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Man Challenges Vancouver's Ban On Sleeping On The Streets


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#1 DonLever

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:06 PM

A 57 year old man, aided by the Pivot Legal Society, is heading to the courts to challenge Vancouver's ban on sleeping on streets, parks, and public properties.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...ss-lawsuit.html

Clarence Taylor was ticketed several times by police and harassed by police and city officials.
The Pivot lawyers said people should be allowed to sleep on overpasses and boulevards where they would be in no one's way.

Edited by DonLever, 22 November 2012 - 03:10 PM.

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#2 SkeeterHansen

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:07 PM

What a sleeper of a case...
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/=S=/


#3 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:11 PM

“The reality is there is whole swaths of city streets, including under overpasses, boulevards, they're not in anybody's way, they're not causing any obstructions,” said Bernstein. “We feel that, if people feel they'd feel safest sleeping there, they should be able to sleep there legally.”



Yeah streets and overpasses were built to house the homeless.. :rolleyes:

Edited by zaibatsu, 22 November 2012 - 03:12 PM.

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#4 :D

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:16 PM

I hope the bylaw is upheld. I have no sympathy.
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#5 DonLever

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:18 PM

Well, Mayor Robertson said he will end homelessness by 2015. So by that time, there should be no more need to enforce the existing bylaws.
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#6 ronthecivil

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:22 PM

You know what would be nice?

To have pivot legal society stand up for the public at large that gets harassed by homeless people looking for a handout.

Oh, and not having lawyers using their ability to challenge the courts for free to push their own political agenda.
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#7 J.R.

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:24 PM

*
POPULAR

This speaks to a much larger societal problem that should be addressed. Whether people can sleep under overpasses shouldn't be the question. WHY people are having to sleep under overpasses is the question.
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#8 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:29 PM

Well, Mayor Robertson said he will end homelessness by 2015. So by that time, there should be no more need to enforce the existing bylaws.


Here in AUS we have heard simmiliar BS before

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bx0IeQQ7WjI

25 years later

One in eight people living in poverty in Australia: new report

13 October 2012
The Australian Council of Social Service has today released a new report showing poverty in Australia remains a persistent problem with an estimated 2,265,000 people or 12.8% of all people living below the internationally accepted poverty line used to measure financial hardship in wealthy countries.
The report provides the most comprehensive picture of poverty in the nation since 2006 and shows that people who are unemployed, children (especially in lone parent families), and people whose main source of income is social security payments, are the groups most at risk of poverty.
"This report reveals that despite years of unprecedented growth and wealth creation, we have made little ground in combatting the scourge of poverty with 1 in 8 people overall and 1 in 6 children living below the poverty line," said ACOSS CEO, Dr Cassandra Goldie.
"In a wealthy country like Australia, this is simply inexcusable

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 22 November 2012 - 03:30 PM.

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#9 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:31 PM

This speaks to a much larger societal problem that should be addressed. Whether people can sleep under overpasses shouldn't be the question. WHY people are having to sleep under overpasses is the question.

Don't want to work, don't want to put the effort out to get the many handouts they'd be given either. Perpetual victims. I feel sorry only for the mentally unstable, especially if they've done something useful for society and worked, or even served in the military.

Edited by zaibatsu, 22 November 2012 - 03:33 PM.

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#10 ronthecivil

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:33 PM

This speaks to a much larger societal problem that should be addressed. Whether people can sleep under overpasses shouldn't be the question. WHY people are having to sleep under overpasses is the question.


Have to?

We have welfare. It's possible to eek out a meager existence with no job at all.

You could have an infinite amount of social housing but there will always be those that will live on the streets because their neighbors won't tolerate their behavior.
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#11 ronthecivil

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:35 PM

Here in AUS we have heard simmiliar BS before

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bx0IeQQ7WjI

25 years later

One in eight people living in poverty in Australia: new report

13 October 2012
The Australian Council of Social Service has today released a new report showing poverty in Australia remains a persistent problem with an estimated 2,265,000 people or 12.8% of all people living below the internationally accepted poverty line used to measure financial hardship in wealthy countries.
The report provides the most comprehensive picture of poverty in the nation since 2006 and shows that people who are unemployed, children (especially in lone parent families), and people whose main source of income is social security payments, are the groups most at risk of poverty.
"This report reveals that despite years of unprecedented growth and wealth creation, we have made little ground in combatting the scourge of poverty with 1 in 8 people overall and 1 in 6 children living below the poverty line," said ACOSS CEO, Dr Cassandra Goldie.
"In a wealthy country like Australia, this is simply inexcusable


In any society wealthy or not there will be a portion of the population that cares more about themselves than their children such that any amount of money tossed in the parents direction will simply result in more vice for the parents with no benefit to the child.
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#12 Wetcoaster

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:36 PM

The BC Court of Appeal dealt with a similar issue in its 2009 decsion in Victoria (City) v. Adams, 2009 BCCA 563 which involved a Victoria by-law:
http://www.canlii.or...2009bcca563.pdf

That case involved the homeless setting up temporary overnight shelters (not just sleeping in the space). The appeal court ruled that Victoria’s bylaws violated section 7 of the Charter (“life, liberty, and security of the person”). However, the court disagreed with the trial judge’s declaration that the bylaws were arbitrary. According to the Court of Appeal, the bylaws were not arbitrary, but they were overbroad and thus violated the Charter. The bylaws were declared of no force and effect “insofar and only insofar as they apply to prevent homeless people from erecting temporary overnight shelter in parks when the number of homeless people exceeds the number of available shelter beds in the City of Victoria.”
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#13 ronthecivil

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:45 PM

The BC Court of Appeal dealt with a similar issue in its 2009 decsion in Victoria (City) v. Adams, 2009 BCCA 563 which involved a Victoria by-law:
http://www.canlii.or...2009bcca563.pdf

That case involved the homeless setting up temporary overnight shelters (not just sleeping in the space). The appeal court ruled that Victoria’s bylaws violated section 7 of the Charter (“life, liberty, and security of the person”). However, the court disagreed with the trial judge’s declaration that the bylaws were arbitrary. According to the Court of Appeal, the bylaws were not arbitrary, but they were overbroad and thus violated the Charter. The bylaws were declared of no force and effect “insofar and only insofar as they apply to prevent homeless people from erecting temporary overnight shelter in parks when the number of homeless people exceeds the number of available shelter beds in the City of Victoria.”


Kind of ridiculous to expect the city to be able to enforce something that is their mandate (use of the streets/zoning) they must provide a service that is not their responsibility (housing).

Though it makes for a great GVRD strategy. Now that the courts have spoken we can simply offer any homeless people here a free trip and tent to Victoria if they want it. If enough people take us up on the deal then there's no way Victoria will have the ability to provide shelter to everyone and by default they can put up a tent city to their heart's content.
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#14 canucks_dynasty

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:47 PM

Tent City 3.0
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#15 The Bookie

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:55 PM

The BC Court of Appeal dealt with a similar issue in its 2009 decsion in Victoria (City) v. Adams, 2009 BCCA 563 which involved a Victoria by-law:
http://www.canlii.or...2009bcca563.pdf

That case involved the homeless setting up temporary overnight shelters (not just sleeping in the space). The appeal court ruled that Victoria’s bylaws violated section 7 of the Charter (“life, liberty, and security of the person”). However, the court disagreed with the trial judge’s declaration that the bylaws were arbitrary. According to the Court of Appeal, the bylaws were not arbitrary, but they were overbroad and thus violated the Charter. The bylaws were declared of no force and effect “insofar and only insofar as they apply to prevent homeless people from erecting temporary overnight shelter in parks when the number of homeless people exceeds the number of available shelter beds in the City of Victoria.”


This came up just yesterday when VicPD did an AMA on reddit. I think the deal is anyone can sleep on the street, even set up a tent if it's out of the way, but they have to vacate by 7am, which is the time the shelters open for coffee and breakfast.
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#16 J.R.

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:06 PM

Don't want to work, don't want to put the effort out to get the many handouts they'd be given either. Perpetual victims. I feel sorry only for the mentally unstable, especially if they've done something useful for society and worked, or even served in the military.


I'd wager a shiny looney that the vast majority fall in to this category.
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#17 SterlingArcher

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:25 PM

I choose to be homeless, cause I don't like to work. I know not to sleep on overpasses or the streets and so do my homeless colleagues
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#18 ronthecivil

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:35 PM

I'd wager a shiny looney that the vast majority fall in to this category.


What other than re-institutionalizing them (which no doubt would be problematic with the same pivot legal society) could possibly fix this?

Any facility to house them without control over their activities would quickly become a den of misery for all those living there and a blight on the community at large.

Any facility to house them with control over their activities would be rejected as an acceptable alternative.

Money will be channeled to whatever vice was their fancy.
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#19 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:23 PM

Tent City 3.0

Yup. That's where i would first send the people-disposing bulldozers.

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#20 Mainly Mattias

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:11 PM

we foresaw this happening when they closed down riverview to cut costs to fit budgets (or make bonuses/get good public opinion?). didn't matter that they'd offload the social cost to another area which taxpayers would still be responsible for - the police, the ERs and the courts.

mental health care costs just don't garner too much advocacy, publicity or good public opinion.
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#21 ronthecivil

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:29 PM

we foresaw this happening when they closed down riverview to cut costs to fit budgets (or make bonuses/get good public opinion?). didn't matter that they'd offload the social cost to another area which taxpayers would still be responsible for - the police, the ERs and the courts.

mental health care costs just don't garner too much advocacy, publicity or good public opinion.


Ya but pretty sure the lawyers aren't going to simply let us gather them up and put them into Riverview like facilities even if there was a sudden wellspring of money and political will.

So now what?
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#22 Jägermeister

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:37 PM

If I was homeless I would commit petty crimes to I could go to jail.
Free food, free shelter, TV, showers, exercise, and it would give me time to possibly develop a skill that could help me out after I get out of the joint.
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#23 goalie13

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:44 PM

If I was homeless I would commit petty crimes to I could go to jail.
Free food, free shelter, TV, showers, exercise, and it would give me time to possibly develop a skill that could help me out after I get out of the joint.


And possibly get shanked because someone doesn't like they way you looked at them. It's no picnic in there.
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#24 Jägermeister

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:48 PM

And possibly get shanked because someone doesn't like they way you looked at them. It's no picnic in there.


I doubt there are many shankings in a Minimum/Medium Security Canadian Prison.
Might not be a picnic, but it would be preferable to sleeping on the streets in the cold.

Edited by Jägermeister, 22 November 2012 - 06:49 PM.

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#25 SterlingArcher

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:07 PM

And possibly get shanked because someone doesn't like they way you looked at them. It's no picnic in there.


You only get shanked if you walk around acting like you're boss or if you get labeled a snitch. I spent 6 years in a Medium Security Facility in Drumheller, Alberta. If you just mind your own business, it's a breeze. I literally just worked out, ate like a champ and watched tv (HBO). Had a couple people get mad at me for befriending members of another racial profile.
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#26 Wetcoaster

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:53 PM

Ya but pretty sure the lawyers aren't going to simply let us gather them up and put them into Riverview like facilities even if there was a sudden wellspring of money and political will.

So now what?

Nothing to do with lawyers.

Shutting down Riverview had everything to do with cost-cutting and offloading costs - remember "Closer to Home"???

The Mental Health Act already allows for involuntary commitment - the problem is there is insufficient space and resources so they go in and right back out the door again.
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#27 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:20 AM

In any society wealthy or not there will be a portion of the population that cares more about themselves than their children such that any amount of money tossed in the parents direction will simply result in more vice for the parents with no benefit to the child.


In a country that has below 6% unemployment , a massive injection of wealth from our "mining boom" , i consider it a crime that 18% of our children live in poverty .

The point of my original post was that there is a lot of BS rhetoric from politicians !
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#28 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:27 AM

I choose to be homeless, cause I don't like to work. I know not to sleep on overpasses or the streets and so do my homeless colleagues

I choose to be homeless, cause I don't like to work. I know not to sleep on overpasses or the streets and so do my homeless colleagues


If you do not mind me asking , where do you sleep mate .
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#29 Grapefruits

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:31 AM

In a country that has below 6% unemployment , a massive injection of wealth from our "mining boom" , i consider it a crime that 18% of our children live in poverty .

The point of my original post was that there is a lot of BS rhetoric from politicians !


Maybe if parents thought about the cost of raising a child before having it, the % for child poverty wouldn't be so high. I see people all the time that can barely financially support themselves deciding to have children
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#30 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:38 AM

Maybe if parents thought about the cost of raising a child before having it, the % for child poverty wouldn't be so high. I see people all the time that can barely financially support themselves deciding to have children


These sort of people do not constitute nearly 20% of our population .

Stop trying to rationalise a situtation my country should be ashamed of :sadno:

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 23 November 2012 - 01:38 AM.

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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.





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