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Vancouver Canucks: Anti-WHL?


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#31 n00bxQb

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:10 AM

Hodgson was the consensus BPA at the time ...

Maybe you should chip in to help get the Canucks a time machine so they'll know better next time ...
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#32 Common sense

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:44 AM

Ahh the gift of hindsight. Let me know what next week's lottery numbers are, will ya?
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#33 King of the ES

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:50 AM

Ahh the gift of hindsight. Let me know what next week's lottery numbers are, will ya?


0 WHL players taken in the last 4 drafts.

That's quite the coincidence.
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#34 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:05 PM

Even better than this would be to go through the draft and see what could have been done better. Who could the Canucks have gotten from the WHL that was better than what he got? I'd be more interested to see what people thought about that.

I mean obviously there are players that outperform their draft position so one would hope people would take that into consideration. Pretend it's draft day of each year...who do you pick that was still available instead of the choices made by the Canucks team.

Clearly the Canucks aren't anti-WHL; and to suggest that is a little ridiculous. They simply haven't drafted much out of it.
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#35 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:16 PM

Even better than this would be to go through the draft and see what could have been done better. Who could the Canucks have gotten from the WHL that was better than what he got? I'd be more interested to see what people thought about that.

I mean obviously there are players that outperform their draft position so one would hope people would take that into consideration. Pretend it's draft day of each year...who do you pick that was still available instead of the choices made by the Canucks team.

Clearly the Canucks aren't anti-WHL; and to suggest that is a little ridiculous. They simply haven't drafted much out of it.


Jamie Benn is most notable to me, and he was out of the BCHL, taken in the 5th round 07 by Dallas. He wasn't on a lot of teams radars, but he was big and had the stats to go a long with it, should have taken the shot.

As per WHLers, the first big stand out is taking Kyle Beach ahead of Hodgson, and we all know Hodgson is the definitive better pick. In 09, could have taken Carter Ashton over Schroeder, but to be honest Ashton has yet to salvage a point at the NHL level. The 2010 pick was traded, could have taken Howden out of the WHL, but from what I understand Gillis' target was Tinordi at that draft. In 11', we could have taken Ty Rattie out of the whl over Jensen, but we went with the bigger power forward. Gaunce this past year was taken ahead of Sissons, Gaunce was the better pick imo.

As you can see I only did 1st rounders, as ES seems to think later rounds are irrelevant. All the picks are defensible in as much as we took the best player available. I for one wouldn't take Ashton over Schroeder, nor Beach over Hodgson, or Sissons over Gaunce, I believe these are the right picks. Ty Rattie is going to be an excellent forward, but Jensen is already tearing up the SEL, so both could turn into dynamic forwards. Time will tell, but as far as I'm concerned there has yet to be a loss, when we could have taken a WHL player.
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#36 Jägermeister

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:27 PM

K.Conn Played for the Giants for a year. Or was it just a figment of my imagination. Tie goes to the runner.
I think we need to find the late round utility player from the Dub. The Canucks haven't done a very good job of that.


Seriously though, Dan Russel has mentioned this countless times. The Canucks need defensemen and the Kelowna Rockets are a "defensemen factory" (Russel's term).
I know Edler is a WHL guy and from the Rockets, but why the hell dont the Canucks draft more of these guys? Forwards and D-men. We have missed out on a lot of really good players.


Edler and Connauton both joined the WHL after being drafted.
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#37 StevenStamkos

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:09 PM

0 WHL players taken in the last 4 drafts.

That's quite the coincidence.


0 posts about Kassian when he scores
20+ posts about Kassian when he doesn't

That's quite the coincidence. <_<

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#38 mbal23

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:31 PM

Seriously though, Dan Russel has mentioned this countless times. The Canucks need defensemen and the Kelowna Rockets are a "defensemen factory" (Russel's term).
I know Edler is a WHL guy and from the Rockets, but why the hell dont the Canucks draft more of these guys? Forwards and D-men. We have missed out on a lot of really good players.


Vancouver is considered a d-man factory in the nhl. Since we take crappy d-men (errorhoff) and make them good.
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#39 eretz canucks

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:54 PM

Edler and Connauton both joined the WHL after being drafted.



Didn't gillis ask Cannauton to leave college and cone to the giants who owned is rights?
That shows that Gillis values the dub over sone NCAA conferences and shows that the Canucks are not really anti-whl

The whole not drafting Russians? I think is very smart. The idiot Nonis, traded away lots of picks and used the majority of the rest to draft Russians who turned out ok but would not stay in north amaerica- kublikov, shirokov, koltsov...

Gillis did manage to convince shirokov to come over but drafting Russians is a risk.

Gillis does make some odd picks- Mallet, Honzik, Sauve come to mind but I think in 2 yrs we can make a better judgement in his drafting record.

Tanev
Jensen
Kassian
Cannaton
Lack

should all join the team by then, so it could be impressive or some of these guys could flop.

I am aware Tanev and Lack were signed not drafted.

I am still baffled at times about our prospect management and selection

Whey did Froshaug not come to NA or to any training camps?

Where is That Finnish goalie who was supposed to play got the giants last year? Ilathaji?
Whatever


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#40 CanucksSayEh

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:10 PM

I would like to draft some local players. If it's a close call I would probably lean towards the BC boy, a Vancouver team sporting Vancouver players has a certain pride and nostalgia to it. I like a team that shows loyalty to it's draft picks and home town boys, players seem to return the favor too when contract time comes around. Having a Vancouver born player as captain would be pretty cool, especially if the team went out of it's way to draft him. It's not like we are some random wasteland where talent is few and far between. Obviously im not saying to pass on a much better player because he's foreign, but if it's a toss up, and/or in a later round then look in your own back yard.
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#41 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:21 PM

Lucic comes to mind. Hindsight, blah blah blah.

C'mon, this guy went 50th overall and they probably never even considered the guy let alone try to make a trade up and get him in the second. Not to mention he played down the road every few nights.
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#42 DeNiro

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:31 PM

Didn't gillis ask Cannauton to leave college and cone to the giants who owned is rights?
That shows that Gillis values the dub over sone NCAA conferences and shows that the Canucks are not really anti-whl


Yep, and he also asked Schroeder to leave the NCAA to play for the Silvertips, but Schroeder decided to stay in college. And based on his development so far, I think he could have used a season in the dub.

We also signed Tochkin as a free agent from the WHL, and have invited numerous WHL players to our training camps.

And then there was Ilahti, who Gillis wanted to come play for the Giants, but his Finnish team wouldn't let him.

So I don't think Gillis is "anti WHL", I just think that better players have been available.

Edited by DeNiro, 21 November 2012 - 03:16 PM.

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#43 Jägermeister

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:54 PM

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing is us picking up some Giant players with our later picks.
When it comes to the 4th or 5th round and later, why not pick a guy who already has fans in the city, and still has time to develop with Don Hay.
Its sad to see hometown favourites like Gallagher (5th round), Tvrdon (4th round), and Kulak (4th round), go by the wayside then develop into players who look like they were a steal at that point of the draft.
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#44 goalie13

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:25 PM

As a Kelowna Rockets fan, I've had the pleasure of seeing Keith, Weber, Myers, Schenn, Edler, Gorges, Hannan, and Souray develop under an amazing Rockets development program. They do an amazing job.


I lived in Kelowna when they first moved to town. Kyle McLaren would have been part of that list as well if he hadn't stuck with the Bruins straight out of the draft.

I don't really count Souray though because he was a trade deadline pickup and only played the balance of that one year in Kelowna. He was outstanding before he got to Kelowna.
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#45 Boudrias

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:38 PM

The Vancouver Canucks have not selected a single WHL player in the draft since 2008, when they selected Prabh Rai and Morgan Clark in the 5th and 7th rounds.

The WHL is known for its different brand of hockey vis-a-vis the OHL and the QMJHL; notably, it's a lot grittier, a lot tougher, a lot more "old time". Not surprisingly, these are characteristics missing from Canuck teams of late.

Too much GM & Coach Eastern influence? Why are they avoiding the WHL?

I feel the pain. Considering Linden and Smyl were the two best players the Canucks ever iced it does make you wonder. You always draft the best available but not drafting WHL goes back past Gillis.
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#46 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:44 PM

Yip; look at Ballard? :P

AV generally finds the right roles for guys relative to their skills and roles the team needs. For example he knew how to use Hodgson but he's not going to replace Hank... (Who is an even better example of putting someone in the right role?). That list has always rewarded your glue guys like Burrows, Hansen, Rypien and Kesler is a more talented version.

D factory? The Canucks have done a nice job of developing Bieksa and Edler who have both handsomely exceeded their draft expectations, Edler making the team ahead of a more acclaimed 1st round pick on D, Bourdon. Looking at history, even guys like Ohlund have ultimately just been effective journeyman who helped our team but did not carry it. Hamhuis and Edler, IMO are probably the best D we have had in the last twenty years (very possible to argue Ohlund over Edler, but there is an extra allure of offensive potential). But where we have Andersson and Connauton (debate ably) and Tanev as a recalmation project all coming along nicely, we also have Ballard, Joslin and Gragnani mowing the lawn outside the factory... and not yet have we ever even seen that true blue chip stud who could actually carry our team (Weber, Doughty, Niedermyer). We're OK, but factory is too generous!

Vancouver is considered a d-man factory in the nhl. Since we take crappy d-men (errorhoff) and make them good.

Vancouver is considered a d-man factory in the nhl. Since we take crappy d-men (errorhoff) and make them good.


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 21 November 2012 - 03:48 PM.

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#47 n00bxQb

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:32 PM

Didn't gillis ask Cannauton to leave college and cone to the giants who owned is rights?
That shows that Gillis values the dub over sone NCAA conferences and shows that the Canucks are not really anti-whl

The whole not drafting Russians? I think is very smart. The idiot Nonis, traded away lots of picks and used the majority of the rest to draft Russians who turned out ok but would not stay in north amaerica- kublikov, shirokov, koltsov...

Gillis did manage to convince shirokov to come over but drafting Russians is a risk.

Gillis does make some odd picks- Mallet, Honzik, Sauve come to mind but I think in 2 yrs we can make a better judgement in his drafting record.

Tanev
Jensen
Kassian
Cannaton
Lack

should all join the team by then, so it could be impressive or some of these guys could flop.

I am aware Tanev and Lack were signed not drafted.

I am still baffled at times about our prospect management and selection

Whey did Froshaug not come to NA or to any training camps?

Where is That Finnish goalie who was supposed to play got the giants last year? Ilathaji?
Whatever

Froshaug and Iilahti weren't signed. Froshaug, I'm not sure the reason, but Iilahti was because his play dropped off significantly after he was drafted. He was beat out by 3 other goaltenders for a spot in the WJC and was demoted to a 2nd tier Finnish league due to poor play. With Lack and Cannata both ahead of him in the prospect depth chart, it didn't make sense to commit a 3 year contract to him.
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#48 canucklehead44

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:26 PM

I think we should take one Kelowna Rocket defenseman every year.


All former Kelowna rockets. We can't do any worse with drafting defenseman. The Canucks have drafted only two NHL defenseman in the last 14 years and one of them happened to be a Kelowna Rocket.
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#49 Dogbyte

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:34 PM

I have to agree somewhat. Although I don't really know what they are doing it appears they are trying to outsmart everyone and use our heavily weighted European scouting influence and then draft college players. I think taking some WHL players instead of these college guys would be wiser. Smarts only count for so much in hockey and WHL guys have so much more character than College players, plus they play more games, against better competition.

And King, Grabner sucks, really? Why do you like these guys that can't play defence to save their lives? Is it because you don't get (negative) points for defence and you can't google that? Not going to rehash that argument though, we've done it to death.
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#50 Hugemanskost

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:49 PM

IMO, it doesn't matter where a player is from if he fits your club's needs.

Also, WHL Alumni Trevor Linden and Stan Smyl were both drafted by the Canucks. 2 captains with 20+ years of service...
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#51 King of the ES

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:45 PM

And King, Grabner sucks, really? Why do you like these guys that can't play defence to save their lives? Is it because you don't get (negative) points for defence and you can't google that? Not going to rehash that argument though, we've done it to death.


He sucks, does he? 35 goals, fastest skater in the NHL at 23 years old.

Let me guess - you're very bullish on Anton Rodin. Am I right?

EDIT: and how do you define "good defence", by the way? Grabner's +13 was tied for tops on the team in 2010-11.

Edited by King of the ES, 21 November 2012 - 06:50 PM.

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#52 eretz canucks

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:06 PM

Lucic signed for 3 years in boston right?
I heard a rumour that he wants to play in Vancouver but I find that hard to believe considering what his family went through herd after the SCF
Did anyone else hear this rumour? I could see him becoming captain here

Edited by eretz canucks, 21 November 2012 - 08:38 PM.

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#53 thehamburglar

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:19 PM

I don't think so, but we should look for D-men. It's what I always heard they produce some of the best defensemen.

But, whatever is the best player available, choose them.
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#54 DeNiro

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:40 AM

He sucks, does he? 35 goals, fastest skater in the NHL at 23 years old.

Let me guess - you're very bullish on Anton Rodin. Am I right?

EDIT: and how do you define "good defence", by the way? Grabner's +13 was tied for tops on the team in 2010-11.


You must have missed his second season where he had 15 less goals and was a team worst -18.

He doesn't suck, but his first season was likely an anomaly.
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#55 Russ

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:44 AM

K.Conn Played for the Giants for a year. Or was it just a figment of my imagination. Tie goes to the runner.


I think we need to find the late round utility player from the Dub. The Canucks haven't done a very good job of that.

He was drafted and then Canucks asked him to come play for the Giants.
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#56 dorrcoq

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:37 PM

Considering Linden and Smyl were the two best players the Canucks ever iced .


Hilarious. Nearly as funny as the guy who takes Dan Russell's comments as gospel. Or the guy who thinks we clearly made a mistake trading Grabner.
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#57 etsen3

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:09 PM

It's weird, but probably just a coincidence. After all the Canucks have convinced guys to play in the dub after they were drafted. (Edler, Connauton etc.)
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#58 King of the ES

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:58 PM

Hilarious. Nearly as funny as the guy who takes Dan Russell's comments as gospel. Or the guy who thinks we clearly made a mistake trading Grabner.


Yeah, because I'd sure rather have Keith Ballard than Michael Grabner, Quinton Howden, and Steve Bernier.

Who wouldn't? Acquisition of the decade.
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#59 DeNiro

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:41 PM

Yeah, because I'd sure rather have Keith Ballard than Michael Grabner, Quinton Howden, and Steve Bernier.

Who wouldn't? Acquisition of the decade.


A player who put up 30 points last season and was a -18, a player who hasn't played in the NHL and likely won't, and a fourth liner that is barely in the NHL...

Say what you want about Ballard, but that trade is looking better and better by the season. At least Ballard provides some solid depth to our blueline. None of those players would be of any value to us right now.

Edited by DeNiro, 22 November 2012 - 09:43 PM.

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#60 King of the ES

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:42 AM

A player who put up 30 points last season and was a -18, a player who hasn't played in the NHL and likely won't, and a fourth liner that is barely in the NHL...


That's still 25 more points than Ballard, while consuming far less cap dollars.

You're saying that you don't think Howden's going to make the NHL?

Say what you want about Ballard, but that trade is looking better and better by the season. At least Ballard provides some solid depth to our blueline. None of those players would be of any value to us right now.


How is it looking better? Keith Ballard is not improving. If the Canucks had any confidence in him, they wouldn't have felt the urgency to rush out and roll the dice on a guy like Jason Garrison. If Ballard's on the team whenever the NHL comes back, he'll still be on the bottom pair, earning $4.25M.

Grabner's scored 54 goals in 2 years on Long Island, and is 25 years old. He also is amongst the fastest skaters in the league. It's unbelievable to me that people think we somehow "won" that deal. Grabner would be our #3 winger, IMO, ahead of both Booth & Raymond.
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