during his time here. Bure changed all that.

(Heh. Watch Florida retire his jersey too.)
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#218 nuck7635

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:31 AM

Bure owns the Canuck franchise records for:

-most goals in a season
-most goals in a playoff run
-most points in a playoff run
-most points as a rookie (shared).
-most short-handed goals as a Canuck
-most goals and points scored per game as a Canuck (ahead of Tanti and Gradin, respectively)

He is also
-2nd in all-time Canuck playoff goals behind Trevor.
-3rd in all-time Canuck playoff points behind Henrik and Trevor.
-7th in all-time Canuck career points, despite playing 200-600 less games than guys above him.
-5th in all-time Canuck career goals, despite playing 400-600 less games than guys above him.


He didn't just play at a 'high level' for us. He played at a 'superstar level' for us.

So if we're 'lowering the bar' for a Bure jersey retirement here, Baggins, it is really all that low? The clubs' only superstar isn't good enough to hang beside Smyl, who owned those career Canuck franchise records only because he hung around long enough? With all due respect to The Steamer, his jersey hanging up just marks how pathetic we were during his time here. Bure changed all that.

(Heh. Watch Florida retire his jersey too.)


Also Hall of Famer. Yeah.
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#219 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:05 AM

Of course. Considering that without his accomplishments as a Canuck he wouldn't have gotten into the hall of fame, that may also be a factor to consider. Naslund, Linden and Smyl, meanwhile, won't be getting into the hall. So is Bure in fact 'raising the bar' here?

I know that Bure's time here was a bit brief, and that's too bad, but he did so much for this franchise in that span of time. ie. He made the Canucks coming into town a 'must see' for a few years.

Let's say Crosby never plays for the Pens again because of his head problems. Jersey still retired in Pittsburgh? Okay, he's got a cup. So let's say Ovechkin stays in Russia. Caps still retire Gr8's jersey? You'd be amazed how much the superstar factor comes into play when determining honours. You must respect the skillz, brah.
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#220 winacup

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:32 AM

the most telling stats are his playoff records.
captain choke and the butterflies have had much more time and opportunity to step up and claim those records but have consistently failed to produce when it counts most. if they had even a fraction of bure's heart and desire the cup drought would be over.
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#221 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:44 AM

Y'know, it is possible to post in the Bure thread without disrespecting Naslund and the Sedins.
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#222 Riviera82

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:16 PM

A common misconception there Deb. Some us simply aren't influenced by emotional childhood hero worship memories regarding Bure. Some of us were actually adults when he played here. Most that I know in my age group agree that Bure wasn't here long enough to warrant retiring his number. It has nothing to do with his talent. The issue is his lacking length of service and significant contributions such as cup victories and community service.

Although I do agree that attempting to degrade those that have had their numbers retired in an attempt to justify retiring Bure/s number is pretty sad.


It's as if playing for the Canucks is some kind of low-level crime or misdemeanor. Everyone gets "community service" and if they dont do more than they're ordered then they are shunned by certain fans despite being awesome hockey players.
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#223 Riviera82

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:38 PM

I stopped reading there. Quote anything I said that is a lie. How about arguing my points. The largest of which being Bure didn't play enough games here to warrant retiring his number.

My previous post was full of facts. Bure hit top ten in the league scoring race twice in his time here. Both Naslund and Henrik did that three consecutive seasons. I've never once said Bure lacks talent or wasn't exciting . I simply question whether that's enough reason to retire his number. Ignorance is ignoring facts. Which appears to be your department.


I like Hank a lot and Naslund to a lesser degree, but what have these guys done in the playoffs that Bure did not?
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#224 J.R.

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:58 PM

About time! Woot! :towel:
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#225 debluvscanucks

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:37 PM

My belief is that retiring a jersey....should be reserved for people who go above and beyond their duty, even if their duty is done very well. Retiring a shirt should be a representation of appreciation for what someone has done for a team, a city, an organization, a community, and the sport AS A WHOLE. NOT someone who goes through the motions because their agent tells them to, or their job description requires it.


So, by those standards, I'm expecting Fin's jersey retirement announcement soon?

Honestly, Bure was touted a superstar in the NHL for a reason....and you're right....it wasn't for any off ice contributions that he was making. Leaving only his brilliance on ice to capture that status, right? People can say what they want (although, none of us really has the full, behind the scenes story), but there is NO denying his talent. Anyone trying to do that just makes themself look foolish. He is truly deserving of the recognition he's currently getting. And to suggest he "liked" being a superstar completely goes against his actions. He hated the fishbowl and that was no secret. He also has moved off into obscurity vs sticking on the scene flogging himself, which also proves his desire for privacy and to simply lead his life. Nothing wrong with that.....
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#226 poetica

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:10 PM

Didn't see it posted, so thought I'd share an interesting article I read this morning:

The problem with Pavel is really our problem. He was just being himself. We wanted him to be more.

Fourteen years after holding out on the Vancouver Canucks to force a trade, Pavel Bure’s impact here is reflected by his first-name recognition. Say "Pavel" on Canada’s West Coast and everyone knows who you mean.

The Russian Rocket. Fabulous player. Shame about the person. Wish he’d stayed longer. Or not.
One of the most prolific goal-scorers in National Hockey League history, Bure will be inducted Monday into the Hockey Hall of Fame in Toronto despite a career shortened by knee injuries.

Bure failed a physical in 2003 and retired as a New York Ranger at age 32. He finished with 437 goals in 702 games for a strike rate of .623 that is third all-time behind only Mike Bossy’s .762 and Mario Lemieux’s .754.

Bure played 24 fewer NHL games than Cam Neely and 45 more than Bobby Orr — other Hall-of-Famers whose careers were halted by injuries. Bure’s elevation to official hockey immortality was purely a statistical argument. Did he play enough games and score enough goals to qualify for the Hall of Fame? The selection committee, co-chaired by former Canuck coach and general manager Pat Quinn, decided Bure deserved induction this year alongside Joe Sakic, Mats Sundin and Adam Oates.

It’s a sparkling class.

Bure’s story is being retold in various places: the Canucks’ heist of Bure in the sixth round of the 1989 draft (after the team picked Brett Hauer, before they chose Jim Revenberg) due to head scout Mike Penny’s savvy homework; Bure’s electric debut after showing up on the Canucks’ doorstep in 1991; his explosive speed and five 50-goal seasons and his debilitating battle against injuries.

It’s a nice story, a simple one.

But it’s a little more complicated out here where Bure spent seven seasons, grudgingly as it turned out, and never returned the love and adoration showered upon him in a city where fans have not seen another Canuck like him, before or since.

When the franchise celebrated its 40th anniversary a couple of years ago, they retired Markus Naslund’s jersey and christened a "Ring of Honour" by celebrating four other famous Canucks. Bure was not among them.

Canucks management, led by Bure’s former agent, Mike Gillis, asked the Russian over dinner in Miami if he was interested in being honoured in Vancouver. Bure said no.

You may recall that he once claimed to a reporter, while walking out on the final year of his Canucks’ contract: "I love the fans here and I love the city. I want to spend some time here in the summer. It’s a beautiful place and the fans have treated me really well. I really want to thank them for the seven years they supported me."

But Bure never returned to Vancouver, except as a visiting player. He said this week he hasn’t been to Vancouver in a decade. This isn’t surprising because he spent his summers as a Canuck in Los Angeles. And as for thanking the fans, his reluctance to be honoured by the organization shouts volumes. Given what we know, it would embarrassing to phone Bure now and coax from him a repeat of that expedient pledge from 14 years ago.

Bure had one close friend on the Canucks, Gino Odjick, never invested emotionally in the community and, according to The Province, first asked for a trade in 1993 because the team wouldn’t renegotiate his rookie contract.

He was upset about false reports that he threatened to hold out before the 1994 Stanley Cup Final, was understandably angry the Canucks tried to pay him in Canadian dollars instead of American ones, was frustrated by the team’s refusal to adhere to a lockout clause in his contract, and upset that Quinn wasn’t present when Bure showed up to sign a $24.5-million US, five-year contract that made him one of the five highest-paid hockey players in the world.

And, of course, the team kept promising to trade him and wouldn’t.

"Every time I asked to be traded, they always agreed to," Bure complained to a reporter after his February 1999 move to the Florida Panthers. "Nobody ever said: ‘We’re not going to trade you.’ But they always lied."

Yes, shame on the Canucks.

While adored by fans as he became one of the richest players in hockey, Bure had to suffer through a four-year stretch that saw the Canucks play 10 rounds of playoffs and get within one win of the Stanley Cup. Bure played four playoff games after he left Vancouver.

It was just business to Bure, numbers. Fair enough. But shame on us, then, for loving him and expecting anything more from what turned out to be a one-way relationship.

There was never an issue about Bure’s breathtaking speed and talent and hunger to score goals.
No one who saw him rocket through the Winnipeg Jets on his debut at the Pacific Coliseum on Nov. 5, 1991 will forget it.

"If everybody I’ve met since that game who said they were there were actually in the building, the crowd would have been 250,000," Quinn said this week. "He was lightning in a bottle. He just seemed to have fun out there. He was a hard worker. His training was second to no one. He wanted to be the best scorer and certainly was the best we had on our team."

It seems ironic that Quinn, cast by some as the miserly villain who victimized Bure and helped drive him away, strongly supports the player’s inclusion in the Hall of Fame. He believes Bure wanted out of Vancouver because he was private person who didn’t like the spotlight and wanted to be able to "disappear" when he left the rink.

"I don’t know that he had an affinity for any organization," Quinn said. "I always liked Pavel. I liked his attitude and I liked the way he played. I wish he had opened up a little more (for the public) but that was not who he was. I can’t blame him for that."

Maybe we should all strive to be so generous. The same, of course, could be said for Bure, who has never expressed regret about how things ended in Vancouver nor even hinted at a desire for reconciliation. He seems content with the way things stand.

Bure is the most exciting player and most divisive player in Canucks history. He scored enough goals to earn a place in the Hall of Fame. In Toronto.

But to be honoured here, numbers aren’t enough. When the Canucks retired jerseys belonging to Stan Smyl, Trevor Linden and Markus Naslund — all of them selfless captains — it was the bonds between franchise and player, between player and town, that were as celebrated as lofty statistics.

Bure showed up when he had to, left when he could. He always played hard for his team. But 14 years after Bure left and never looked back, what is there to celebrate about his relationship with the Canucks or the community?

Source: http://www.vancouver...7407/story.html
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Thanks for the memories, Luo! :'(

#227 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:55 PM

*
POPULAR

'Blah, blah, blah, community service!'

I know some media and a few fans here really care about contributions to the community or where a guy spend his summers, but honestly... Did anyone care back when he was scoring all those dazzling goals?

You want to talk about community service? How about him putting all those butts in the seats and giving the community some top-notch entertainment? You know, HIS JOB? You want to talk about legit reasons to honour a player? Ty Cobb: Biggest ahole on earth, but his jersey still hangs up alongside other Tiger greats. Skill talks, and Bure, as vilified as he seems to be here by some, is no freakin. Ty Cobb.

As for where he spends his summers or retirement, um, that's kindof his business. The Sedins, Naslund, Luongo, and almost every player out there doesn't label vancity a summer home, but with Bure that's a problem? Please.

Here's why these people have a problem with Bure: He's Russian.

Face it. If he were Canadian in these exact same circumstances, nobody would have had a problem with him and his jersey might've hung up long ago. If he were Swedish, we'd have to think long and hard. But because he's Russian, well, gee...

Time for this town to grow up a bit. More mature franchises have learned to be classy, take the high road, and respect the players who deserve it. Chicago buried the hatchet with Bobby Hull. Montreal with Roy. Taking the high road is a sign of a mature franchise and sports city.

Doing this will help shed the low-class, riot-inducing, but self-righteous (based on nothing) image that we have around the league. 'Help.'
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#228 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:05 PM

Wondering if IMac himself gave a frack about 'English is not my language' Pavel Bure not engaging with our public enough when he was busy creating an 'easy to remember, but who cares if he even likes it,' Russian Rocket nickname for the dazzling superstar?

Russian Rocket. Kinda says it all doesn't it?

The 'Not Canadian' Rocket that should be forever shunned by those who cannot understand him.
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#229 TRR

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 05:43 PM

The way I see it, there were several reasons to retire the Smyl, Linden, and Naslunds numbers. Length of service, high level of play, community service, long term captains, franchise records. I've only seen one reason to retire Bures. High level of play. I just don't see that as enough of a reason for a guy that only played a little more than 400 games here. You see I'm not ignoring anything. I'm looking at the overall picture of Bure's time here. Other than talent, I don't see much on the checklist.


Your reasoning is poor. Many players have played far more games with the team than Bure has, such as Salo and Snepts and Ohlund. I don't see that as any sort of reasoning for retiring a players number. Bure did far more in his time here than all of those players did combined in their games here. And community service? That has absolutely nothing to do with the team or their play. Dan cloutier played here a while and had a lot of community service, should we retire his number? And long-term captaincy also means little. If you can recall, much of the fan-base would often complain that Naslund was not an adequate captain, yet there his number is in the rafters.

Bure may not have played long here but he did many things that a Canuck has since to do on an extremely consistent level, and was part of one of the greatest teams we have ever put together. You say "other than talent", yet talent is what wins hockey game, nothing else you have mentioned wins hockey games. If you are in game 7 of the stanley cup finals, nothing else matters. Not community service, not how long you've been on the team or been the captain, the bottom line is winning, and if you'd rather put together a team that is more concerned about other issues, then go ahead, but I would ultimately argue that YOU in fact are not looking at the big picture and that hockey is a game of skill and winning, and Bure embodied all of that to a vastly excelled rate.
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#230 poetica

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:37 PM

I don't think anyone can argue that he was a great, exciting player who should be honored for his contributions to the game. I guess the real question just comes down to whether he should be honored as a player or a Canuck specifically. I have a feeling even he would prefer the former.

Is there even a point to honor a man who has said he doesn't want to be honored here?
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Thanks for the memories, Luo! :'(

#231 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:05 PM

Both played more than double the number games here plus there's Pearson, Art Ross and Hart.

I'm not ignoring anything. Actually I have mentioned his 60 goals in this thread....
http://forum.canucks...r/page__st__210


The way I see it, there were several reasons to retire the Smyl, Linden, and Naslunds numbers. Length of service, high level of play, community service, long term captains, franchise records. I've only seen one reason to retire Bures. High level of play. I just don't see that as enough of a reason for a guy that only played a little more than 400 games here. You see I'm not ignoring anything. I'm looking at the overall picture of Bure's time here. Other than talent, I don't see much on the checklist.


- Best player we have ever had.

- Perhaps saved our Franchise.

- Only Calder Trophy winner we have had.

- Only player we have ever had to score 60 Goals (Not to mention he did it twice)

- The First Superstar we have ever had.

- 1st True Canuck inducted into the HHOF, Sundin doesn't count, Neely doesn't count, Messier doesn't really count (His time here didn't really add to his HHOF status). Please Correct me if I am wrong but I do believe that he is the first.

- He was apart of the leadership, and loved the city, it's not like he was just collecting his money and that's why he played here, obviously that's part of it but it is also because he loved playing here and loved the fans.

- He's a generational player, someone that doesn't come around often, and a player you are lucky to have.

- (This one is important) He inspired a ton of new hockey fans, yes it is Vancouver but many many more people came to love this game & this team because of him, he's the reason they became fans.

- He saved our Franchise: (I explained it better in another thread a few months back)

Reitred, without him our Franchise could have potentially folded.

Pat Quinn just made a great point on the team 1040, and he was talking about how our team coming out of the late 80's were really struggling/both on the ice and as a franchise, only drawing 7'000 people on average.

That young group of Linden, McLean, Adams and others really pulled this franchise from the brink and Bure was the biggest piece of them all, he gave us that big star and put us on the map.

It's possible that our franchise wouldn't be where it is without him, we could have turned out to be like Winnipeg and ended up losing our team halfway through the 90's without Pavel.

His Number should be up in the rafters.



And Finally:

Does it not make sense to honor the best player you have ever had in the history of your franchise, who is a Hockey Hall of Famer that is most recognized with your franchise, and that played most of his hall of fame career in your city, helped attract fans long term to your organization and brought the franchise stability and legitimized it as one of the better organizations in the league with the highest honor possible?

Does it not make sense to have to best player you have ever had in the history of your franchise who did all of that stuff, honoured with his Jersey going up in the Rafters? I think so.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 13 November 2012 - 09:06 PM.

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#232 Baggins

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:38 PM

- Best player we have ever had.

- Perhaps saved our Franchise.

- Only Calder Trophy winner we have had.

- Only player we have ever had to score 60 Goals (Not to mention he did it twice)

- The First Superstar we have ever had.

- 1st True Canuck inducted into the HHOF, Sundin doesn't count, Neely doesn't count, Messier doesn't really count (His time here didn't really add to his HHOF status). Please Correct me if I am wrong but I do believe that he is the first.

- He was apart of the leadership, and loved the city, it's not like he was just collecting his money and that's why he played here, obviously that's part of it but it is also because he loved playing here and loved the fans.

- He's a generational player, someone that doesn't come around often, and a player you are lucky to have.

- (This one is important) He inspired a ton of new hockey fans, yes it is Vancouver but many many more people came to love this game & this team because of him, he's the reason they became fans.

- He saved our Franchise: (I explained it better in another thread a few months back)




And Finally:

Does it not make sense to honor the best player you have ever had in the history of your franchise, who is a Hockey Hall of Famer that is most recognized with your franchise, and that played most of his hall of fame career in your city, helped attract fans long term to your organization and brought the franchise stability and legitimized it as one of the better organizations in the league with the highest honor possible?

Does it not make sense to have to best player you have ever had in the history of your franchise who did all of that stuff, honoured with his Jersey going up in the Rafters? I think so.


You'll have a tough time convincing anybody but the blind with the "saving the franchise" ntion. Attendance took a slight increase when he arrived and declined evry year untill GM place opened. A shiney new arena drew a big croud but again attendnce declined every year until Naslund became captain. If anything it was Naslund that saved this franchise as the year before he became captain there was talk about moving it elsewhere.

Here's a link to Canuck attendance.
http://www.hockeydb....ph.php?tmi=8756



Average Canuck attendance per game:
89/90 15417
90/91 15150
91/92 15768 Bure joins team
92/93 15418
93/94 15140
94/95 13920
95/96 17796 GM Place opens
96/97 17320
97/98 16957
98/99 15802 Bure sits out
99/00 14641 Messier's last year
00/01 17026 Naslund takes over as captain to start the season
01/02 17712
02/03 18500 Sell out streak begins in November

Now who really saved the franchise?

Edited by Baggins, 13 November 2012 - 10:59 PM.

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#233 Baggins

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:41 PM

Your reasoning is poor. Many players have played far more games with the team than Bure has, such as Salo and Snepts and Ohlund. I don't see that as any sort of reasoning for retiring a players number. Bure did far more in his time here than all of those players did combined in their games here. And community service? That has absolutely nothing to do with the team or their play. Dan cloutier played here a while and had a lot of community service, should we retire his number? And long-term captaincy also means little. If you can recall, much of the fan-base would often complain that Naslund was not an adequate captain, yet there his number is in the rafters.

Bure may not have played long here but he did many things that a Canuck has since to do on an extremely consistent level, and was part of one of the greatest teams we have ever put together. You say "other than talent", yet talent is what wins hockey game, nothing else you have mentioned wins hockey games. If you are in game 7 of the stanley cup finals, nothing else matters. Not community service, not how long you've been on the team or been the captain, the bottom line is winning, and if you'd rather put together a team that is more concerned about other issues, then go ahead, but I would ultimately argue that YOU in fact are not looking at the big picture and that hockey is a game of skill and winning, and Bure embodied all of that to a vastly excelled rate.


Length of service is one factor. Just as community service is one factor. For a number retirement there should be several factors checked off. I simply don't believe Bure has enough check marks. The most glaring being games played here.
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#234 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:03 PM

You'll have a tough time convincing anybody but the blind with the "saving the franchise" ntion. Attendance took a slight increase when he arrived and declined evry year untill GM place opened. A shiney new arena drew a big croud but again attendnce declined every year until Naslund became captain. If anything it was Naslund that saved this franchise as the year before he became captain there was talk about moving it elsewhere.

Here's a link to Canuck attendance.
http://www.hockeydb....ph.php?tmi=8756


Boy our Attendance was a bumpy road.

I'm just expanding on what Quinn said, I share his opinion that he was a huge factor in the team being able to make it throught those tough years.

Imagine if Bure was never here, the Attendence may have just plummeted earlier and there would have been nothing to atleast keep it up enough to last through the tough financial times.

Oh and BTW you can give the credit to GM Place for bolstering our attendence, but do you think we would have been able to get that Arena put up without a superstar like Bure? ;)

Highly unlikely. So that just goes right back to Bure.


And aside from this one point of many I made, I feel many of the other's including his impact on people becoming fans (which is still felt today) and being the best player we have ever had are 2 great reason's to add onto why #10 should be raised.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 13 November 2012 - 11:04 PM.

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#235 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:20 PM

'Blah, blah, blah, community service!'

I know some media and a few fans here really care about contributions to the community or where a guy spend his summers, but honestly... Did anyone care back when he was scoring all those dazzling goals?

You want to talk about community service? How about him putting all those butts in the seats and giving the community some top-notch entertainment? You know, HIS JOB? You want to talk about legit reasons to honour a player? Ty Cobb: Biggest ahole on earth, but his jersey still hangs up alongside other Tiger greats. Skill talks, and Bure, as vilified as he seems to be here by some, is no freakin. Ty Cobb.

As for where he spends his summers or retirement, um, that's kindof his business. The Sedins, Naslund, Luongo, and almost every player out there doesn't label vancity a summer home, but with Bure that's a problem? Please.

Here's why these people have a problem with Bure: He's Russian.

Face it. If he were Canadian in these exact same circumstances, nobody would have had a problem with him and his jersey might've hung up long ago. If he were Swedish, we'd have to think long and hard. But because he's Russian, well, gee...

Time for this town to grow up a bit. More mature franchises have learned to be classy, take the high road, and respect the players who deserve it. Chicago buried the hatchet with Bobby Hull. Montreal with Roy. Taking the high road is a sign of a mature franchise and sports city.

Doing this will help shed the low-class, riot-inducing, but self-righteous (based on nothing) image that we have around the league. 'Help.'


Great post, one of the best I have seen in awhile.

+1.
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#236 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:33 PM

If length of service is a factor, then i need to bring up Pat Lafontaine again. His jersey hangs up in Buffalo, yet he played and accomplished less for Buffalo than what Bure did for us.

Yes, you can say that what's good enough for the Sabres shouldn't be good enough for us, but what is that based on? Buffalo is our sister franchise, both are cupless, both have a persecution complex, and both have a group of insane hockey knowledgable fans. The teams are indeed comparable. And that reflects in the jersey retirement standards.

Buffalo has six jerseys hanging up. The entire French connection line, Danny Gare, Tim Horton (who played only two seasons for them) and Lafontaine. Did community service play a role in any of those retired jerseys? No. Did length of service play a role? For two out of six, no. So what were the common factors in determining who got their names hung up?

Factor one: They were all great players.
Factor two: They were all players who should have been honoured for their greatness.
Factor three: They were all players who united the city in praise during their great years played in that city.

The exception in Buffalo's case is Tim Horton, who is similar to the Ray Bourque in Colorado retirement.

You'll find that while length of service, games played, is a requirement, it is not a major one compared to the three listed above. Hence, the Lafontaine jersey hanging up in Buffalo.

You'll also find that while community service, a long-standing myth standard for greatness in Vancouver, is not a typical measurement for greatness for any franchise in any sport. While it's a bonus if he's a really nice guy, if he fits in the more important criteria for greatness in that franchise, then he should very well be honoured by that franchise. And honestly, the community service aspect is something for us to say in self-serving pride while we celebrate the so-so numbers that we already hung up. It's a factor, sure, but not an important one in a franchise who is setting the standard for greatness higher with every passing season.

Bure is a hall of famer, unlike any of our other retired jersey names. He is one of the best scorers of all time. Bure owns enough frachise records to be considered a great Canuck. Perhaps some of those records won't be broken. He brought the city together while we admired with awe. Before Bure: So-so attendance. After Bure: Sellouts. It was Linden's team, yes, but we were all watching Bure.

This player deserves our respect and we should have #10 retired to show this respect. Cheers.
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#237 Baggins

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:14 AM

Boy our Attendance was a bumpy road.

I'm just expanding on what Quinn said, I share his opinion that he was a huge factor in the team being able to make it throught those tough years.

Imagine if Bure was never here, the Attendence may have just plummeted earlier and there would have been nothing to atleast keep it up enough to last through the tough financial times.

Oh and BTW you can give the credit to GM Place for bolstering our attendence, but do you think we would have been able to get that Arena put up without a superstar like Bure? ;)

Highly unlikely. So that just goes right back to Bure.


And aside from this one point of many I made, I feel many of the other's including his impact on people becoming fans (which is still felt today) and being the best player we have ever had are 2 great reason's to add onto why #10 should be raised.


Personally I think the return of the fans had more to do with Linden. Notice the large jump in attendance the season following Linden finishing second in rookie of the year honors to Leetch. Or perhaps making it back into the playoffs Lindens rookie season. But the fact is, the fans came back before Bure was here.

GM Place was in the planning stages before Bure ever stepped on the ice here. Although it would benefit the Canucks, it had more to do with Griffiths desire to bring in an NBA franchise. To do that he needed the new arena. His desire to be a bigger fish in the sports pond ultimately cost him the Canucks franchise. Griffiths lobbied the Provincial government for some time for financial assistance to build GM Place. When that failed he turned to the city for assistance which also failed. Then he lobbied both for tax breaks which was also declined. He then had to turn to private financing and went heavily into debt.

Every generation from the very beginning has a player that impacted their becoming a fan. Not so sure you can use that as a reason to retire a players number.
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#238 Riviera82

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:14 AM

I don't think anyone can argue that he was a great, exciting player who should be honored for his contributions to the game. I guess the real question just comes down to whether he should be honored as a player or a Canuck specifically. I have a feeling even he would prefer the former.

Is there even a point to honor a man who has said he doesn't want to be honored here?


He doesn't want to be Ring of Honored, and nor should he be, he was far too good for that. As far as I am concerned he belongs in the rafters far more than Smyl or Naslund, not Linden though, I'll never go that far.
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#239 Baggins

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:54 AM

If length of service is a factor, then i need to bring up Pat Lafontaine again. His jersey hangs up in Buffalo, yet he played and accomplished less for Buffalo than what Bure did for us.

Yes, you can say that what's good enough for the Sabres shouldn't be good enough for us, but what is that based on? Buffalo is our sister franchise, both are cupless, both have a persecution complex, and both have a group of insane hockey knowledgable fans. The teams are indeed comparable. And that reflects in the jersey retirement standards.

Buffalo has six jerseys hanging up. The entire French connection line, Danny Gare, Tim Horton (who played only two seasons for them) and Lafontaine. Did community service play a role in any of those retired jerseys? No. Did length of service play a role? For two out of six, no. So what were the common factors in determining who got their names hung up?

Factor one: They were all great players.
Factor two: They were all players who should have been honoured for their greatness.
Factor three: They were all players who united the city in praise during their great years played in that city.

The exception in Buffalo's case is Tim Horton, who is similar to the Ray Bourque in Colorado retirement.

You'll find that while length of service, games played, is a requirement, it is not a major one compared to the three listed above. Hence, the Lafontaine jersey hanging up in Buffalo.

You'll also find that while community service, a long-standing myth standard for greatness in Vancouver, is not a typical measurement for greatness for any franchise in any sport. While it's a bonus if he's a really nice guy, if he fits in the more important criteria for greatness in that franchise, then he should very well be honoured by that franchise. And honestly, the community service aspect is something for us to say in self-serving pride while we celebrate the so-so numbers that we already hung up. It's a factor, sure, but not an important one in a franchise who is setting the standard for greatness higher with every passing season.

Bure is a hall of famer, unlike any of our other retired jersey names. He is one of the best scorers of all time. Bure owns enough frachise records to be considered a great Canuck. Perhaps some of those records won't be broken. He brought the city together while we admired with awe. Before Bure: So-so attendance. After Bure: Sellouts. It was Linden's team, yes, but we were all watching Bure.

This player deserves our respect and we should have #10 retired to show this respect. Cheers.


What a mountain of horse crap.

1 - If your sister is an idiot should you be as well?

Do you actually know whether or not any those players were involved in charity work or are you making assumptions as is the case with the bulk of your post?

Tim Horton should have had his number retired after his death. It's not uncommon for a team to retire a players number when he dies a member of the team. To do it more than 20 years later....seems rather stupid. Btw, Horton never won a cup as a Sabre and Bourque never died an AV. There isn't really much similarity.

LaFontaine I already covered the last time you brought him up.

Gare is probably the best comparable. But again, if your sister is stupid do you have to be? It seems to me 05/06 they were desperate to celebrate something/anything and retired LaFontaine's and Gare's numbers. (an assumption)


Community service has nothing to do with greatness. As I've said I don't know how many times, it's a factor. One of many factors. Just as length of service is a factor. Just as cup victories is a factor. Just as NHL awards is a factor. None of them a guarantee. If a player has multiple factors he may be considered for number retirement. I don't think Bure has enough of the factors. In particular, length of service. To me the only thing that really makes up for length of service is contribution to a cup victory.


Re the bold part:

How can you make that claim when the actual attendance numbers are posted right above for all to see?

You're sounding like that crazy brother Val 'I'll just make it up' Bure...

A fired-up Valeri Bure slammed the Vancouver Canucks and his former agent-turned GM Mike Gillis, calling them “pathetic” for not retiring his brother Pavel Bure’s number.

On Team 1040 to talk about Pavel getting passed over again for the Hockey Hall of Fame, Val took aim at Gillis and ripped the organization for failing to recognize Pavel by retiring his number.

I think Mike Gillis not retiring his number is pathetic, without him they might not have a GM place now,” Valeri said. “The way that Mike Gillis handled himself when the people asked him why Pavel Bure’s jersey is not up he said something like ‘I’ll decide when his jersey goes up’ And I thought who gives you the authority to decide. Who are you? You are an ex-agent who got paid by my brother a lot of money, got paid by a lot of players a lot of money, now those players got you that job and now you’ve got to decide who’s jersey is going up or not. This is just absolutely crazy, crazy talk by him and that’s one of the things that bother me.”

Val also compared his brother to Wayne Gretzky and suggested the Florida Panthers should also retire his number.
http://blogs.theprov...s-are-pathetic/


The fact that he thinks Pavel is comparable to Gretzky shows just how crazy he is.

What Gillis actually said....

Gillis said the club has settled on a set of criteria for retiring a jersey that is very high.

"We don't want to be in the jersey retirement business," said Gillis.

"We want to make sure it's people of the highest character that are bestowed that honour. Markus brings that character, he won the Lester Pearson Award (voted by the players as the NHL's outstanding player), [he was] a great goalscorer, an exciting player and was great in the community, so he had all the attributes we're looking for."

Gillis was also asked about the possibility of bestowing the same honor on former star Pavel Bure, but Gillis would only say all possibilities will be looked at.

http://www2.canada.c...15-1d85750e0a8e


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#240 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:58 AM

The problem is, of course, the Buffalo Sabres aren't idiots. But let's put their collective hockey wisdom aside and trust in the wisdom of Baggins, right? And the wisdom regarding regarding the Lafontaine jersey retirement was what? 'It is a mystery to me' I see. Well, Sherlock, i think i've solved it for you already. See: Three major factors already listed above.

These criteria are very high indeed.


As for who 'saved the franchise', well it was the Arthur Griffiths, of course, who financed the building of GM Place. He took on more than he could handle, bringing in the NBA, etc., but nobody can deny that he was a hero for this town.

However, would GM Place have gotten the go-ahead without a superstar golden ticket onboard? It can be said that GM Place was the house that Bure built. Bure was the highlight reel. He was the reason people around the league went to Canuck road games. Hell, he was the Canucks for a significant period of the franchise's history.

Certainly he did as much as Naslund did. It's interesting that some label Naslund a 'team saviour' after the Messier era now when in his prime years he received much of the same criticism as Bure. Not a real leader? Vacant personality? etc. Remember that? When Naslund had his jersey hung up, that opened the door for Bure. Bure had done more for this team in a shorter amount of time than Naslund ever did. Certainly that should be respected and honoured with a jersey retirement.
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