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Woman Denied Haircut, Files Human Right Complaint


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#121 Wetcoaster

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:19 PM

Your analysis does not explain a whole laundry list of gender biased organizations or minority only special groups.

And further to this, the fact that this woman is so bent out of shape about this guys arcane religion is what the real humor is.

Who does she have representing this earth shattering lawsuit? ACLU ? Are they doing the pro bono ?

Many of those organizations fall outside the ambit of provincial human rights legislation as private organizations. However when a business offers services to the public at large, then the non-discrimination provisions of the Ontario Human Rights Code are engaged as in the BC case that I cited despite the evangelical Christian couple using their personal residence as a bed and breakfast who refused accommodation to a same sex couple based upon their religious convictions... they were found liable for contravening the BC Human Rights Code.

ACLU??? Why would the American Civil Liberties Union be involved in a case in Ontario?

In the vast majority of these cases before human rights tribunals the complainant often is unrepresented. Much like the Small Claims Court it is designed for persons to represent themselves and there are extensive resources to assist the self-represented. For example in BC:
http://www.bchrt.bc....s/complaint.htm

Also some claimants in BC make use of the Law Students Advice Clinics operated by the law schools at UVic (The Law Centre) and UBC (Law Students' Legal Advice program - LSLAP) that provide free advice and representation in such cases.
http://www.thelawcentre.ca/
http://lslap.bc.ca/main/?help

Ontario provides more assistance to claimants than BC in the form of the Human Rights Legal Support Centre that helps people who file applications with the Tribunal. Services may include advice, support and sometimes legal representation.
http://www.hrlsc.on.ca/en/Default.aspx
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#122 derr12

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:21 PM

Really? Then why can't my son say the Lord's prayer in the public school?

Sorry, this "barbershop" is open to the public.

I said before - all he needs to do is hire a female barber and/or have a sign clearly stating that it is a Men's only barbershop.

Why do I say that? The barber I used to go to in Calgary (before I recently moved back to BC) is a Muslim and that's what he did.


Sure, He could hire a woman stylist. Then it would be come a unisex barber shop. Does he have another chair for this and does his budget allow for this kind of expansion? Would you feel better if he was forced to open another chair and go broke as a result?

Also, your son can pray all he wants. Just like muslims are allowed to prey to mecca. Just dont force my kid to pray with him in an assembly.

Edited by derr12, 16 November 2012 - 02:23 PM.

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#123 Wetcoaster

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:21 PM

Don't businesses have the right to refuse service?
If he just said, "No, I don't want to cut your hair. Find another place."

Would this have been an issue?

It might have been a more difficult case to prove without an explicit admission but it would still be a violation. Many cases are filed based on circumstantial evidence.
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#124 Wetcoaster

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:23 PM

I went into McDonalds and asked for a Prime Rib yesterday. They turned me down! What the hell!
The Keg was across the street so I just went there instead, but still, what an outrage.


They make all sorts of beef products in there I don't see why I couldn't just get the Prime Rib.

Class action suit anyone?


The bottom line is that every business on the planet specializes in specific things. If a business chooses to serve one sort of clientele over another, that should be their prerogative. There is no unhealthy discrimination against women in this case. He gave a religious reason for not cutting the woman's hair, but there are also several other reasons he could have denied her service.

Either way you look at it this is bogus to the power of eleven.

A bogus analogy.

If you had asked for an item on the menu and your were refused service based upon on of the prohibited discriminatory grounds then you would have a complaint.
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#125 Wetcoaster

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:24 PM

an OBGYN once refused to take a look at my junk because I'm not a female. Should I sue?

Nope, no grounds.
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#126 Eh! Team

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:29 PM

So a women goes into a Barber shop full of Muslim men to get a hair cut...... What type of haircut was she expecting to get? If she wins she should just get a free haircut from the guy. Then he should just shave it off.
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#127 Special Ed

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:31 PM

You're probably right. I would most likely be demonized for my efforts.

BUT if I were to switch to the Ladies Gym...the benefits to me would be...

1. Can walk instead of driving. Save $ on gas and less pollution to the environment.
2. Frees up the car so my wife can use it if need be.
3. I'm walking which helps cuz I need to get more exercise (as per doctor's orders).

I see no reason why I should be denied joining the Ladies gym.


They aren't discriminant towards you if they simply lack men's facilities. Not to mention most of those gyms run pregnancy programs.
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#128 Dellins

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:34 PM

barber is for guys salon is for girls!!


But I go to a salon :(
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#129 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

So a women goes into a Barber shop full of Muslim men to get a hair cut...... What type of haircut was she expecting to get?

The "Nick Berg" cut. :bigblush:


They aren't discriminant towards you if they simply lack men's facilities. Not to mention most of those gyms run pregnancy programs.

If you've seen the obesity in men nowadays I'm sure they could benefit highly from those pregnancy programs too. Also understand that much fatness likely has them at testosterone levels near a pregnant woman as well.
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#130 Wetcoaster

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:36 PM

Sorry...I don't believe a female would go to a barbershop for a haircut. She went there to prove a point.

This lawsuit should be thrown out just like that man wanting join a female only gym.

Different issues.

There is what is known in the case law as the public decency continuum where such differentiation may be allowed based upon gender. A gym with facilities and change rooms dedicated to women would fall at the acceptable end while cutting hair would most likely not.

BTW back in the good old days barbers in BC were forbidden to cut women's hair but that changed decades ago.
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#131 canucks_dynasty

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:37 PM

They aren't discriminant towards you if they simply lack men's facilities. Not to mention most of those gyms run pregnancy programs.


I just want to use a treadmill or any other cardio exercise equipment that's close to home. I don't need a shower/bathroom.

Is there any reason for me being denied entry to the Ladies Gym?
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#132 derr12

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:39 PM

It might have been a more difficult case to prove without an explicit admission but it would still be a violation. Many cases are filed based on circumstantial evidence.



Probably the proper way to refuse service would have been to say "I lack the skill to cut womens hair and am afraid i would do a poor job, let me refer you to a trusted peer"
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#133 derr12

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:39 PM

But I go to a salon :(


and you have freekin pony's in your sig...
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#134 Wetcoaster

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:41 PM

^


Unless the barbershop says 'unisex' on the front sign, then it is a male barbershop. This is the precident that has been set for decades.

Did we want to reset precedence that 'women's only' fitness clubs now have to allow men? Nope.

This case is absurd and is a prime example of human rights abuse/misuse. I feel for the people with legitimate human rights issues who are not getting this kind of attention.

Historical precedent does not trump statutory law - there are any number of discriminatory practises that existed in the past that have been deemed unlawful.
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#135 Wetcoaster

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:43 PM

Many attitudes I am seeing are showing why Female only gyms are necessary.

And the Ontario Human Rights Code recognizes that:


Restriction of facilities by sex

20. (1) The right under section 1 to equal treatment with respect to services and facilities without discrimination because of sex is not infringed where the use of the services or facilities is restricted to persons of the same sex on the ground of public decency.

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#136 derr12

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:43 PM

The "Nick Berg" cut. :bigblush:


If you've seen the obesity in men nowadays I'm sure they could benefit highly from those pregnancy programs too. Also understand that much fatness likely has them at testosterone levels near a pregnant woman as well.


Thats not funny...


also, I'm not fat, Im sympathy Bloating for my pregnant wife you insensitive clod!

Edited by derr12, 16 November 2012 - 03:23 PM.

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#137 Special Ed

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:46 PM

I just want to use a treadmill or any other cardio exercise equipment that's close to home. I don't need a shower/bathroom.

Is there any reason for me being denied entry to the Ladies Gym?


We would more than likely need to see the membership agreement first before coming to that conclusion. There could be any number of legitimate reasons for you to not access a female gym. Some of which I have already mentioned. As well I don't believe the gym would be required to alter their agreement to suit your need of using 'only a treadmill'.

Edited by Special Ed, 16 November 2012 - 02:48 PM.

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#138 goalie13

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:48 PM

Why do I say that? The barber I used to go to in Calgary (before I recently moved back to BC) is a Muslim and that's what he did.


By chance was your barber on High Street in MacKenzie Towne?
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#139 Wetcoaster

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:52 PM

If this women is successful in winning her lawsuit and gets $$ out of it. I'll be wanting to join a Ladies only gym that is only a 5 minute walk away from my place instead of a Steve Nash Fitness Club (that I currently go to) that is a 5 minute drive from my place.

Prices are about the same but the Ladies Gym is close and in walking distance.

Fair is fair.

Good luck. That issue has been dealt with and under the public decency continuum it has been determined to be an acceptable restriction.

In BC per our Human Rights Code

Discrimination in accommodation, service and facility


8 (1) A person must not, without a bona fide and reasonable justification,

(a) deny to a person or class of persons any accommodation, service or facility customarily available to the public, or

(b) discriminate against a person or class of persons regarding any accommodation, service or facility customarily available to the public

because of the race, colour, ancestry, place of origin, religion, marital status, family status, physical or mental disability, sex, sexual orientation or age of that person or class of persons.


(2) A person does not contravene this section by discriminating

(a) on the basis of sex, if the discrimination relates to the maintenance of public decency...


In Ontario:

Restriction of facilities by sex


20. (1) The right under section 1 to equal treatment with respect to services and facilities without discrimination because of sex is not infringed where the use of the services or facilities is restricted to persons of the same sex on the ground of public decency.

Edited by Wetcoaster, 16 November 2012 - 02:53 PM.

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#140 Wetcoaster

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:55 PM

I think the real issue here should be that the courts are actually going to take this case.
What a waste of time and money.

These types of cases are handled by a specialized quasi-judicial tribunal, not the courts per se.
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#141 Wetcoaster

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:56 PM

You're probably right. I would most likely be demonized for my efforts.

BUT if I were to switch to the Ladies Gym...the benefits to me would be...

1. Can walk instead of driving. Save $ on gas and less pollution to the environment.
2. Frees up the car so my wife can use it if need be.
3. I'm walking which helps cuz I need to get more exercise (as per doctor's orders).

I see no reason why I should be denied joining the Ladies gym.

Other than the law and human rights tribunal decisions on this issue?
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#142 Wetcoaster

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:58 PM

I just want to use a treadmill or any other cardio exercise equipment that's close to home. I don't need a shower/bathroom.

Is there any reason for me being denied entry to the Ladies Gym?

Yes.
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#143 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:01 PM

Here's a prime example of how these civil rights arguments pan out: Common sense takes a back seat while the lawyers cash in.

Are women's-only gyms guilty of discrimination?

The idea of a women only gym seems innocent enough. After all, many women may feel more comfortable exercising in a gym where there are no men around. In a women only gym, they would be more likely to give and receive open advice on their health condition and their workout plan. With women-centric trainers, females could likely get better advice as well as have options for activities that may not be available in co-ed gyms. There are also religious factors to consider. Some women are simply prohibited to expose too much of their bodies to men.

But are women only gyms guilty of discrimination?

A women only gym means that no men are allowed. Period. No questions asked, right? There have been cases where men have tried to joining a women only gym and sued when they were denied access. There might be some question as to why a man would want to join a women only gym; whether his intentions are to simply be disruptive or because of some ulterior motive. However, there may very well be a good reason for a man to want to join a women only gym. It could be that there are no other facilities in his local area or region. It could be that the particular women only club meets with the man’s health requirements.

Despite the growing popularity of women only clubs, there are a handful of lawsuits that claim these clubs are discriminatory. In 2000, the Alaskan Human Rights Commission–at the behest of a disgruntled man–made an attempt to ban gender only health clubs. However, the result of that backfired when the Alaskan legislature made it legal for gender discrimination in Alaskan health clubs.

More recently, there was a case in 2005 where a civil rights group sued a women only club in Santa Rosa for potentially refusing entry of one man. It turned out that the women only gym had already been told to make changes to accommodate men in 2004, but had failed to do so. This refusal led to the 2005 case being brought up and consequently enforced.

What followed were successful lawsuits against women only gyms in Minnesota, Wisconsin, California and Orange County. Some of these cases were won on the premise that men were not only denied access to work out at the clubs but also because they were also denied employment. In a case against Women’s Workout World in Chicago, not only were men finally allowed to work at the gym, but the ones who were turned down were paid $30,000 in damages. In 1997, a lawsuit against a Massachusetts health club, Healthworks Fitness Center, ruled that the club could not exclude men.

And despite the small number of men opposed to women only health clubs, you would be surprised to find that they have actually gotten some support from NOW (National Organization for Women) who object to any law they feel is permitting discrimination.

Due to the amount of protests from angry women regarding rulings in favor of men, many states have passed legislation to permit single-sex health clubs that benefit both sexes. These states are Alaska, Colorado, Hawaii, Illinois, Tennessee and New Jersey. NOW has objected to each of these rulings.

In another twist of events, in 2008 North Carolina sued Peak fitness for actually going from a women only gym to a co-ed gym! In this case, Peak fitness closed its women only Arboretum gym and notified members that they could use other Peak fitness facilities. Peak fitness would not release the contracts of those women who didn’t want to be forced to go to a co-ed gym. The state of North Carolina argued that Peak should have released those women from their contracts. The final ruling was that Peak fitness could not continue to take money from former Arboretum members without permission.

There are many opinions on the issue of women only gyms. The general feeling from most people is that it is fine to have women only gyms as long as there can be men only gyms as well. After all, it is true that men act differently when around only men, and so it only seems right to have a place where a man can work out comfortably without women present.

But for many women’s rights advocates, women only gyms and men only gyms open up the door for further discrimination against women in other areas. Many activist groups claim this could actually be a step back for women’s rights.


I have a dream. I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men and women are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the streets of Toronto a woman can get a bad haircut in a men's barbershop even though there are perfectly suitable unisex barbershops a short walking distance away.

I have a dream that one day even the province of Ontario, a province sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of bad haircuts given to women by unstylish, men's-only barbers.

I have a dream that my two little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged as being either male or female, as that very determination is discrimitory.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, over in TO, with its vicious religious intolerance, with a former Prime Minister of Canada devilishly visiting a traditional men's-only barbershop owned by Muslims, with it's blatant sexual discrimination cases, that one day little girls and little boys will all be able to have the same flowbee-style haircuts as the honourable Faith McGregor.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day every mullet be chopped, every 80's-style puff be trimmed, all the makeup taken off, and those neato hairsprayed wavy curls be forced straight, and the glory of class action lawsuits shall be revealed, and all money shall go to the lawyers.

This is my nightmare.
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#144 Heretic

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:06 PM

By chance was your barber on High Street in MacKenzie Towne?


Nope - downtown in Scotia Plaza.
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#145 Wetcoaster

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:07 PM

Here's a prime example of how these civil rights arguments pan out: Common sense takes a back seat while the lawyers cash in.


I have a dream. I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men and women are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the streets of Toronto a woman can get a bad haircut in a men's barbershop even though there are perfectly suitable unisex barbershops a short walking distance away.

I have a dream that one day even the province of Ontario, a province sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of bad haircuts given to women by unstylish, men's-only barbers.

I have a dream that my two little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged as being either male or female, as that very determination is discrimitory.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, over in TO, with its vicious religious intolerance, with a former Prime Minister of Canada devilishly visiting a traditional men's-only barbershop owned by Muslims, with it's blatant sexual discrimination cases, that one day little girls and little boys will all be able to have the same flowbee-style haircuts as the honourable Faith McGregor.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day every mullet be chopped, every 80's-style puff be trimmed, all the makeup taken off, and those neato hairsprayed wavy curls be forced straight, and the glory of class action lawsuits shall be revealed, and all money shall go to the lawyers.

This is my nightmare.

Dream on. The issue of women-only gyms has been dealt with under our laws and by our specialized quasi-judicial tribunals.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

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#146 derr12

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:39 PM

Exactly - thanks for proving my point.


I dont see how i proved your point. I basically called you a bigot for telling this guy to go back to africa *cough* wherever the hell he's from so that there arent uppity white people trying to force him to do something his faith does not permit.
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#147 Langdon Algur

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:42 PM

Many of those organizations fall outside the ambit of provincial human rights legislation as private organizations.  However when a business offers services to the public at large, then the non-discrimination provisions of the Ontario Human Rights Code are engaged as in the BC case that I cited despite the evangelical Christian couple using their personal residence as a bed and breakfast who refused accommodation to a same sex couple based upon their religious convictions... they were found liable for contravening the BC Human Rights Code.

ACLU???  Why would the American Civil Liberties Union be involved in a case in Ontario?

In the vast majority of these cases before human rights tribunals the complainant often is unrepresented.  Much like the Small Claims Court it is designed for persons to represent themselves and there are extensive resources to assist the self-represented.  For example in BC:
http://www.bchrt.bc....s/complaint.htm

Also some claimants in BC make use of the Law Students Advice Clinics operated by the law schools at UVic (The Law Centre) and UBC (Law Students' Legal Advice program - LSLAP) that provide free advice and representation in such cases.
http://www.thelawcentre.ca/
http://lslap.bc.ca/main/?help

Ontario provides more assistance to claimants than BC in the form of the Human Rights Legal Support Centre that helps people who file applications with the Tribunal. Services may include advice, support and sometimes legal representation.
http://www.hrlsc.on.ca/en/Default.aspx


Isn't freedom of religion also protected in the Charter? The service is available to the women elsewhere, but cutting her hair would violate the mans religious beliefs.
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#148 Wolfman Jack

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:54 PM

So a women goes into a Barber shop full of Muslim men to get a hair cut...... What type of haircut was she expecting to get? If she wins she should just get a free haircut from the guy. Then he should just shave it off.

If this barber shop only has Muslim men as barbers perhaps its hiring practices should be investigated.
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#149 Wetcoaster

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:54 PM

Isn't freedom of religion also protected in the Charter? The service is available to the women elsewhere, but cutting her hair would violate the mans religious beliefs.

The Charter applies to government breaches of a person's rights. Commercial and private discrimination are covered by human rights codes
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#150 elvis15

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 04:00 PM

This thread is just more proof that common sense is not so common.

Some people here are being deliberately literal in supporting her right to be able to request a haircut at a barbershop, which anyone with any sense would suggest means they at least specialize in men's haircuts and the related services. Unless as Deb suggested earlier this was the only place in town to get a haircut (which avlanch clearly showed it wasn't), I would think it was

For her to deliberately pick that spot for a haircut says one of two things: she's not smart enough to make the distinction and doesn't care about her hair since the barber likely won't be proficient in her hairstyle, or she never actually wanted a haircut but was actually looking to prove a point in the interest of women's rights - or at least equal rights to services. Either way that is just another reason for anyone outside of North America to lump Canadians in with Americans, as (right or wrong) Americans are often seen as people ignorant to modern views and sensibility as well as being overly litigious to make money on something frivolous.

Perhaps the owner had wanted to cut hair all his life while continuing to be a devout Muslim so his only choice was to open a barbershop with the idea that people would have enough sense to realize he wouldn't be trained to cut women's hair (or even that he'd have trouble with men who wanted non-traditional men's haircuts).

There is a large difference between discrimination (certainly public transportation would require equal opportunity for passengers since they are the only service offered of that kind and require no extra skills to complete for all people wishing to do so in the case where Rosa Parks was brought up) and this case, although I agree the line is not often so obvious. While the man certainly had the reason of his religion (and religious freedom is protected within reason) it would also be reasonable to assume he wouldn't have the skill necessary to cut women's hair, and reasonable to assume she would have known that prior to entering the barbershop.

________________________

Here's a completely different view of the situation, perhaps she just wanted to get her haircut for cheaper, in which case she should be suing the salons in the area for charging more for women's haircuts. There you go Faith, another lawsuit for you to make you feel better.

It costs a lot to look cheap, and even more to look expensive - if you’re a woman.

Items such as deodorant, disposable razors and haircuts routinely cost more for women than they do for men.

When California banned "gender pricing" in 1994, it found women paid more than $1200 in extra costs and fees each year. But what is banned there is accepted in New Zealand.

Consumer NZ chief executive Sue Chetwin says it is "without doubt" discrimination.

"The price is based on whether you’re a man or a woman. There’s no excuse ... but what can you do?"

At a Wellington drycleaners a man’s business shirt costs $7 to launder, while women pay $13 for a similar garment. Aucklanders are better off, with the service costing men $6.90 and women $9.50.

The businesses spoken to said women’s blouses could not be processed by their machines, and required more hand-pressing - standard industry practice.

Hairdressing salons in Wellington charge women about $20 more for a haircut than men, regardless of style and length, or the time taken.

"These days, men do many of the things women do with their hair, so why is there that discrimination?" Chetwin asked.

One salon charged women from $75 to $107 for a cut and blowdry, and men from $59 to $79. Another charged women from $85 to $130 for a cut and style, but men only $75 to $90, and a third $62 for a woman and $44 for a man.

One hairdresser said an hour was allocated for women’s appointments, but only 30 minutes for men, although that did not meet all their clients’ needs.

"We have ladies who take us only half an hour because they’ve got short hair, so we just charge them for a guy’s cut. But in other cases, if we’ve booked out the full hour, there’s nothing we can do with that extra time, so we charge them $85. It is a bit of an issue."

She had never considered unisex prices for short, medium and long cuts. "It’s not about how much you take off, it takes as much time to do a short cut as a long one."

But some consumers object to prices determined by their gender. Julia Hollingsworth, 22, said she was charged women’s prices even when she asked for her hair to be cut like a boy’s, coughing up $80 for trims to maintain her pixie cut when she was a university student.

"I’d get charged the same as if I had really long hair, but it was being cut to the length of the average man’s."

Men's barber Brendan Blake said women were simply prepared to pay more. "I'm in the wrong trade."


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